WHAT SCULL TO PURCHASE?
Longrow
What are the groups thoughts on the following sculls- Hudson Elite,
Filippi Italia S, Empacher K series or Sims Evolution.
Feedback re qulaity, lifespan, stiffness, ease or repair and parts,
quality of customer care, ease of rowing
Thanks
LR
Jim Dwyer
that the old tube riggers. The boats are excellent quality, last a long
time, have a great resale value and are very stiff and parts are always
avaliable. I am lucky to live in London and the repairs turn around for me
is usually one day! Customer care is great. They are great rowing boats.
I have rowed in a softer boat that was very comfortable and easier to set up
that a Hudson but not as stiff as the Hudson.
Jim
"Longrow" <longr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Andrew Weaver
If you are talking about buying a new Sims be sure to ask where it is
made. My money is on it not being in the UK.
I have rowed Filippi and Empacher sculls and don`t think there is much
to choose between them. They seem to last similarly well and are about
as stiff as each other. Although if you have to repair them getting
matching yellow paint is harder than white.
I do not have any experience of Hudson or Sims sculls.
If I were you I would try the boats if at all possible and see which
you like.
Andrew
Stuart
So many boatbuilders are boatsing these days go on and on about how stiff
their shells are, and about how they meet these fisa requirments when
tested. They brag thewir boats are the best and stiffest because the way
they build their boats using special materials it makes it super stiff...
Blaa blaa.
Well at our club we have a a few old boats in the region of 5 to 10 years
old, and I was wondering for interest sake if there is any way we can test
the stiffness of the shell? We have an eight thats about 7 years old and you
can see the shell shake and flex if the crew do not get their blades out
together at the finish. But thats on the water with peole rowing in it and
there are so many factors that come into play that I want to test it in a
bit more of a controlled enviroment. We also have a few doubles and fours of
different construction that I would interested in find out some figures.
Does anyone know of any methods, or link to a site that would have some
diagrams and documents about how to test the shell(s)?. Also to see how
those really old wooden boats last over time compared to the more modern
construction boats.
Thanks
Scott C
Nick Ablitt
>>A simple question
>>
>>What are the groups thoughts on the following sculls- Hudson Elite,
>>Filippi Italia S, Empacher K series or Sims Evolution.
>>
>>Feedback re qulaity, lifespan, stiffness, ease or repair and parts,
>>quality of customer care, ease of rowing
>
>
> If you are talking about buying a new Sims be sure to ask where it is
> made. My money is on it not being in the UK.
I think they're all made in Nottingham, does anybody actually know
anything different.
>
> I have rowed Filippi and Empacher sculls and don`t think there is much
> to choose between them. They seem to last similarly well and are about
> as stiff as each other. Although if you have to repair them getting
> matching yellow paint is harder than white.
You can buy the actual Empacher paint, don't think that is really an issue.
Longrow
Thanks guys for this info.
I have read that the paint quality of the Hudson is poor and does not
last as well as the others. Any comments.
What do people think of wing rigger, traditional 3 strut riggers and
the carbon fibre 2 strut type.
I have rowed an Empacher and liked it a lot. The Italia I have no
experience of but I have heared a number of rowers suggest they and
Empacher are the "benchmark" sculls for quality and durability.
I have to say I think the Filippi web sites - both the Italian version
and the WWMarine UK versions are much more infomative and helpful than
Empacher.
For info most of my rowing is not on six or eight lane courses -
rather lakes and canals
I suppose the bottom line question is which boat would you guys spend
£4k or £5k
There must be more of you rowers out there with some thoughts or
experiences of these makes.
Thanks
LR
jean.vanhersecke
To my point of view Empacher is the best for durability, stability and
stifness
But Filippi is the best to race in, you feel like you're flying
Sims is not as good for racing (altough the last 4s are not bad at all), but
the best for durability... and maybe a bit cheaper especially for you guys
living in england
You can always try WM or Web, other german companies...
I think i'll stick to Empacher as i am not the best single sculler ever.
Jean V
Randal Lawrence
"Stuart" <fivefort...@SPAMiinet.net.au> wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
><snip>
>
> Does anyone know of any methods, or link to a site that would have some
> diagrams and documents about how to test the shell(s)?. Also to see how
> those really old wooden boats last over time compared to the more modern
> construction boats.
>
> Thanks
> Scott C
>
>
A couple of years ago there was a photo of an 8 on two stands with the
whole crew sitting in it. I think it was an Empacher with a large German
men's crew aboard. It would certainly weed out the weak boats in your
fleet (destructively).
But seriously, to measure actual stiffness you will need to make a jig
that holds a boat firmly in various places (because a boat's stiffness
varies along its length), and then you can use weights to cause
measurable deflection. Don't forget torsional stiffness as well as
linear (in at two axes). Once you have done that, you can look the
harmonics as the shell returns to its neutral position.
It might be easier to get your (experienced) crew(s) to row in several
boats to find the model that best matches their style of rowing, and
then hope their rowing style doesn't change too much.
Cheers,
Randal
Matt Kaminski
bought an Elite Hudson single a few years ago. I love the boat. Easy to row,
responsive, quick and very user friendly.
The boat has been stored outside (under small roof) in Florida for those two
years and no problems with the paint. Looks just as good as it did when the
plastic came off. Have just got a new cover for it to help storage and
travel.
Cannot say anything about lifespan but cannot see any weakpoints. Service is
good and can recommend the boat and company. That and you can't beat the
sexy colours.
Best advise though is to get in as many boats as you can since most of the
choice is personal preferance.
Matt
"Andrew Weaver" <ajwe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9339d24f.03071...@posting.google.com...
Turtle
produced some great results in their shells. They are very durable and very fast. I would put a lot
of condideration into buying one of these boats over any other boat. Since being a devoted
fluidesign fan, I cannot say much about the other boats. If you can, get your hands on an older
hudson shell, pre 1999, and get a new rigger on it. Their quality of boats has gone down over the
last few years, but they still produce a nice looking boat. But pound for pound, and if you want to
go fast, then condiser a fluid.
MPJ
Andrew Weaver
> > made. My money is on it not being in the UK.
>
> I think they're all made in Nottingham, does anybody actually know
> anything different.
I know a few people who have visited the Sims factory in Nottingham in
the last 6months who did not see much evidence of boat building going
on. Added to that I have heard rumours that they have links with a
boat builder in China. It might be that Sims are playing the same game
as Aylings and not being entirely honest about where the boats are
made.
Which is why I would check. It may just be ill founded rumours. And is
certainly not to say that is not possible for boats made in China to
be just as good as those made in the UK.
> Although if you have to repair them getting
> > matching yellow paint is harder than white.
>
> You can buy the actual Empacher paint, don't think that is really an issue.
Ah, guess it just has not reached Japan yet. Empachers repaired and
then painted white in part look a little silly.
Andrew
Tony Curran
You don't say what weight you are. Most boatbuilders have three moulds. Lwt
woman, Lwt men/hwt women and hwt men. There are only two I know of that have
more than that, both Carl Douglas and Fillipi have six. This is VERY
important. Most heavyweight sculls are made in the range of 170lbs to
220lbs - thats a huge dfifference - which also means it is more likely made
on the heavy side of 200lbs. A displacement of a boat will vary by approx.
3mm for every 10lbs of crew weight. So that soon adds up in additional drag
if you are too heavy for a shell or too much above water if you are too
light.
My racing weight is about 200lbs. I bought a 92kg Carl Douglas - which has
the traditional two stay rigger and an abundance of adjustability. That was
in '98 - it still looks like its just off the mould. I 've never needed to
take my boat back to the boatbuilder.
Think very hard about what you want from your boat, not what you see
crossing the line first at the "Olys". One of those things should be
durability. Another correct weight. I know Hudson only cuts down his HWT if
you want a mid-weight boat.
I live in Canada and I see a lot of Hudsons...may be send me an e-mail to
ask what I think of them.
Tony
Ottawa RC
"Longrow" <longr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Tony Curran
boathouse, grab hold of the bow ball and see how far it moves before the
boat lifts off the supports.
Tony
Ottawa RC
"Stuart" <fivefort...@SPAMiinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3f167101$0$23590$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
sue t
I've had my midweight single for 2 1/2 years, no major issues.
ALL carbon fibre, so extremely stiff.
Extremely tough too ... despite a couple of mishaps, I have only a few
scratches on the paint.
Extremely easy to repair, if it ever needs repair. I do all my own boat
maintenance, rigging, etc.
I love the bow mounted rigger.
Quality of customer care from Gord Henry is excellent. Accessible,
responsive, helpful, friendly, and so forth. He makes me feel as if I am
his only customer, although I know that isn't true!
Ease of rowing ... well, it took me a bit to adapt to it. It is very
sensitive to the rower's movements, so you must have a decent stroke to row
it well. Now that I've learned how to row, we get along much better.
Starts are extremely fast as the boat doesn't flex under the power. A
little disorienting at first, but now most excellent!
My main complaint is the seat. I think I may buy a Carl Douglas Lo-Glide
seat.
....................
sue
Joe Tynan
also described what the tested, and how they tested it. You can find
the whitepaper on the testing at their website, www.pocock.com
Joe
Randal Lawrence <randal....@telstra.com.ANTISPAM> wrote in message news:<randal.lawrence-FB...@mail.netspeed.com.au>...
Caroline Turnbull
Somewhat surprised to find that Mr. Douglas has not responded yet -
but perhaps he is feeling a bit embarrassed about causing major
traffic jams on the M25! However most owners of his boats will tell
you that they are the best, and they are certainly the most beautiful
boats in the world.
CT
chris harrison
wrote:
> Somewhat surprised to find that Mr. Douglas has not responded yet -
> but perhaps he is feeling a bit embarrassed about causing major
> traffic jams on the M25! However most owners of his boats will tell
> you that they are the best, and they are certainly the most beautiful
> boats in the world.
Might Mr Douglas not be 400 miles north of the M25? I'm assuming that
Strathclyde Park doesn't offer wifi access ... :)
Henning Lippke
> You can always try WM or Web, other german companies...
You probably mean VEB, or BBG as it is called today. If I was to buy a
'plastic' boat, I would try the new BBG Olympia X type.
This new boat is supposed to be very stiff & light (but of course not
lighter than others...FISA minimum). I'm waiting for the first test
report.
The customer support of BBG is much better than of Empacher (sorry to
say that, but that's what customers say).
Anyway, don't forget real composite boats: wood/kevlar. Very nice.
Links:
www.bbg-bootsbau.de
http://www.exbiz.net/perl/BBG/fpimages/web02.JPG
(BBG)
www.carldouglas.co.uk
http://www.my-boathouse.com/bilder/ax/DSC00009.jpg
(wooden)
-HL
Henning Lippke
> Somewhat surprised to find that Mr. Douglas has not responded yet -
> but perhaps he is feeling a bit embarrassed about causing major
> traffic jams on the M25! However most owners of his boats will tell
> you that they are the best, and they are certainly the most beautiful
> boats in the world.
Carl is busy building shells to please the increasing number of orders,
I presume. :-)
Or he is doing very careful customer service, a point not to be missed.
What I have forgot to mention is the extreme stability of the Douglas-
shells. One of our older (15 yrs) fell off its slings (~2,5 m high) and
has only suffered a small dent in the stern. Has been repaired by an
amateur locally and you only see it when you know that there has been
something made.
-HL
Harry Powell
single scull.
If you are looking to race internationally, then I think you should
get whatever your fellow racers are using. That way, when you line up
at the start you will not doubt that your equipment is at least as
fast as anyone else's.
The problem is that the two boats that fit the bill, Empacher and
Fillipi may not be right in all circumstances.
Firstly, they degrade over time. If your boat is a longer-term
investment than just the next 3 years, you may want to be looking for
a boat with a longer shelf life.
Degradation happens to all aramid (Kevlar) boats as a result of UV.
Carbon boats are much more resistant and last longer. Moreover, I
think both Empacher and Fillipi use Kevlar weave in a wet lay up,
which is (relatively) heavy and (relatively) weak. The more modern
designs use pre-preg unidirectional carbon which, because it is
lighter allows the boat builder to put more strengthening into the
boat for the same weight. Resolutes and the new Stampflis do this, and
their boats are remarkably strong. The disadvantage of this kind of
super-stiff strength is that the boat can be a little uncomfortable to
scull. Moreover the new materials have only been introduced in the
last few years and I don't know whether there is any hard evidence
that the boats continue to perform.
I own an 8-year-old Carl Douglas which is as stiff and fast as the day
it was made. A mate of mine, who has won a number of UK Nat Champs
Golds, until recently raced an 18 year old CD at top level. These are
the only boats which remain in top level competition over this period
of time, to my knowledge.
The other factor you should consider is where the boat is made. When
it breaks/ when you crash it, how are you going to get it back to the
builder, and how long will you be without it? This is really
important, especially if you are competing seriously. On this basis
you could be best to get a Hudson if you are in Canada, an Empacher if
you are in Northern Europe, or a Fillipi if you are in southern
Europe.
If you are in UK, it may be tricky. Obviously I like CD boats, and in
my opinion they are the fastest, toughest, longest-lasting boats money
can buy anywhere. But I know that some people are suspicious of the
furniture-thing and that's fair enough. I have been impressed by the
build quality of Stampflis and also of the (much maligned!) 2Kv and it
may be worth speaking to AylingsLola about their new boats. If you are
to buy a Sims, then all I can say is be very careful that you are
getting the level of quality that one should expect from a boat of
that price.
Longrow
This is all good feedback. Fluidesign I hear are nice boats but again
I am interested in ease of repair in the UK if I hit something
hard!!What delivery time might there be?
Empacher, Filippi and Hudson are still on my list. I still seem not to
be getting all you Husdon, Empacher and Filippi owners coming back
with hard info re durability, qulaity of parts and customer
support.The bottom line is would you buy one again if you had the
choice .
Come on and tell be the good the bad and the ugly side of owning and
maintaining these boats.
Regards
LR
Carl Douglas
May I take this opportunity to apologise to our many friends in
Scotland, & our many friends making their ways to Scotland for the
Nationals?
For the very first time we are going to miss to the Nat Champs Row Show
:>(((
We are not playing hard to get. Nor are we helping Police enquiries
into traffic chaos near J13 of the M25, nor fending off the EU's
Competition Commission, as so maliciously implied by a certain
Aberdonian golfer & dental expert ;^).
Nor, as may be rumoured north of the Border, are we hiding from
assassins out for revenge against the centuries past activities of the
notorious Black Douglas.
The truth is more prosaic:
Partly due to personal commitments, particularly because we have much
work on hand for clients - we decided with regret that we should not on
this one occasion divert what, at that distance, becomes almost 3
person-weeks into the effort.
However, we do remain open for calls & at your service for visits &
personal service in our remote southern fastness near Heathrow. And we
are aware that, our clients being distributed around the globe, many
will also be absent from or ineligible for the British National
Championships.
So, if you had wanted to see us at Strathclyde please accept our
apologies. If you needed our urgent assistance please call us. And if
you'd wanted to discuss boats, riggers, seats, slides, repairs, etc.
please call us.
We hope the Championships are a wonderful success, that the course
remains benign, the weather fine - & that our clients there do even half
as well as all those who, from several nations, won their events in CDRS
shells at Henley Vets this year.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Jim Dwyer
You missed my report on the Hudson. I have been rowing for over 35 years
and I have rowed in many 1x's (all of the major companies) and Hudson is the
best for quality and performance and price.
Jim
"Matt Kaminski" <mkam...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:UbHRa.122090$ic1.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
HBW
You are a long time Fluidesign employee so you shouldn't use this forum to
take quality jabs at competitors. We would put one of our Hudsons against a
Fluidesign anyday (fit and finish, consistency,stiffness and quality of
components. We pride ourselves on our quality and workmanship which shows in
both our customer satisfaction and the high price used ones fetch as well as
the confidence felt by National Teams such as Canada and USA in our
products.
HBW
"Turtle" <mattp...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:nvhehvce9v4bdso6g...@4ax.com...
John Davis
by different tests and compared their boats with one anothers as well
as Resolute and Empacher.
I believe Vespoli measured the flex downward on the rigger as you
described, Randal, apparently with some serious guages of flex or
strain. Pocock put a pully system from oarlock to oarlock in adjacent
seats on opposite sides and measured the flex or strain, saying this
was a more representative way to measure rigidity. Of course, both
builders said their boat was stiffer.
JD
Which system is better i
Randal Lawrence <randal....@telstra.com.ANTISPAM> wrote in message news:<randal.lawrence-FB...@mail.netspeed.com.au>...
Edgar Cove
"Tony Curran" <tony....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:aiIRa.5288$eP6.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> A simple test for small boats, 1x and 2x-, whilst upside down in the
> boathouse, grab hold of the bow ball and see how far it moves before the
> boat lifts off the supports.
I would say that if a 1x flexes at all under that test then it is seriously
limp.
Edgar Cove
"Harry Powell" <harry....@oba.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dc7c72b3.0307...@posting.google.com...
> I own an 8-year-old Carl Douglas which is as stiff and fast as the day
> it was made. A mate of mine, who has won a number of UK Nat Champs
> Golds, until recently raced an 18 year old CD at top level. These are
> the only boats which remain in top level competition over this period
> of time, to my knowledge.
My CD is about 14 years old and shows no signs whatever of losing its
stiffness. It contains Kevlar laminates but these are protected from UV by
the outer skin of wood and no sign of any degradation is apparent anywhere
on it.
Turtle
I am a high level rower, and have the right to say what I want about any boat. I am not taking any
jabs at you. You make good boats, but you have made better. That is all I am saying. I am not
pushing Fluidesigns. A guy asked about boats, so I told him. Thanks for your time.
Matt Jensen
Ewoud Dronkert
> I am a high level rower, and have the right to say what I want about any boat.
You should have at least mentioned you work for Fluidesign.
Turtle
foremost.......I have and will continue to row all kinds of boats. But once again, just saying what
I have seen over the past few years and relating to my own experiences.
Matt Jensen
Longrow
Thanks for the Carl Douglas supporters club. Great boats but I am not
sure about UV light and kevlar. CD boats are bulit with Kevlar as are
Fillipe and Empacher. Convince me which is better - all my club mates
say go for an empacher or filippi. I am still to be convinced so carl
is still in their with a shout.
I never thought spending £4k or £5k would be so hard!!!!!!
Regards
LR
I have a spy in the Fluidesign camp and they are good boats but a
certain person has blown their cover and the company. Sorry fluidesign
but a strong no. Be honest and up front about your products - do not
hide.
>
> -HL
Henning Lippke
> Thanks for the Carl Douglas supporters club. Great boats but I am not
> sure about UV light and kevlar. CD boats are bulit with Kevlar as are
> Fillipe and Empacher. Convince me which is better - all my club mates
> say go for an empacher or filippi. I am still to be convinced so carl
> is still in their with a shout.
Yes, CD boats include Kevlar, but it is covered by wood on the Custom
singles. The white boats...I'm not sure about the CD-X. Never seen one
in action.
We have quite a lot CD boats around here, from different ages (all
wooden/kevlar).
- 1x 15 yrs old, revarnished 3 years ago, still no structural problems.
- 1x 13 yrs old, also revarnished, feels like my new boat
- 2x 7 yrs old, also no problems here, in regular regatta use.
- 1x 10 yrs old, also behaves as know (so the owner says)
- 1x 9 months old, (mine). Only thing to criticise is that the slides
require very much care to keep them clean after the first 6 months.
Compare the last two here:
http://www.my-boathouse.com/bilder/ax/DSC00014.jpg
So, the only thing that changes over time is the colour of the boat.
The boat in front now looks more like that in the background.
There are some more boats here, no problems with durability.
Not to mention the joy of rowing them...
-HL
John Davis
> boathouse, grab hold of the bow ball and see how far it moves before the
> boat lifts off the supports.
Tony, I am not certain this is a test of the most important component
of stiffness, which I believe is a combination of rigger and torsional
stiffness. Whether the hull flexes over the length of the keel is not
as important as if any boat's riggers bend and unbend under the strain
of the rower(s) and, in a 4 or 8, whether the hull twists under that
strain. Both of these represent direct loss of power, while the keel
flex represents a change in the shape of the hull at the waterline,
which while important, may not have such a negative effect on speed or
application of power.
I have seen real noodles with strong riggers go quite fast, but I do
not recall seeing a boat with weak ribs or flexing riggers do so.
JD
Neil Wallace
"Edgar Cove" <svob...@online.no> wrote in message
news:IMXRa.7145$os2.1...@news2.e.nsc.no...
No, it would have to be infinitely stiff not to flex "at all". Whether it
flexes enough for perception by human eye/measurement a different matter.
Carl Douglas
>
>Thanks for the Carl Douglas supporters club. Great boats but I am not
>sure about UV light and kevlar. CD boats are bulit with Kevlar as are
>Fillipe and Empacher. Convince me which is better - all my club mates
>say go for an empacher or filippi. I am still to be convinced so carl
>is still in their with a shout.
>
>I never thought spending £4k or £5k would be so hard!!!!!!
>
We would not try to steer you one way or the other. The right way to
buy is to talk to users, to builders, & then to view and try. Beware of
those who try to bully or talk down to you, or to denigrate their
opposition. Ask why some offer only copies of others' products. Listen
to what clients say about after-sales service (we're all fallible, since
we all work too hard, but some try harder). All reputable builders can
point to significant wins in their boats at top level, but beware those
who major on this aspect, or claim the wins for their boats rather than
for their clients.
Kevlar (R) & kindred poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide fibres are an
integral part of many well-built makes of shell. They (&/or the related
Nomex (R) paper honeycombs) are used in many racing shells. Variants of
Kevlar are also widely used in sails; threads, ropes & shipping hawsers;
protective clothing (including helmets, cut-resistant gloves & sleeves,
& bullet-resistant clothing); brake linings; large & small structural
laminates; etc. It would be hard to do without the stuff nowadays.
A couple of years ago an arrogant novice boatbuilder, to injure his
competitors, made ludicrous claims of rapid mechanical deterioration of
Kevlar. That was malicious, self-serving crap. Decent, competent shell
builders have great mutual respect & feel no need to knock their
competitors.
Ultra-violet light is well-known to damage organic (carbon-hydrogen
based) materials, including skin, leathers, linen, cotton, rayon, nylon,
wood, paint, lacquer & bonding resins of all kinds. All structural
laminates are bonded with resins which are to some degree vulnerable to
the UV in sunlight, just as our bodies are. An intelligent user of
Kevlar in laminates recognises the desirability of protecting not only
the Kevlar, but also the epoxy and other resins which bond those
laminates. And like sunbathers, if they use their wits they apply
appropriate sunscreens if they want their products to last well. For
boats those sunscreens will be paints or UV-filtering lacquers.
In my experience any structural deterioration of rowing shells is
entirely due to poor design & build quality. This can include: inept
use of unidirectional fabrics (excellent materials if intelligently
used) leading to longitudinal cracking of hulls & overlying finish;
inferior structural &/or laminate design leading to local over-stress;
failure to comprehend the particular fibre mechanics & bonding issues of
Kevlar; poor lamination practices with inadequate resin distribution,
poor laminate compaction or resin under-cure; inadequately protective
surface finish. I have seen no shells, even quite old ones, which have
shown failures due to physical deterioration of Kevlar itself.
Concerning our own shells:
We have been using Kevlar for well over 20 years, always in conjunction
with co-laminated wood cores. We minimise its light exposure but, where
it is exposed, it is very well protected.
Unlike others, we use wood veneers for our laminate cores as part of our
"Active Core" structural design. In most shells inner & outer layers of
cloth are separated by 3mm or so of Nomex honeycomb or expanded PVC foam
sheet. Whereas those last 2 cores provide only mechanical connection
between the 2 cloth layers & contribute nothing to the essential
longitudinal mechanical properties of the complete shell, our aligned
wood fibre core performs both of those functions _&_ makes a major
contribution to the longitudinal strength & stiffness of the shell.
There is more to it than just that, but that is the underlying principle
behind all variants of our shells. We find that this construction gives
particular advantages of stiffness & durability - with apparently no
down sides.
HTH
Mark Campbell
superior. They are worth 25-50% more than carbon boats in my opinion,
but market forces mean you in Europe get them for the same price - a
total bargain. You could always paint them yellow if it makes you feel
better (they really do go only as fast as you pull them along I'm
afraid). Pity about the exchange rate with the Pacific peso - why is
our dollar worth so little when everyone knows Orstylya's the best
country on earth?
:-) Bruce from the sheepdip
Longrow
I agree with your thoughts re CD boats. First class and that is a
fact.
I would suggest that Filippe and Empacher are as good if not better.
Check who wins all the racing silverware. Ask why these boats are used
more and why do they win more. Must have something to do with design
and quality. CD does not suggest they wear out.
Perhaps we can have a debate as why these boat are so good
LR
Still thinking re what scull to get down to 2 or 3
Ron Ingraham
Hi Matt,
You probably don't remember me. I talked with you about a year ago at
the FIT boathouse area. I am (was) president of the Island Rowing Club,
which was evicted from Kiwanis Island August 30,2002. Still no
resolution to that problem.
Jim Rudd suggested that I take a look at your Hudson Elite, which I did.
It certainly is a neat looking boat. Exactly what model year is it? Do
you know when they went to the rounded hull-to-deck joint? Also when
they went to the wing rigger.
I've been looking for a fairly new used one, but so far the only ones
turning up are in California, or Canada. I wondered if you might know of
anyone wanting to sell one. I check Row2K and Hudson every day, but
haven't seen anything new in the last week or so.
Jim's boat is a '99, which I believe has the sharp hull-to-deck joint
and the tubular wing rigger. Your rigger appeals to me, so I guess that
will be a determinant as to what year-model I need to get.
Anyway, I'd appreciate any information you can give me. I had been
considering a Vespoli Matrix 27, but Jim really seemed down on Vespoli.
I know he's planning to sell his Vespoli Double, so I guess that says
something. Do you have an opinion there? What seems to be the main
problem with Vespoli?
Thanks for any time you can take to answer me,
Ron Ingraham
Ron Ingraham
builder of the Peinert 26, was testing a variety of singles belonging to
Craftsbury for longitudinal stiffness. He had a simple rig, which
mounted a vertical post at each end of the hull, with a string
connecting them. The string was about 12 inches above the seat deck,
between the riggers. He took a measurement with the boat empty, and took
it again while placing his weight in the boat at that point. I should
mention that the boat was in the water by the float during this test.
The difference was obviously the vertical deflection of the hull. I
won't mention any manufacturer's names, but a couple of the worst
deflected in excess of two inches. I don't know if they deflect further
with the weight in them underway, but would guess that it is possible.
Offered for whatever it's worth.
BTW -I row a Peinert Elite, vintage 1985, every day. I can see no lack
of stiffness in the boat at that age. It is a kevlar, honeycomb layup,
painted to protect the kevlar.
Ron Ingraham
Neil Wallace
news:aabc6f2f.0307...@posting.google.com...
snip
> LR
>
> Still thinking re what scull to get down to 2 or 3
I doubt you will find the answer here, my friend.
The fact is, comparing singles is almost impossible.
I think if I were given the luxury of determining what was "ideal" for me, I
would want to try several different rigs, on several different makes, in
several different conditions, for at least several weeks each.
That process would take perhaps 6 months, at which time, my technique would
have altered, and I would need to go back to the beginning.
Read John Poland's article on the 2KV website. I am not convinced by all he
says, but I wholly take the point that it took weeks for him to become used
to the shell.
I think all you can ask for on a newsgroup such as this is customer care,
durability, subjective satisfaction and repair turnaround speed.
I did exactly that 2 years ago, and bought a Carl Douglas as a result.
That decision was _probably_ right for me (How should I know for sure
without the tests from paragraph one?).
You seem to be looking at a top level boat.
I would say they are Empacher, Fillipi, Carl Douglas, Stampfli, BBG, Paul
Slade, Hudson, Fluidesign, Sims, Aylings/lola and 2KV. (did I miss any?)
I would be proud to own any of the above, all are apparently just dandy, and
you will get used to whichever you choose.
Good Luck. Please report back on your findings of Levels of Service, finish
and your first impressions of how it handles.
I bet you buy an Empacher. Hacker is a good advert for them isn't he?
Neil
Ed
rest and will hold up better than most.
Ed
Carl Douglas
>> superior. They are worth 25-50% more than carbon boats in my opinion,
>> but market forces mean you in Europe get them for the same price - a
>> total bargain. You could always paint them yellow if it makes you feel
>> better (they really do go only as fast as you pull them along I'm
>> afraid). Pity about the exchange rate with the Pacific peso - why is
>> our dollar worth so little when everyone knows Orstylya's the best
>> country on earth?
>>
>> :-) Bruce from the sheepdip
>
>
>I agree with your thoughts re CD boats. First class and that is a
>fact.
>
>I would suggest that Filippe and Empacher are as good if not better.
>Check who wins all the racing silverware. Ask why these boats are used
>more and why do they win more. Must have something to do with design
>and quality. CD does not suggest they wear out.
>
>Perhaps we can have a debate as why these boat are so good
>
May I venture to gently suggest that, just maybe, "winning more" has
nothing to do with superior design or quality?
Who wins the silverware? Always the rowers & scullers.
Who buys the boats used at world level? Rarely the rowers & scullers.
Who intensively evaluates equipment? Hardly anyone.
Many competent manufacturers will have had World events won in their
shells. But only a very few are prepared or able to provide whole-team
fleets, or hire fleets for events.
It is fine that some manufacturers take the high-profile route. That
provides large hire fleets of uniform colour for World events (at a
price). It may also allow clubs & individual buyers to underwrite the
costs for the major competitors & teams. Not unlike the way that
individual buyers of Nike equipment, for example, fund the sponsorships
of professional athletes. It is a legitimate & rational commercial
arrangement for any large & ambitious manufacturer. But don't then be
surprised that most of the medals go to users of just a few makes.
Not every competitor, however, follows the crowd. Some make their own
deliberate choice of equipment & stick with it, because they find it
works best for them. In that way users of our shells have won World
golds, silvers & bronzes. Each paid full price for their equipment.
And in that equipment they beat the rest.
Of course, that is only one interpretation.
Cheers -
Nick Suess
"Tony Curran" <tony....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:aiIRa.5288$eP6.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> A simple test for small boats, 1x and 2x-, whilst upside down in the
> boathouse, grab hold of the bow ball and see how far it moves before the
> boat lifts off the supports.
>
> Ottawa RC
Well, Tony, luckily for us Aussies we are accustomed to being upside down in
our boathouses, which are also purpose built ready inverted, but I guess
it's more tricky for you Canucks!
Lenny Martin
tried this on 'my' (club) single and was most disturbed to see in excess of
an inch of flex before the boat left the rack. Obviously my 1980's
bergashell is now past its best, but since my student budget won't quite
stretch to a CD it will have to do, that is unless I use my new-found
captaincy to defraud my BC expenses to the tune of £4500.
Lenny Martin
Christ Church BC
Nick Suess <ni...@scull.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f1f5c09$0$23604$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Neil Wallace
"Ed " <oug...@rmc.ca> wrote in message news:3f1eca55...@news.rmc.ca...
> Kaschper is one that you have missed. His equipment is as good as the
> rest and will hold up better than most.
>
Just looked at them. Interesting.
I had seen that bio-rig, before, but had assumed it was angled the other
way, i.e. to make more use of the lift available at the catch.
Interesting though. And the cox suggestion is brilliant.
My daughter has just mastered the art of getting a playground swing to speed
up using her body weight/momentum etc.. at the change of directions.
Massive parallels for rowing stroke in general, but for that coxes seat
particularly.
Neil
Lenny Martin
Neil Wallace <rowing.golfer@*NOPSAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
news:KMXTa.638$XI2.4...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Ed " <oug...@rmc.ca> wrote in message
news:3f1eca55...@news.rmc.ca...
> > Kaschper is one that you have missed. His equipment is as good as the
> > rest and will hold up better than most.
> >
>
> Just looked at them. Interesting.
>
> www.kaschper.com
>
> I had seen that bio-rig, before, but had assumed it was angled the other
> way, i.e. to make more use of the lift available at the catch.
>
The do say that 'quad riggers available' for their 4-. Now stop me if I'm
wrong but I don't see how that would work.
Ewoud Dronkert
> The do say that 'quad riggers available' for their 4-. Now stop me if I'm
> wrong but I don't see how that would work.
4- turns into 4x-.
Adrian Turner
> Obviously my 1980's bergashell is now past its best, but since my student
budget won't quite stretch to a CD it will have to do <
One of the advantages of having gone to Worcester (besides bumping you in
Torpids, of course ;o)) is that we have a lovely CD custom. Surely the
nicest scull on the Isis? I had the pleasure of being able to make good use
of it this last year. A beautiful boat and certainly what I'd be buying if I
had the money.
BTW, Carl, don't suppose you know when we came to get this boat, or whom it
was bought by? After conversations with our current boatman, I suspect it
must have been an old college boatman of ours named Robin (?) Cousins as the
boat is named after his wife Pamela.
-Adrian
(ex) Worcester College BC
Neil Wallace
"Ewoud Dronkert" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pbo0iv8c17o988vjk...@news.cis.dfn.de...
I think you're missing the point Ewoud.
Lenny suggesting difficult to scull with the bio-rig angled slide.
Ewoud Dronkert
> I think you're missing the point Ewoud.
Ah yes sorry, wasn't reading too well.
Adrian Turner
>
> Lenny suggesting difficult to scull with the bio-rig angled slide.
Hard to tell from the pictures but looks like the whole system is
adjustable. If it weren't, bow rigging instead of stroke rigging would be
impossible and would surely be a major down-side of the boat? So perhaps one
is able to move the slide bed into a more symmetric arrangement in the case
of rigging up as a quad.
-Adrian
Mark Campbell
> deliberate choice of equipment & stick with it, because they find it
> works best for them. In that way users of our shells have won World
> golds, silvers & bronzes. Each paid full price for their equipment.
> And in that equipment they beat the rest.
>
> Of course, that is only one interpretation.
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
But a pretty fair interpretation, by my interpretation!
On a slightly serious note - my experience from coaching a reasonably
large number of rowers of all skill levels, is that seat and foot
comfort forms about 90% of their opinion of a boat's speed. Even with
most of the top-level people I've coached or rowed with. In other
words, as Carl points out, rational evaluation is very, very uncommon.
But maybe one way to start would be to have the same seat top and very
similar/ identical stretcher configuration in any two boats you wanted
to compare (besides the very obvious but often overlooked rigging).
Mark
Mark Campbell
> deliberate choice of equipment & stick with it, because they find it
> works best for them. In that way users of our shells have won World
> golds, silvers & bronzes. Each paid full price for their equipment.
> And in that equipment they beat the rest.
>
> Of course, that is only one interpretation.
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
Ed
traditionally (e.g., rails parellel to the shell) and it can be rigged
for starboard stroke and Italian style. It is really quite
impressive. I think that there is some information on the Kaschper
site about this.
Ed
Lenny Martin
> One of the advantages of having gone to Worcester (besides bumping you in
> Torpids, of course ;o))
I can only assume Summer Eights was not also one of these advantages ;-)
Adrian Turner
Well, despite our disappointing result, I think we actually all had a lot of
fun that term. And I don't think that result was indicative of our
potential. Bit of a shame really. I'd still say our technique was a lot
better than most of the crews that were around us - I guess we just didn't
have the horsepower (Erg times ranging from 6:40 to 7:16)
Anyhow, since I've left now, I guess I'll have to find myself a London club
to join. Does anyone have any idea what the standard of coxing is like at
the Putney clubs? How good are the coxes in the top boats at London and
Thames? What would be my chances of getting, say, a decent S2 or S1 crew?
Would I be better looking at some of the other clubs?
Cheers,
Adrian
bowsider
wrote in message
news:SCdVa.17260$T77.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Anyhow, since I've left now, I guess I'll have to find myself a London
club
> to join. Does anyone have any idea what the standard of coxing is like at
> the Putney clubs? How good are the coxes in the top boats at London
... pretty shocking if the final of the Thames Cup is anything to go by ...
> and Thames? What would be my chances of getting, say, a decent S2 or S1
> crew? Would I be better looking at some of the other clubs?
You might be better off looking at some of the smaller clubs - if you see
yourself as a relatively small fish, the pond will appear that much bigger.
For instance, Tradesmen seem to be very much on the up at the moment, and
usually put out a very handy Thames Cup eight - might be worth a try
--
bowsider
James Elder
> to join. Does anyone have any idea what the standard of coxing is like at
> the Putney clubs? How good are the coxes in the top boats at London and
> Thames? What would be my chances of getting, say, a decent S2 or S1 crew?
> Would I be better looking at some of the other clubs?
I'd better get a response in quick to pre-empt any acid comments from
Chris Harrison, who as a Vesta sculler probably has very definite
opinions of the quality of coxing at TRC and LRC!
Both clubs have a number of good coxes at present. But that's not a
reason to go elsewhere. Being insecure in your seat tends to
concentrate the mind.
I have coxed with the women's squad at TRC since 1999 (now moving into
coaching). I joined with three years of experience in Cambridge
College coxing and one year club coxing in the midlands. Since then I
have been (in chronological order) second, first, second, third,
second, first, second, first and second in the coxing pecking order.
This was obviously difficult at times but (I hope) my coxing has
improved immeasurably because of the competition.
I have also had some of the pleasures associated with being in a
fantastic squad: winning Henley Women's Club Eights, coxing Olympians
and World Champions, going off first in the Women's Eights Head etc
etc.
There is no guarantee what boat you would get but it has to be worth a
try. If you would like to know more about coxing at Thames contact me
offline (jamesdotelderatcantabdotnet).
James
chris harrison
wrote:
>> Anyhow, since I've left now, I guess I'll have to find myself a London
>> club
>> to join. Does anyone have any idea what the standard of coxing is like
>> at
>> the Putney clubs? How good are the coxes in the top boats at London and
>> Thames? What would be my chances of getting, say, a decent S2 or S1
>> crew?
>> Would I be better looking at some of the other clubs?
>
> I'd better get a response in quick to pre-empt any acid comments from
> Chris Harrison, who as a Vesta sculler probably has very definite
> opinions of the quality of coxing at TRC and LRC!
I'd be more scathing on the quality of launch driving :) (Quote at a VRC
committee meeting a few months ago when we were discussing our receipt of a
grant to allow some of our people to take launch driving courses, "wouldn't
we be better off giving this to Thames as they seem to need it more?" :-D )
Every club has its pros and cons, both in terms of rowing, coxing, sculling
and the off the water activities. There's no doubt that Thames and London
can offer top level opportunities, but there are other clubs which it might
be easier to stamp your own personality on.
I'd suggest that when you're next in London, take a wander down the hard
and introduce yourself to the various clubs and see which ones seem to do
it for you.
It's not as if it's a one-time decision. There's not that much movement
between clubs, but it's not that uncommon either!
Toby
performance of the cox of the Thames Cup crew is anything to go by,
then again maybe she thought she was going round a bend on the tideway
during the final.
I reckon the standard is probably much better at TRC. Tradesmen is a
good club to try they are on the up and the rowers there are really
friendly.
Tim Granger
> Well the standard of coxing at LRC cant be that good if the
> performance of the cox of the Thames Cup crew is anything to go by,
> then again maybe she thought she was going round a bend on the tideway
> during the final.
Seems people are too easy to jump on that mistake - maybe with another
cox that crew would never have made the final? Did each rower give
their personal best performance? Could anyone of them stand after the
race?
Tim
Adrian Turner
> and introduce yourself to the various clubs and see which ones seem to do
> it for you.
Thanks for all the replies - very much appreciated. I'm still unsure how
much time I want to commit to it, especially since I'd quite like to keep up
my sculling too, but I think wandering down the hard is probably a good
idea. I suppose it's hard to judge how good I am, since it's not very common
for us coxes to be given the opportunity to compare ourselves to our
counterparts. That said, my crews have generally been complimentary and I do
have about four year's experience, including the Henley boat races
(Oxford-Cambridge) a couple of years ago.
Just out of interest, does my wanting to scull affect where might be a good
choice? Also, do most of the Tideway crews train in fours or eights during
the winter season?
-Adrian
chris harrison
<adrian...@removethisspamblocktoemailme.worc.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Just out of interest, does my wanting to scull affect where might be a
> good
> choice? Also, do most of the Tideway crews train in fours or eights
> during
> the winter season?
I doubt whether you scull will affect your selection! Indeed, I think that
coxes who have never rowed/sculled at all are missing something in their
ability to coach their crews.
Although one consideration is that at Vesta our coxes pay an "honorary"
subs rate (£50) while if you sculled regularly you would be classed as an
active member and pay the normal rate (£315), I don't know how common this
is? What might drive your choice is whether you have your own boat -
racking space is not easy to come by and many clubs.
Which boat sizes depends a lot on many variables, I would expect that most
squads will send most of their members out in most boat sizes over the
course of the winter. I would suggest that those with the bigger squads
would generally send out larger boats, thus have more need for drivers, but
that's not going to be an absolute truth.
Adrian Turner
> coxes who have never rowed/sculled at all are missing something in their
> ability to coach their crews.
Sorry, just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting my sculling would in any way
improve my chances of a coxing seat, I was more interested in sculling
facilities and, for example, your point about membership costs! I don't have
my own boat and, being of coxing weight, would quite like to be able to
scull in a boat that's not designed for somebody twice my weight!
Cheers for the reply though. I hadn't even considered your point about subs.
-Adrian
Jon Anderson
> I suppose it's hard to judge how good I am, since it's not very common
> for us coxes to be given the opportunity to compare ourselves to our
> counterparts.
Best solution might well be to just go for the top and try to get into
the best crew at teh best club you can find. If you don't make it you
may still pick up a huge amount of experience and knowledge on the way.
Why settle for anything less? (Other than wanting to scull instead, of
course :-)
Jon
--
Durge: j...@durge.org http://users.durge.org/~jon/
OnStream: acco...@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/
[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]
Mike T
were going to try out a nearly-new scull, how do you test it?
Assuming that you're rowing it on someone else's bit of water, you've only
got a couple of hours when you should really be at work... what do you do?
My personal list for trying a boat this thursday are:
- check for obvious hull damage, anything loose, anything badly marked
- check height / span are similar to club boat I'm used to using
- go for a paddle for at least 45 minutes with similar blades to the ones
I'm used to, doing low rate & high rate pieces (trying really, really hard
not to crash into anything!!)
- try the new blades which he's selling too, for a shorter paddle.
is it fair to ask for it 'on approval' for a short time? (with a deposit and
insurance) The bloke is a dealer, so its not like a personal sale - I guess
only after a couple of weeks on home water will I really know if I want to
spend my hard-earned money on it..
any other advice?
"Mark Campbell" <in...@rowperfect.com.au> wrote in message
news:56543a0a.03072...@posting.google.com...
James Elder
> Well the standard of coxing at LRC cant be that good if the
> performance of the cox of the Thames Cup crew is anything to go by,
> then again maybe she thought she was going round a bend on the tideway
> during the final.
>
> I reckon the standard is probably much better at TRC.
As a Thames boy I’m very flattered that you think highly of us
– but surely that’s a big generalisation to make about
London from one piece of less than perfect steering (which no one
apart from Jasmine Kwan and her crew really know the details of)?
IMHO, with Jasmine, Charlie Ware, Phelan Hill, Becca Ambler and
others, LRC are lucky to have a strong group of coxes.
James Elder
> choice? Also, do most of the Tideway crews train in fours or eights during
> the winter season?
I would agree with Chris that knowledge of sculling is likely to
increase your coxing nouse; assuming you can find the time to fit in
both.
The subs story at Thames is similar to what Chris relates for Vesta.
Coxes pay House Sub - £50 (or £70 if you pay it in quarterly
installments).
Full rowing membership costs £400 (£450 if paid quarterly). This
would entitle you to use of the few club singles that we own (one or
two of which are on the lighter side).
Aside: Before this thread goes in a completely different direction:
yes £400 is a lot, but bear in mind that since 2000 TRC has taken
delivery of the following new boats: 1 women's eight, 2 women's coxed
fours, 2 women's coxless fours/quads, 3 women's pairs/doubles, 2
women's singles, 1 men's eight, 2 men's coxed fours, 2 men's coxless
fours/quads, 3 men's pairs/doubles.
As for winter training, both men's and women's squads go out in a
mixture of boats, but we would normally have at least 2 men's and 2
women's senior eights out, and probably a coxed four or two as well.
James
TRC
bowsider
news:oprs2dgq...@news.gradwell.net...
> I'd be more scathing on the quality of launch driving :) (Quote at a VRC
> committee meeting a few months ago when we were discussing our receipt of
a
> grant to allow some of our people to take launch driving courses,
"wouldn't
> we be better off giving this to Thames as they seem to need it more?"
:-D )
They're not bad at launch driving per se, IMO - I think the problem stems
with their apparent "consensus" model of coaching. Each TRC crew needs at
least 2 or 3 different opinions, and therefore at least 2 or 3 people in the
launch. Good old physics takes care of the rest.
--
bowsider
ITguy_uk
> Adrian Turner wrote:
> > I suppose it's hard to judge how good I am, since it's not very common
> > for us coxes to be given the opportunity to compare ourselves to our
> > counterparts.
>
> Best solution might well be to just go for the top and try to get into
> the best crew at teh best club you can find. If you don't make it you
> may still pick up a huge amount of experience and knowledge on the way.
> Why settle for anything less? (Other than wanting to scull instead, of
> course :-)
>
> Jon
Bren,
One club that you might be interested in checking out that seems to
have been missed off previous posts is Curlew Rowing Club which is
based in Greenwich, but rows out of the London Regatta Centre (Royal
Albert Dock & DLR). I recently moved back to East London from Reading
and found the club by a posting here similar to yours.
Their website is:
Contact details are on the web site.
Luke Howells
If you're not absolutely determined to be in Putney, then there are
several other options in West London - AK at Hammersmith is always
putting out lots of boats, Tradesmen have already been mentioned,
currently their women's squad is non-existent, but the men are doing
quite well at the S1/S2 level, and further upriver by Chiswick Bridge
is Mortlake, which has been putting out some quick men's & women's
boats this year at all levels up to S1.
Luke
chris harrison
> They're not bad at launch driving per se, IMO - I think the problem stems
> with their apparent "consensus" model of coaching. Each TRC crew needs
> at
> least 2 or 3 different opinions, and therefore at least 2 or 3 people in
> the
> launch. Good old physics takes care of the rest.
Or each of the 2 or 3 in their own launch following the same boat :)
Tony Ward
London club
to join. Does anyone have any idea what the standard of coxing is like
at
the Putney clubs? How good are the coxes in the top boats at London
and
Thames? What would be my chances of getting, say, a decent S2 or S1
crew?
Would I be better looking at some of the other clubs?"
Cheers,
Adrian
I've rowed a few of the London clubs. Unfortunately, none of them
made me better looking.
TonyW
jamese...@excite.co.uk (James Elder) wrote in message news:<bd245229.03072...@posting.google.com>...
Nat
happy anniversary...
bird.