Physics behind "bucket rigging"?
B. Armstrong
Can someone explain what are the purposes for "bucket rigging" a boat? (for
those that don't know what that is, it's when two adjacent seats on the
boats have riggers on the same side).
I know there's a physics reason, as well as a technique reason.
Any help would be appreciated.
--
Geoffrey Hoffman
In article <5vscn9$n...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, "B. Armstrong"
some of the reasons i have seen are these:
you have a really good guy, and a somewhat inconsistent guy on the same
side, and you want the second to follow the first. This way, he has
something that is his own side to follow.
I also had a boat where the guy who would have been bow was much bigger
than the two seat, and actually could not fit in the bow of our boat (we
had a really big boat, and a correspondingly good year), so we had a
bucket in the middle that offset the bow.
we also had a 6-7 bucket once, so that the coach could try the 8 seat at
stroke without flipping the whole rig. another time, it was becuase we
had a stroke, but then no one on his side who could follow well, but two
guys on the other side, so we had both of them behind the stroke.
for fours, i have heard that it is slightly more efficient to bucket it,
and from what i have heard, this has no effect in an 8, so with 8's, it is
basically used to adjust the order to what you want.
anyway, just some ideas...
Geoffrey S Knauth
Funniest thing I ever saw on this subject: In 1989, the Chinese women
had a triple bucket at Worlds, at S7-6, P5-4, S3-2. It was fun to watch.
--
Geoffrey S. Knauth <gkn...@bbn.com> <http://world.std.com/~gsk/>
Anu Dudhia
B. Armstrong wrote:
>
> I know there's a physics reason,
Someone call?
With a four the main reason for having a tandem pair in the middle is to
try an even-out the yawing movement caused at the catch.
People in the bows exert more of a turning force on the boat than people
in the stern (which is why coxes generally use bow-pair to adjust the
direction before setting off). Similary, bow exerts more force than 2,
so by having 2 and 3 on the same side you can counteract this a little.
It also helps if you have a front-loader coxed four (rather than a
stern-loader or coxless four) - "bow" is further away from the bows so
turns the boat less, so there is less need for a tandem pair.
However, this is generally not the reason for tandem pairs in an eight -
the boat is longer so the yawing is negligible.
The reason is usually because the coach feels that the ideal people to
row "6" and "7" (say), just happen to row on the same side. Of course,
this can also be the reason for a tandem pair in a four.
If you do have a tandem pair in an eight, this leads to "bow" and
"stroke" both being on the same side, which can create a problem with
stroke having to row in bow's puddle. Therefore, if you often have two
tandem pairs rather than just one.
Tandem pairs are generally a hassle - you can no longer row comfortably
in pairs or fours with other members of the boat sitting it out.
William Peden
>>>>> "Anu" == Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac*despam*.uk> writes:
Anu> B. Armstrong wrote:
>> I know there's a physics reason,
Anu> [Good explanation deleted]
Bucket rigging (or "tandems" as we like to call them in the colonies)
are a fashion item. A national or state crew is seen with one at a
regatta, and the next week every second club or school crew coach tries
one. The physical principle being: "Clueless coach feels an
irresistable urge to imitate good coach, in proportion to the absolute
difference of their clue".
Bill
--
"Apprentice fop, scribbler and psychopath."
RedKAT4
I think i might have an answer, since i just raced a tandem rigged boat.
It only works for certain crews though, since everyone is different. In our
case, it made the boat go straighter. By having bow-port 2&3-starboard
stroke- port. If you add up the #s on starboard, you get 5 and add up the
#s on port, you get 5 so therefore it helps the boat move straighter. I'm
not sure if that's right, but that's what i've been told. (It worked for us
though)
Robert Plater
It's called the Italian Rig, no guess why, they are a crazy lot.
Rob.
--
It's amazing what the human body can cope with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Plater
University of New South Wales
robp...@geocities.com
Jillian & Drew Cosgrove
The reason that was explained to me was the fact of "twisting" that
occurs during the drive. By rigging a bucket you reduce the torque
and stress on a shell by reduceing the points at which it twists thus
keeping the shell straight and on course. Is there a physical
correlation to this? Sure! Maybe a tenth of a second. It is more
mental than physical. Sort of like swimmers shaving their legs before
a big meet.
Dan Hoover
Robert Plater wrote:
>
> Geoffrey S Knauth wrote:
> >
> > Funniest thing I ever saw on this subject: In 1989, the Chinese women
> > had a triple bucket at Worlds, at S7-6, P5-4, S3-2. It was fun to watch.
> > --
> > Geoffrey S. Knauth <gkn...@bbn.com> <http://world.std.com/~gsk/>
>
> It's called the Italian Rig, no guess why, they are a crazy lot.
>
> Rob.
Even better - at the Stotes in '95 there was an eight from down south
(Va, I think - can't remember what school) that had a boy's JV8 with
*four* - count 'em - *four* buckets.
ex-
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I went over to their coach and asked him all about it with the
straightest face I could muster - he said something about the boat
swinging real well with that particular configuration.
Needless to say, their results were unremarkable - lucky for him there
didn't seem to be much horsepower there, as I'm sure stress points
developed in places Mike Vespoli never imagined.
We all got a really good chuckle at that coach's expense (hope he's not
reading this).
dh
ly...@isoc.org
> Even better - at the Stotes in '95 there was an eight from down south
> (Va, I think - can't remember what school) that had a boy's JV8 with
> *four* - count 'em - *four* buckets.
>
> ex-
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> I went over to their coach and asked him all about it with the
> straightest face I could muster - he said something about the boat
> swinging real well with that particular configuration.
>
> Needless to say, their results were unremarkable - lucky for him there
> didn't seem to be much horsepower there, as I'm sure stress points
> developed in places Mike Vespoli never imagined.
>
> We all got a really good chuckle at that coach's expense (hope he's not
> reading this).
>
> dh
I just want to confirm this. I was coaching for a Northern Virginia
school that year and I too saw this boat at Stotesbury. (And yes, that
boat was from VA.) It really did look ridiculous! DH must be pretty good
at keeping a strait face because I couldn't stop laughing when I saw it.
A slow crew is a slow crew no matter how the boat is rigged.
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Ian Packer
I can tell you why a boat I was in did it:
We had a small guy at bow but he was a stroke sider (right)
Jason Higley
Perhaps I can be of assistance.
The "physics" of a bucket rig is fairly simple actually.
Remember H.S. Physics: VECTORS ?
Standard Rig:
<|
|> <-Sum of Starboard Vectors is at this point
<| <-Sum of Port Vectors is at this point
|>
Bucket Rig:
<|
|> _ Sum of Port and Starboard Vectors both at this point.
|>
<|
In plain English: In a standard starboard-stroked 4 (this works for
eights as well) the net force on the hull from the starboard side is at
3 seat. The net force from the port side is at 2 seat. (This causes the
boat to turn to starboard). In a bucket rigged boat, the total force
from both sides is between 2 and 3 seat, hence the boat will
(theoretically) go straighter (trans: faster).
This is of course all theoretical (not everyone pulls the same)
I hope this explains the "why" a little bit anyway.
-Jake.
rowdoc
> Can someone explain what are the purposes for "bucket rigging" a boat? (for
> those that don't know what that is, it's when two adjacent seats on the
> boats have riggers on the same side).
>
> I know there's a physics reason, as well as a technique reason.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
> --
The main reason people use tandems is for "show".
Don't bother.
stan...@gmail.com
SBBSSBBS
http://benrodford.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/WeHoRR-2013/G00007pb6LsKti2k/I0000i0FO2WRvaSo/C0000rkikvQss3OQ
It was a very varied group from Olympians to novices and it was literally the only way to get them to row in time.
I tried it for training and it went well, went back to a normal rig and it went worse- went back to the buckets and it went better, so they ended up racing like that. I think a lot of it was psychology rather than physics but often that is as important.
Once the better athletes had dragged up the standard of the weaker ones we raced the summer conventionally rigged.
Idea totally stolen from John Langfield formerly of Hampton and Eton in 70's and 80's who I had the pleasure of coaching with in 2003
there is nothing new in rowing.
stan
gsl...@gmail.com
>
> It's called the Italian Rig, no guess why, they are a crazy lot.
>
> Rob.
>
We called it a German Rig, in my undergrad days. We rowed that way in a 4+ for a little while, because the coach said we swung better with that particular line up.
Hardly rowed sweep in the last 35 years but, Certainly in some of the quad's I've rowed the order of the line up mattered, no reason why it wouldn't also apply to a 4+.
