2k times - C2 erg vs water - Masters

[R...@purwell.net]

Out of interest and with next year's training in mind, I am trying to get feel for how C2 erg scores relate to times on the water, for a 78kg Vet C sculler, over 2000m.

The C2 database shows that for a 49 year old, the fastest 2k erg score is 6.32, the 90th percentile score is 6.56 and the 50th percentile score is 7.36

I can find the world record 2k time for a male heavyweight sculler (Mahe Drysdale), but haven't so far been able to find top times (or any data about average times) for Vet / Masters C scullers.

Any ideas gratefully received.

Rob

[Carl]

Rob - there's but a fuzzy relationship between erg performance &
performance on water, not a direct correlation. Particularly for a 1x.

Technique is so important. An intelligent athlete can work out the best
way to score high on the erg. But erg technique does not translate well
into 1x technique, & effective boat technique is several layers more
complex than effective erg technique.

A number of great scullers have scored relatively low on ergs (Thomas
Lange would be one example) because they could not (or preferred not to)
bridge the technique gap between erg & boat.

At races we see so many rowers treating boats as if they were still on
ergs. They may well be super-fit & strong, but moving boats fast needs
much more than muscle.

Cheers -
Carl

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[R...@purwell.net]

Thanks, Carl
I agree with all of that. That's why I don't want to set an erg 'benchmark' without getting some idea of benchmark times for an on water 2k in my age bracket. I accept that benchmark figures are to some extent meaningless in a 1x - conditions and scullers vary so much. But interesting nevertheless?
R

[Anthony]

I think you're likely to have trouble finding 2k times for masters simply because most masters racing, apart from head racing, is over 1k. And in my experience timing is frequently unreliable to boot!

[James HS]

there are some beasts out there and they can post some powerful erg scores - look at Rocket Roy!

However, if you have your own erg score an want to know what your potential is over 2K OTW then it is worth looking in at 'the rowing company' where is was discussed recently and generally felt that there could be 15 to 20 seconds difference over 2K.

For some good 1K ideas have a look at British Rowing Nottingham Masters - the times there were well measured, but it is over 1K

This is not scientific, but my aim over 1K is anywhere between 80-90% of my erg score (I use a dynamic erg). I have never achieved over 90% - but therein lies a life's work :)

I am Vet D

James

[thomas....@googlemail.com]

Biorow has the following table which gives suggested "best" times on the water depending on your 2k erg score

http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2007_files/App2007RowBiomNews08.pdf

[John Greenly]

On Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:56:51 PM UTC-5, thomas....@googlemail.com wrote:
> Biorow has the following table which gives suggested "best" times on the water depending on your 2k erg score
>
>
>
> http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2007_files/App2007RowBiomNews08.pdf

Yes, this is good. I believe that the fundamental quantity that the erg's monitor computes from the sensors is power (watts). Speed (and time for distance) are then derived using a simple formula (given on C2's website): speed equals the cube root of power multiplied by a constant. This is an idealization of how a boat goes, and the constant is essentially arbitrary, though it has been chosen to be in the ballpark of real boat speeds.

[Brian Chapman]

You have definitely picked the hard distance for Masters, there is a wealth of data for 1000m from the World masters, and this year it was rowed over pretty neutral conditions but there is little serious competition over 2000m.

From my ergo scores over 1000m there is a big difference to the on water score but I know that I have a lot to find in the first 200. If the difference should be 15 - 20 seconds over 2k (See James HS) I should be in the medals when I get my technique sorted out!

[magnus....@gmail.com]

I did a little study of rowing speed vs erg score from some GB trials a while ago, and although not Masters' data, it does show that erg score is not very useful for predicting water speed even at the top of the GB club scene:

http://www.slidingseat.net/studies/studies.html#ergboat

Cheers, Magnus

[sully]

On Monday, November 25, 2013 1:53:58 PM UTC-8, magnus....@gmail.com wrote:
> I did a little study of rowing speed vs erg score from some GB trials a while ago, and although not Masters' data, it does show that erg score is not very useful for predicting water speed even at the top of the GB club scene:
>
>
>
> http://www.slidingseat.net/studies/studies.html#ergboat

I agree, but I think erg scores are a good predictor of the
potential of a sculler. They just need to learn to scull, Carl
said this earlier.

Had a group of scullers out a few years ago, nat'l team
candidates for heavy US and one lightweight Euro who medaled
in the single (silver).

The US men were universally 10-15 secs faster over 2k in
an erg than the sculler, in the aerobic training sessions
they competed really hard and took turns finishing ahead
of him (against my suggestions, btw). However, the best any of
these guys would do in a flat water 2k in a single would
be 7:10, where the ltwt had a solid sub-7:00.

the ltwt kept finishes deep, catches were consistent,
power application was relaxed and consistent. The US
men had good power application, but were inconsistent and
average to poor at either end of the stroke.

Power output is power output, period. But what moves the
boat (relatively) is what the blade does in the water with that power,
and what the body doesn't do to stop it.

I have two vids. One of a world champion sculler, one of a
US nat'l team sculler, both with the same exact body types
and erg scores within two seconds of each other. One vid
was sent to me (thanks), the other I took, both during
aerobic training sessions @24 -26 spm (thank you as well).

I can count good catches, good finishes, over 40-50 strokes
at a time. The US sculler rows better than most US
scullers I've seen, his best strokes are as good as
the world champion. But his worst strokes are worse
than the world champion's, and there are more of them
by 1-2 per 10 strokes I count.