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Why do some people find rowing difficult, others easy?
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Henry Law
Sep 8, 2012, 12:48:51 PM9/8/12
to
We had a "taster day" at the club, the second in only a few weeks, such
is the demand. I've "coached" lots of people in both sessions, ab
initio, for about 20-30 minutes in stable training boats. Lots of fund,
tremendous interest, and it's good to spend a morning in the company of
people trying something new and, for the most part, really enjoying it.
I'm interested, almost puzzled, by the fact that a few people just "get
it" right from the start, whereas others don't look as if they'll get as
long as their a***s point down.
I get them to rehearse the rowing stroke at the landing stage, just with
one oar while I hold the boat; then off they go. Some of them obviously
appreciate right from the start what happens when the blade goes in out
of square; they understand backing down as soon as you tell them; the
are already correcting their course before you tell them they have to,
everything just looks relaxed and not-too-bad from the off. One of my
pupils, though not the best, really glowed when she said "it feels good
when you get the blades off the water together and the boat glides
forward smoothly and silently". Attagirl!
Then there are others who get nothing, in the whole 30 minutes. Their
blades are stuck in the water every stroke, they're under or over square
without realising; spinning is a ten-minute exercise in patience
because, however hard I try to explain, they persist in pulling instead
of backing, or when they've finished backing they leave the blade in the
water and pull and promptly move the boat back round the other way.
They sit hunched over, with no room for the turn, their body lean is in
the wrong direction ... and so on.
Another interesting thing is that the "naturals" leave me, the would-be
coach, feeling good, whereas the "not as long as your ..." individuals
leave me feeling deflated, disappointed, inadequate. And I've not had a
case as hard as Sully's recent one, not by a long chalk!
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
is the demand. I've "coached" lots of people in both sessions, ab
initio, for about 20-30 minutes in stable training boats. Lots of fund,
tremendous interest, and it's good to spend a morning in the company of
people trying something new and, for the most part, really enjoying it.
I'm interested, almost puzzled, by the fact that a few people just "get
it" right from the start, whereas others don't look as if they'll get as
long as their a***s point down.
I get them to rehearse the rowing stroke at the landing stage, just with
one oar while I hold the boat; then off they go. Some of them obviously
appreciate right from the start what happens when the blade goes in out
of square; they understand backing down as soon as you tell them; the
are already correcting their course before you tell them they have to,
everything just looks relaxed and not-too-bad from the off. One of my
pupils, though not the best, really glowed when she said "it feels good
when you get the blades off the water together and the boat glides
forward smoothly and silently". Attagirl!
Then there are others who get nothing, in the whole 30 minutes. Their
blades are stuck in the water every stroke, they're under or over square
without realising; spinning is a ten-minute exercise in patience
because, however hard I try to explain, they persist in pulling instead
of backing, or when they've finished backing they leave the blade in the
water and pull and promptly move the boat back round the other way.
They sit hunched over, with no room for the turn, their body lean is in
the wrong direction ... and so on.
Another interesting thing is that the "naturals" leave me, the would-be
coach, feeling good, whereas the "not as long as your ..." individuals
leave me feeling deflated, disappointed, inadequate. And I've not had a
case as hard as Sully's recent one, not by a long chalk!
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
sully
Sep 8, 2012, 4:27:36 PM9/8/12
to
The most recent lady was only a disaster at the end.
There was only one other person who was extremely
uncoordinated that bothered me. It was more a matter
of personality than coordination.
Else, the incredible range in people is what is most
attractive to teaching beginners to scull and
why I'll likely do it the rest of my life.
It is most rewarding to me when someone who
is a complete klutz is actually sculling reasonably
well. The naturals don't need me as much, they
can figure so much on their own.
What's most valuable for me is that the
skill I teach is a very small subset of the
whole of sculling, and I have to teach
it repetitively to a million very different
folks, some with language problems,
a number of deaf ppl, blind,
Parkinsens, and as you've
encountered, ppl lacking any motor
skills at all.
I liken this to the 'paint the fence' scene
in the film Karate Kid. While you are
doing a seemingly mindless repetitive
task, and doing it correctly, you are
patterning in an elite skill. Coaching
is a skill like any other, you learn
by focused repetition.
Since I've done this for so many years
my elite teaching chops have improved
immeasurably. I'm much better now
at recognizing whether a fast athletic
sculler really grasps an aspect of his/her
technique, or is covering with their
athleticism.
An example is an athletic sculler who
can get catches in quickly and cleanly
so that the bladework might look pretty
good, but he/she is really not as well
connected as they could be.
I've also learned not to skip steps with
athletes, even if they appear to have
advanced well past those steps.
In initial lessons, the first day after they've
rowed a hundred strokes or more and have
a feel for blade and water, I'll stop them
and set their hands up, just teach the
exact basics of what the hands do on the
handle, feathering, hanging on drive,
riding on recovery, etc. If a natural
appears to have it already, I'll stop them
anyway and explain what they're doing
correctly (you damned prodigy!).
:^)
Again, Henry, congrats and enjoy!
Rebecca Caroe
Sep 11, 2012, 1:31:44 AM9/11/12
to
Thanks both of you for such insights
My ha'penny worth is that I think a lot of the 'natural' aspect boils down to whether, as a child, you were challenged to learn movements and challenges involving your body. it's a bit like playing the game 'twister'. Can you move your leg to a red spot while also keeping your hand on yellow?
A friend of mind set up a programme for young mums called 'kiwi baby' and 3 booklets covered birth to 18 months old. The program taught mothers how to play with their child in a way that challenged their skills at each age level. I remember one game from the oldest book where you sit on the floor, legs spread wide with your child opposite doing the same and roll a ball into the vee of their legs - they return it. Just simple practice handling and anticipating a moving object starts to build skills which later translate into what Henry described.....
I was a klutz at catching and ball skills at school and stopped trying to learn them because i self-destructed (you're no good, so don't try = proves you're no good). At university my friends discovered this and used to amuse themselves by throwing matchboxes at me anywhere (in the pub, in someone's bedroom, on the lawn). And despite myself I found I got quite good at peripheral vision and catching moving matchboxes. I got even better when someone explained that if an object is falling, you need to get your hands underneath it (think of a ball rolling off a table). When I saw that was the solution to preventing the matchbox hitting the ground, I improved further.
Moral of the story is listen to your coaches (they know how to do it) and then get lots of un-judgmental practice in a fun environment. ..... A bit like joining a rowing club!
My ha'penny worth is that I think a lot of the 'natural' aspect boils down to whether, as a child, you were challenged to learn movements and challenges involving your body. it's a bit like playing the game 'twister'. Can you move your leg to a red spot while also keeping your hand on yellow?
A friend of mind set up a programme for young mums called 'kiwi baby' and 3 booklets covered birth to 18 months old. The program taught mothers how to play with their child in a way that challenged their skills at each age level. I remember one game from the oldest book where you sit on the floor, legs spread wide with your child opposite doing the same and roll a ball into the vee of their legs - they return it. Just simple practice handling and anticipating a moving object starts to build skills which later translate into what Henry described.....
I was a klutz at catching and ball skills at school and stopped trying to learn them because i self-destructed (you're no good, so don't try = proves you're no good). At university my friends discovered this and used to amuse themselves by throwing matchboxes at me anywhere (in the pub, in someone's bedroom, on the lawn). And despite myself I found I got quite good at peripheral vision and catching moving matchboxes. I got even better when someone explained that if an object is falling, you need to get your hands underneath it (think of a ball rolling off a table). When I saw that was the solution to preventing the matchbox hitting the ground, I improved further.
Moral of the story is listen to your coaches (they know how to do it) and then get lots of un-judgmental practice in a fun environment. ..... A bit like joining a rowing club!
sully
Sep 11, 2012, 3:05:15 AM9/11/12
to
On Sep 10, 10:31 pm, Rebecca Caroe <rebe...@creativeagencysecrets.com>
wrote:
It's an interesting thought, Rebecca. Keep in mind, though, that the
woman I had the immense difficulty with was an expert swimmer. My
experience has been generally that ppl who've learned to move
themselves about in the water are much more adept at picking up
sculling. They seem to already have a sense for how the motions they
do against the water will affect the boat. Henry pointed out how
there were ppl who would hold an oar and be clueless as to which way
to push or pull to propel the boat in the desired direction.
Anecdotally, when I worked on campus a few years ago I used to have a
wednesday noon football game (American football, touch, no
violence).
We encouraged all comers, and we frequently attracted grad students
from European, African, Asian countries who'd never played. beyond
that, they'd never played any sort of sport with their hands, most had
played soccer.
No hands necessary.
I was amazed at the guys who had never touched a football ever who
were able to, not only catch one, but catch it on the run. They
threw the ball without the proper coaching in style, but they could
get it where they wanted and figure out a spiral.
I saw this on the pickup basketball court as well, guys who'd played
all their lives that were worthless on the court, and others who
learned how to play on our court that were able to contribute to wins
within a few months.
wrote:
woman I had the immense difficulty with was an expert swimmer. My
experience has been generally that ppl who've learned to move
themselves about in the water are much more adept at picking up
sculling. They seem to already have a sense for how the motions they
do against the water will affect the boat. Henry pointed out how
there were ppl who would hold an oar and be clueless as to which way
to push or pull to propel the boat in the desired direction.
Anecdotally, when I worked on campus a few years ago I used to have a
wednesday noon football game (American football, touch, no
violence).
We encouraged all comers, and we frequently attracted grad students
from European, African, Asian countries who'd never played. beyond
that, they'd never played any sort of sport with their hands, most had
played soccer.
No hands necessary.
I was amazed at the guys who had never touched a football ever who
were able to, not only catch one, but catch it on the run. They
threw the ball without the proper coaching in style, but they could
get it where they wanted and figure out a spiral.
I saw this on the pickup basketball court as well, guys who'd played
all their lives that were worthless on the court, and others who
learned how to play on our court that were able to contribute to wins
within a few months.
wmar...@gmail.com
Sep 11, 2012, 6:50:01 AM9/11/12
to
Henry Law
Sep 11, 2012, 11:46:33 AM9/11/12
to
On 11/09/12 06:31, Rebecca Caroe wrote:
> Thanks both of you for such insights
Insights? You, dear Rebecca, are the one with insights.
> Thanks both of you for such insights
For the benefit of the others, I'll explain. I met Ms Caroe only once
when, surely as the result of a rush of blood to the head, she agreed to
stand in as cox for the vets' crew from my club, come down from the
North to HoRR. I recall that the coaching she gave us from the
uncomfortable seat (most of it on the way back to St Paul's from the
finish) had us rowing better than we'd ever done before, or probably since.
I've got a small store of coaching lore, well-considered trifles snapped
up over the years and resting there, ready to remind me, or some hapless
coachee, of how it should be done. One of those precious bits of advice
came from Rebecca that day and I shall never forget it. Even though I
don't do it all the time, sorry!
(Another bit comes from my own daughter, who once coxed a club boat I
was in; a nice thing to have).
Charles Carroll
Sep 11, 2012, 10:01:36 PM9/11/12
to
> Moral of the story is listen to your coaches
But when your coaches offer different opinions and give conflicting advice,
how do you decide which coach to listen to?
Charles Carroll
Sep 11, 2012, 10:08:36 PM9/11/12
to
> I've got a small store of coaching lore ...
You can't do that! Raise expectations and hopes! Whet appetites! Then not
serve the dinner! Especially not to one so low as myself who has never
learned how to drink tea out of an empty cup!
What advice did Rebecca offer that you shall never forget?
Cordially,
Charles
> One of those precious bits of advice came from Rebecca that day and I
> shall never forget it.
Henry! Henry! Henry!
> shall never forget it.
You can't do that! Raise expectations and hopes! Whet appetites! Then not
serve the dinner! Especially not to one so low as myself who has never
learned how to drink tea out of an empty cup!
What advice did Rebecca offer that you shall never forget?
Cordially,
Charles
Henry Law
Sep 12, 2012, 1:38:20 AM9/12/12
to
On 12/09/12 03:08, Charles Carroll wrote:
>> I've got a small store of coaching lore ...
>> One of those precious bits of advice came from Rebecca that day and I
>> shall never forget it.
>> I've got a small store of coaching lore ...
>> One of those precious bits of advice came from Rebecca that day and I
>> shall never forget it.
> What advice did Rebecca offer that you shall never forget?
The coach, in any discipline, needs to find phrases which communicate
the required message to one particular student at one particular time.
It can be something quite simple and obvious to everyone else, but
phrased in such a way that the student "gets it" at that moment. Not
only that, but in a physical discipline (which includes not only sport
but playing a musical instrument, for example) the coach must make the
student understand not just "what is right", but most importantly "how
it feels when you do what is right".
So I'm not going to report the piece of my coaching lore which came from
Rebecca that day. You would not think it anything unusual, just an
encouragement to do "what is right" and we all know the basics of the
rowing stroke. But for me on that day, and for some students of mine
since, it magically communicated "what it feels like to do what is right".
In fact, I'll go further, and say that it would be positively hazardous
to me if I related the advice here, because someone for whom this was
not the right piece of advice, someone whose mind-body wiring is
different, might disagree with it on the basis that it wouldn't help
them personally to "get it".
A. Dumas
Sep 12, 2012, 5:23:02 AM9/12/12
to
Charles Carroll wrote:
> But when your coaches offer different opinions and give conflicting
> advice, how do you decide which coach to listen to?
Choose the one who is right.
> But when your coaches offer different opinions and give conflicting
> advice, how do you decide which coach to listen to?
sully
Sep 12, 2012, 1:56:27 PM9/12/12
to Charles Carroll
And often, two coaches might be saying essentially the same thing, but by using different approaches or language to communicate, it might sound different.
Or one teacher may emphasize something more than another would.
When I coach people, I try to get them to first picture in their heads and be able to describe what the ideal rowing stroke is. Having someone watch you and comment on what they see should then be matched with your own picture.
They might see you washing out at the finish which doesn't match what you believe to be a good stroke, but may tell you a different way to fix it that doesn't quite match your picture either. You then can evaluate whether their picture or your picture is more correct, or if you have the same picture with unfamiliar language.
Lots of masters scullers here go out and get coaching once a week. The coaches switch around and they row around and get told what to fix. Universally they seem to be pretty happy with it.
I suspect they love the attention!
Steve
Sep 14, 2012, 6:30:51 AM9/14/12
to
Hello Harry,
Your post touched upon another aspect of the learning to row process that
I've thought is lacking in so many clubs it seems these days.
I live near the Thames in London and often walk past around 10 clubs all
next to each other and witness many of the novice crews going out and see
them rowing in, what in my day would be called a "fine" boat and wobbling
all over the place and their blades skittering along the water every stroke
and think to myself, why?
I ask myself this question because at least superficially there seems almost
no gradual progression via different stages of training boat before novices
are plonked into racing shells that they cannot row.
Many clubs have training singles, but I can't remember the last time I saw a
training sweep oared craft that was coxed. In my day they were referred to
as tub pairs or tub fours and all were coxed craft.
The value of the "tub" crew boats, in my humble opinion, cannot be
overlooked. Being coxed and not sculling boats they afford two things to
"getting it" quicker and more importantly gaining confidence. The first is
that they are sweep oar (not so suitable for the very young granted, but
easier for the older starters) which means that people trying to get to
grips with the rowing stroke only have to focus on one oar in both hands as
opposed to the greater dexterity and coordination required of sculling.
Multi tasking isn't easy when you're learning something new and having to
deal with a scull in each hand makes it harder I think.
Secondly, having a cox who can alleviate the novice rowers of having to
worry about keeping their craft in a straight line is another factor that
allows the student to focus on each stroke rather than stopping to get
straight again and thus reducing interruptions.
Having an experience coach/cox on board means that the extra resources of a
coach in a launch are not required and sometimes a cox can see - and more
importantly, feel -what's going wrong and offer better and perhaps more
perceptive advice on remedying problems of technique.
For me, the progression before I ever got to row in a racing shell was:
1. Tank work
My club was very fortunate to have an indoor rowing tank with four oars on
either side set in two parallel banks - almost like an old Roman Galley. You
got to sit on a sliding seat in a rock solid environment and could have a
coach walk up and down and kneel right next to you as you fumbled with your
oar.
I think there were perhaps two or three 30 minute tank sessions before
progressing to the next step.
2. Tub pair/four
Now that the basic principals had been understood and a degree of confidence
had been gained it was time to progress to actually getting afloat. Now we
were really moving a boat forwards and learnt the feel of what it was like
to do so. Importantly, this was achieved with an experienced cox watching us
and dealing with steering. We'd stop and I remember how our cox would stand
up and talk to us and we'd all listen intently. The tub was super stable, so
it allowed us to improve technique and confidence. A little like riding a
bike with stabilizers.
Several sessions in a tub boat and then we moved on.
3. Clinker fours and eights
OK, not a step likely to be taken these days, but one I've included for
illustrative purposes.
The clinker boat now introduced us to a much narrower and somewhat less
stable platform, but also one we couldn't really break. Two or three
sessions before progressing.
4. Restricted shells
For the benefit of people who may not know what these are, then a
"restricted" shell was a wooden boat of heavier construction to that of a
racing shell proper and even had a small external "keel" running down its
bottom. They are less stable and faster than the old clinker built boats.
I recall racing an entire season in a restricted coxed four and now able to
have our blades not skitter across the water after each stroke. We had now
become proficient enough to do this at almost the first stroke of rowing
this type of shell.
5. "Fine" boat
Finally, our progression culminated in moving up to a racing shell and upon
doing so were able to row it cleanly from day one. We rarely ever had any
balance issues and I feel that in no small part that this was achieved
because of the "learning to walk before you can run" policy in place at my
club and the good fortune to have the equipment available to fulfil said
policy.
When I see youngsters wobbling around when they're put into a Janousek 4+
without any (apparent) real gradual learning curve before getting there, I
do wonder if many of these novices drop out of rowing because it's too
uncomfortable, difficult and frustrating owing to all the technical faults
going on because they've been placed too quickly at the end of the learning
curve from an equipment standpoint. I know that if I'd come off the water
with bleeding fingers and raw thighs due to unstable outings that I'd have
probably given up too.
Then again, perhaps all my above rantings/ramblings are just the view of
what many might consider a "dinosaur" and hold no value in the "modern"
rowing arena.
--
Regards
Steve
"Henry Law" <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
news:3LadnTrM5Mtu69bN...@giganews.com...
Your post touched upon another aspect of the learning to row process that
I've thought is lacking in so many clubs it seems these days.
I live near the Thames in London and often walk past around 10 clubs all
next to each other and witness many of the novice crews going out and see
them rowing in, what in my day would be called a "fine" boat and wobbling
all over the place and their blades skittering along the water every stroke
and think to myself, why?
I ask myself this question because at least superficially there seems almost
no gradual progression via different stages of training boat before novices
are plonked into racing shells that they cannot row.
Many clubs have training singles, but I can't remember the last time I saw a
training sweep oared craft that was coxed. In my day they were referred to
as tub pairs or tub fours and all were coxed craft.
The value of the "tub" crew boats, in my humble opinion, cannot be
overlooked. Being coxed and not sculling boats they afford two things to
"getting it" quicker and more importantly gaining confidence. The first is
that they are sweep oar (not so suitable for the very young granted, but
easier for the older starters) which means that people trying to get to
grips with the rowing stroke only have to focus on one oar in both hands as
opposed to the greater dexterity and coordination required of sculling.
Multi tasking isn't easy when you're learning something new and having to
deal with a scull in each hand makes it harder I think.
Secondly, having a cox who can alleviate the novice rowers of having to
worry about keeping their craft in a straight line is another factor that
allows the student to focus on each stroke rather than stopping to get
straight again and thus reducing interruptions.
Having an experience coach/cox on board means that the extra resources of a
coach in a launch are not required and sometimes a cox can see - and more
importantly, feel -what's going wrong and offer better and perhaps more
perceptive advice on remedying problems of technique.
For me, the progression before I ever got to row in a racing shell was:
1. Tank work
My club was very fortunate to have an indoor rowing tank with four oars on
either side set in two parallel banks - almost like an old Roman Galley. You
got to sit on a sliding seat in a rock solid environment and could have a
coach walk up and down and kneel right next to you as you fumbled with your
oar.
I think there were perhaps two or three 30 minute tank sessions before
progressing to the next step.
2. Tub pair/four
Now that the basic principals had been understood and a degree of confidence
had been gained it was time to progress to actually getting afloat. Now we
were really moving a boat forwards and learnt the feel of what it was like
to do so. Importantly, this was achieved with an experienced cox watching us
and dealing with steering. We'd stop and I remember how our cox would stand
up and talk to us and we'd all listen intently. The tub was super stable, so
it allowed us to improve technique and confidence. A little like riding a
bike with stabilizers.
Several sessions in a tub boat and then we moved on.
3. Clinker fours and eights
OK, not a step likely to be taken these days, but one I've included for
illustrative purposes.
The clinker boat now introduced us to a much narrower and somewhat less
stable platform, but also one we couldn't really break. Two or three
sessions before progressing.
4. Restricted shells
For the benefit of people who may not know what these are, then a
"restricted" shell was a wooden boat of heavier construction to that of a
racing shell proper and even had a small external "keel" running down its
bottom. They are less stable and faster than the old clinker built boats.
I recall racing an entire season in a restricted coxed four and now able to
have our blades not skitter across the water after each stroke. We had now
become proficient enough to do this at almost the first stroke of rowing
this type of shell.
5. "Fine" boat
Finally, our progression culminated in moving up to a racing shell and upon
doing so were able to row it cleanly from day one. We rarely ever had any
balance issues and I feel that in no small part that this was achieved
because of the "learning to walk before you can run" policy in place at my
club and the good fortune to have the equipment available to fulfil said
policy.
When I see youngsters wobbling around when they're put into a Janousek 4+
without any (apparent) real gradual learning curve before getting there, I
do wonder if many of these novices drop out of rowing because it's too
uncomfortable, difficult and frustrating owing to all the technical faults
going on because they've been placed too quickly at the end of the learning
curve from an equipment standpoint. I know that if I'd come off the water
with bleeding fingers and raw thighs due to unstable outings that I'd have
probably given up too.
Then again, perhaps all my above rantings/ramblings are just the view of
what many might consider a "dinosaur" and hold no value in the "modern"
rowing arena.
--
Regards
Steve
"Henry Law" <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
news:3LadnTrM5Mtu69bN...@giganews.com...
Henry Law
Sep 14, 2012, 6:42:37 AM9/14/12
to
On 14/09/12 11:30, Steve wrote:
> Many clubs have training singles, but I can't remember the last time I saw a
> training sweep oared craft that was coxed. In my day they were referred to
> as tub pairs or tub fours and all were coxed craft.
>
> The value of the "tub" crew boats
Oh my, I do agree with you. My club does indeed have training singles,
> Many clubs have training singles, but I can't remember the last time I saw a
> training sweep oared craft that was coxed. In my day they were referred to
> as tub pairs or tub fours and all were coxed craft.
>
> The value of the "tub" crew boats
made by Ahoy Boats (local to us, as it happens); they can be put on the
water with or without stabilising floats on the bottom of the rigger and
are excellent. But, as you suggest, that's it. I'd love to have a tub
pair but frankly we don't even have enough room for the boats we have,
let alone one that would be seen by numerous people as taking up
unnecessary space.
I keep thinking of devising a "bank tub". in which people could at least
practice the stroke intensively with a coach right along side them, but
even that wouldn't make up for the the lack of a tub. And I don't know
where we'd keep that either.
Steve
Sep 14, 2012, 7:45:52 AM9/14/12
to
Oh, thank goodness! :)
I really thought my views would be derided, so it's nice to have (as some
might see it) a fellow "dinosaur" to retain such heretical views :)
SOmetimes .... just sometimes, the old ways are best.
Hmmmm ... what happens when we become extinct though. :)
news:qqadndM9f7aAl87N...@giganews.com...
I really thought my views would be derided, so it's nice to have (as some
might see it) a fellow "dinosaur" to retain such heretical views :)
SOmetimes .... just sometimes, the old ways are best.
Hmmmm ... what happens when we become extinct though. :)
news:qqadndM9f7aAl87N...@giganews.com...
davie...@gmail.com
Sep 17, 2012, 5:21:39 AM9/17/12
to Steve
My club uses a Eurodiffusion coastal coxed quad as the modern incarnation of the clinker tub 4 I learnt in.
andymck...@gmail.com
Sep 17, 2012, 6:41:08 AM9/17/12
to Steve
Andy Mckenzie
Goring Gap Boat Club
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