Resolute vs. Vespoli vs. Empacher
Brady M. Bustany
- I would like to start a discussion about the differences between these three boat manufacturers. Does anyone have any experience rowing/rigging/repairing all three of these shells?
Jim Dwyer
"Brady M. Bustany" (bra...@umich.edu) writes:
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> I would like to start a discussion about the differences between these
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> rowing/rigging/repairing all three of these shells?
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> <DT>I would like to start a discussion about the differences between these
> three boat manufacturers. Does anyone have any experience rowing/rigging/repairing
> all three of these shells? </DT>
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Wha about Hudson? Their boats did well at the last Olympics and the new 8
has many design improvements over the above mentioned boats. Such as 4
wing riggers for the 8+.
--
Jim Dwyer
London, Ontario
Canada
oarsman
Hudsons are undoubtley faster and are comparable in wieght to fisa
standars. The small boats are definatley faster than the vespo small
boats. However the best thing vespoli has going for them is Dave Trond. It
is called service. Peopole respect and appreciate a company that can
offer fast and quick service. I have never seen Mr. Dibble (Dirigo)at any
convention or large regatta. I did see the Hudson people at the convention
this year, and if they ever got someone like Dave Trond they would be
truly unstoppable.
Example: US Rowing Level 2 coaches clinic
Vespoli has a free dinner I believe saturday night, and who else but Dave
will be there.
Just could not help but point out
2 x Vespoli or Hudson 8+ = 1 x Empacher or Resolute
Jim Hall
gdo...@dynanet.com
In article <5d88ao$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ch...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
>
>Wha about Hudson? Their boats did well at the last Olympics and the new 8
>has many design improvements over the above mentioned boats. Such as 4
>wing riggers for the 8+.
>
>--
>Jim Dwyer
>London, Ontario
>Canada
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970204230955.21554B-100000@pirates>, oarsman says...
I'm pretty sure the Hudsons and Vespolis raced at the Olympics were
custom, made-to-order boats. I believe these are not (at this point
in time) the boats available "off the rack". If you order a regular
shell, I don't think you're going to get an 'Olympic Special'. However,
I would presume that anyone COULD order a custom boat from them,
provided they fork over the money.
Unfortunately, the reality is that you have to pay for speed, and a
$4500 boat (1X) is not in the same mould as a $7000 boat.
It has been argued that the disparity of quality--cost may be lessened
however, if minimum weights are increased a bit. I believe this is one
proposal before FISA's impending congress, isn't it?
As far as good service goes, I would have to single out Alex Selvig for
his excellent handling of Filippi (curiously not included the original
discussion thread). Communicating with Empacher by fax is pretty decent
as well.
Greg Doyle
Philadelphia, Pa.
Andrew G. W. Carter
gdo...@dynanet.com wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the Hudsons and Vespolis raced at the Olympics were
> custom, made-to-order boats. I believe these are not (at this point
> in time) the boats available "off the rack". If you order a regular
> shell, I don't think you're going to get an 'Olympic Special'. However,
> I would presume that anyone COULD order a custom boat from them,
> provided they fork over the money.
-snip-
I cannot speak for the Vespoli 4- raced by the US Lwt. Men, but the
five Hudsons used by the Canadians (Women 1x, Women 2-, Women 2x,
Women 4x, and Lwt. Men 4-) were all "off the rack". The only
modifications (beyond Silken's 1x) were made by the coaches (i.e.
rigging). All lessons learned by Hudson from the use of their boats
at the Olympics Championships are used in all future production boats,
regardless of who they are for. The cost of these "Olympic Specials"
are those published by Hudson.
Silken' 1x, on the other hand was a custom built boat, albeit with the
same hull shape and construction as you or I would receive. Her
cockpit was lower than the production models (by her own request) and
she had a rigger made of larger diameter aluminum. Hudson will make a
custom rigger for anyone if asked.
>
> Unfortunately, the reality is that you have to pay for speed, and a
> $4500 boat (1X) is not in the same mould as a $7000 boat.
-snip-
As described, a Hudson hull (mould) is a Hudson hull. You can be
assured that if you pay $4500 (give or take) to Hudson, you will
receive the same hull as Silken, if you order the same size.
-snip-
> As far as good service goes, I would have to single out Alex Selvig for
> his excellent handling of Filippi (curiously not included the original
> discussion thread). Communicating with Empacher by fax is pretty decent
> as well.
>
> Greg Doyle
> Philadelphia, Pa.
I can't argue with the quality of service Dave Trond provides and
can't comment on Alex Selvig due to lack of experience, but I have had
very good experiences dealing with Gord Henry (crew boat sales and
service), Hugh Hudson (singles sales and service) and Jack Coughlan
(owner) at Hudson.
-Andrew Carter
Brady M. Bustany
- All good comments about service and all, and I didn't mean to leave out Hudson other than the fact that I've never dealt with their product. What I was hoping to generate a discussion about, however, is the design and speed of the shells. I think the service across the board is pretty good. I've heard great stories about Resolute, and I've had Dave forget to send me stuff he promised to. That's really periferal. I'm interested in what people's experience has been in the boats from a speed/rowability/maintenance perspective? Anyone out there even deal with a Resolute so far? My understanding is that the construction is "next generation" that eliminates ribs and *doubles* stiffness. Is this bunk or will Resolutes be the next rage at the elite level? (I'm focusing primarily on 8+, by the way).
- Brady
Don LeBlanc
gdo...@dynanet.com wrote:
>
> In article <5d88ao$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ch...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
>
> >
> >Wha about Hudson? Their boats did well at the last Olympics and the new 8
> >has many design improvements over the above mentioned boats. Such as 4
> >wing riggers for the 8+.
> >
> >--
> >Jim Dwyer
> >London, Ontario
> >Canada
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970204230955.21554B-100000@pirates>, oarsman says...
> >
> >Hudsons are undoubtley faster and are comparable in wieght to fisa
> >standars. The small boats are definatley faster than the vespo small
> >boats. However the best thing vespoli has going for them is Dave Trond. It
> >is called service. Peopole respect and appreciate a company that can
> >offer fast and quick service. I have never seen Mr. Dibble (Dirigo)at any
> >convention or large regatta. I did see the Hudson people at the convention
> >this year, and if they ever got someone like Dave Trond they would be
> >truly unstoppable.
> >Example: US Rowing Level 2 coaches clinic
> >Vespoli has a free dinner I believe saturday night, and who else but Dave
> >will be there.
> >
> >
> > Just could not help but point out
> > 2 x Vespoli or Hudson 8+ = 1 x Empacher or Resolute
> > Jim Hall
>
> custom, made-to-order boats. I believe these are not (at this point
> in time) the boats available "off the rack". If you order a regular
> shell, I don't think you're going to get an 'Olympic Special'. However,
> I would presume that anyone COULD order a custom boat from them,
> provided they fork over the money.
>
> $4500 boat (1X) is not in the same mould as a $7000 boat.
> however, if minimum weights are increased a bit. I believe this is one
> proposal before FISA's impending congress, isn't it?
>
Don LeBlanc
DOYLE, YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THAT THE BOAT MAKES THE
DIFFERENCE,,I HOPE YOU ARE KIDDING,,,HAVE TIMES GONE DOWN THAT MUCH FOR
YOU TO SAY THAT,,,CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR ANSWER. DON.
Cynthia S Donnell
I would disagree with the original post in reference to Charlie
Dibble's absence at conventions. My club bought it's first new boat
from Schoenbrod and I gave Mr. Dibble the deposit personally - at a
USRA convention.
He is always accessible via telephone and ready to give info on repair
techniques and products, etc., etc. I have always found him to be
extremely cooperative and ready to stand behind his boats. I was the
equipment manager of my club for 6 years so this isn't idle chatter.
Cindy Donnell
VBC, Richmond
gdo...@dynanet.com
In article <32FC8E...@worldnet.att.net>, Don says...
>
>gdo...@dynanet.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, the reality is that you have to pay for speed, and a
>> $4500 boat (1X) is not in the same mould as a $7000 boat.
>> It has been argued that the disparity of quality--cost may be lessened
>> however, if minimum weights are increased a bit. I believe this is one
>> proposal before FISA's impending congress, isn't it?
>>
>
>DOYLE, YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THAT THE BOAT MAKES THE
>DIFFERENCE,,I HOPE YOU ARE KIDDING,,,HAVE TIMES GONE DOWN THAT MUCH FOR
>YOU TO SAY THAT,,,CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR ANSWER. DON.
It costs more money/time to make a boat stiffer and lighter. End of story,
unless you don't mind rowing a 30 pound rubber noodle at the Worlds.
The boat is not THE determining factor of speed, but it is A factor.
And yes, times have gone down significantly since the introduction of
carbon fiber boats, lighter stiffer oars, better riggers. Mind you the
hull shape has not changed too much, exception: Resolute's efforts with
their eight.
Bottom line: if you think you can lug it down the course row it, but
don't be alarmed if an equally talented rower passes you like a
black-striped yellow blur ;-)
Not saying others can't make a good boat too....just saying you'll
pay for it, German, Swiss, Aussie, American, Canadian or Swahili.
Greg Doyle
Philadelphia, Pa.
David S.
gdo...@dynanet.com wrote:
>
> It costs more money/time to make a boat stiffer and lighter. End of story,
> Not saying others can't make a good boat too....just saying you'll
> pay for it, German, Swiss, Aussie, American, Canadian or Swahili.
>
the exchange rate differences between American or Canadian dollars and
Deutschmarks or Swiss francs. The premium you're paying for an Empacher
hasn't all gone into making the boat better. Even if it really is
better ...
> Greg Doyle
> Philadelphia, Pa.
David S.
dav...@flybane.berkeley.edu
.
thebat
thebat wrote:
> >I think price is becoming less of an issue; now it is demand and
> >turnover time at the factory.
> >
> gdoyle wrote:
> If price is not an determining factor of boat quality, someone PLEASE
> pass this VITAL(!!) information to FISA, currently considering raising
> the minimum weights of racing shells to bring down the costs. Obviously
> they are misguided and you 38 lb. "club tub" rowers are right.
>
> From what I am reading in some of your posts, it sounds like countries
> should just buy the cheaper shells anyway.....since PRICE does not reflect
> quality......
>
> Me.....I just really like the color YELLOW so I spent all my saved-up
> money for aesthetics.........
>
> Ho-hum......
>
> signed,
>
> "Poor in Philly"
>
> a.k.a
> Greg Doyle
> Philadelphia, Pa.
Greg, you're right all the way around--and what color single do I row???
I think that FISA is gonna shoot down the increased boat weight
proposal; we'll know for sure by next week.
John and Christa
You are right charlie is always available when you need him. The
problem is his boats get soft too fast. just my 2 cents
John
Mrkowal
By soft, what exactly do you mean?
oarsman
I own an owen and I have never had the oarlock come loose from the stay.
It is just as light as a friend of mine's hudson and lighter than another
friends vespoli, could you explain what you mean because you are very
unclear.
On 17 Feb 1997, PERMABOW wrote:
> I have rowed in vespoli eights and fours plus some owen fours pairs and
> singles and a hudson pair extensivly, and put of these componies i must
> say that the hudson blew the others out of the water. It was stiffer
> lighter and never needed repairs. Th eproblem with the owens is there
> oarlock always comes lose from the stay no matter how hard you wrench it
> down. Although I liked the vespoli eight and fours they just were not what
> i wanted and where way to heavy and always seemed to have problems. I have
> also rowed in a pocock K4 shell which was amazing (same boat that was
> rowed in the olympicsby th womans four), it was the best pocock i've ever
> rowed in. But the hudsons have to be the best small boats and i have heard
> many good things from the Brentwood guys in canada and they love theres.
> Owen is coming out with an eight soon and i would love to see it, owens
> have to be some of the best looking boats out there. keep on rowing.
> Chris Domine
> Lake Washington Rowing Center
> Seattle, Wa.
>
>
>
PERMABOW
Jay Feenan
In article <5dq860$m...@lana.zippo.com>, gdo...@dynanet.com writes...
.
.
.
>If price is not an determining factor of boat quality, someone PLEASE
>pass this VITAL(!!) information to FISA, currently considering raising
>the minimum weights of racing shells to bring down the costs. Obviously
>they are misguided and you 38 lb. "club tub" rowers are right.
Actually talking to Emparcher, their arguement to FISA is that raising
the weight will have little impact on the price, no impact on quality
but a significant impact on the 'race life' of the boat.
.
.
.
>Me.....I just really like the color YELLOW so I spent all my saved-up
>money for aesthetics.........
>
So you bought a Dirigo?
.
.
.
Jay Feenan
gdo...@dynanet.com
In article <5efgn0$g...@nedc.us.oracle.com>, fee...@us.oracle.com says...
>
>
>In article <5dq860$m...@lana.zippo.com>, gdo...@dynanet.com writes...
>.
>.
>.
>>If price is not an determining factor of boat quality, someone PLEASE
>>pass this VITAL(!!) information to FISA, currently considering raising
>>the minimum weights of racing shells to bring down the costs. Obviously
>>they are misguided and you 38 lb. "club tub" rowers are right.
>
>Actually talking to Emparcher, their arguement to FISA is that raising
>the weight will have little impact on the price, no impact on quality
>but a significant impact on the 'race life' of the boat.
I would argue that if a boat can last you five years instead of three,
then the ultimate result IS cost reduction. You'll still pay the same
price for most boats...you just won't pay it as often...
>.
>.
>.
>>Me.....I just really like the color YELLOW so I spent all my saved-up
>>money for aesthetics.........
>>
>
>So you bought a Dirigo?
>
Funny....I'm actually quite surprised no one else made that joke.....
>.
>.
>.
>
>
>Jay Feenan
>
BTW - what was the outcome of FISA's decision on whether to raise the
minimum weight?
Greg Doyle
Philadelphia, Pa.
Chris Stepanian
Mrkowal wrote:
>
> By soft, what exactly do you mean?
Charlie uses Kevlar 149 fabric in his Dirigo line of boats. Kevlar is
pretty interesting stuff with some major plusses and minuses. It,
because of its relatively low density and reasonable strength/stiffness
properties, has better SPECIFIC modulus and strength properties than
standard low-cost graphite. It also tends to stand up to impact damage
better than other composites. It has some drawbacks also. Kevlar has a
greater ability to absorb water than do other common 'composite' fibers.
It does not tend to bond well to the epoxy that is used with it to
create a composite. Both of these drawbacks tend to degrade the
structural performance of the boat (lets say overall structural
stiffness) at a faster rate than a composite boat made from glass or
graphite fibers. Kevlar is also susceptable to UV degradation. Seeing
that it is encased in a resin that has anti-UV additives, this is
usually not a problem. If you give a darn, have a look over at Dupont's
website
(http://www6.proxima.com:80/owens/composites/about/comparison/fiberdata.html).
The page is a fairly accurate table with some of the properties for
glass, carbon, and aramid (Kevlar is Dupont's brand) fibers.
When one is looking for a boat and you're told it's made of carbon fiber
your next questions should be:
- What kind of carbon fiber? (lots of different kinds with lots of
different material properties, some stiffer and stronger than others)
- Is it uni-directional or a woven textile form? (uni-directional
composites retain more of their IDEAL fiber properties)
- What percentage of the fibers used in the boat are carbon and what %
are of other types? What are those 'other' types and their properties?
- What is the fiber-VOLUME of the composite in the boat? (How much of
the composite is fiber and how much is resin - very important! A well
made aerospace grade composite structure made from pre-preg will have
around 60% fiber volume. Decreasing percentages of fiber in the
composite have a MAJOR impact on material properties like stiffness and
strength. I would guess that the standard hand layed-up boat would have
fiber volumes significantly less than 60%. More like 40%.
Lots of things to worry about but hey, it's your money!
Please note that I still firmly believe that a good crew in a bad boat
will SMOKE a bad crew in a good boat any day and all day.
Cheers,
c.
-------------------------------------
cs...@composit.ultranet.com (Chris Stepanian)
The Lorien Group -- "...Quis custodiet ipos custodes. |
Who watches the watchmen?" -- Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347
Composite Structure Design/Analysis/Manufacture
-------------------------------------
Jay Feenan
In article <5efj5o$s...@lana.zippo.com>, gdo...@dynanet.com writes...
.
.
.
>
>I would argue that if a boat can last you five years instead of three,
>then the ultimate result IS cost reduction. You'll still pay the same
>price for most boats...you just won't pay it as often...
Exactly the point I was trying to make [from the conversation with
Empacher]. Assuming life is defined as length of 'racing stiffness
usability'...the life is extended according to some boatbuilders 2x by
using more expensive materials...and since the cost of a boat is
largely labor the net dollars/pounds/marks/etc over say a 10 year
period is significantly more with inferior materials.
>
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>>Me.....I just really like the color YELLOW so I spent all my saved-up
>>>money for aesthetics.........
>>>
>>
>>So you bought a Dirigo?
>>
>
>Funny....I'm actually quite surprised no one else made that joke.....
couldn't resist.
.
.
.
>BTW - what was the outcome of FISA's decision on whether to raise the
>minimum weight?
>
>Greg Doyle
>Philadelphia, Pa.
Actually this did not come in the mail that I have received so I
don't know but will post when I find out he outcome [or someone else
can if they find it out sooner].
-jay feenan
johnshe...@gmail.com
wmar...@gmail.com
> Lets get this straight. Empacher is the best, then hudson, then nothing else matters.
carl
> Lets get this straight. Empacher is the best, then hudson, then nothing else matters.
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
Whoopee! Back to the RSR flame wars of over 20 yeas ago. Let's give
this one a stir:
Where's your evidence? Is ignorance bliss? Just asking.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
