adjusting lateral pitch
jsco...@ssisp.com
adjusting lateral pitch.
as a casual observer, the cromagnon methods of adjusting riggers is too easy.
obviously the manufacturers are missing a new product.
instead of bending the pin. why not redesign the oarlock to have a spherical
bushing in the bottom and have the upper bushing on a plate. slot the attach
holes in the plate. voila, problem solved. makes the machinists in the worlg
look good.....sorri it lacks the crowbar mistique, but you can' have it all....
have a nice day everyone.............scott correa, mount vernon wa. usa.
edgar cove
In article <69bt06$hm1$2...@gte2.gte.net>, jsco...@ssisp.com writes
--
edgar
Carl Douglas
>
This is an important and less-than perfectly understood subject. It
merits a bit of space, so I'll try to do it justice here:-
What you propose - an adaptation of the oarlock - will swing the oarlock
sideways on the pin but has not the slightest effect on "lateral pitch".
Nor will tilting the oarlock like this in any way affect the oar pitch -
at any part of the stroke. That's not what lateral pitch is - although
there's long been a popular misconception that certain oarlocks allow
adjustment of lateral.
For lateral pitch the pin, not the oarlock, is tilted laterally (i.e.
outwards from the boat). This increases blade pitch at the catch &
reduces it at the finish, each by around 2/3 of the amount of added
lateral pitch. At mid-stroke the effect is zero. Lateral pitch
requires catches to be held in, & helps to hold finishes in, supposedly
reducing "digging" and "washing-out". Some like one degree of outward
lateral pitch; some say none. For good balance have equal lateral on
both sides of the boat (1/2 degree can matter). The oft-alleged
efficiency loss from lateral pitch is, however, insignificant.
There are a number of ways to get lateral:
Use the cro-magnon/flintstone wrecking bar methods, which even their
advocates admit will every time weaken the riggers;
Inadvertently acquire lateral, by using wedges to alter rigger height
without then correcting the pins;
Or use a system which allows straightforward, non-abusive adjustment of
lateral and stern pitch.
All but one of the available non-abusive pitching systems requires the
pin to be physically restrained from slipping out of adjustment by a
locking bolt - which must resist the entire force & turning moment
applied to the pin by the oar and by the various mild accidental impacts
which occur at other times. All such systems are prone to slip out of
adjustment, often during use. Hence all the neurotic pitching & re-
pitching in which one sees some coaches, sculler & crews passing their
leisure time!
Will you all out there forgive me if, just in passing of course, I
briefly mention the one proprietary system that does give calibrated,
rapid, accurate, & totally secure adjustment of lateral _&_ stern
pitches? It's called AxioR. And it just happens that we make it (&
some very effective riggers to go with it, too). I'll simply say that
one of the secrets of AxioR is this - the more you load it the less
possible it is for it to slip. Yet you can repitch in a couple of
minutes. Our one problem is that after, say, 10 years of never having
to re-pitch, when they want to try a new pitch setting AxioR owners
sometimes forget how it's done & have to phone us for a fresh set of
pitching instructions (always free). Life's tough!
Carl
Carl Douglas
Carl Douglas Racing Shells
The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, Great Britain
URL http://www.rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk TEL +44 (0) 1784-456344
E-mail carld...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk FAX +44 (0) 1784-466550
Neil Selby
When measuring lateral pitch, there needs to be a reference horizontal level.
Where is the best place on the boat to set this level? (e.g. across the
slides or across the saxboards).
Neil
Douglas MacFarlane
In article <QZT9RBADYpu0EwL$@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk>, Carl Douglas
<row...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <69bt06$hm1$2...@gte2.gte.net>, jsco...@ssisp.com writes
> >adjusting lateral pitch.
> >as a casual observer, the cromagnon methods of adjusting riggers is too easy.
> >obviously the manufacturers are missing a new product.
> >instead of bending the pin. why not redesign the oarlock to have a spherical
> >bushing in the bottom and have the upper bushing on a plate. slot the
attach
> >holes in the plate. voila, problem solved. makes the machinists in
the worlg
> >look good.....sorri it lacks the crowbar mistique, but you can' have it
all....
> This is an important and less-than perfectly understood subject. It
> merits a bit of space, so I'll try to do it justice here:-
>
...
Description of pitching removed here to allow followup posting....
...
> Will you all out there forgive me if, just in passing of course, I
> briefly mention the one proprietary system that does give calibrated,
> rapid, accurate, & totally secure adjustment of lateral _&_ stern
> pitches? It's called AxioR. And it just happens that we make it (&
> some very effective riggers to go with it, too).
...
...
> Carl Douglas
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells
All these system which allow you to set the pitch by moving the pin are
just fixing the axis which the oarlock rotates around. The oarlock and
the oar between them then define the angle of the blade in relation to
this axis. Would the ideal not be a combination of the AxioR or similar
which allows independant setting of lateral and stern pitch of the pin,
with an oarlock using the back face inserts (used on stamphli gates from
memory) or else the inserts on the concept II style oarlocks. This should
allow for a flexible system of pitching. You can set the axis you
want and then use the oarlock to set the angle of the blade to this axis.
(This would also allow you to adjust for blades where the pitch of the
blade is not correctly set) It might make pitching more complicated
with more than one way of changing things but I think it might offer
solutions to some pitching problems.
Douglas MacFarlane
Clydesdale ARC.
Carl Douglas
In article <69edj1$6rj$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Neil Selby
<ne...@earth.ox.ac.uk> writes
A "horizontal" across saxboards should parallel a "horizontal" across
the slides, & both should be exactly perpendicular to (what we hope is)
the boat's vertical axis of symmetry. If so, either sax or rails will
do for reference. That's the ideal, but boats are built by humans.
Some saxes do wander up & down a bit. Grit or a blob of paint could
raise one slide by a millimetre over t'other - 1/3 degree on 165mm track
width. A visual check works in both cases. You can also check the
parallel between saxes & slides by accurately measuring down from a
straight bar or board across the saxes (& sometimes sax heights are
markedly different!). If they are parallel, then most probably both are
accurate horizontals. If not, then best to work from the rails, but be
sure they are properly bedded down & not springing.
With crew boats beware: I've seen one most-reputable VIII on which one
sax sagged 1cm amidships while the other ran straight. Therefore,
having chosen a transverse horizontal reference point in the boat you
must use that same reference for all pitch measurements. And use that
same reference for measuring & setting all rigger heights.
A passing word: The seat should be level across the boat - but _only_
if your pelvis is entirely symmetrical. Is your pelvis symmetrical? If
not (& many aren't) you may be uncomfortable rowing a properly measured
& rigged boat & may well need to have your seat tilted sideways to
compensate. Such natural skeletal variability may underly a fair few
balance problems.
Again: If at the catch you have one rigger lower by 15mm as a result of
heeling the boat (& the other higher similarly), you will thus have
given the higher rigger 1.5 degrees less, and the lower one 1.5 degrees
more, lateral pitch than you'd intended. Hand height errors at the
finish have the same effect. But while the tilt at the catch is
compensated by the extra uplift on the lower rigger, the tilt at the
finish has the opposite effect and holds in the blade held by the lower
hand - the only cure being (counter-intuitively) to raise that lower
hand.
The centipede had no trouble walking until he stopped to consider which
foot to use after which. Then he fell over. So take care.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas
Carl Douglas Racing Shells
Carl Douglas
In article <dkm-130198...@eigg.dcs.gla.ac.uk>, Douglas MacFarlane
<d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk> writes
>In article <QZT9RBADYpu0EwL$@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk>, Carl Douglas
><row...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <69bt06$hm1$2...@gte2.gte.net>, jsco...@ssisp.com writes
>> >adjusting lateral pitch.
>> >as a casual observer, the cromagnon methods of adjusting riggers is too easy.
>> >obviously the manufacturers are missing a new product.
>> >instead of bending the pin. why not redesign the oarlock to have a spherical
>> >bushing in the bottom and have the upper bushing on a plate. slot the
>attach
>> >holes in the plate. voila, problem solved. makes the machinists in
>the worlg
>> >look good.....sorri it lacks the crowbar mistique, but you can' have it
>all....
>
>> This is an important and less-than perfectly understood subject. It
>> merits a bit of space, so I'll try to do it justice here:-
>>
>
>...
>Description of pitching removed here to allow followup posting....
>...
>
>> Will you all out there forgive me if, just in passing of course, I
>> briefly mention the one proprietary system that does give calibrated,
>> rapid, accurate, & totally secure adjustment of lateral _&_ stern
>> pitches? It's called AxioR. And it just happens that we make it (&
>> some very effective riggers to go with it, too).
>
>
>All these system which allow you to set the pitch by moving the pin are
>just fixing the axis which the oarlock rotates around. The oarlock and
>the oar between them then define the angle of the blade in relation to
>this axis. Would the ideal not be a combination of the AxioR or similar
>which allows independant setting of lateral and stern pitch of the pin,
>with an oarlock using the back face inserts (used on stamphli gates from
>memory) or else the inserts on the concept II style oarlocks. This should
>allow for a flexible system of pitching. You can set the axis you
>want and then use the oarlock to set the angle of the blade to this axis.
>(This would also allow you to adjust for blades where the pitch of the
>blade is not correctly set) It might make pitching more complicated
>with more than one way of changing things but I think it might offer
>solutions to some pitching problems.
>
>Douglas MacFarlane
>Clydesdale ARC.
Absolutely right! We always fit AxioR pins _plus_ C-II (or other)
pitch-adjustable oarlocks. The pitchable pin and pitchable gate perform
different but essential functions. They are complementary, not
interchangeable, and you need both. You can't correct pin pitch errors
on the gate, nor vice-versa.
With the physical effort that we all put into rowing, it's right to put
effort into explaining the simple science behind pin pitch, oarlock
pitch & blade pitch. That importance was well appreciated 100 years ago
by MF Davis, the noted rowing innovator, viz. his US Patent of 4 June
1895.
Mark Ruscoe
Douglas MacFarlane (d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk) wrote:
: All these system which allow you to set the pitch by moving the pin are
: just fixing the axis which the oarlock rotates around. The oarlock and
: the oar between them then define the angle of the blade in relation to
: this axis. Would the ideal not be a combination of the AxioR or similar
: which allows independant setting of lateral and stern pitch of the pin,
: with an oarlock using the back face inserts (used on stamphli gates from
: memory) or else the inserts on the concept II style oarlocks. This should
: allow for a flexible system of pitching. You can set the axis you
: want and then use the oarlock to set the angle of the blade to this axis.
: (This would also allow you to adjust for blades where the pitch of the
: blade is not correctly set) It might make pitching more complicated
: with more than one way of changing things but I think it might offer
: solutions to some pitching problems.
: Douglas MacFarlane
: Clydesdale ARC.
That's right, and it is the conventional way of setting the pitch.
Use the adjustable pin (or bending the rigger) to set the pin to
zero degrees stern pitch plus the required lateral pitch. Then use
whatever combination of wedges, inserts, tape, etc on the oarlock
gives the desired stern pitch when combined with the pitch built
into the oar.
Mark.
Ken Cooperstein
IMHO, if the builder set up the pin with 1.5 degrees of lateral pitch,
this would satisfy the needs of 99% of rowers and avoid the expense
and complexity of an adjustable arrangement, which most people don't
have a prayer of setting accurately. I have been astonished at how
far off the pins are on club boats, even those set by the club's
rigging expert.
Ken
Neil Selby
Ken Cooperstein (cprs...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: IMHO, if the builder set up the pin with 1.5 degrees of lateral pitch,
: Ken
Hmmm.. I understand that having a small amount of outward lateral pitch
makes it
harder to go in deep at the catch and easier to stay in at the finish, but
I've always been told it's "better" to have zero lateral and adjust technique
accordingly. I assume this must be because introducing lateral leads to a
loss of performance in some way...?
Neil
Ken Cooperstein
Two additional thoughts that have occurred to me over time concerning
lateral pitch:
(1) Almost every Alden Ocean Shell with the Oarmaster I is rowed with
*negative* lateral pitch (i.e. pin tilts in), as a result of setting
the arms to the proper height. When I asked Alden about this, they
reacted as if I had two heads.
(2) The niftiest solution to the lateral pitch setting I have not yet
seen on the market. With CII a de facto standard, we now set fore-aft
pitch with bushings and oarlock height with washers. If CII (or
others) offered pins with built-in lateral pitch, the last adjustment
problem would be solved
Ken
.
Tony Curran
I attempted to put Carl Douglas Axior pins on my Vespoli in order to
apply lateral pitch to my pins. Unfortunately, the surface area required
by the Axior pin to be mounted is not available on the Vespoli fixed
block rigger, which is similar to the Empacher (and maybe Filippi too).
So, no matter what Carl says, unless he changes design of Axior pin you
physically cannot mount it on anything other than a CD rigger - or maybe
a Hudson.
The block thickness cannot be more than 4.5mm deep and 35mm wide to
support the upper washer. There are not that many riggers out there that
can support this. So maybe you this is a new task for CDRS.
I ended up using CDRS wedges and raised the gates to compensate for
the tilting of the rigger.
Tony Curran
Ottawa RC
Tony Curran
I forgot to add that after a collision in my Vespoli, I replaced my
riggers with CDRS ones, with AxioR pins, and they are second to non.
My advice to anybody who buys a conventional rigged boat is - buy boat
from which vendor you like - but have it delivered with Aerowing
riggers. (Just thought I'd give CDRS a plug).
Tony Curran
Ottawa RC
Tony Curran
Actually, I have an unconfirmed report that CII apply lateral pitch to
the button of the ultralight hatchets only. Anybody else heard this?
Tony Curran
Ottawa RC
GSpiess
There are a few boats/riggers that I know of that allow for lateral pitch
adjustment: New Stampflis are provided with wedge blocks that sit on top of
the wing, and one inserts the pin assemblies down through the block. The blue
blocks allow for 1 degree, the red = 2 degrees. Its a very simple system that
won't go out of adjustment, but you have to buy the Stampfli to get it.
Len Neville rigging produces a model where the pin mounts through a slot on a
hinged plate. You adjust the lateral pitch by loosening two bolts, raising the
plate to the desired angle, then re-tightening. I've seen Neville rigging on
Janouseks and our club has five Burgashells, all with these on them..
The Douglas riggers with the Axiors are sexy, and a good value. Our club
rebuilt a '70's Schoenbrod quad, and replaced the riggers with CD's. The boat
is incredibly light, the rigging is as stiff as stiff gets, and it is much
easier to rig and de-rig now, as well as make any adjustments.
I never realized until this thread that so many "elite level" boats don't allow
for this adjustment - its really incredible.
George
Carl Douglas
In article <34BB9A...@nortel.ca>, Tony Curran <acu...@nortel.ca>
writes
Sorry Tony - I couldn't design one self-pitching pin to fit every make
of rigger.
AxioR was designed specifically as part of our AeRoWing rigger system,
but has been successfully retrofitted onto a number of other makers'
unpitchable riggers. Always ask - and we'll do our best to find how to
make AxioR work on your particular rigger.
You're being a little hard on AxioR's dimensional requirements for
fitting to other rigging. Actually it fits in any rigger-end up to 14mm
thick (maybe 15mm - say 5/8") with a slot or hole 9.6 to 10 mm wide (say
a loose 3/8" - but wider can be tolerated). While it's nice to have a
full 35mm width of outboard platform, again that's not essential. But
if you do have a rigger-end built that way it'll certainly be stiff &
solid.
Isn't stiff, but fully-adjustable, rigging what we all want?
Carl
Fennelly
Hasn't anybody noticed the simple, clever lateral pitch adjustment of the Pocock
rigger? They're worth checking out, as are the boats. They've come a long way from
the crap made in the mid 80's.
edgar cove
In article <f2lO6AAY...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk>, Carl Douglas
<row...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk> writes
<big snip>
>
>A passing word: The seat should be level across the boat - but _only_
>if your pelvis is entirely symmetrical. Is your pelvis symmetrical?
If
>not (& many aren't) you may be uncomfortable rowing a properly measured
>& rigged boat & may well need to have your seat tilted sideways to
>compensate. Such natural skeletal variability may underly a fair few
>balance problems.<
>
This has me worried-how do I know? I'm reluctant to ask my friends.
How can I check this in the privacy of my own home?
>
--
edgar
Rowtravel
>(2) The niftiest solution to the lateral pitch setting I have not yet
>seen on the market. With CII a de facto standard, we now set fore-aft
>pitch with bushings and oarlock height with washers. If CII (or
>others) offered pins with built-in lateral pitch, the last adjustment
>problem would be solved
>
>
Then you get to assume that the sill on each rigger is in the proper plane.
Measure them sometime---Good Luck .
Carl Douglas
In article <BDmLYCAp...@coves.demon.co.uk>, edgar cove
<ed...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
But seriously (if that slant's allowed) this might show:
Sit on the floor, legs ahead & flexed, & see (by mirrors or with a
little help from friends) whether your spine is straight & vertical from
the pelvis. If not, pack sheets of paper under the lower cheek until
you feel more level, or the back's more comfortable, or you look as if
you're sitting more squarely. The amount of packing might indicate the
extent of the problem. Or not.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas
Robert Plater
jsco...@ssisp.com wrote:
> adjusting lateral pitch.
> as a casual observer, the cromagnon methods of adjusting riggers is
> too easy.
> obviously the manufacturers are missing a new product.
> instead of bending the pin. why not redesign the oarlock to have a
> spherical
> bushing in the bottom and have the upper bushing on a plate. slot
> the attach
> holes in the plate. voila, problem solved. makes the machinists in
> the worlg
> look good.....sorri it lacks the crowbar mistique, but you can' have
> it all....
> have a nice day everyone.............scott correa, mount vernon wa.
> usa.
When I rowed at school the riggers we had on the 1st VIII adjusted in
both directions (lateral and actual[?]).
The problem was that this created an extra week point. My pin keep
leaning out, maybe I just put too much weight against the pin, but the
fact stayes the same: the pin moved. At least once a fortnight my pin
had to be adjusted laterally.
However, no-one else had this problem and the pins were not being
bent.
For the record the boat was a carbon composite from Sykes Racing in
Australia with aluminium riggers.
Rob.
Oskar Loewe
Neil Selby schrieb:
> When measuring lateral pitch, there needs to be a reference horizontal
> level.
> Where is the best place on the boat to set this level? (e.g. across
> the
> slides or across the saxboards).
>
> Neil
across the slides, because the saxboards could be uncorrect
cutted and some "mm" different in hight.
Oskar Loewe.Rudersport.Germany