Matthias Siejkowski, Rob Waddell
Geoffrey S Knauth
I find it incredible that certain virtual rowers on the Internet so
quickly take apart Matthias' achievement, namely, his 5:39.7 ergo
world record on Sunday, attributing it merely to his weight, mocking
his lack of comparable success on the water, and using equations and
calculations to reduce a considerable human achievement. It is
completely disrespectful of the athlete. Is cyberspace merely a
refuge from the courtesy and courage required in real life?
I've seen Mattias race many times at CRASH-B. At first, he would win
easily, rowing strong at a low cadence, unchallenged. Later, he would
win frantically, with strokes at half slide and a rating much too
high. Or he would arrive sick and not make the final. Or he would
win in the old way, but seem bored with all this erging, and miss the
new world record all the Romans in the Colliseum were expecting of
him.
This year was entirely different. Rob Waddell had a 5:42 world record
coming into the regatta that stood defiantly before all the elite
internationals, including Matthias. 5:42 was so low it could hardly
be believed. When the race itself started, Waddell moved steadily
into the lead. He was so focused and smooth in his rowing that it
produced a very hushed silence in the crowd. That level of skill,
strength and poise should do very well on the water. Meanwhile, a
formidable Olympic gold medalist trailed, and Matthias was in 4th
place, far enough back that I thought Matthias had seen better days.
It looked very much as though Waddell would cruise smoothly to victory
by a significant margin and that we'd be talking of him as a new
phenomenon for years. Even when Matthias moved into second place, he
was far enough back I didn't think he'd ever catch Waddell.
But Matthias wanted this race very, very badly. Little bit by little
bit, he got closer to Waddell. I still didn't think he'd make it.
Only in the last 50m did I see that Matthias was really going to do
it. And meanwhile, Rob Waddell was going as strong as ever, never
flagging. It was a race between champions if ever there was one.
When the race was over, Matthias collapsed. When he recovered, the
top athletes got together and rowed on warm-down ergs for a long time,
chatting amiably, Matthias talking to Klaus Geiger in German and to
Waddell in English. They obviously respected each other in a real way
that is much more appreciable than vain Usenet drivel.
Do I care that Matthias had bent arms while he rowed, or that his erg
flexed and sometimes jumped in response to his effort? I did when it
was first pointed out to me in the first 1000m, but not any more. He
gave his all in that race, and Waddell was the worthiest opponent I've
seen Siejkowski face. Do I feel sad that Siejkowski has tried many
times and not yet made the top ranks on the water? I do.
That Waddell came all the way from New Zealand only three days before,
and managed to break his own world record by two seconds, is another
magnificent performance.
Geoffrey
--
Geoffrey S. Knauth <gkn...@bbn.com> <http://world.std.com/~gsk/>
Sullys Maze
In article <yju20ac...@world.std.com>,
g...@world.std.com (Geoffrey S Knauth) writes:
>I find it incredible that certain virtual rowers on the Internet so
>quickly take apart Matthias' achievement, namely, his 5:39.7 ergo
>world record on Sunday, attributing it merely to his weight, mocking
>his lack of comparable success on the water, and using equations and
>calculations to reduce a considerable human achievement. It is
>completely disrespectful of the athlete. Is cyberspace merely a
>refuge from the courtesy and courage required in real life?
Why should the results of the Crash-B sprints be treated any differently
in 'cyberspace' as the Oly results? Olympians and coaches with quite
impressive race records and honorable results were shredded mercilessly
or at least 'questioned' on the net. What the hell else is the net for?
>
>I've seen Mattias race many times at CRASH-B. At first, he would win
>easily, rowing strong at a low cadence, unchallenged. Later, he would
>win frantically, with strokes at half slide and a rating much too
>high. Or he would arrive sick and not make the final. Or he would
>win in the old way, but seem bored with all this erging, and miss the
>new world record all the Romans in the Colliseum were expecting of
>him.
nice analogy.
I know of a few ex-rowers who felt that they were 'christians' being fed to
the lions on erg-test day.
(nice race description deleted - Grantland Rice reborn! I nominate it for
top February RSR post)
>top athletes got together and rowed on warm-down ergs for a long time,
>chatting amiably, Matthias talking to Klaus Geiger in German and to
>Waddell in English. They obviously respected each other in a real way
>that is much more appreciable than vain Usenet drivel.
Now Geoffery, how is a well written cheerleading description of a 2000
meter erg pull any less drivel than a well written bitchy jealous critical
one? And yes, I've heard similar stuff said for years about ergo gods who
couldn't make a boat move LONG before there was USENET.
>
>Do I care that Matthias had bent arms while he rowed, or that his erg
>flexed and sometimes jumped in response to his effort? I did when it
>was first pointed out to me in the first 1000m, but not any more. He
>gave his all in that race, and Waddell was the worthiest opponent I've
>seen Siejkowski face. Do I feel sad that Siejkowski has tried many
>times and not yet made the top ranks on the water? I do.
>
>That Waddell came all the way from New Zealand only three days before,
>and managed to break his own world record by two seconds, is another
>magnificent performance.
This is sort of a response to the other post also titled Re: CRaSH-B who
wondered why rowers have a disdain for non-rowers who do the erg thing.
Why do rowers have a disdain for crews who row like shit? Why do rowers
have a disdain for a crew that paddles very prettily but is butt-slow?
'they looked good but they lost' is no compliment. It's a competitive sport
with little notoriety and respect to go around even to the top rowers.
To rowers, the erg is a tool, a means to an end - that end being making boats
go fast. It's frustrating for rowers who work very hard but can't spin the
wheel, to see a talent sit down and peg the machine. And a LOT of it comes
down to talent. I remember the first time Greg Springer sat down on a gamut
in the fall of his Frosh year and simply PEG the needle in a 3 minute piece.
There were elites with international experience that just wanted to cry. He'd
had absolutely no training, and just a few weeks of rudimentary rowing
experience. I knew guys then with world medals who couldn't do that. Greg
was pulling somewhere around 4000 for 6 mins (damn good score) around by his
sophomore year. There were 7 and 8 year elites in US national boats who had
gone from 2900 their sophomore year in college to mid 3500's at a few years out
of college at best but were very VERY much faster in boats.
I do think the correct measure of respect in rowing is earned by how fast you
make a boat go. I can name a couple heavyweight world medalists with abysmal
erg scores. In no way does that tarnish their achievement. There is a huge
emphasis in the US in various programs in spinning the wheel which pays dividends,
but I can't believe there isn't a price being paid for it. The top eight erg
scores are simply NOT the fastest eight on the water.
One of the advantages of the old Aussie machines and the Gamuts was that there
was huge doubts about the measureablility of absolute scores, they were expensive
and few. Relatively higher or lower scores could be rationalized away easily,
and not interfere too much with the confidence of the athlete or the selection
by the coach.
In my rowing experience, I've met people with very very different pain thresholds.
A friend of mine has never taken novocaine for tooth filling, he's never found
it necessary - the drilling pain is a nuisance. I'm certain there were people
in the Crash-Bs with incredibly heroic performances with very low pain tolerances
and not much talent who probably deserve some net-praise if we can find them in
some of the mediocre scores.
The erg can be a hugely positive tool in the sport, but it is still a matter of
applying pressure effectively in the water, and not slowing the boat when you're
not pulling that takes the miles and years and concentration and earns the respect
in the rowing community be it on the race course, or in amongst our net drivel.
Indoor Rowing is a wonderful activity, more power to y'all. I reserve the same
respect for the stairmasters, and bike ergs, and treadmills - it's all great
stuff.
What makes the sport of rowing so great is precisely BECAUSE it's not just a
sport of talent. There are so many ways of being a champion without being an
erg god, or extremely competitive, or high pain-tolerance, or highly athletic
and co-ordinated. Erging is an important part of rowing, but it is simply a
part of it, not an end.
Mike
Geoffrey S Knauth
Su...@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze) writes:
> how is a well written cheerleading description of a 2000 meter erg pull
> any less drivel than a well written bitchy jealous critical one?
You're right: drivel is in the eye of the beholder.
> 'they looked good but they lost' is no compliment.
I meant to hold up Waddell's smoothness combined with his strength as
an example of his potential on the water. I remember reading in a
Soviet Rowing Annual in the early 1980s how much admiration they had
for John Biglow's even splits, which was important to them because
their own crews were all over the place in their split times.
> It's frustrating for rowers who work very hard but can't spin the
> wheel, to see a talent sit down and peg the machine.
True, until the river thaws.
> Greg was pulling somewhere around 4000 for 6 mins (damn good score)
> around by his sophomore year. There were 7 and 8 year elites in US
> national boats who had gone from 2900 their sophomore year in
> college to mid 3500's at a few years out of college at best but were
> very VERY much faster in boats.
So in the end the ones with speed on the water were the happiest.
> I do think the correct measure of respect in rowing is earned by how
> fast you make a boat go.
Since most of the respect goes to speed on the water, I always reserve
some of my respect for the champion spirits with more strength than
speed.
> I've met people with very very different pain thresholds. A friend
> of mine has never taken novocaine for tooth filling, he's never
> found it necessary - the drilling pain is a nuisance.
I knew a Royal Navy Commander who had his teeth pulled first (without
novocaine) in front of his men at sea during WWII. Hurt him plenty,
but he felt he had to set an example, so he showed no outward signs.
Trevor Chambers
Geoffrey,
I don't seriously think that anyone in this thread is trying to do
Matthias, Rob, Klaus, Greg, or any of the other athletes a dissevice,
though I can see that it looks a bit like it.
The more I train, and the faster I get, the more admiration I have for
these guys...at the British champs Greg Searle won in 5:49, and that was
an awesome sight, I wish I could have ssen Matthias do 5:39. I wish I
could break 6 minutes...
Besides, unless you are worried about trying to make lightweight, who
really cares about weight? In our club ergo ladder, I'm leading, but I'd
need to break the world record to "beat" the next guy if you look at the
weight adjusted scores - which goes to show how silly the argument is.
Open events take no acocunt of weight per se, so it's not worth getting
all worked up about.
But surely we can have a discussion about it without denigrating people?
Trev
Sudbury RC
Sullys Maze
In article <E5wr5...@world.std.com>,>Su...@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze) writes:
deletia
>
>Since most of the respect goes to speed on the water, I always reserve
>some of my respect for the champion spirits with more strength than
>speed.
>
>> I've met people with very very different pain thresholds. A friend
>> of mine has never taken novocaine for tooth filling, he's never
>> found it necessary - the drilling pain is a nuisance.
>
>I knew a Royal Navy Commander who had his teeth pulled first (without
>novocaine) in front of his men at sea during WWII. Hurt him plenty,
>but he felt he had to set an example, so he showed no outward signs.
One thing that's interesting has been the demise of the 'erg fear'.
Rowers these days are universally willing to sit down and spin it.
In the 'olden' days, the erg terrified more than a few people, and
not just lesser achievers in the crew. I remember otherwise
extremely tough athletes mentally collapse when they sit down at the
the old Gamut or especially the Aussie machine.
There was a story of an athlete at the 1972 camp with national team
credentials leaving camp rather than do the erg testing.
The tooth pulling story of yours reminded me of that, the erg tests
used to resemble that scene, sitting around watching someone get his
teeth pulled out.
'Can I get some novocaine for this?' was a fairly common pre-erg
nervous joke.
Mike
Hcrunon
"Do I feel sad that Siejkowski has tried many
>times and not yet made the top ranks on the water? I do."
Wasn't Siejkowski in one of the German crews at Atlanta? H4-, I think? I
believe I heard one of the British commentators (on the FISA video)
identify him by name. If so, isn't it a little silly to say that he hasn't
reached a high level on water? Even if his style doesn't represent the
best elite-level rowing...
Howard Runyon
Chicago
TV
It seems to me that the purpose of erging is to make the wheel turn as
d\fast as possible....thats it. it isnt about, or subsidiary to, rowing,
or rowing technique, or making a boat move. Erging accomplishment stands
on its own, and those of you who who want to denigrate Siejkowski b/c he
suppossedly can't move a boat are interjecting a red herring into the
discussion, and displaying your considerable envy as well.
As far as I know, Siejkowski doesn't make any claim to be a rower, so
stop holding him to your self-serving standards. Your criticisms are
merely "the nipping of small dogs at the heels of a great man."
LeeAnn Tzeng
Geoffrey S Knauth wrote:
>
> I find it incredible that certain virtual rowers on the Internet so
> quickly take apart Matthias' achievement, namely, his 5:39.7 ergo
> world record on Sunday, attributing it merely to his weight, mocking
> his lack of comparable success on the water, and using equations and
> calculations to reduce a considerable human achievement. It is
> completely disrespectful of the athlete. Is cyberspace merely a
> refuge from the courtesy and courage required in real life?
>
You know, I think that this happens regardless of the area of the
achievement. In a slanted way, all this attack is a measure of the
admiration of the attackers. You don't see anyone attacking the runners
up in the 10th or so rankings, but they pulled some pretty nice times too.
It is the top which inspires us all, and it is the top which frightens us
all as well. Anyone who aspires toward achievement and mastery will feel
some degree of jealousy that someone else can do it. The subconscious, or
in some cases conscious, desire is to find some rationale, some
explanation, some excuse, some consolation as to why and how that someone
else did manage to do it. It is almost an attempt to believe that these
amazing folk are actually himan. I wouldn't categorize all of this as
debasing others' achievements. There is a healthy respect in there, or it
wouldn't warrant so much attention in the first place.
A musician friend of mine, a rather talented one at that, once went to a
Wynton Marsalis concert. His description of it later was that it was
"despiring". Whereas some concerts will generate a lot of inspiration and
leave one with a "go-get-'em" frame of mind, this one blew him so far out
of the water that his immediate reaction was "why don't I just quit now?"
Apply that scenario here. It can be terrifying to aspiring and
accomplished athletes alike to see performances of that caliber. Don't be
quite so horrified, Geoffrey. I don't think anyone really means any
disrespect to these athletes.
--LeeAnn
rodl...@aol.com
In article <5ehta2$i...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, chamb...@svhdev.bt.co.uk (Trevor Chambers) writes:
>Besides, unless you are worried about trying to make lightweight, who
>really cares about weight? In our club ergo ladder, I'm leading, but I'd
>need to break the world record to "beat" the next guy if you look at the
>weight adjusted scores - which goes to show how silly the argument is.
>Open events take no acocunt of weight per se, so it's not worth getting
>all worked up about.
In erging, weight ought to make more difference to results than on the water, but there are still only the same two weight categories. On the other hand, there are lots of age categories (although again based on rowing categories, I think). Perhaps the age categories should be pruned, but an intermediate weight category introduced. (Speaking as a member of the masters category, that could go for a start; 3 sub 6:00 in that category for instance, though not by me, I have to admit). Having after my initial shock realised the Veterans are handicapped anyway, you could lump the two veterans categories together too, so you'd be left with (for instance) Open,Senior, Veteran at openweight, intermediate weight and lightweight, all for men and women.
That's basically 9 categories each sex as against 10 now. (Plus some juniors somewhere of course).
Rod.
Disclaimer; the opinions expressed are not nescessarily yours.