are some racing singles just inherently tippier?

[GeorgeH]

This may seem like a "no, duh" question to those who've had the chance to row a lot of different designs, but since I began rowing a racing single in 1991, I've mostly rowed only my two Kaschpers -- first a heavyweight racing boat and since 2003 a super heavyweight Kaschper Extreme. I love my boat, but it can be frustrating to set up. I've always assumed that's purely a matter of my technique, but lately I've been wondering (since I might eventually buy another boat) if it has something to do with the Kaschper design.

I did try an Empacher heavyweight once, but it was unusually tubby and surely not representative of the breed. I've also regularly rowed a Maas Aero and a Maas 24 on rough and/or cold water days, but I know these are not "racing" singles. I'd love to try a Fluidesign, Van Dusen, Vespoli, Hudson, Win-Tech, etc., but at 235 lbs, I'd probably sink most of my lighter friends' boats and overpower most heavyweight singles. The one exception is the Peinert club boats I sometimes get a chance to row. The Peinerts seem much more stable and easy to set up than my Kaschpers -- some Peinerts I've tried will actually set up at the dock with no oars in them, which amazes me. My Kaschper just rolls over. I realize this is apples and oranges, but still.

I suppose there's a design tradeoff between speed and tippiness -- with tippier meaning faster. But I have no real clue.

I realized in thinking about this question that I have less information about rowing equipment than I do about almost anything else I regularly buy or use -- there's no Consumer Reports for rowing that I'm aware of, and nothing like the Amazon feedback system that would let me compare different boats or gadgets -- something I really wish I'd had before I plunked down $479 for a NK GPS speedcoach, but that's another story.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[sully]

absolutely, yes, different hulls will have different feels and tippiness to them, and also the sizing or model of the boat at the same manufacturer, will make a difference as well.

Where you go from here depends on what your goals and level of sculling. We had a club member who learned how to scull from me, then rented someone's Empacher. He was improving in it, was able to row it, his wife decided to surprise him by buying him a brand new single, it was a Fluid. When he was sculling it initially, he was frustrated because it was so tippy.

A year later and he's happy with it, he's not interested in competing.

How the boat is rigged will have a lot to do with it's tippy feel as well. If rigged really high, or with uneven or too much pitch, the drive can feel uncertain and boat feel more tippy.

I worked with a group of college and post-collegiate athletes in a fleet of racing singles, four different manufacturers. There was NO consensus on a favorite boat. One guy hated the Empacher, loved the Hudson, another the opposite.

[marko....@gmail.com]

I've only had the chance to try three different designs but yes, they differ. We have one old one at our club which is for a 70-75kgish sculler that is so narrow one guy who is a very keen cyclist had this thighs rub the sides of the cockpit! Needless to say it is very very tippy. No idea of the brand, it is a kevlar/carbon mix.

My attitude has always been that they don't differ enough to mean I won't get used to it eventually.

[thomas....@googlemail.com]

The difficulty with having a review site or collecting people's opinion is that we are all very different, and so what applies for one person may not be the same for another. Case in point, sully mentioned above that someone tried a fluid and found it tippy, personally I own a fluid and I find it one of the most stable boats I've rowed, including empacher, perhaps due to my own shape/size/technique. It's best to try and set your budget, and then try different boats as and when you can and see which suits you the best

[Brian Chapman]

On Tuesday, 26 August 2014 17:21:06 UTC+1, GeorgeH wrote:

I have a Finnish shape Stampfli X1, love the boat but it hates following anything else. As it was designed for elite scullers who row on multi-lane courses that was probably not a design consideration, and I have got used to it.

I have also rowed Filippi singles and they feel tippy until you get used to them, which possibly shows their Donoratico heritage.

[Carl]

George -
Static and dynamic instability are poor indicators of likely performance.

A single with a well-positioned and shaped fin/skeg should acquire
significant dynamic stability (i.e. when being sculled), regardless of
any seeming tippiness at the dock. Fin location does markedly affect
dynamic stability, since one placed too far astern is in more disturbed
water (thicker boundary layer) & also tends to induce squirrelling when
the boat rocks.

Most singles are inherently unstable without their crew as they have
rounded bottoms & their CofG is well above their unladen roll centre.
Some features (e.g. wing riggers) increase that CofG height. But your
own CofG in the boat will be higher still.

A competent sculler should quickly be able to settle into any of the
better singles, & it can be self-defeating to fixate on stability from
the outset. The only relevant question (apart from build quality) is
the performance you can actually extract from the boat, & a positive
attitude from the outset is the best way to find what works best, just
as it is the best way to approach your next race.

If choosing a racing machine, ignore what others try to tell you about
its merits and demerits. Put it to the most rigorous & relevant test:
get in it and see how hard you can scull it & how fast it will go in
your hands.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
High-performance Shells/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[Chip Johannessen]

Carl, that fin stuff is very interesting and makes me wonder if the far aft placement of the standard Filippi F15 fin, which is just a flat blade of aluminum, contributes to its trickiness.

This is what Filippi says of the F15 on their own website: "Boat suitable for all the light weight rowers. The best one to improve your skill because it's hard to row but with high performance."

Even aside from the interesting language choices, this raises a question. Could upgrading to the shaped carbon fin help stability? I suppose I should be asking Filippi...

Chip

[GeorgeH]

Thanks for all the knowledgeable replies!

A rowing pal was docking his Fluid this morning, so I asked and he told me he thinks it's very stable -- though he said the rep sold him on a bow-mounted rigger because it's more stable, and everything I've read suggests it makes no real difference. And I got smoked today by a guy in an Empacher (though I'm SURE he was 20-30 years younger than me), so of course I want one of those so I can beat him next time. I've been rowing singles for 23 years, row about six miles a day and haven't raced formally since high school, but I'm always working on technique and trying to get a little faster (which is why I like the Speedcoach) so I can overtake people in front of me or hold off ones trying to overtake me. Not "racing," per se, but sort of, sometimes. The 2nd half of my morning row on the Potomac is roughly the same as the annual Head of the Potomac, which I keep meaning to enter.

I've been rowing long enough that I agree that there's probably no boat I couldn't get used to and come to enjoy. And I agree that stability may be fairly similar from maker to maker, since all racing singles are designed to go fast, and need that tradeoff between stability and speed, and I'd trade a little more of the latter for a little less of the former. And per Carl, I don't really expect a good single to set up at the dock, and I'll try to try different boats -- I wish it were as easy as going to a dealer to test-drive a car! My Fluid friend said that when he was shopping, only the Vespoli rep offered to bring him a boat to test-drive.

I still wish there were somewhere rowers could crowd-source their impressions of different models. I take the point that that's bound to be imprecise because we're all so different, but it seems to me that if you read enough reviews of anything, themes emerge. It bugs me that I have little way of knowing which boat I might like better than my Kaschper, if any, other than the rough gauge of price plus random observations such as my friend's this morning.

Thanks again for the help!

[Henry Law]

On 28/08/14 02:08, GeorgeH wrote:
> And I got smoked today by a guy in an Empacher (though I'm SURE he was 20-30 years younger than me), so of course I want one of those so I can beat him next time.

Spray yours yellow; worth a length in any race.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

[GeorgeH]

Brilliant! And infinitely cheaper.

I also plan to become younger, which should buy me another length, which is all I need.

[Carl]

I'm happy to comment, if it might help?

It is advantageous for a single to use a flat fin, provided it has a
rounded, not sharpened, leading edge. The flat fin provides enough lift
to resist those initial yawing movements which make it harder to keep a
straight course, but conveniently stalls (loses lift) when you do
actually try to change course. A sharpened leading edge doesn't reduce
its drag but can make it stall too easily.

If by "shaped fin" you mean one with a quasi-aerodynamically shaped
cross-section, that will resist turning even when turning or course
correction is needed, the purpose of aerofoil shapes (as on aircraft
wings, etc.) being specifically to increase the angle of attack & thus
the lift generated) before a fin or wing stalls. You don't need a
high-lift, high AoA capacity in your non-steerable course-stabilising fin.

As I've said before, a flat fin should stabilise a moving shell but, if
set too far back, it won't do that well.

Finally, there's no logic in the proposition that a boat being less
stable to scull implies greater performance potential. It is perfectly
possible to make a boat that's both fast & stable.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -

Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories

[Charles Carroll]

One quick thought about whether some shells are inherently tippier than
others.

My shell is roughly 27 feet long (8 meters), 30.4 lbs (14 kg) and about 11.5
inches (29 cm) at its widest. I am asked all the time, particularly by
novice scullers, how I can scull it. My answer is that it is very easy to
scull. “It is actually very stable,” I say.

But truth to tell, I have been rowing Carl’s shell for seven years and I am
very familiar with it.

Now I have had several coaches suggest that if I really want to get “serious
about technique” I should start going out in an Aero or 24. Their reasoning
is that these shells are much less “tippier” than mine, and so I will feel
much more comfortable working on technique in them.

And I have tried to be agreeable. I have followed the advice.

But here is the problem. Every time I have taken out an Aero or 24 I find
myself very uncomfortable. These shells feel very different from my shell,
particularly the Aero. My shell knifes through the water. The Aero glides
over the water. After seven years in my shell this gliding sensation feels
very unfamiliar. It leaves me with an uneasy sensation that I am not in
control of the shell.

So it seems to me that this points to a correlation between familiarity and
tippiness.

It is quite likely that any shell which you have become accustomed to
sculling is going to feel less tippy and more familiar than a shell that you
are sculling for the first time.

I suspect that if I gave myself a week to get used to the Aero, it would be
a different story.

And just to finish with this subject, here is how Gordon Hamilton started my
first lesson with him back in August 2004:

First thing Gordon did was to make the shell larger by expanding its
boundaries. According to Gordon a rowing shell should be measured not by the
width of the hull but by the distance between the pins.

"Think of a shell," Gordon said, "not as a pencil fourteen inches wide, but
as a large, stable boat five feet wide and thirty feet long. If you think of
it this way you can stop trying to balance it. Instead think of it as being
very stable. Also don't think of a shell as two-dimensional. Think of it as
three dimensional."

I think what Gordon is saying is that all shells can be easy to scull if you
think of them this way.

Cordially,

Charles


---
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[sully]

On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 11:01:01 AM UTC-7, Charles Carroll wrote:
> One quick thought about whether some shells are inherently tippier than
>
> others.
>
>
>
> My shell is roughly 27 feet long (8 meters), 30.4 lbs (14 kg) and about 11.5
>
> inches (29 cm) at its widest. I am asked all the time, particularly by
>
> novice scullers, how I can scull it. My answer is that it is very easy to
>
> scull. "It is actually very stable," I say.
>
>
>
> But truth to tell, I have been rowing Carl's shell for seven years and I am
>
> very familiar with it.
>
>
>
> Now I have had several coaches suggest that if I really want to get "serious
>
> about technique" I should start going out in an Aero or 24. Their reasoning
>
> is that these shells are much less "tippier" than mine, and so I will feel
>
> much more comfortable working on technique in them.
>
>
>
> And I have tried to be agreeable. I have followed the advice.
>
>
>
> But here is the problem. Every time I have taken out an Aero or 24 I find
>
> myself very uncomfortable. These shells feel very different from my shell,
>
> particularly the Aero. My shell knifes through the water. The Aero glides
>
> over the water. After seven years in my shell this gliding sensation feels
>
> very unfamiliar. It leaves me with an uneasy sensation that I am not in
>
> control of the shell.
>

Hold on!! "Working on technique" is waaayyyy too generic a term. I would advise you very strongly to work on a particular aspect of your rowing in an Aero, say "power application", or "learning how to catch".

If you translated that to mean "Sully says to work on technique in an Aero", I'd sue for defamation! :^)

When I teach catches, I use a double or a wherry/aero etc.. This allows the sculler to break down the various motions that compose the catch, often requiring one to perch out and hold blades off the water square with boat stopped in a relaxed fashion in order to practice dropping blades during the recovery sequence.

This is most useful on a very stable platform, and few can do this effectively in a racing single.

Power application is another part of the stroke where I might employ a stable boat for teaching.

I generally do not for finishes, I prefer to put ppl in the boats they row in and is most sensitive. In the teaching process for finishes, a well rigged good racing shell will provide better feedback than the coach can.

Part of my issue is what it means to 'work on technique', but that's a whole 'nuther subject! :^)

[GeorgeH]

On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 3:41:13 PM UTC-4, sully wrote:
>
> Hold on!! "Working on technique" is waaayyyy too generic a term. I would advise you very strongly to work on a particular aspect of your rowing in an Aero, say "power application", or "learning how to catch".

> If you translated that to mean "Sully says to work on technique in an Aero", I'd sue for defamation! :^)
>
> When I teach catches, I use a double or a wherry/aero etc.. This allows the sculler to break down the various motions that compose the catch, often requiring one to perch out and hold blades off the water square with boat stopped in a relaxed fashion in order to practice dropping blades during the recovery sequence.
>
> This is most useful on a very stable platform, and few can do this effectively in a racing single.
>
> Power application is another part of the stroke where I might employ a stable boat for teaching.
>
> I generally do not for finishes, I prefer to put ppl in the boats they row in and is most sensitive. In the teaching process for finishes, a well rigged good racing shell will provide better feedback than the coach can.
>
> Part of my issue is what it means to 'work on technique', but that's a whole 'nuther subject! :^)

Interesting discussion. I share an Aero with two friends, and my wife has a 24 -- I use both as cold water/rough water boats. When I move back into the racer after a few days in either boat, I usually find I've developed bad habits. The Aero and the 24 are so much more stable than what I usually row that I stop worrying as much about setting up the boat.

I hadn't thought of practicing technique in them -- good idea.

To my chagrin, the only one of the three I've flipped in the last few years is the 24, shortly after moving into it when the water temp dropped into the 50s. The port oar popped right out of the oarlock. For which I of course blamed the oarlock ... until I realized that I had somehow screwed up when I closed the gate, something I must have done a few thousand times. Rowing is constantly teaching me humility one way or another.

[sully]

Teaching beginners, the "oarlock trick" is a common one.

I try to check everybody's oarlock before they push off, both to make sure the oar was put in the correct side of the pin, and that the lock is locked correctly.

What happens is that the gate will be pushed into the slot when the nut piece isn't all the way opened up. It'll fit just right so that when the sculler tightens it, the nut will tighten against it, but the threaded portion won't be completely seated in the slot, it'll be riding along the edge of the slot.

A minor crab will pop the gate open.

It's funny, when I try to demonstrate to the new scullers how this happens, I find it difficult to adjust the nut to just that right place to get it stuck.

remember Murphy, this is most likely to happen when the water or weather is cold!!!

I have a routine I have scullers employ that I learned as "check pins and locks". I try to teach ppl to do this when they have tied in on the water, before doing pieces, and first thing after docking. Check riggers, oarlocks, footboards, etc for loose hardware.

There are SO many things to cover for a beginner that I miss about 1/3

[Charles Carroll]

> Hold on!! "Working on technique" is waaayyyy
> too generic a term. I would advise you very
> strongly to work on a particular aspect of your
> rowing in an Aero, say "power application"

> or "learning how to catch".
>
> If you translated that to mean "Sully says to work
> on technique in an Aero", I'd sue for defamation! :^)
>
> When I teach catches, I use a double or a wherry/aero
> etc.. This allows the sculler to break down the
> various motions that compose the catch, often
> requiring one to perch out and hold blades off the
> water square with boat stopped in a relaxed fashion
> in order to practice dropping blades during the
> recovery sequence.
>
> This is most useful on a very stable platform,
> and few can do this effectively in a racing single.
>
> Power application is another part of the stroke
> where I might employ a stable boat for teaching.
>
> I generally do not for finishes, I prefer to put ppl
> in the boats they row in and is most sensitive.
> In the teaching process for finishes, a well rigged
> good racing shell will provide better feedback
> than the coach can.

Mike,

A very important post and very much worth rereading several times!

I quite agree that “working on technique” is way too generic. It actually
doesn’t tell you anything.

So specifically Gordon had me working on not starting the recovery until I
was in a strong position at the release. And again you are quite right. My
shell, “a well rigged good racing shell,” provided excellent feedback.

In case you are interested, I’ll give you the context for why Gordon had me
working on this specifically.

In the beginning of June when Sandy and I returned from the UK I started
having a problem with my sculling that I thought I would never have. I
simply lost confidence in my ability to scull. My shell felt exceptionally
tippy and I was constantly worried about capsizing. This was so bad that I
would go out on the water and find myself shaking. I felt that I didn’t have
any control of my shell. I couldn’t turn. I couldn’t stop. I couldn’t get my
blades out of the water. I couldn’t pick up speed. I seemed to have lost any
ability for sculling that I might have had.

I have to tell you that things were so bad I actually found myself saying to
myself that I was going to sell my shell and give up sculling.

Of course the instant I thought about it I thought this was one of the most
ridiculous things I have ever said. I am not going to sell my shell! I am
just going to have to find my confidence.

So that’s what Gordon and I were working on.

Of course Gordon was the perfect coach for this problem His belief that all
good sculling grows out of the release is unshakable.

Confidence is prerequisite to good sculling.
Being in a strong position at the release produces confidence.
Therefore being in a strong position at the release is prerequisite to good
sculling

The premise is just that simple.

So we found a little bit of good water and we just worked on the release.
There was no talk of moving to an Aero, or any other boat. It was just me in
Carl’s boat and Gordon’s very patient and intelligent coaching.

I am sorry I wasn’t clearer in my original post.

Last night I wrote to Carl that I have lost count of the number of times I
have written the words I have never sculled better. But as many times as I
may have written these words, I never intended them to mean that I was happy
with my sculling, only that it was improving.

But after the two lessons with Gordon and the revelation last week in Carl’s
shell, I can say that for the first time since I stepped into a shell I
feel that I can scull. Not just that I am improving and might one day be
able to scull — but that I can actually scull!

Anyway, as usual I have written too much. I am off to Sausalito …

Warmest regards,

[robin_d...@hotmail.com]

>
> But after the two lessons with Gordon and the revelation last week in Carl's
> shell, I can say that for the first time since I stepped into a shell I
> feel that I can scull. Not just that I am improving and might one day be

> able to scull -- but that I can actually scull!
>

This is an interesting and perhaps cathartic observation. It is probably more than 6 years now Charles - in fact, probably more like 8 since you kindly hosted me at Sausalito and subsequently your dining table. Sadly it will probably be another few years (children are an even bigger money-pit than boats!) before I am in a position to visit you again. As an observer, though, faced with your comment above I will offer you the following. Even when I was visiting, to use your terminology - you could "actually scull" back then : no ifs, no buts. Were you perfect? No. Was I perfect? No. Is anyone perfect - even Olympic Gold Medallists? No. Can we all aspire to improve from where we are? All of us can. Every stroke, every outing, every year. I look forward to seeing you "actually scull" again when I next get the chance to come over your way - and I very much look forward to this opportunity. Best wishes.

[sully]

Gordon and I are in complete agreement on this.

a couple points. There are two parts of the release portion of the stroke that are co-dependent, the first being finish, the next being release.

With new scullers, while they're doing Aero miles, I have them focusing primarily on their hands and steering and to practice their boat handling skills a little every session, hold water, back a little, etc. Unless they're doing something radically uncomfortable on the drive or recovery, I don't even mention that stuff. Many of these new scullers are in sweep programs anyway and are getting talked to about that.

When a sculler moves to a single, they'll sometimes check with me (they don't have to, btw, they're free to go). I ask how hands/steering/boat handling is going, and if they're on the water, have them show me.

If it's obvious they haven't been focusing on those simple things, I tell them to go work on that stuff before they get any help from me, or go ahead and pay one of the rent-a-coaches to give them verbal massages, because I try to teach sculling.

(I'm kind of an a-hole that way).

but if they've been scullers, the next step is releases. If your hands are good, you can steer fairly well (can you go 50 strokes straight?), then focusing on releases is a huge payoff to enjoyable rowing. It takes almost no coaching, just a couple simple instructions and a promise to focus on it.

Release high and relax. You may drill by pausing at finish if you like, but the primary thing to do is exaggerate the release height, relax, and ALLOW THE BOAT TO FALL TO ONE SIDE OR OTHER. Do not balance the boat. on the recovery, just relax, one scull will be skimming the water for a bit, not a problem. Do not try to compensate, it tightens you up. relax arms, relax shoulders, exhale..

What's really cool about this exercise is that on the first day you work on this, most people have a couple strokes where they managed to exert exactly even pressure and depth of their blades, thus when they released high, the boat set like an aircraft carrier.

Thus it's an exercise where the boat is your best coach. I can quote one of the scullers saying "Wow!".

Finishes are much harder to learn, actually take a lot of coaching and feedback I think, but having the release motion more exaggerated is an excellent pre-cursor to learning good finishes, and it is possible to learn on your own.

When you are 'balancing the boat' on the recovery, there are times when your finishes are symmetrical, but you never know it because you're still making tense little motions in anticipation of the boat being off keel.

Even if you don't finish really well (IE maintain power to body with deep blade), scullers can learn to finish evenly such that their rowing is relaxed and rewarding. Good finishes make it more likely to have superbly comfortable releases, but aren't a precursor. Lots of scullers are relaxed, rowing easily with blades off and washing out dramatically.

add distance and power and rate to the exercise, you're on your way!

Eventually, the release height drops to 'just enough' on flat water, which, as long as you're relaxed at release, will continue to give good feedback.

another point on releases, is just like hand position and grip, there's an inexorable force that drives us to poor releases. The sculling gremlin gets everybody on it, a few bad strokes, some fatigue, a long hard piece where you run out of gas and focus, you find yourself dragging on the early recovery to keep the boat set and you're doing 'trainingwheel sculling', you've joined the crowd again!

With every poor stroke, the probablility goes up a little that the next stroke will match it! Then the next and the next, the probability increases over time. I totally understand why, we naturally want to row a level boat. As human beings, even our best practiced motions will fail here and there. Since we enjoy that level boat, it becomes the goal, not the consequence of the goal. Damned gremlin.

the group of recreational rowers at the lake don't want to race, they just want a little exercise, social time, and go track down the formations of pelicans and be awed by the fishing ospreys and eagles. I have their fearless leader drill them on releases and disciplined slide on recovery, this minimum amount of focus helps keep their eight enjoyable to row.

Hope you enjoyed your row today! I did, that Russian billionaire's "stealth missile cruiser James Bond villain" yacht was out there with me in Redwood City Harbor:

http://live.wsj.com/video/inside-a-russian-billionaire-300-million-yacht/B91C478A-E6BB-4FCA-BD8C-61A1E79AB0B0.html#!B91C478A-E6BB-4FCA-BD8C-61A1E79AB0B0

[Henry Law]

On 05/09/14 21:48, sully wrote:
> a couple points.

Occasionally, very occasionally, I find a post so valuable that I save
it on disk to be sure of not losing it.

This was one of those. Ctrl-S it is. Thanks, Mike!

[sully]

On Friday, September 5, 2014 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, Henry Law wrote:
> On 05/09/14 21:48, sully wrote:
>
> > a couple points.
>
>
>
> Occasionally, very occasionally, I find a post so valuable that I save
>
> it on disk to be sure of not losing it.
>
>
>
> This was one of those. Ctrl-S it is. Thanks, Mike!
>

Thanks, Henry. One point on releases I thought to include but didn't:

mileage may vary, but I think 50 miles of focused sculling on these releases should be enough for most average athletes to have incorporated sound releases into their sculling where they can focus on something else and not lose it on the releases.

this is not a 500 mile thing like catches.

but as your sculling improves (the boat feels better) it's always good to drill varying release heights. What I mean by "drill" is say while you are doing some other kind of work, vary your release heights. Say you're doing some intervals at racing rating, say 300 hard strokes with some varying rates and durations. Do one 30 stroke piece with exaggerated height. Do another where you try to skim as low as possible, vary it in your pieces.

This you can put in your tool kit for rough days!

Make it playful, it takes some of the drudge out of SS miles, and helps the focus.

As you get these releases well in-hand, you'll be seeking out rough water and looking forward to coaching launch wakes.

:^)