Rowing vs. Kayaking
m
discussion of this comparison. A few questions to launch things:
1- What is the difference in performance?
2- Why aren't shells more common for touring/recreational use?
3- What are the differences in attainable fitness benefits?
4- Why/When would one choose one over the other?
Please feel free to add to these questions.
In looking at the Easy Rider website it seems that they offer at least
one series of convertible craft. You can rig it as a shell and row,
or as a kayak and paddle. If competition is not a requirement, this
seems like a great deal of versatility. I'm not sure what you'd loose
though.
-Martin
ze...@zekehoskin.com
> I don't want to start an argument here, but rather an informed
> discussion of this comparison. A few questions to launch things:
>
> 1- What is the difference in performance?
Therefore, up to a few hundred meters, rowing is faster. As you run
into aerobic limits, some of the advantage disappears, and the
kayaking stroke is slightly more efficient. Looking at the results of
fairly long mixed open-water races, in smooth water, rowing is still
very slightly faster. As soon as the water gets rough, kayaking is
faster.
>
> 2- Why aren't shells more common for touring/recreational use?
hassle to grab a paddle than to rig a shell.
>
> 3- What are the differences in attainable fitness benefits?
aerobic limits and get cardiovascular improvement.
>
> 4- Why/When would one choose one over the other?
row/paddle with, and what the water is like. Where I live (Puget
Sound), most people choose kayaks. I row.
Mike Sullivan
"m" <martin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192554843....@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>I don't want to start an argument here, but rather an informed
> discussion of this comparison. A few questions to launch things:
>
> 1- What is the difference in performance?
Depends on what you mean by performance. Given a equal athletes
that are well trained in competitive boats, rowing is faster than kayaking
at every distance except a standing start short sprint.
For beginners, rowing has some obstacles in learning to overcome
so paddling is faster.
>
> 2- Why aren't shells more common for touring/recreational use?
1. Too much overhead to learn, to launch, to carry around. Kayaking has
rowing
beat hands down.
2. kayak touring is much more fun as you can see where you're going.
3. touring is often done in social groups, it's very difficult to have the
skills
for groups of scullers to row together and talk, and point to things,
very much easier in kayaking. heck, it's easy to pull boats together to
give your SO a smooch.
>
> 3- What are the differences in attainable fitness benefits?
Depends on what you mean by fitness benefits, logistics, etc.
The important thing about fitness is to be able to do it regularly
over a long period of time. If you join a club of people you like,
you will be more likely to show up and do it long term no matter
what your choice of weapon. There are a lot more rowing clubs
with organized training sessions than paddling clubs with organized
training sessions. If you are on your own, it is easier to get a kayak
on any given body of water than a rowing shell, so it may be easier
to do long term.
If you are looking for strong aerobic development, then go with
rowing as you are looking at using large muscles of the legs and
being able to train more hours. At rec levels of a few hours
a week, either one is equal.
>
> 4- Why/When would one choose one over the other?
It depends upon what you want out of it. If you want to get
right to it, go with kayaking. Rowing requires a lot more overhead
in learning/rigging/shell transport, etc. to get to where
you can train at it.
I can teach a decent athlete to paddle a surfski in one day
and they can be doing hard workouts the next. Sculling
takes a longer time to get to where you can do actual workouts.
At our club, rowers have to follow traffic patterns, paddlers
do not. There's a nice advantage!!!!
>
> Please feel free to add to these questions.
>
> In looking at the Easy Rider website it seems that they offer at least
> one series of convertible craft. You can rig it as a shell and row,
> or as a kayak and paddle. If competition is not a requirement, this
> seems like a great deal of versatility. I'm not sure what you'd loose
> though.
It depends upon what you want. That boat is an inferior kayak and
an inferior rowing shell. If you want to do both and only have one
boat - great!!
If your goal is to get on the water, get a little exercise, then just
about any boat will do.
Mike
m
> an inferior rowing shell. If you want to do both and only have one
> boat - great!!
Well, I've been rowing for exactly a year now. It's getting cold and
windy, so it will be back to my drysuit "experiments" of a year ago
(you might remember my posts from back then). Rowing at the lake in
choppy/violent cold water in Santa Ana conditions is not a lot of
fun. Paddling in those conditions is lots of fun (at least for me).
Last year, when I got started, if you remember, I was using my Alden
Horizon with the stabilizing floats. That worked out OK.
Particularly considering what the weather was like when I got
started. It would have been almost impossible to do so without the
floats. I used them for about three months. Being that I am self-
taught, I think that this was a reasonable approach to getting
started. The floats have been collecting dust every since then.
I would not, BTW, recommend that anyone purchase this boat. It's a
long story, I'll just say that I'll never buy anything from Alden
again.
Now I'm looking to move from the Horizon into something else. I
thought I would do this earlier, but it really just started to make
sense a couple of months ago. I still have a lot to learn.
I am not interested nor will I ever get into short-distance (is it
2Km?) competition. I could possibly consider something like the MDR
to Catalina race within the next couple of years (not to win but to
participate and complete as a goal/challenge). The question is what
to get. I already have a couple of sit-on-top kayaks. They are fun
but slow. I would think that the Easy Rider boats would be better
than my Ocean Kayaks and, yes, better than the Alden Horizon. So, in
one boat I would have a better kayak and scull. Is this assumption
wrong?
The alternative might be to buy a Maas 24 for rowing during fair-to-
mild weather and a nice kayak for off-season. I'm not opposed to this
idea.
Off-season here means Santa Ana winds and violent chop at the lake. I
find that chop like this is very different than rowing in open water
(which I've already done) where you deal with swells rather than short
choppy waves.
These are probably bad analogies. The best I can describe it is that
the ocean with mild weather is like driving on an undulating road
(like highway 138 going to Vegas) and rowing on a small lake during
"foul" weather is like going offroad with a rally car. The ocean
during foul weather would probably be more like being in a blender!
Not something I am interested in unless I did it in a submarine!
There's always the C2...but there's a good reason the thing is
collecting dust in the garage...it just ain't that much fun.
-Martin
Mike Sullivan
I remember you now. Did you ever go get sculling lessons?
Without seeing your boat choice up close, it doesn't look
a lot different than your Alden, except it's fiberglass instead
of molded plastic.
Is that boat rowable if it fills up with water?
It is really difficult recommending boats to people because so
much depends on what they want to do with it. Even
with your description, it's not clear.
The Maas company makes good boats, they are very rowable,
the Aeros and 24s have been heavily open water tested and
ppl swear by them. The company has good customer service
and there are a couple very good dealers around who also are
very helpful. (I'm not one, btw)
If you are going to row/paddle regularly year round, you are
looking to do this athletically then your
ultimate choice will be either an Aero or 24 and a surfski.
Surfskis have different hull shapes, I suggest a flatter bottom as
it's more friendly to side chop than the elite models. They
are built for open ocean racing and for surfing open ocean swells.
again, this is if you are approaching rowing/yakking from an
athletic POV rather than recreation on the water.
Can't really help you for the latter.
carol...@aol.com
wrote:
> "m" <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Re your question 3 (recreational and touring rowing), it is extremely
common in continental Europe, where something like half the rowing
population are recreational rowers. The boats used are wider than
racing shells, but the best ones have the same "feel" apart from being
more stable. The most widely used are coxed quads, which are also
ideal for teaching beginners - half a dozen sessions is usually enough
for people to get the basic technique right and start to enjoy
themselves. All right, I know that's longer than it takes to learn to
propel a kayak, but not everyone is looking for instant gratification!
The advantages of touring in this type of boat (i.e. the coxed quad)
are:
1. One person coxes while the others row. You change round every 30
- 40 minutes so that everyone gets a rest.
2. It's very social. 5 people get to talk to each other in the boat
and you meeet up with the rest of the group when you go through the
locks.
3. The boats are stable enough for people to stand up (preferably not
the whole crew at once!) and take photographs
4. There's enough room for picnic baskets and crates of beer
The word is spreading in the UK at least, where 60 people joined the
ARA tour last month on the Thames and more and more clubs are
investing in this type of boat.
Caroline
Ewoud Dronkert
> Re your question 3 (recreational and touring rowing), it is extremely
> common in continental Europe, where something like half the rowing
> population are recreational rowers. The boats used are wider than
> racing shells, but the best ones have the same "feel" apart from being
> more stable. The most widely used are coxed quads
Here is the latest Dutch national quad, in a recreational race, in the
"C4x+" or "C4*": http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-59215.html
Article: http://www.nlroei.nl/displayarticle-1927.html
Previous high profile competitors:
http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-43952.html
http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-24392.html
--
E. Dronkert
Mike Sullivan
<carol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192623792.3...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 17, 1:32 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>> "m" <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1192578008.6...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> It depends upon what you want. That boat is an inferior kayak and
>> >> an inferior rowing shell. If you want to do both and only have one
snip
> Re your question 3 (recreational and touring rowing), it is extremely
> common in continental Europe, where something like half the rowing
> population are recreational rowers. The boats used are wider than
> racing shells, but the best ones have the same "feel" apart from being
> more stable. The most widely used are coxed quads, which are also
> ideal for teaching beginners - half a dozen sessions is usually enough
> for people to get the basic technique right and start to enjoy
> themselves. All right, I know that's longer than it takes to learn to
> propel a kayak, but not everyone is looking for instant gratification!
Here in the colonies we are quite backward as to the proper
way to enjoy rowing.
"touring" here generally means cruising around a beautiful area for
a day, stopping to picnic perhaps, but generally a 1/2 day trip
on a lake or estuary or along a coastal area.
m
At the risk of being wrong, I'll say that this concept simply won't
fly in the US. There are many activities for which the club concept
seems to be prevealent in Europe and not in the US. One that comes to
mind are model airplanes. Lots of club-type activity in Europe and
nearly none in the US. The only reason clubs are formed are to secure
a flying site, and that's about it. I think that American culture can
be a lot more individualistic than communal at times (there are great
exceptions to this, of course).
Going back to rowing, it seems to me that the only "clubs" are
university rowing programs. Which, by their nature, are competitive
and closed-off to non-students. I also find it interesting that some
of the local universities have rowing programs for women and not for
men. I wonder what the cultural context might be. Just like football
(soccer) was popularized as a young women's sport for a number of
years in the US where in the rest of the world it had been most-
decidedly a male-dominated sport since inception.
There's also the issue of distances. At least in the Los Angeles
area, if there's a club open to non-university-students you'd have to
drive quite far to get there. Which can be prohibitive. You would
think that guys like Xeno would for for-profit clubs and teach people
to row on water (and take trips, etc.) but his activities revolved
around ergs in a room, rather than boats on water. That's got to say
something about the popularity (or lack thereof) or accessibility (or
lack thereof) of rowing on water as a sport, at least in this region.
If I had to resort to stereotypes, I'd say that, for cultural and
geographic reasons, recreational rowing in the US is mostly a private
sport rather than something done in groups or clubs. I'd be very
interested to find out that I am wrong.
-Martin
Mike Sullivan
>> The most widely used are coxed quads
snip
> If I had to resort to stereotypes, I'd say that, for cultural and
> geographic reasons, recreational rowing in the US is mostly a private
> sport rather than something done in groups or clubs. I'd be very
> interested to find out that I am wrong.
You'll be happy to know that you are most definitely
wrong!
club rowing is a hugely popular and expanding phenom
here, though largely in the master's rowing arena.
Indeed, the commitment a person makes to rowing goes
up exponentially if they get involved in a master's team.
Individually sculling is very difficult to do over a long period
of time, and my focus at the Clear Lake club has been to
try to get a dedicated core of people to meet a couple times
a week to take out a team boat (guess what, a coxed quad!)
While I do an outstanding job of teaching sculling and
safety in singles, ppl want to be social. Team workouts
in singles are hard to manage for most people, and as
the numbers of people expand, the logistics of the number
of small boats to launch, and to store become unwieldy.
I counted three clubs in Marina Del Rey, one each rowing
out of each college boathouse, and one rowing from Cal YC.
Within 3 hrs drive of my office here at Stanford I know of 16 rowing
clubs (not counting the universities) which support adult
rowing in team boats, sculling, or both.
m
> > geographic reasons, recreational rowing in the US is mostly a private
> > sport rather than something done in groups or clubs. I'd be very
> > interested to find out that I am wrong.
>
> You'll be happy to know that you are most definitely
> wrong!
You are right, I would be happy to be wrong about this. I wonder if
there's a difference between northern and southern Cal on this? Also,
how about the rest of the country? I think northern Cal has much more
of an aquatic culture than SoCal. Again, maybe another off-base
generalization of mine, but every time I go to SFO and watch the
activity in the bay I see a marked difference between that and
anything I've seen out of, say, MDR. Maybe San Diego compares better
to your area? It's four hours away from me, so it doesn't count.
This line of thinking prompted me to research the topic again.
I found out that LARC has sculling but no coaching orclasses. UCLA
MAC is weird because, if you call them they'll tell you that they
don't have classes open to the public, but everyone else tells me that
they do. I have a new number to call tomorrow that might settle this
one. Then there's the Lions Rowing Club at Loyola Marymount. All of
these options are basicly 60 miles away, which make them prohibitive
outside of weekend bi-weekly or once-monthly event. I could see
making the effort to go for a class spanning a few weeks, but as a
regular affair, not easy unless rowing is your life and don't have
kids.
-Martin
JY
> I don't want to start an argument here, but rather an informed
> discussion of this comparison. A few questions to launch things:
>
> 1- What is the difference in performance?
>
doing it once in a fairly low performance double with a K2 right
behind us. Spent the entire race eyeball to eyeball with these guys. A
bit off-putting! Any way we were pretty equal in speed over 10 mins or
so. I think they were close to international standard, so on this one
piece of unscientific evidence I would say a double is faster than a
K2.
m
> piece of unscientific evidence I would say a double is faster than a
> K2.
What's a "K2"?
-Martin
J Flory
Mike Sullivan
2 man kayak,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/graphics/gallery/olympics/fri27/kayak1.jpg
typically it references flatwater sprint boats as pictured above, but
I was informed by whitewater person that it also is used
in whitewater.
a...@irow.com
I'd back this one - a K1 is faster up to about 150 metres, or more
than about 10k.
We have a number of v. good paddlers out of our shed, with a couple of
national teamers here and there, and they're very fast over the
shorter distances, but as it gets longer, a good sculler will work
through them and put distance in reasonably quickly.
I would add the caveat of over 10k though - they do a mean line in
wash-riding (analogous to drafting on a bike) and switching over
leads, which means that they move pretty quickly and efficiently over
a long distance.
Mike Sullivan
<a...@irow.com> wrote in message
news:1192751785.5...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
How does this get tested?
This has been tested many years ago. I trained in a single with paddlers
who were
on nat'l team. If I did SS work at 20-24 they could draft and work along
with me but they needed me to set the pace. It was nice because I didn't
have to look around as much.
I frequently did work of 15 mile workouts where they could not stay
even with drafting, where I was working hard aerobic, and adding
bursts, 4 minutes @ 24 with a 20 stroke flutter at 32-34, then shift.
I could keep my HR at 150-160 that way.
I think where paddlers might compete is at a long slow SS pace
where a sculler might be at a very low aerobic pace for 10k plus, and
where paddlers are at a similar physiological effort and use drafting.
This was at a time when 10k races were part of the flatwater
program, so it wasn't like they were only training for sprint.
I've seen results of some races where scullers and paddlers are in
the same mix over an hour or so (which is roughly 10k). The
best paddler will come in a few mins after the first sculler,
(of course beating many other scullers). 4 mins doesn't seem like
much unless you are the one trying to stay up with someone who's
4 mins faster than you over 10k.
m
Mike Sullivan
yep, water recreation and spending money.
No discipline, nothing to offer the greater world.
Mike
Henry Law
> 4 mins doesn't seem like
> much unless you are the one trying to stay up with someone who's
> 4 mins faster than you over 10k.
Maybe it's just Friday-afternoon fever but this gave me a much-needed
laugh. It's so laconic.
I thought Brits were supposed to be specialists in masterly understatement?
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
ze...@zekehoskin.com
wrote:
> "m" <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Mike -- I think that designing a pedal boat fast enough to set
records, or pedaling one that hard, requires a certain amount of
discipline.//Zeke Hoskin
m
I'm not sure that I agree with that at all. Sure, some of the Human
Powered Vehicle stuff is goofy, but a lot of these guys have been
working very hard for many years to optimize their craft and the
understanding of what works and what doesn't. A lot of these guys are
engineering students learning about real-world engineering through the
disciplined and systematic attack of this problem. I certainly
wouldn't characterize them "no discipline" and/or having "nothing to
offer the greater world". Look at the work of Professor Mark Drela at
MIT, for example.
As a recreational sculler, when viewed from the perspective of a
dedicated competitive rower, I probably have no discipline regardless
of the fact that I have been working very hard to learn the sport and
become reasonably good at it. Does that make the activities,
interests and pursuits of people like me worthless or unworthy?
The "to offer the greater world" part when, at the risk of offending,
sculling, in the grand scheme of things, has not and does not have
much "to offer the greater world".
The test is very simple: What would happen if the sport disappeared
today? Fforever. Not much. There are plenty of other competitive
activities to get involved in that teach all that is good in
competitive sports. Hydrodynamics of boats would still be very well
understood and it would be studied through other types of crafts. Not
a loss that would affect the world in a significant way.
Now, if MRI machines, antibiotics and microscopes disappeared today.
That would be a loss ... so, they have something "to offer the greater
world".
Just my humble opinion.
-Martin
Carl
That'll depend on who wins the rugby final tomorrow, Henry
:)
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey, Surrey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Mike Sullivan
<ze...@zekehoskin.com> wrote in message
news:1192814520....@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
A certain amount of discipline is required to learn or
do just about anything. Designing a water craft to go faster
than any other requires a lot of engineering discipline.
Going out and buying it and pedaling it around requires
considerably less. Now, if there were thousands of those
craft around and they met for regattas and you had to train
14-20 hrs a week to be competitive in those regattas,
that would be discipline.
Mike
Mike Sullivan
>> No discipline, nothing to offer the greater world.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree with that at all. Sure, some of the Human
> Powered Vehicle stuff is goofy, but a lot of these guys have been
> working very hard for many years to optimize their craft and the
> understanding of what works and what doesn't. A lot of these guys are
> engineering students learning about real-world engineering through the
> disciplined and systematic attack of this problem. I certainly
> wouldn't characterize them "no discipline" and/or having "nothing to
> offer the greater world". Look at the work of Professor Mark Drela at
> MIT, for example.
I wasn't aware that the pedal boat pictured was an
engineering speed project which does require discipline
and has much to offer.
>
> As a recreational sculler, when viewed from the perspective of a
> dedicated competitive rower, I probably have no discipline regardless
> of the fact that I have been working very hard to learn the sport and
> become reasonably good at it. Does that make the activities,
> interests and pursuits of people like me worthless or unworthy?
It's worthy for you. What does it do for your community?
For example, I am a pretty decent bodysurfer, and of course, I
row and teach rowing. I enjoy doing both. Indeed I am competing
in a bodysurfing contest this weekend.
I consider my activities in rowing to be a discipline and that
it benefits the greater world, meaning people other than me.
This is manifested in the programs I've started and run,
and the teaching.
My bodysurfing is a selfish pursuit where any benefits to the
greater world would require some sort of stretch of rationalizations.
It has nothing to do with the activity, but the approach.
When I competed at national level, it was a selfish pursuit
that benefited no-one, but the work I invested contributed in
part to the rowing world at large, just by trying my damndest
to be as fast as I could.
>
> The "to offer the greater world" part when, at the risk of offending,
> sculling, in the grand scheme of things, has not and does not have
> much "to offer the greater world".
Sculling in and of itself doesn't, but the discipline of trying to
mold one's body and spirit to be the fastest sculler one can be
does.
>
> The test is very simple: What would happen if the sport disappeared
> today? Fforever. Not much. There are plenty of other competitive
> activities to get involved in that teach all that is good in
> competitive sports. Hydrodynamics of boats would still be very well
> understood and it would be studied through other types of crafts. Not
> a loss that would affect the world in a significant way.
Sculling could probably disappear and individual scullers could
then compete in running or swimming or something else. I
think team boat rowing is pretty unique.
>
> Now, if MRI machines, antibiotics and microscopes disappeared today.
> That would be a loss ... so, they have something "to offer the greater
> world".
In it's pure form, achievement in athletics is a venue for testing the
human spirit in a safe outlet. It's not just the time invested. I was
at my daughter's championship swim meet last Feb. One of her
teammates missed NCAA qualifying by 3 secs in the 500. She
beat my daughter by a good 15 secs, but my daughter beat her
lifetime best by 10 secs. My daughter was ecstatic about it, and
was physically shaking with excitement when she hugged me. Her
teammate was sobbing in a corner.
I told her, 'that's tough for xxxx, she was so close'.
She replied, "well she swam faster last year, but last year she did
all the training, this year she could have skipped some parties and
made all the workouts, it would have made a difference'.
Keep in mind, this girl who was so disappointed trained MORE time
than most NCAA competitive rowers. She trained dozens more
hours weekly than the typical master's rowing competitor, but
was a competitive 'failure'.
This girl is a fine athlete, a really good student, a great person, a
competitive failure.
pretty hard, isn't it?
>
> Just my humble opinion.
mine too!
You know, when we see studs like Marcel or Xeno go
out and win sculling races it's really fun to see how fit,
strong, and well they row.
The impressive quality of their success does not exist
in a vacuum, though. They sit on top of hundreds of
other guys who train just as hard, who care just as much
about going fast, but just don't go as fast.
These guys who got their asses kicked, who worked just
as hard contribute to the meaning of the impressiveness
of the talent, training, competitiveness of the winners.
Mike
Mike Sullivan
>> No discipline, nothing to offer the greater world.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree with that at all. Sure, some of the Human
> Powered Vehicle stuff is goofy, but a lot of these guys have been
> working very hard for many years to optimize their craft and the
> understanding of what works and what doesn't. A lot of these guys are
> engineering students learning about real-world engineering through the
> disciplined and systematic attack of this problem. I certainly
> wouldn't characterize them "no discipline" and/or having "nothing to
> offer the greater world". Look at the work of Professor Mark Drela at
> MIT, for example.
Another comment about the above. I am friends with the
guy who spearheaded the 'gossamer albatross' project many
years ago (the human powered flight across the English Channel)
and have huge respect for this discipline.
They advanced science, and advanced thinking about human possibilities
and was an incredible achievement. Mort is one of the most
brilliant people I've ever met, and I have nobel winners in the
building I work in.
If one of us jumped in the albatross and pedaled it around in the
air for a new experience, for fun, and exercise that is nowhere
near the same thing.
regards
Mike
Walter Martindale
> Henry Law wrote:
>> Mike Sullivan wrote:
>>
>>> 4 mins doesn't seem like
>>> much unless you are the one trying to stay up with someone who's
>>> 4 mins faster than you over 10k.
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's just Friday-afternoon fever but this gave me a much-needed
>> laugh. It's so laconic.
>>
>> I thought Brits were supposed to be specialists in masterly
>> understatement?
>>
>
> That'll depend on who wins the rugby final tomorrow, Henry
>
> :)
> Carl
>
it away to the French...
W
m
> air for a new experience, for fun, and exercise that is nowhere
> near the same thing.
Agreed. I know one of the lead guys in the Daedalus project. A
similar human-powered airplane project. The book "The fullness of
wings" relates that story. Very interesting.
I think that when we say "HPV" as it pertains to boats we tend to mean
"radically different human powered boats" ... 'cause a shell, a canoe
and a kayak are, after all, "HPV's". The only respectable
unconventional HPV boat out there that you can buy and ride, as far as
I am concerned, is the Hobbie model with the flippers and the foot
pedals. I've seen it go, it does pretty well. Guys fishing at the
lake love it. Everything else (commercialy available) seems to be
lame tourist-trap cycle-boat type stuff. A lot of the interesting
boats come out of out-of-the-box university groups or individuals hell-
bent to do something different. In both of those cases nobody gets to
just get in and pedal away, lot of work and ingenuity is involved.
I guess we agree after all.
-Martin