Why Empacher?
Steve Morris
I've wondered about this for some time now and finally thought I'd actially
ask
people the question;
Why Empacher?
Even though Empacher's domminance at international level has been eaten into
recently by the likes of Fillipi, Vespoli and Hudson. Empacher still remains
the
default manufacturer for many international crews.
Was there really no credible alternative until recently? Again, I don't
think so. Aylings and Janousek for example have been around a long time and
as far as Iam aware produce quality racing shells which have had scant use
at international regattas despite the successes achieved in them..
What is it about Empacher that makes it the first or only choice for many
top-level crews?
I've looked at factors such as weight, rigidity, durability , cost and
design and cannot find a decisive element that sets them above the rest.
Any views on this would be appreciated.
--
Regards
Steve
Jim Dwyer
crews race most of the time. It is much cheaper to row an Empacher in
Europe than to have a boat built in NA then shipped over.
Jim
"Steve Morris" <Stephen...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3fe0c7ed$0$30383$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
Norbert
Availability: Most of the World Cup Events are held in Europe and only
the bigger European manufacturers have the capacity to provide rental
boats for overseas crews. Having rowed (and maybe succeded) in such a
boat most people tend to hold on to the make for the next race.
Competitive advantage/disadvantage: If you are not sure your boat is
better than your competitors equipment so at least you should make
sure it is not worse. So if most of the top crews row Empacher or
Filippi that is your choice if you are not sure.
Smaller probability of buying a lemon: Some people I know think
Empacher was the first manufacturer to built boats of constantly high
quality. So the risk of buying a lemon is (looking at it today:
probably was) maybe lower than with other makes.
Money: German and Italian top crews seem to get good deals on their
boats so there are economical reasons for them to use an Empacher or
Filippi, respectively.
Reputation/experience: a lot of clubs know from experience that
Empachers last long and that they can be passed down the line without
younger crews complaining (Empacher reputation) about bad equipment.
It takes time to built up such a reputation so younger companies will
have to work on it.
Norbert
Alex Selvig
Let me correct an error here. Empacher only had an estimated 25% of
the share of this year's worlds boats. Filippi had 53%, and many other
builders were very well represented.
The tide has changed. The perception that E is THE boat to be in no
longer exists among the world's elite crews.
Sooo 80's..
Cheers!
Alex Selvig
www.EliteRowing.com
Filippi Importers, USA and Canada
Christopher Shea
Chris Shea
"Steve Morris" <Stephen...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
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Mike T
90s.
I guess the same applies here - if you as head coach buy your 1st boat an
"xyz" brand boat, and they lose by 1 foot, you'll be an easy target. If
they lose in a 'pacher then you cant be blamed (not for the boat,
anyway.....)
rgds
mike
chris harrison
> Why Empacher?
Because if you're in the market for a sports car it has to be British
Racing Green (or, if it's a Ferrari, you're allowed red). Cars go faster
in BRG or Red, it's a fact. Incontrovertible you might even say.
So it is with boats, it's something about water and the colour yellow.
Maybe light at that frequency has strange hydro-dynamic, friction
reducing properties?
No-one really knows but yellow is just faster.
James Elder
fours and eights, compared to their British competitors, Empacher
offer greater consistency of build quality, an overall higher standard
of finishing and reliability in building to specification (i.e. if you
want a 75kg average boat, you get one - not whatever is convenient to
them).
The gap may be closing, but it is still there.
John Whyte
Sorry Cardiff.
--
Regards
John Whyte
Centre Manager
River Tees Watersports Centre
01642 628940 (office)
01642 628945 (fax)
07870 596320 (mobile)
www.riverteeswatersportscentre.co.uk
"chris harrison" <ne...@lowfield.com> wrote in message
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Martin Carr
I also think that one of the other points is that with Empachers,
historically have always supplied "off the peg" boats even at
international level (Carbon riggers notwithstanding). So even if you
are having to lease/rent a boat it will be little different to any
other Empacher you country's international squad may have
leased/rented before
This is contrary to say Aylings when SSR won gold at Sydney. The
estimate of cost for that 4- (which was highly bespoke) was not far
off Ł30k (this from memory was the figure quoted in Regatta post the
Olympics)
I have no idea though if any of the other boat suppliers follow the
'off the peg' route or the 'bespoke' route at the top level
Steve Morris
A few more questions if I may?
Why has Filippi only recently become so popular at top-level when they've
been around for years?
Also, surely the cost of importing a Fllippi into the U.S or Canada is much
more expensive than buying something like a Vespoli for example?
Finally, as there's so little to choose between the established
manufacturers, isn't it a case of psychology? i.e I "feel" good knowing I'm
in something used by other top athletes?
--
Regards
Steve
"Alex Selvig" <Al...@EliteRowing.com> wrote in message
news:2c8db72c.03121...@posting.google.com...
Steve Morris
case of the Pincent Cracknell pair which had their Empacher stiffened.
Which makes me wonder why they and the GB mens coxless four switched from
Aylings to Empacher and at around the same time the Danish mens lightweight
coxless four and pair switched from Empacher to Aylings?
At the end of the day it seems to me that neither team has especially gained
anything by changing boat builders. I have thought for a while now that it
really is "fashion" as one other poster said here, or perhaps what most
people think is best. Within reason I think a good crew will win in an
Empacher as well as an Aylings or other well made boat.
--
Regards
Steve
"Martin Carr" <mart...@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:95f95a68.03121...@posting.google.com...
> jamese...@excite.co.uk (James Elder) wrote in message
news:<bd245229.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > My personal experience over the last two or three years is that for
> > fours and eights, compared to their British competitors, Empacher
> > offer greater consistency of build quality, an overall higher standard
> > of finishing and reliability in building to specification (i.e. if you
> > want a 75kg average boat, you get one - not whatever is convenient to
> > them).
> >
> > The gap may be closing, but it is still there.
>
> I also think that one of the other points is that with Empachers,
> historically have always supplied "off the peg" boats even at
> international level (Carbon riggers notwithstanding). So even if you
> are having to lease/rent a boat it will be little different to any
> other Empacher you country's international squad may have
> leased/rented before
>
> This is contrary to say Aylings when SSR won gold at Sydney. The
> estimate of cost for that 4- (which was highly bespoke) was not far
> off £30k (this from memory was the figure quoted in Regatta post the
Longrow
> jamese...@excite.co.uk (James Elder) wrote in message news:<bd245229.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > My personal experience over the last two or three years is that for
> > fours and eights, compared to their British competitors, Empacher
> > offer greater consistency of build quality, an overall higher standard
> > of finishing and reliability in building to specification (i.e. if you
> > want a 75kg average boat, you get one - not whatever is convenient to
> > them).
> >
> > The gap may be closing, but it is still there.
>
> I also think that one of the other points is that with Empachers,
> historically have always supplied "off the peg" boats even at
> international level (Carbon riggers notwithstanding). So even if you
> are having to lease/rent a boat it will be little different to any
> other Empacher you country's international squad may have
> leased/rented before
>
> This is contrary to say Aylings when SSR won gold at Sydney. The
> estimate of cost for that 4- (which was highly bespoke) was not far
> Olympics)
>
> I have no idea though if any of the other boat suppliers follow the
> 'off the peg' route or the 'bespoke' route at the top level
3 words
Buy a Filippi
To be serious great boats and great back up.
Like any big player think of Ford and the Focus - good car but not the
greatest ever. Customer pressure/expectation and demand make it the
car it is.
In a similar vein Filippi and Empacher are big players - it just so
happens they can and do supply to major player in the sport ( ask
why?).Their boats are great. Aylings and CD etc etc do win some but
logic suggests the best may migrate to the boat that seems to win
most.
Remember it is the rower and the boat comes second every time.
However there must be some logic in that the winners use Filippi 53%
of the time against the rest (last world champs).
Remember the little red number from Italy in F1 wins all the time.
Currently!!!
Chris Wade
>However there must be some logic in that the winners use Filippi 53%
>of the time against the rest (last world champs).
>
>Remember the little red number from Italy in F1 wins all the time.
>Currently!!!
Other posters have made the comment about the number of boats that are
rented by national teams for use at major international regattas
(which I would hazard covers the WC's).
This being the case, and the WC's being in Italy, wouldn't it be
possible to conclude that part of the reason why Filippi had such a
high presence was to do with proximity (and a desire by the Italian
Rowing Federation to showcase all aspects of their country's prowess?
Call me a cynic, and I'm not knocking the boat, but having the 53%
figure come up twice needs some one to ask why...
Seasons greetings one and all!
Alex Selvig
conclusions.
Chris Wade <ch...@wado.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ghb7uvkf9lruv0pcq...@4ax.com>...
> This being the case, and the WC's being in Italy, wouldn't it be
> possible to conclude that part of the reason why Filippi had such a
> high presence was to do with proximity (and a desire by the Italian
> Rowing Federation to showcase all aspects of their country's prowess?
It would have been MUCH more convenient for Empacher to send boats to
Milan than Seville, Aiguebelette, Plovdiv, Trakia. Milan is four or
five hours drive time (if that) from Germany. I think Donoratico
(where Filippis are made) is four hours. If any national squads had
preferred Empacher over Filippi, it would have been a snap to provide
them. Empacher would not have been victims of any customs/border
hassle (all EU countries), either. What has actually taken place is a
change of faith among elite athletes. They can get most any top boat,
and made an informed choice.
Your comment about the Italian Team pushing Filippis is also
incorrect. They have a long and very strong relationship with
Empacher. Despite our best efforts, they use quite a few. The ITA
HPL8+ in an Empacher got spanked by the FRA8+ in a Filippi. The ITA H
8+ is also an Empacher, as well as a smattering of other boats. Many
teams, such as the US, Japan, Croatia, France, use a much higher
proportion of Filippis than the Italians. These and most other
countries do a fine job showcasing Italy's boatbuilding prowess.
> Call me a cynic, and I'm not knocking the boat, but having the 53%
> figure come up twice needs some one to ask why..
You are a cynic. Cynicism is good, until you offend someone.
Longboats? Who are you, and would you mind clearing my name? Thanks
for the kind compliments, they are sincerely appreciated.
Season's greetings to all!
Alex Selvig
www.EliteRowing.com
Filippi Importers, USA & Canada
Daniel Haude
in Msg. <aabc6f2f.0312...@posting.google.com>
> However there must be some logic in that the winners use Filippi 53%
> of the time against the rest (last world champs).
This kind of logic isn't that simple. It only works if brand X is
overrepresented among winners as compared to their fraction of boats used
in all races. Well, that didn't come out quite understandbly I'm
afraid. What I'm saying is that Filippi only looks good if the percentage
of Filippis used in racing is well below 53%.
--Daniel
--
"With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)
Neil Wallace
> Longboats? Who are you, and would you mind clearing my name? Thanks
> for the kind compliments, they are sincerely appreciated.
You mean the elusive "longrow"??
"Longrow" is a very nice special edition Speyside single malt whisky...
about £41 a bottle.
So he's probably a Scot.
He was looking for a heavyweight single.
And he's bought a Filippi in the last year...
hmmm.
I think I know who he is.
Ruth
> overrepresented among winners as compared to their fraction of boats used
> in all races. Well, that didn't come out quite understandbly I'm
> afraid. What I'm saying is that Filippi only looks good if the percentage
> of Filippis used in racing is well below 53%.
So, based on that theory, that must make Lola-Aylings, with the brand
new XST very successful. There was only one XST being used at Milan
and it won Gold with the Danish LM2-. That's 100% success rate! Watch
out for next year, though, with more International crews with orders
on the books :-) (Also, I believe Sykes may have been in the same
position!)
Dave Henderson
>
> I've wondered about this for some time now and finally thought I'd actially
> ask
> people the question;
>
> Why Empacher?
>
I know it's not an answer but – ‘success breeds success'.
When they were winning everything, Empacher relentlessly promoted
their own success - in a very honest way, it has to be said. They
would take full-page ads in all the international programmes, showing
just what they had won (and what they hadn't).
I'm looking at the back cover of the programme for the '97 Junior
Worlds, listing every crew in every world-class event in 1996 – top 12
for men, women, ltwts at the Olympics, top six for all the others,
including juniors. Out of 38 events listed, Empacher won 23 of them
and got at least silver in all but two. Out of 114 medals in total,
they got 72.
Examples: in the men's singles, they didn't win Gold (Switzerland –
now who could that be, in what boat?) but they filled all the
remaining 11 places. They didn't win 2- either (no prizes there) but
took second through tenth. They had top six in men's doubles, men's
eights and women's eights, and scooped all the medals in women's ltwt
doubles, men's coxed pairs, women's 4- and ltwt 2-, plus junior men's
eights and 2+.
With that kind of track record, and that kind of publicity, the
surprise is not that they were so dominant, but that the others
managed to break their stranglehold.
Dave H
Alister Taylor
> So, based on that theory, that must make Lola-Aylings, with the brand
> new XST very successful. There was only one XST being used at Milan
> and it won Gold with the Danish LM2-. That's 100% success rate! Watch
> out for next year, though, with more International crews with orders
> on the books :-) (Also, I believe Sykes may have been in the same
> position!)
As far as I can remember (I STILL haven't seen the videos) Sykes had 2
boats there. Jimmy and Drew won the pair (really...) and
Crawshay/Hardcastle came 6th in the 2x (after losing Lucerne by the
proverbial). So not as successful, but as a parochial Australian, I
know which I'd rather be rowing.
Regards,
Al
Alex Selvig
Dave, that was 1996, seven years ago, Junior events. E have been, and
continue to be very successful. Their dominant position was quite
strong in 1996. Times have changed ;-)
Happy holidays, all!
Marc Gwadz
reflect 2003 worlds on their website
cheers,
marc
http://www.empacher.com/index_e.html
Henning Lippke
> reflect 2003 worlds on their website
I guess the reason is that they have changed almost nothing since their
website relaunch in 2002.
But I've already seen a printed ad with the 2003 results on it.
-HL
Tony Curran
http://www.empacher.com/rennboote/1x_R_e.html
The Brit guy has Carl Douglas riggers on his E single?
Tony
Ottawa
"Marc Gwadz" <mgw...@helix.nih.gov> wrote in message
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mark parsons
over there under license???
After they loaned us one for the Head of the Charles I have been a massive
fan
"Steve Morris" <Stephen...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
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Andrew Trimble
ended up coxing KRSV Njord who came over for the weekend.
I was impressed. For all that I could tell from what was only a
couple of outings it felt fast, and very nicely put together.
A
"mark parsons" <rowe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<R2%1c.3686$zu.1273@newsfe1-win>...
Jamie Croly
for both have K86 Empacher 8's built about a year apart, but if you
put them next to eahc other would not be able to tell the difference.
I think this is important at an international level particularly when
boats are rented/leased for non european crews. To be able to arrive
at the regatta and set the boat the same as the one at home, get in it
and feel comfortable from the first stroke is very important. Our mens
2- only recently swithched to the S33 emp with carbon riggers as they
now have one at home to train in and so can arrive at the regatta and
feel comfortable in another emp S33.
2) I feel that Fillipis particularly are getting a big chunk of the
market mainly because of the costs. To rent a Fillipi at Worlds is
much much cheaper than to rent Emp's. So if you are on a budget with
parents paying the tour costs you have to make some compromises and
hope for the best. Im not saying that Filippis are not as good as Emps
but it is a gamble to see if you can get your crew settings right and
the crew comfortable in a limited time period once you arrive
Jamie