Another oen bites the dust
Carl
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/16/nboat16.xml
As usual, the attractions of cheap & imported have swayed the British
buying public - all part of a slow erosion of skilled employment in the
UK which has been closing car, motorcycle, engineering & manufacturing
for 50 years, as jobs are inexorably exported to low-cost, low safety,
low-care nations. This process has been accelerated by the speculative
shifts in currencies making cheap even cheaper.
However, as seen elsewhere on RSR of late, we're a long way from the
point at which cheap becomes in any way better. In short, you still
only get what you pay for. And wait until currencies return to where
they stood a couple of years back.
The smart-arse notion prevails in the West that we can still print
enough money out of "service" activities to keep the ship afloat &
everyone in a gainful job (despite record balance of payments deficits)
& that a manufacturing & technology base is unnecessary to a nation. So
we have an increasingly technically-illiterate youth which thinks making
things (other than a mess) & actually understanding things is a waste of
time, & are lulled by commercials into believing that the whole world
loves them & owes them a living from cradle to grave.
Long ago Chairman Mao said, "We will bury you". One day the far East
will have its hands so firmly around our balls that, when it chooses to
squeeze, it will bring us straight to our knees. I wonder if they will
even bother to export their jobs to what will, by then, be our
impoverished societies. After all, do they need us? But sure as hell
they will remember how we once treated them.
Whatever their real or, more likely, imagined faults, I deeply regret
the loss of this competitor - another casualty to the deadly combination
of soggy tradition & the financial consultants.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
coach
consultants loose.
I wonder how much a riverside apartment with a view of Windsor Castle
will cost and how many properties they will try and squeeze into the
site.
I regret that the proffits from building boats is going to be nowhere
near what the site can generate.
One can only hope that when any developers look in detail at the
construction costs of building next to the river, on a site where it
is amost impossible to get large vehicles in and out, they will think
again.
anto...@aol.com
> A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
>
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)
I found the comment
"Mr Sims said the college's status as a charity made it essential that
the yard was profitable."
to be slightly odd. I am sure you Carl as a business man also finds it
essential to be profitable.
I would add that in a country which NEEDS to import imigrant labour
from Eastern Europe to function, that has very little unemployment and
that is benefitting from lower interest rates due to low inflation
caused by lower prices asa result of globalization, one must be
careful what one says.
By creating an environment which protects ERB, you would infact create
a much worse state of affairs.
Rower123
>
> - Show quoted text -
My interpretation is that Carl laments a society which chooses low
cost and is not willing to pay for high value/quality. It can be
argued that this short-term mindset is storing up economic and other
problems for the future.
I agree that an environment of formal protection (economic) can also
be problematic however I do not read that this is suggested.
JY
> Whatever their real or, more likely, imagined faults, I deeply regret
> the loss of this competitor - another casualty to the deadly combination
> of soggy tradition & the financial consultants.
Indeed, a very regrettable loss, although to blame the demise of ERB
on the UK public's love of cheap boats/accountants/Chinese is a little
glib.
ERB was loss making for quite a while. I am sure that some of ERBs
problems were of its own making. It had neither a strong enough
brand, or a USP/niche market. Eton College is not really the ideal
management/parent company either.
OTOH their surviving repair service works well and is to be
recommended (all those Chinese imports need a lot of after-sales
service).
Chris Kerr
Indeed, you could argue that one of the reasons that ERB was outcompeted by
the Chinese was because protectionist tariffs on other Chinese goods are
artificially depressing the exchange rate. (Admittedly the fact that China
and other Asian countries are busy buying up vast quantities of US Treasury
Bonds probably has something to to with it too, although it beats me why
they do that. I have never really understood macroeconomics, and I am
becoming increasingly sure that the people in charge of economic policy
don't either)
mpruscoe
> Long ago Chairman Mao said, "We will bury you".
A bit before my time, but I thought that was Khrushchev.
Carl
Ooops! You're right! But the Chinese take a not dissimilar view.
Lest anyone think otherwise, my posting made no special pleading (but
it's title was "singularly" misspelt). No business should be
featherbedded. As it happens, to run a straight business in the UK gets
ever harder, since at no point does one receive anything but further
impositions & obstruction each year from HMG. Those run under the
Chinese flag have far less state interference, much lower wage & social
costs & much greater freedom in how they operate - with only the threat
of a bullet to the head should their rip-offs get just too obscene. But
I'd hate to disillusion those who like to think otherwise.
Lastly, it may prove that the D.Tel report contained a certain amount of
spin concerning the claimed financial reasons. I would not disagree,
however, that a very much larger cash sum will accrue to the College
through redeveloping that site for housing or offices than might be
gained from the profitable operation of ERB or any other manufacturing
business in that location. So that's OK.
James Elder
> Long ago Chairman Mao said, "We will bury you".
A pedant writes...
It was Kruschev not Mao. And I think he later said that the Russian-
English translation created a more belligerent expression than was his
intention.
paul_v...@hotmail.com
Regardless: "Let a thousand flowers bloom."
Now the pedantic can take off with that.... [;o)
Mike Sullivan
"Carl" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:er47iu$mo7$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/16/nboat16.xml
There's more to this than meets the eye. It would seem that
there are enough wealthy Eton grads to step in and endow
that program. I'm naturally distrustful of governing boards with
corporate types making decisions and particularly the explanations
of their decisions.
Indeed, in nearby town here, a privately held bookstore called
Keplers went out of business. They simply couldn't compete
with the chains and with Amazon. A community of Kepler's
customers got together and set up a non-profit and put it
back in business, they felt the institution was integral to the
character of the town. It had an eclectic variety of titles, and
emphasized a lot of local writers/poets, hosted readings,
had a coffee shop and very committed, knowledgeable staff.
warm fuzzys all around. I grew up here, Kepler's is where
I used to go buy my Crumb comix, and they were very cool
about putting the porn section out of sight so we teenagers
could browse a bit.... :^)
daniel...@hotmail.com
> "Carl" <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:er47iu$mo7$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
>
>
> There's more to this than meets the eye. It would seem that
> there are enough wealthy Eton grads to step in and endow
> that program. I'm naturally distrustful of governing boards with
> corporate types making decisions and particularly the explanations
> of their decisions.
>
> Indeed, in nearby town here, a privately held bookstore called
> Keplers went out of business. They simply couldn't compete
> with the chains and with Amazon. A community of Kepler's
> customers got together and set up a non-profit and put it
> back in business, they felt the institution was integral to the
> character of the town. It had an eclectic variety of titles, and
> emphasized a lot of local writers/poets, hosted readings,
> had a coffee shop and very committed, knowledgeable staff.
>
> warm fuzzys all around. I grew up here, Kepler's is where
> I used to go buy my Crumb comix, and they were very cool
> about putting the porn section out of sight so we teenagers
> could browse a bit.... :^)
I share the view that it is always sad to see a long standing British
business go under but as has been pointed out, this is a market
economy and the boat builing business is only now catching up with the
influx from far eastern manufacturers. As with everything there will
always be a market for economy products which is where we in the west
will struggle against the far east. I work in supply chain management
and my sourcing strategies have changed over the past few years to
look at the far east as the pressure to reduce costs has intesified.
HOWEVER, there will also always be a market for high performance and
high quality products which is why the UK especially is so adept at
quality niche market products. I imagine Carl will testify that this
"quality" market exists otherwise he too would be out of business!
Henry Law
> "Carl" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:er47iu$mo7$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
I composed several replies to Carl's posts, almost all of which I
completely and vehemently agree with; but I was too upset. And then the
other posts said most of it so I didn't send it.
> Indeed, in nearby town here, a privately held bookstore called
> Keplers went out of business.
But I do have something to add which may in fact also be a comment on
Carl's thesis, and it is that for Kepler's to go out of business because
of competition from the big "A" is completely unnecessary.
My local bookshop (http://www.halebookshop.co.uk - trade with them if
you're anywhere near here, please!) has an online ordering facility
which is run for them by their wholesaler (I presume). The order goes
in on the web, the book is shipped overnight to the local bookshop, they
send me an email and I go in and collect it. I've ordered books at 10PM
and had them by 4PM the next afternoon, no postage and a discount for
ordering on-line. Amazon simply can't compete with that, and the book
stock at the wholesaler's is very large and diverse.
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
marco...@gmail.com
boatbuilding business lose a player. That said and I don't want to
start a fight right here, but I don't believe that is a fault of our
Asian friends if they better meet the requirement of the market.
Now I am not a business person, but you are an example of how the
business can be done. You found your market niche obviously and ERB
didn't understand what the market was calling for.
I don't know their products, but my guess is that if they were any
good they would be used more broadly.
I don't think that there is much of a market any request for expensive
non competitive boats (that sector of the market is already taken by a
certain American boat builder 8^).
There are example of many other boat builder that are still gaining in
the market because they recognize the right strategy to establish
themselves as a major player without moving their factory in china.
I am taking you as an example Carl you decided to go for a quality
product and to have your clients paying for your craftsmanship (high
end products). You can do it because your product is worth it the
money you spend.
Other boat builders are not meeting those standards, but they still
are expensive so there is no surprise when you see that their market
share is shrinking. There are several factor that determine the
success of a product and the rowing business it's not always a
straight-forward market I give you that. But sitting there and crying
because we made marketing mistakes is not helping anybody to improve
things.
It's pretty obvious that clubs need cheap (possibly reliable) boats.
The average European or American product is too expensive. Now as BB
(boat builder) you can decide to go for the high end market and making
your client pay a fortune for one of your products but you have to
maintain the quality really high (or at least make your client believe
so) or you have to study cheaper construction process methods and
market them in the right way (Fluid Design). You can't just sit there
offer what everybody else offer and hope that for some miracle your
product sell by itself.
Even Empacher had to redesign completely their product line to meet
their customer demand and for the longest time they owned the market
of "competitive boats" because they were losing it big shares.
I hope you understand I have nothing against ERB or anybody, but I
also have nothing against the Chinese selling cheaper boats. I did
buy some Chinese boats I did buy some expensive USA and EU boats and
then I was able to find the happy medium. (I believe). I just don't
think that blaming other for our failure to understand the market is
not a good policy.
Cheers
M
On Feb 16, 7:20 am, Carl <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
> A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/16/nboat...
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)
Carl
Marco -
We can be as "realistic" as we like (or as you & Daniel seem to think we
should be), but I think we are on a slippery slope to dependency.
In the UK, because people can produce food cheaper in other countries we
have thrown away the hard won self-sufficiency we once had in
agriculture, & with that go the skills. Ditto in engineering. We kid
ourselves that we can sell each other enough financial derivatives (such
useful items) to somehow keep the financial wheels a-spinning, &
never-endingly trade up the values of our housing stock to underpin our
expenditures, & instead of learning to make things better in our own
lands, so that productive jobs remain on board, together with the skills
& attitudes that go with them we think that a "product" is what we used
to call a mortgage, & a job is what we do in our spare time.
I'd have thought that rowers, better used to hard work & its rewards
than most of western society, would understand that. It's not entirely
obvious to me that we do need a flood of cheap, short-term boats, but
just one look at the state of the US automobile industry shows what
happens when you go soft, think your industry indestructible, lose
national pride in what you make, forget that your neighbour works in the
car plant in the next town (or their kids, or relatives) & think folk
will go on buying gas-guzzlers ad infinitum. Similarly, in the UK we
lost our car industry & think it fine to set food standards for milk
which UK farms must meet, but import milk from central Europe which is
not produced to those standards, nor under the conditions imposed on our
farmers, & which so undercuts in price the actual cost of producing UK
milk that dairy farming here is dying on its feet.
In the UK, manufacture is priced out by its overheads, including rentals
(set by speculation on property values - so easy to turn a work location
into housing or shopping arcades), fuel, services, local taxes, national
taxes, a high-wage economy, no technical training for youth, negative
attitudes to manufacture, high insurance, restrictive social, employment
& health & safety legislation &, finally, currency speculation. In
emerging economies most such costs are much reduced or absent, often to
the detriment of the health & longevity of the workers. So we export
pain to where we won't see it. Thus do we, & shall for a time, both
have our cake & eat it - we mostly live comfortable lives underpinned by
easy access to cheap goods made under sweat-shop conditions at untold
but unseen human cost. And meanwhile we whittle away all the time at
our manufacturing bases. Losing the means, attitudes & skills to
support ourselves, we row troubled waters without that essential inbuilt
buoyancy, because we kid ourselves it won't be needed.
As with all economic cycles, it can't continue one way indefinitely & it
will end in a sharp & nasty bump - don't know how, but current US
indebtedness to China, et al, suggests just one possible scenario while
global warming suggests a few others. When the shit does eventually hit
the fan, our lack of an indigenous manufacturing base, as with our loss
of a farming base, could prove terminal. And, unlike the western
exploitation & ruin of Africa, the mushrooming East (India & China for
starters) is going to outcompete us for resources so that when the going
does get tough we may well find ourselves shut out from what we so
pressingly need. It all comes back to old Aesop & his fable of the
Grasshopper & the Ants.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Henry Law
> When the shit does eventually hit
> the fan, our lack of an indigenous manufacturing base, as with our loss
> of a farming base, could prove terminal. And, unlike the western
> exploitation & ruin of Africa, the mushrooming East (India & China for
> starters) is going to outcompete us for resources so that when the going
> does get tough we may well find ourselves shut out from what we so
> pressingly need.
Carl, I buy a lot of what you say: I'm generally in sympathy with your
analysis. But I'm at a loss as to what to _do_ about the problem.
Businesses are in business to make a profit and they must - eventually
will - do whatever it takes to reduce their costs. If they can get
their product made more cheaply overseas with quality good enough to get
away with it (I choose my words carefully) then they are pretty much
obliged to do it, especially if they are a publicly-held company.
And on another topic, there is a dearth of houses in SE England - that's
why my daughter, along with a million others, has next to no chance of
buying a house for the forseeable future - and so building land is at a
premium. The business that owns the land is obliged - sooner or later -
to get the maximum return out of it and if selling it for building is
that then they should, and eventually will, do it: and that's right by
their rules. So how to change the rules in some way that will really
work and last?
Probably shouldn't discuss this in r.s.r though ...
Gareth Gruenbaum
demise of ERB/the death of manufacturing in the UK/the flood of
Chinese imports, to address many of the direct and implied
inaccuracies that some people fall back on when these topics come up.
Since the very beginning of trade "the attractions of cheap & imported
have swayed" not just the British, but every nation. In the days of
barter, you could have replaced "imported" with "made by someone other
than the consumer", and that led to the founding of trades, and lifted
those people out of the mud. Money came along, as did real
international trade, and the theory of comparative advantage took
over, pushing communities and nations to concentrate on production of
what they had a comparative advantage in. And it seems that we in the
West have done exceptionally well out of it, and despite the hand
wringing, we, as Europeans and N Americans, continue to do well out of
it.
The decline in manufacturing in the UK will have many many causes, but
perhaps the 2 most commonly referred to are government regulation, and
the preference of people not to see a manufacturing job as
attractive. There should be a lot more to gain by focusing on these,
than crying woe over imports.
In particular, Carl has often complained that the UK government has
been regulating manufacturing to death, while at the same time
lamenting the lack of regulation of some nations.
At first glance this seems contradictory, but I think in fact is not,
just a reflection of the frustration felt by someone who feels his
hands are tied unfairly, compared to business owners in some other
nations.
Relatively speaking China can only be considered as a "low-cost, low
safety" nation, but is Carl wishing on them the same over regulation
of which he complains? On a national level, it would seem the UK has
a high level of regulation, which employers don't like, but which has
come about because of the wishes of the majority, ie. workers and/or
the electorate. In China there seems to be less regulation, and it
does seem that working conditions for many people are not at all what
we or they would wish them to be. With the success of Chinese
exporters, this will become less and less, and will start to look more
like the situation in the Chinese boat building industry, which is
nothing like the image of sweat shops that some people like to conjure
up.
I have been dealing with Chinese boat companies since 1999, and have
made more than 30 trips to Fuyang, the town where the vast majority of
boat building goes on. I have visited 5 boat builders, the notable
exception being Wudi, but I have no reason to believe they treat their
workers any worse than any of the companies I have visited. Because
of the success of their exports, the demand for these skilled workers
services is very high, and their incomes reflect this. A couple of
years ago I visited the home of the person in the factory who makes
the riggers for my boats, and he had the biggest wide screen TV I had
ever seen! His school age son is a very good English speaker and is
looking forward to going to university. Every worker is given
protective clothing, gloves, faces masks. The Chinese shareholders of
Swift, are mostly all brothers of one family, and are there everyday,
on the shop floor, enjoying the same conditions as the other workers,
as are some of their wives and other family.
It is simply a decent work place. When I was there in November, the
domestic sales manager came back from Dailan with over a thousand
dollar's worth of crabs in his luggage! You can be sure that all the
workers had an even better lunch the next day, than usual.
But to get back to the wider issue of imports, and protecting
manufacturing in the UK. Where do people stand on importing boats or
any products or services from Germany, Italy, or the rest of Europe?
How about N America? Sure it can countered that they impose similarly
oppressive regulation on their manufacturers, so therefore it is all
"fair", but the net effect is the same. Any product imported from
these countries means a job lost in the UK.
We can even say, "it is OK, because they buy our products in return",
well do they? Do we all end up square? I don't think so. And
anyway, the Chinese are buying huge quantities of high value products
from the "West". Whether it is levitating trains from Siemens,
Italian made shoes, CNC machines from Germany, or aeroplanes from the
US. The Japanese economy for one would be in a much worse state, if
it hadn't been for their record level exports to China.
What do we do when a car plant in the UK closes, while one in Spain
stays open? Do we attack the Spanish? And why should we stop at the
level of the nation? All politics is local, they say. So are we
going to complain when 20 jobs are moved from Kent to the Midlands?
Do we only have our cars washed by recent arrivals from Poland, on the
condition that they send all of their money in the UK, on UK produced
goods?
It is human nature to better oneself, and one's condition. This is
why we persevere with education, training then with work. We are
motivated to improve our standard of living, and of course there are
many other worthwhile motivations, such as taking care of the less
fortunate. The people in low wage countries have the same
motivations, and many people think it is morally wrong to deny them
their chance for self improvement. Just look at the popularity of
fair trade coffee etc. It may be true that what the Chinese gain in
terms of standard of living, we in the west will lose.
I have lost count of the number of time Carl has complained about
"cheap throw away comments", but that doesn't seem to stop him from
doing the same.
=======================================
>> Long ago Chairman Mao said, "We will bury you".
> A bit before my time, but I thought that was Khrushchev.
Ooops! You're right! But the Chinese take a not dissimilar view.
=======================================
With the depletion of resources, and the dirtying of the earth, it is
highly likely that we in the west will need to come to accept a lower
standard of living. And to a degree it is likely true that the more
resources the Chinese and Indians consume, the lower will be that
standard of living. That is a very negative view, and may only be
partly true. It is even acceptable in my view to act on this basis,
but let's be clear about it, this is a selfish argument to keep us up,
and them down. And selfish in the extreme when we consider we are
talking about leisure products.
This is intended as a wide ranging rebuttal to the "don't buy cheap
Chinese shit" argument, not as a one on one with Carl's original post,
but to take another comment from Carl, that is often abused for this
purpose, where do we get off calling another country's "care" low. I
assume that this refers to a low level of essential services such as
health and education. Firstly, at least in the part of China where I
have been, this is just not the case. The level is not as high as the
highest in the world, but I am sure the aim of the Chinese people is
to continue to raise this level, and it won't be too long before they
pass the level in many parts of the UK. So will it be OK to buy boats
from them then?
Secondly, it seems largely impossible to expect any nation to deck
itself out with a fully fledge health service for example, without a
bloody long slog, that includes generations of people having to endure
conditions that to us in the modern day west seem harsh.
And to double back to the "shit" in the "don't buy cheap Chinese shit"
argument, many people seem to be completely satisfied with the quality
of the boats we build, including the 3 gold medal winning crews from
China in last year's Asian games, and the girl from Poland who got
gold in the W1x in the World University Champs. We have a quality
control system in place, and you can be sure that a lot of time and
effort is being spent to make our boats better and better.
As for ERB, I think they were always vulnerable. In some ways they
looked in an enviable position, having the college behind them, and a
guaranteed minimum level of sales, but on the other hand, they were
expendable. It was shame that they were not moved earlier to lower
value premises more in line with the cut throat business of building
boats. Through no fault of the workers, their jobs were lost.
Eric Sims very kindly contacted us with the news, and let us know that
he would be operating a repair service, which our customers are also
most welcome to make use of. For sure we will be glad to refer our
customers to him and his remaining employees.
And regards the high cost of anything in the UK, I am amazed that we
are competitive enough to export anything at all. The effect that
land prices have on everything that we do here is terrible. Freeing up
a fraction more land for non agricultural use should have a massive
positive influence on bringing residential and business land prices
down, thus bringing down the whole cost of living, and with it the
need to earn so much just to put a roof over our heads. (Thus
enabling Henry's daughter and everyone else to buy their own home.)
By doing this we make our own products and services so much more
competitive, increasing exports and bring down our dependency in
imports.
My name is Gareth Gruenbaum, I started Rowing Center (UK) Ltd, in
2002, and now with Blair Clow, my partner, I import Swift rowing boats
from China. I am also a director and part owner of Swift itself. My
first involvement with rowing as a business was when in 1997 I started
a company in Toda, just outside Tokyo, called J2, that imports rowing
products from all over the world.
I have lived in Japan since 1992, and one of my motivations for going
there, that I have by and large kept quite, is that as a teenager
growing up in the 1980's (born in 1970), with stories about the Yellow
peril constantly in the air, I intended to go there and do my best to
reverse the slide in the UK/Japan balance of trade! Quite an
ambitious 17 year old I was.
A few more years life experience, and first hand experience of the
crap that some UK companies call products and the bullshit attitude
that those same companies call customer service, and I realised that
turning around the balance of trade was going to be more than I could
manage.
Instead, I have learned a great deal about customer satisfaction, and
quality control from the Japanese, and am doing my best to make use of
this in the Chinese rowing boat business.
Incidentally, another reason for going to Japan was that I didn't want
to like in a country stupid enough to elect Margaret Thatcher 3 times.
After 15 years in Japan, I am now looking forward to moving back to
the UK some time later this year. So as we say in Japan YOROSHIKU
ONEGAISHIMASU, O SEWA NI NARIMASU.
Jonathan Anderson
> OTOH their surviving repair service works well and is to be
> recommended (all those Chinese imports need a lot of after-sales
> service).
I'll second that about the repair service.
Jon
--
Durge: j...@durge.org http://users.durge.org/~jon/
OnStream: acco...@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/
[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]
anto...@aol.com
>
> read more »
A very interesting and revealing contribution. Your first hand
knowledge of the working conditions are most interesting. However I am
surprised at your dislike of Thacherism. The Iron lady set up the
opportunity for Entrepreneurism and small business which you have
benefitted from. She also built the economic ground worlk that the
worlds greatest salesman Tony Blair has ridden on the back off while
the Japanese economy has floundered in recentl years.
Gareth Gruenbaum
> A very interesting and revealing contribution. Your first hand
> knowledge of the working conditions are most interesting. However I am
> surprised at your dislike of Thacherism. The Iron lady set up the
> opportunity for Entrepreneurism and small business which you have
> benefitted from. She also built the economic ground worlk that the
> worlds greatest salesman Tony Blair has ridden on the back off while
> the Japanese economy has floundered in recentl years.
Well, entrepreneurism will flourish even with the help of Thatcher's
obsession with supply side economics, and the accompanying fallacy
that is "trickle down" economics.
And although things seem good these days, we are still paying the
price of social exclusions and disenfranchisement that is the result
of the long term and permanent unemployed.
I think this is a price that wasn't worth paying.
That we have had good growth for many years can be seen as the
positive effects of Thatchers policies, or just as easily it can be
seen as an economy getting back its strength after being shrunk. A
case of the cure almost killing the patient.
And there are so many problems with the Japanese economy I wouldn't
know where to start!
Gareth Gruenbaum
Sorry, that should have been;
Well, entrepreneurism will flourish even withOUT the help of
Henry Law
> Hello. I'd like to take the opportunity of this discussion on the
What a very interesting and welcome post. I don't agree with all of it
but it's good to have it there. Where have you been, Gareth: we could
have done with your posts in this group before!
Carl
<the big snip ;) >
> After 15 years in Japan, I am now looking forward to moving back to
> the UK some time later this year. So as we say in Japan YOROSHIKU
> ONEGAISHIMASU, O SEWA NI NARIMASU.
>
I really did enjoy that, Gareth! Straight from the heart & a great
response to my provocation. No, I didn't agree with all of it, & I
don't think it addressed my fundamental concerns. I did agree with
quite a bit of what you wrote & could hardly fail to warm to your
comment on the Grocer's daughter - who thought manufacturing could
safely be erased & that ours could be a "service" economy.
Babelfish couldn't translate your doubtless impeccable Japanese, so a
translation would be most welcome.
I don't buy the yellow peril view, nor ever did. The West demonised
China, like silly school-kids, partly to justify brutal colonial
adventures there. You've represented China well, yet I still recall
horror stories brought back by in recent years folk with who's watched
Chinese shell building. Yes, things must & will continuously improve in
China, & we have lessons to learn here for sure. My criticism was more
of how we in the West conduct ourselves - we can't regulate for China,
but could with real long-term advantage be more circumspect about
crapping on our own folk. That means taking a longer view, not
protectionism.
China's has been tied her Yuan to the US$ &, but for 1 re-alignment, so
it remains despite US objections. This damages the US trade balance &
the US$ has slumped against Sterling/Euro over the last 2 years, further
enhancing China's advantage, & you, a good salesman, must rub your hands
with glee. But this kills whole sectors of western economy, from nuts &
bolts (literally) to high-grade CNC machining, to foundry, to textiles,
etc. And that devastates economies of emerging nations.
China has commendably clear objectives. And I don't criticise you,
despite your recoil from your youthful idealism, but please remember
that only ~25% of the electorate elected that politician who disbelieved
in society. Our grasping short-termism ignores the gaping holes it's
blowing in the fabric of our industrial base but, when it's gone, it's
gone & one day we'll sorely to regret its demise. We sniff at
manufacture, despise science/engineering training, & our technical
illiteracy grows; our cars are imported, as are our phones, computers,
clothes & nearly every other manufactured item, yet we feel no concern.
The Chinese are Aesop's industrious & frugal ants, while we are his
merry, carousing grasshopper, & winter may come sooner than we think.
If nothing cataclysmic intervenes, China (& India) will eventually get
soft like us, or lose their way like Japan, but too late to save us, I fear.
John E
with China makes me believe that Carl partly misunderstands the nature
of what is happening.
My company has designed products for UK manufactures for the last 23
years and I believe passionately that an economy without manufacturing
at its core is fatally flawed.
However the nature of what we manufacture has to change, primarily
because people here have earning expectations that are 5-10 times
higher than their counterparts in China. The UK can only successfully
make products in years to come if one of the following apply:
1. The products involve so little labour that higher cost of UK
machinery, buildings, etc is balanced by not having to ship the
products from China.
2. The products are sufficiently innovative that they can be sold at a
premium price.
3. The manufacturing volumes are so low that they are not attractive
to Chinese manufacturers.
4. The goods are bespoke or too bulky to ship.
>From what I have seen in China over the last few years I would make
the following observations:
1. There are some issues with exchange rates but the fundamental point
is that people in China are happy to work for salaries that are a
fraction of those in the West and this is why manufactured goods are
so inexpensive. This also feeds though into the cost of their
production equipment - CNC and injection moulding machines cost less
than half what they do in the West.
2. Wages are rising but they will be kept in check for the next 30(?)
years by the fact that there are another 1.1 billion people who
desperately want to join in China's economic development (only 150-200
million are currently involved).
3. I have seen factories with health and safety practices and working
environments that match the best in the West. However on average most
factories look rather '1970s'. However, given the rate of change that
I have seen even over the last 3 years that gap will close pretty
quickly.
4. The Chinese are currently focused on being 'the factory of the
world' but they are as innovative and imaginative as we are and are
already moving on from this starting position. Given the number of
engineers and designers that they are producing it is only a matter of
time before they are mainly producing goods that they have developed
themselves. This means, for instance, that the design/quality issues
of early Chinese boats will soon be a thing of the past. Remember how
early Japanese motorcycles were considered a joke and then products
like the Honda 750 and Kawasaki Z1 came along and proceeded to wipe
out the appalling British motorcycle companies and go on and conquer
all before them.
5. I agree with Carl that at some point Chinese wages will rise to a
level where they match ours. However that is likely to take 30+ years
and we just can't sit around waiting for that to happen...... We need to
do exactly what Carl himself has done. Develop niche, high quality,
low volume products and sell them at the upper end of the market. I
am certain that in 5 years time all 'club' boats will be made in China
and only a few upmarket brands will continue to be made in the West.
Personally I find this all very sad but we must address the world as
it is, let 'me too' manufacturing go and concentrate on what we can
successfully do.
crs_r...@btinternet.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Where is the problem with boats imported from China! I know all
manufacturers there and most of these companies will supply you with a
good build boat for good prices. Fair enough. All this boats are
either a copy of Empacher or FISA designs. ERB also copied Empacher,
Vespoli and FISA designs. Europe and the UK is not a place to copy
catch! In a high labour cost country you can't copy products of any
industry and trade.
The advantage of developed industrial countries is innovation in
products and to take advantage out of this. Get the production
organised and you are a strong competitor.
Companies like Vespoli, Hudson, Empacher, Filippi, Carl Douglas and
now CRS are successful with their own designs and product identity.
The only problem I have with imports from China is when a UK company
claims to run a boat production line on the quality standard of a UK
racing car manufacturer and in truth the boats are made in China, they
are the same copies of existing designs but soled under a UK
recognised company name for UK made prices.
Gunther Borutta
CRS - Cambridge Racing shells Ltd.
www.crsrowing.com
JY
> Where is the problem with boats imported from China!>
Check out this thread http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/84299822ca28486d/?hl=en#
Agree with your comments about Lola though.
crs_r...@btinternet.com
> > Where is the problem with boats imported from China!>
>
>
> Agree with your comments about Lola though.
You get what you pay for! Nobody can expect to get a top end quality
boat for a low cost price.
Gunther
S M
Whilst plugging away at some research for a lowly service sector job
this morning I came across this and thought bullet points 4 and 5 might
make vaguely satisfying reading for Carl...
John Mulholland
news:117182336...@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> Gareth Gruenbaum wrote:
>> Hello. I'd like to take the opportunity of this discussion on the
>
> What a very interesting and welcome post. I don't agree with all of it
> but it's good to have it there. Where have you been, Gareth: we could
> have done with your posts in this group before!
>
He's been in Japan! It takes longer for the e-mails to reach us. ;>)
--
John Mulholland
A Camrower
assume they are pulling out of racing boats too??
If so then Gunther will not have to worry about them as competitors for much
longer.
Andy
<crs_r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1171880286.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
ncmo...@yahoo.co.uk
> As regards Lola, with all their recent "Clearance Sale" advertising can we
> assume they are pulling out of racing boats too??
> If so then Gunther will not have to worry about them as competitors for much
> longer.
>
> Andy
I understand that that is correct - Lola are pulling out of
manufacturing/selling rowing boats. I wonder what will happen to the
Aylings name?
Lawrence Edwards
>
>
A very sad day for UK rowing. Our club (St Andrew Boat Club, Edinburgh)
managed to scrape together enough money to purchase a new 4 last year and
after quite a bit of research we opted for an ERB International. Not only is
the boat excellent, but the customer service was second to none. I contacted
various other manufacturers who were not even interested enough to give a
professional and prompt quote! Not only was the price good but Eric makes
regular trips to Scotland to deliver and collect boats and will repair
things promptly and to a very high quality.
I do think it's unfair to blame the accountants - and that's not just
because I am one! If the business was losing money and sitting on a very
valuable property then the Trustees of the College have very little choice.
They would be acting outside of their fiduciary duty if they allowed a loss
making business to absorb funds which should be used for charitable purposes
(i.e. education). Even Eton College has to comply with Charities Act.
If you go to the big regattas I see very few Chinese boats around, although
clearly they are beginning to gain market share. I don't think the Chinese
boats have proved themselves yet to be as high quality and durable as US or
European boats. Maybe they will in time. We still use an Empacher 8 which is
perfectly servicable despite being 8 or so years old. If I were to buy
another 8 for use by top crews I would need to know that it would last and
could be repaired by the people who built it. I would have no hesitation in
ordering an ERB!
Lawrence
Nick Suess
<ncmo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> I understand that that is correct - Lola are pulling out of
> manufacturing/selling rowing boats. I wonder what will happen to the
> Aylings name?
I Suppose Ay Ling Racing Boats sounds Chinese enough
Teaplant
> making business to absorb funds which should be used for charitable purposes
> (i.e. education). Even Eton College has to comply with Charities Act.
Or put another way, it would be an abuse of charitable status to make
a loss since it means that ERB were knowingly not charging enough for
its products/services. This constitutes an unfair price advantage
against those companies that *have* to make a profit to pay its staff
and overheads. Eton College has certain financial privileges on
account of its charitable status and therefore it cannot offset these
against the production costs of Eric's boats to allow him to undercut
his competitors (intentionally or not).
Its very sad but he seemed to get caught in the doldrums between the
durable-club-boat market and the top-end-uber-boat market. Fighting on
two fronts at once - argh! Is there room for anything inbetween now
that second hand uber-boats are easier to buy and sell?
teaplant
crs_r...@btinternet.com
Andy,
It's not to be worry about competition!
It's, from my point of view, a rip of to purchase per example a Single
in China delivered on your doorstep inclusive tax for around £1000 and
sell it as UK made high quality boat for over £4000. The gross profit
on such a boat is more than Janousek ask for a Single made in the UK.
Even with those 'stock clearance' discounts the profit is still
enormous.
You can by a China made Single elsewhere for a bit over £2000 with the
same fabric lay-up and the same hull design.
If you read the adverts careful they say that they change the
supplier. If you have a supplier for boats you are not producing
boats, or?
There is more to come of this if not the Office for fair-trading will
stop them. There are laws to protect customer against such behaviour.
Gunther
crs_r...@btinternet.com
> <ncmorr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
Aylings is registered at 'Company House' to be gone in Liquidation in
2004 and Aylings is not longer a trading company! Somebody is still
using this name to pretend there is still this company. Also LOLA-
Aylings is not a registered company!
Who they are?
Gunther
ncmo...@yahoo.co.uk
> Aylings is registered at 'Company House' to be gone in Liquidation in
> 2004 and Aylings is not longer a trading company! Somebody is still
> using this name to pretend there is still this company. Also LOLA-
> Aylings is not a registered company!
> Who they are?
>
> Gunther
Altanet Technology Ltd is the actual company behind the Lola-Aylings
trade name.
ncmo...@yahoo.co.uk
> Altanet Technology Ltd is the actual company behind the Lola-Aylings
> trade name.
Apologies for replying to my own post, but it's worth noting that the
registered address is the same as for a number of the Lola group
companies, in Huntingdon.
crs_r...@btinternet.com
Interesting,
Altanet Technology Ltd. produce and service
Communications Equipment - Satellite Systems
Radar - Equipment
Satellite - Equipment
Not that much to do with rowing racing boats!
I'm wondering how a company
Lola Ayling Limited
Hollow Road
Ramsey Forty Foot
Huntington
PE26 2YA
got registered at noble marine insurance as 'repairs & supplier' when
such a company don't exist!
Also the trade name LOLA-Aylings is registered by somebody else but
not by Altanet Technology Ltd.!
Very strange to me!
Gunther
Carl
There is a presumption, in some comments in this thread, that ERB was
unprofitable. I'm by no means sure that this was so.
Less "profitable" than property speculation, for sure. But less
profitable than what would be expected in a functional manufacturing
business? I'm not so sure, although I am open to correction.
So, what mightn't a Russian oligarch bid for a much larger chunk of Eton
College? If everything is for sale to the highest bidder, isn't that
the way to go. Pssst! Want to buy London Bridge, or Big Ben & its
clocktower? Garage sale of Heritage Britain starts next week.
What will that sort of approach achieve for future generations? We
shall always need manufacturing capabilities, yet formal training for
manufacturing/engineering is in deep neglect. Small wonder that we &
other manufacturing businesses struggle to find people adeqately
qualified & motivated to fill reponsible, well-paid manufacturing positions.
Meanwhile, society stratifies itself in a manner Orwell would have
recognised.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
ncmo...@yahoo.co.uk
Not really that strange. I assume that Altanet is a Lola group
company, just like Aylings became after it was bought. I know that the
Lola group is involved in making fibre-moulded parts for naval
vessels, such as radar housings etc.
Lola-Aylings do repairs and as such they are approved by Noble Marine.
Maybe calling it Limited is a mistake on the Noble Marine website, I
don't know, but it does make it clear to us the consumers who Noble
are recommending. If they put up Altanet then no-one would know that
that meant Lola-Aylings.
I think it is fairly normal for a large group of companies which
operates in different markets to have various trade names and company
names behind them. It is really just branding/marketing and not
malicious at all. You are still buying the boat from the same person.
I should say I have no link to Lola-Aylings. Just bought some of their
clearance boats for our club and I am very pleased with the deal that
we got.
carol...@aol.com
I disagree that ERB are victims of cheap Chinese imports. Their
problem is that their boats were more expensive than some other
British / European makes (notably Janousek) without being as good as
the best ones. Our club, for example, buys Janouseks for general
club use and Ray Sims for top crews.
>From my limited experience of Chinese boats, I would not buy any more
at any price. The quality just isn't good enough.
It is a shame that ERB are to fold, I wonder if it might have been
possible to rescue them with more investment, better marketing or
whatever. They do an outstanding job of repairing boats (though
again, not the cheapest) so they will continue to get some custom from
me at any rate.
Caroline
anto...@aol.com
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Carl
BBC Website was talking about a Conspiracy Theory TV program....Did
you see it?
If Eric said they lost Money, I expect the lost Money.
Carl
No, I don't do conspiracy stuff - any more than I believe those loons
who say 9/11 was all a US Govt plot because the structural steelwork
couldn't have reached melting point!
Let's just say that my sources have indicated to me that maybe not
everything in that D.Tel report was entirely accurate. I could be
wrong, but they could be right.
None of that, however, affects the generality of the points I was making
above. A very good financial argument might be made for selling off
other chunks of Eton College, so why not?
Cheers -
carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
paul_v...@hotmail.com
> A few more UK jobs have just been binned:
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)
Every time this damn topic pops back to the top I have a flash of
concern that a college classmate (Ray Oen) has lost a family member.
[:o\
- Paul Smith
Carl Douglas
>
>
> Every time this damn topic pops back to the top I have a flash of
> concern that a college classmate (Ray Oen) has lost a family member.
> [:o\
>
> - Paul Smith
>
No fear, Paul. It's what the classically-educated oenophile says on
draining yet another bottle of his favourite tipple.
C
Emily
> other chunks of Eton College, so why not?
>
> Cheers -
> carl
>
Because Eton is a charitable trust with a duty to provide education
(which would not be possible if big chunks of the estate were sold
off). It doesn't have any duty to make money by selling boats but, as
someone's already pointed out, the trustees do have a fiduciary duty
to manage the trust's funds and properties responsibly in order to
support the educational purpose of the trust.
IPS
Jon Cork soon after he moved to ERB in 1978. Bob Janousek studied this
boat when he was getting into the boat building business, and its
sister boat was rowed by Pete Zeun at the lightweight world
championships. My boat is still in perfect condition.
Carl Douglas
Which was, after all, exactly why Eton College Boat House came into
existence - as a business to provide the equipment & facilities for
students to row. This matches the description given on:
www.etonrowing.org.uk/Rowing%20Guide.htm
Eton College Boat House has for a very long time also sold boats outside
the college. And the educational aspect of this is underlined by the
fact that sport is now considered an important part of any school's
curriculum. So a sound case could be made for keeping the business
alive, with its profitability (if it were in question) a separate,
management issue for the college to resolve, as is the profitability of
all other Eton-owned activities.
IIRC, the last traditionally built clinker eight, "The Monarch", was
built there last year - for a traditional Eton festivity. Don't suppose
there'll be any more of them.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Nick Suess
"Carl Douglas" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:erfo35$bs$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Ah, so that's it! Thanks for the cryptic clue, Carl. All those coffee time
crosswords at CDRS have clearly not been in vain!
Oen looks like suspiciously like it might be one of those odd miscegenated
place names that occur along the meandering swathe of otherwise very fine
country where Vlaanderen and la Wallonie butt suspiciously and
unharmoniously up against one another. Perhaps the location of some ancient
but minuscule monastery at which a small but dedicated team of cleanly
tonsured monks brew a powerful but sour Gueuze or Lambic, or maybe a mighty
Trappist Ale.
In fact, there is a tipple called "Oerbier", which is produced by De Dolle
Brouwers. It is indeed a sour ale, re-fermented in the bottle to yield a
modest 9% alcohol content! The brewery is at Esen, near Diksmuide, and Oeren
is a nearby hamlet. I recommend you all to http://www.oerbier.be . My
geographical prediction is spot on, as it's in Vlaanderen by little more
than a hair's breadth, but the manufacture is secular, not monastic. I
strongly suspect that after more than a small glass of this beer, its name
becomes involuntarily abbreviated to "Oen", and I can visualise how, as Carl
meticulously sucked the very last drop from a bottle, accompanied by a fine
belch of satisfaction, "another Oen bites the dust" seemed an altogether
appropriate pun to bring a wry grin to his cherubic countenance as he
concluded his very late evening.