Winter training in ex-DDR
Nikola
I'm suspose to write an article conciderig training during the winter period
in former DDR, thatis Eastern Germany, for a local rowing journal that I'm
involved in. So, as this is the place where rowers from all around the world
meet, regardless of their age, I would really appreciate your help, given in
various forms/sorts of information (wether these infos are your own
experiences, articles form the Internet or other rowing journals/magazines,
they are all welcome). So I urge, all those with a will to help to share
their thresaurus of rowing knowledge on this topic. I would need
informations on the program the ex -DDR rowers trained by, the extent of
their trainings during the winter (what part of cardio-preformance they
worked on the most) what notion of training did they use as a substitute for
the on- water trainings. Thanks in advance,
Nikola
PS. mail me at nik...@rowing.site.hr
anto...@aol.com
I believe they trained near or at lipzig. which is pretty close to the
central sport body so they didn't have to go far for their daily set of
"vitamin" pills.
Ewoud Dronkert
> informations on the program the ex -DDR rowers trained by, the extent of
> their trainings during the winter (what part of cardio-preformance they
> worked on the most) what notion of training did they use as a substitute for
> the on- water trainings. Thanks in advance,
I wouldn't know, but try and reach Andreas Leichtfuss, now
"profitrainer" for Grashopper Club Zürich (Switzerland),
http://www.gcz-rudern.ch/ He was a rowing coach in the DDR.
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anto...@aol.com
Ewoud Dronkert
> Andreas has not been at GCZ since 2000 or thereabouts
Oh OK, but I do know he still lives in Switzerland. Other club, national
team?
Nikola
>
> I believe they trained near or at lipzig. which is pretty close to the
> central sport body so they didn't have to go far for their daily set of
> "vitamin" pills.
>
hm...well I'm rather suspicious concidering those infamous vitamin pills
a.k.a. androgene steroid suplements...I do not believe so easily that their
success relied in such great deal to those notions to get in front of the
rest of the competing field from the west...maybee i'm naive but I reckon
that their extraordinary preformance is all about the harsh training system
they were subjected to...and that is why I'm writing an article about
that....
Mike Sullivan
"Nikola" <tatjan...@zg.t-com.hr> wrote in message
news:cs1b4o$bnj$1...@ls219.htnet.hr...
you don't perform by drugs alone for sure, but steroids are most helpful for
helping athletes recover more quickly so that they can do more work.
The point isn't to take the drugs all year round, but to use them during
peak heavy training periods, varying usefullness between men and women
because of the hormonal differences.
Mike
Henning Lippke
> I reckon
> that their extraordinary preformance is all about the harsh training system
> they were subjected to...and that is why I'm writing an article about
> that....
Rumour says that it's also to their way of recruiting new rowers. Going
into schools and taking extraordinary tall people with them - own
volition was not a factor.
Donal Casey
If so I could do with the harsh regime to get rid of my XMAS excess
Donal
Jon Anderson
> Is there not an ex DDR coach in England?????
> If so I could do with the harsh regime to get rid of my XMAS excess
Ring Leander and ask for "Jurgen".
It will help if you fib and tell him you can pull 5:50 for a 2K.
Jon
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[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]
anto...@aol.com
You didn't sit next to East German women at regattas who had
significant facial hair and adams apples in their throats and when they
spoke had deep voices.
Yes they had huge and harsh training but the only reason they survived
was because they took steroids which massively spped up muscle repair.
There is a reason Nikola why some East German coaches are in Jail.
Because they gave drugs to Juniors. The ones who gave drugs to seniors
are walking around and have other jobs because apparently the seniors
could make their own decisions, despite the fact they were often
oblivious. Those coaches are very lucky and their justifications
pathetic. Some cleaned up and some went to China.
Some of the athletes and committed suicide and some are sterile and
some are deformed or have gender issues.
None of these things Nikola were caused by the harsh training plans.
Go read the Stazi notes if you want to know about it. Or read
this........
BERLIN -- The two top leaders of East Germany's sport-doping program
were found guilty Tuesday of willfully inflicting bodily harm on more
than 140 young women athletes.
Manfred Ewald, chief of the former East Germany's sports program, was
convicted of being "the driving force" behind a program that gave
steroids to girls as young as 11, who were told they were taking
vitamins.
The rest is here
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37631,00.html
Take your article and shove it pal. A lot of people trained very hard
only to have to race this cheating scum. And a lot of kids were ruined
for life.
Ewoud Dronkert
> Take your article and shove it pal.
"I think you are being very rude."
You are right about the doping excesses, but I think the program was
mainly aimed at female athletes, much less the men. And besides the
excellent doping regime, they also had professional training programs
ahead of their time. Especially the centralized sporting institutions
got wide following.
Kit Davies
<snip>
> .. And besides the
> excellent doping regime, they also had professional training programs
> ahead of their time. Especially the centralized sporting institutions
> got wide following.
>
Indeed.
I am in the middle of reading Steve Redgrave's autobiography. Several
times he talks about how GB rowing has improved since he started and he
puts it down to the ability for GB elite oarsmen to train full time.
When talking about the use of drugs in the DDR team, he goes on to say
words to the effect of "Well, if I could beat them, then it didn't help
them much!".
Rather, from his own experience, he puts the success of the DDR crews
down to their state control and funding, allowing them to train
full-time when their international opposition were all still largely
holding down full-time jobs. As the playing field levelled (in terms of
training time available), the DDR advantage largely disappeared.
Kit
Jon Anderson
> When talking about the use of drugs in the DDR team, he goes on to say
> words to the effect of "Well, if I could beat them, then it didn't help
> them much!".
He didn't race the the DDR women's squad I bet.
If there was some period of total domination in targetted Olympic events
by the DDR then surely the boycotted 1984 would show up as a strangely
barren year for them, wouldn't it?
Let's look at Olympic women's eight gold medallists:
1976 - East Germany
1980 - East Germany
1984 - USA
1988 - East Germany
But wait - this doesn't show much. Let's look at women's coxed fours
results too.
1976 - East Germany
1980 - East Germany
1984 - Romania
1988 - East Germany
Pah. Let's look at the women's quad sculls results:
1976 - East Germany
1980 - East Germany
1984 - Romania
1988 - East Germany
Maybe there's something in this.
To round off the rest of the events DDR seemed to be good in:
Double sculls:
1976 - Silver
1980 - Silver
1984 - Weren't there
1988 - Gold
Single sculls:
1976 - Gold
1980 - Bronze
1984 - Weren't there
1988 - Gold
Coxless pairs:
1976 - Silver
1980 - Gold
1984 - Weren't there
1988 - Didn't medal for once
Someone said something about the drug programme being targetted mainly
at the women didn't they? As far as I can see, the DDR women's squad
failed to medal just *once* in ALL Olympic events they contested.
Obviously those drugs helped a little bit.
I really have to get back to work now....
Ewoud Dronkert
> As far as I can see, the DDR women's squad failed to
> medal just *once* in ALL Olympic events they contested.
> Obviously those drugs helped a little bit.
It can't be obvious just from the results, results prove nothing, only
who was the fastest crew on that day.
And that day, and that day... So obviously they were doing something
structurally better than the rest of the world. It has since long been
"revealed" that part of that was widespread doping, especially in
athletics and swimming, probably rowing too. But now people tend to
overlook the good sides of the DDR sports programme (thanks Kit).
As an aside: technique is overrated :)
anto...@aol.com
times he talks about how GB rowing has improved since he started and he
puts it down to the ability for GB elite oarsmen to train full time."
Of course Redgrave will say that! His coach was up to his neck in it.
And anyhow, anyone who ever trained under Spracklen before the East
German influence came to pass in the land called Leander will vouch
that his programs were pretty damn hard too and didn't achieve the same
dominance.
"When talking about the use of drugs in the DDR team, he goes on to say
words to the effect of "Well, if I could beat them, then it didn't help
them much!"."
Also by the time Redgrave got to the top of the pile the East German
system was being seen through, being tested for and being caught and
generally crumbling. 73-84 were the key years.
Look there is no arguement that the professional training regime
certainly gave them an advantage as well as the funding, (Doctors and
drugs are expensive). However what they did was evil, cheating and
illegal.
Steroids cetainly are more effective on women than men........and more
destructive!
Kit Davies
certainly wouldn't want to just gloss over their use. Doping is
totally unacceptable. But my maybe you cant put it all down to drugs.
But I believe we shouldn't underestimate the influence of a massive,
well-organised, well-funded, professional state regime that identified
talent very early and pushed it hard. Compared to the lawyers and
accountants we sent to race them, it is really no wonder they outclassed us.
Kit
Ewoud Dronkert
> Doping is totally unacceptable.
I tend to agree, but there are some oddities concerning The List, and
Dick Pound is a total wanker. For some perspective, also read:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/0f708b325d552745
> Compared to the lawyers and accountants we sent to race them, it
> is really no wonder they outclassed us.
HAHA!
Nikola
"Kit Davies" <kda...@kidare.REMOVE_THIS.com> wrote in message
news:41e50cf7$0$13015$ed2e...@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>
>
>
> Rather, from his own experience, he puts the success of the DDR crews
> down to their state control and funding, allowing them to train
> full-time when their international opposition were all still largely
> holding down full-time jobs. As the playing field levelled (in terms of
> training time available), the DDR advantage largely disappeared.
>
> Kit
I concur, that makes sense...and if you compare the times of the world top
athletes in the period between '70s and the end od '80s you can see that the
results of that time are well of pace of the today top rowers...ofcourse,
you have to take in mind that in those days the rowing equipment (racing
shells and oars) was largely different they are now and because of that the
results are not compatable. Yet, however, I doubt that this tehnical aspect
could make such a difference that the DDR athletes would have outpreformed
modern world elite rowers, provided the conditions and equipment which top
rowers have today.
anto...@aol.com
The facts are recorded the evidence given in court and clear to see.
This is like those people who say the Holocaust did not happen.
I won't contribute again on this topic.
Mike Sullivan
"Ewoud Dronkert" <firs...@lastname.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:osr9u05u3gbfbj1eu...@4ax.com...
> On 11 Jan 2005 15:48:49 -0800, anto...@aol.com wrote:
> > Take your article and shove it pal.
>
> "I think you are being very rude."
>
> You are right about the doping excesses, but I think the program was
> mainly aimed at female athletes, much less the men. And besides the
> excellent doping regime, they also had professional training programs
> ahead of their time. Especially the centralized sporting institutions
> got wide following.
I know so very little about it, I had an opportunity to talk to an
Eastie crew in Amsterdam when their van broke down. They were
quite friendly and talkative about their training until the 'manager' found
out I did understand Deutsch.
I have a DDR rowing book at home, translated in the late 70s. It covers
all aspects of the program up to the elite level training, and of course,
drugs. I was impressed with the sports approach for kids, lots of time
with lots of different sports but in a non competitive atmosphere. They
emphasized learning sculling at age 12-14 but strictly at a recreational
and touring level, then starting to train and race more at 16 and over.
According to the book, kids tried all kinds of sports, and the best of
aptitude and potential were selected to attend a sports academy where
they went to school and concentrated on their sport.
Sounded somewhat draconian, but I would have LOVED it as a kid
and in high school. In many respects, the state approach (as I read it)
is no different than a pushy sports dad like we have here in the US -
I know quite a few and fight those tendencies myself.
I'd be very interested in a critical look at their programming, and details
on who was drugged and who was not. I still consider the Dresden
straight four to be the best crew of all time, and naively hope that they
were not using steroids - it's my understanding that steroids were
not universally used in rowing in the DDR.
Mike
Mike Sullivan
"Jon Anderson" <j...@durge.org> wrote in message
news:cs34km$r6d$1...@heisenberg.grid-zero.net...
> Kit Davies wrote:
> > When talking about the use of drugs in the DDR team, he goes on to say
> > words to the effect of "Well, if I could beat them, then it didn't help
> > them much!".
>
> He didn't race the the DDR women's squad I bet.
This was very well done. It's also interesting that when
the Chinese emerged on the swimming scene and rowing
scene in the 90s, it was all women! They disappeared
dramatically in '96 when the drug testing was tightened up.
Steroids have a competitive benefit to men who use them
to train harder, but they have an additional physiological
'benefit' to women. (note - benefit in the competitive sense).
Mike
Mike Sullivan
"Kit Davies" <kda...@kidare.REMOVE_THIS.com> wrote in message
news:41e50cf7$0$13015$ed2e...@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> <snip>
snip
> Rather, from his own experience, he puts the success of the DDR crews
> down to their state control and funding, allowing them to train
> full-time when their international opposition were all still largely
> holding down full-time jobs. As the playing field levelled (in terms of
> training time available), the DDR advantage largely disappeared.
Can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US, even as late
as '76 when we were well aware of the training methods the Easties
were using, many of the best US athletes allowed themselves to
simply fall out of shape for a period of 3-4 months every year. They'd
come back and train very intensely and their athletic ability and toughness
would shine through eventually by race season, but there was little
concept of development of the individual from year to year, aerobically
and technically.
That being said, the mileage the DDR athletes did was impressive. It wasn't
overly intense work, but time consuming and well planned. Steroids
would have been a useful tool for the peak loads among the men to keep
them able to recover under the loads, then they could drop the drugs
when the load comes off and the training shifts from aerobic heavy miles
to periodization intervals.
This, I suspect, is how Barry Bonds (the baseball player) does it.
It would be most useful for him to do his heavy lifting program from
November through February, using drugs judiciously during periods
of peak loads to help him recover and build strength. He trains very
hard and thoroughly. After his peak work, drop the drugs as he
shifts to a more maintenance and fitness training, as well as emphasizing
hitting technique.
I had one of my college rowers in 1982 come to me and ask
me if it was all right if he started taking steroids. I immediately
told him no, it would be wrong, and then had to furiously go find
somebody to teach me what steroids were, what they did, and
what were the positive/negative effects. Thank goodness for the
UCI medical school. Later, I had the athlete meet with a physician
to educate him on the science behind it. No, he never took them.
Mike
Phil Metcalfe
Casey <donal...@gmail.com> writes
>Is there not an ex DDR coach in England?????
>If so I could do with the harsh regime to get rid of my XMAS excess
>
>Donal
DR Ernst Herberger et. al.
19783 Sports Book Publishing ISBN 0 7727-3396-4
--
Phil Metcalfe
Phil Metcalfe
>If so I could do with the harsh regime to get rid of my XMAS excess
>
>Donal
Rowing -Rudern Dr Ernst Herberger et al
1983 Sport Books Publisher IBSN 0-7737-2206-4
ARA training Booklets produced in the early 80;s Training for Rowing
By Bob Januosek. Penny Chuter & the GB Junior at the time
I got mine shortly after he became GB coach
--
Phil Metcalfe