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How hard should I be pulling with my arms when finishing a stroke
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eveshamr...@gmail.com
Jul 22, 2014, 12:42:58 PM7/22/14
to
So I have been struggling all season with a bad finish. It has felt bad compared to last year. Loads of time off the water over the winter because of floods and I couldn't seem to find a good finish to my stroke. Too much time on the erg lost the feel for blades through the water, I have only been rowing for a few years. I definitely lost the ability to steer over the winter only just got that back and still got too close to the bank at the last regatta.
I was told that I was finishing with too much force coming from my arms. Even when square blade rowing tapping out of the water there seemed a resistance on the blades to come out. I think I was still pulling quite hard apply force through the blades when trying to tap down. So changing this to a more relaxed more of a draw through to the finish with the arms rather than a pull. It felt that the blades came out a lot easier also the noise of the blades coming out was reduced and the boat seemed to pick up more will need to investigate more with GPS. With less pull of the arms is my finish then going to be weak?
Can you please help with this. My coach gave a good explanation but was still saying I need a strong finish with the arms but need to in a sense come out of the hole in the water behind the blade I took this as I was pulling with the arms when trying to tap out. A fellow rower said as the hands cross more of a draw with the arms kind of like allowing the blades to move through the water with the boat.
So should I be pulling hard with the arms up until a certain point then allow the blades to move through the water into that pocket and then to tap out. So in a sense pressure on the arms until the last 5-10 centimeters?
How should the finish of the arms and tap out feel exactly?
Anyone else with a good explanation?
I was told that I was finishing with too much force coming from my arms. Even when square blade rowing tapping out of the water there seemed a resistance on the blades to come out. I think I was still pulling quite hard apply force through the blades when trying to tap down. So changing this to a more relaxed more of a draw through to the finish with the arms rather than a pull. It felt that the blades came out a lot easier also the noise of the blades coming out was reduced and the boat seemed to pick up more will need to investigate more with GPS. With less pull of the arms is my finish then going to be weak?
Can you please help with this. My coach gave a good explanation but was still saying I need a strong finish with the arms but need to in a sense come out of the hole in the water behind the blade I took this as I was pulling with the arms when trying to tap out. A fellow rower said as the hands cross more of a draw with the arms kind of like allowing the blades to move through the water with the boat.
So should I be pulling hard with the arms up until a certain point then allow the blades to move through the water into that pocket and then to tap out. So in a sense pressure on the arms until the last 5-10 centimeters?
How should the finish of the arms and tap out feel exactly?
Anyone else with a good explanation?
marko....@gmail.com
Jul 22, 2014, 3:14:38 PM7/22/14
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I'm also struggling with good finishes and have a similar question mark over it. After view tons of youtube videos (inc slow motion ones) I'm really none the wiser.
What seems to work the best for me at the moment is timing the the extraction just as the pressure starts naturally reducing on the blades as they near the end of the stroke when they are matched at the water speed. The blades then almost just gently slip out as you track the handles into the body. Hanging onto the stroke past this point results in the blade hanging up in the water, too early and there is still too much load on the blade and it splashes up water.
Alternatively pulling in strongly with the arms keeping max pressure on the footplate and blades still seems to be fairly effective though, if not as clean. I wonder if this is what coaches ask for when they ask for a 'strong finish'?
The 'Perfect Stroke' sequence by British Rowing says: "Release the pressure on the handle just before the small circle around the finish.
I've only been rowing/sculling for one year - I hope someone more qualified can assist!
What seems to work the best for me at the moment is timing the the extraction just as the pressure starts naturally reducing on the blades as they near the end of the stroke when they are matched at the water speed. The blades then almost just gently slip out as you track the handles into the body. Hanging onto the stroke past this point results in the blade hanging up in the water, too early and there is still too much load on the blade and it splashes up water.
Alternatively pulling in strongly with the arms keeping max pressure on the footplate and blades still seems to be fairly effective though, if not as clean. I wonder if this is what coaches ask for when they ask for a 'strong finish'?
The 'Perfect Stroke' sequence by British Rowing says: "Release the pressure on the handle just before the small circle around the finish.
I've only been rowing/sculling for one year - I hope someone more qualified can assist!
marko....@gmail.com
Jul 22, 2014, 3:33:01 PM7/22/14
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Example of finishes that look strong: http://youtu.be/mlwqtd3_H-I?t=16s
Example of finishes and look gentle: http://youtu.be/jBJq1Z105e8?t=46s
No idea which is more desirable
Example of finishes and look gentle: http://youtu.be/jBJq1Z105e8?t=46s
No idea which is more desirable
James HS
Jul 22, 2014, 4:17:21 PM7/22/14
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Strong finish gentle extraction.
From the start of the power part of the drive there are different things happening - advantageous at the beginning - when you are getting the boat going, less good during the middle when there is slip on the blade but the boat is moving faster and then more advantageous as you end the stroke as there is less slip, but you have used your muscles - however, this last section the boat is moving at its fastest and you have used most of the legs, but you have the back and arms.
If you just yank the end you will be in a bad place to extract, stabilise and start the recovery, but if you pull the pressure off too early then you are missing a point in the stroke when you can be effective.
IMHO rythm beats power any time, but you want as much power in there as you can apply and keep the rythm and that fits your fitness etc.
The pull through is also part of a debate - that of keeping the power right to the end - there are those that advocate square out and stop pressure just before that, and there are those that advocate keeping the pressure and feather out as even a small amount of pressure is better than nothing as long as your extraction is clean.
I am an advocate of the second and having watched some fast scullers I have seen that their blades do not come out square - their tap down brings the blade slicing out backwards for a really nice gentle extraction - the key is to do as little to upset the boat as possible as it is going at its fastest at this point.
So I use the longest possible elbows past the body that I can, feather and then bring the hands forward gently (with some alacrity but not snappy)- feeling the weight on the handles and hands away etc.
The other thing to note is there should not be an air pocket - that is cavitation and indicates that you have lost contact with the water and are possibly not deep enough.
So, in summary, the back and arms should certainly be powerful, but producing a good send not a yank, and preparing you for a gentle extraction and recovery.
It is hard to master - I think of smoothness and efficiency when I am doing this and I look at my telemetry - the biggest speed improver is rythm - i.e. repeating the stroke at predictable intervals with the highest efficiency I cam manage - this means applying the right amount of power to the system - to accelerate the boat and reach maximum speed and then do as little to interfere as possible while I re-load:)
I have watched this technique knock spots of yanking as I change between the two in a session - sometimes deliberately, sometimes because I have lost the magic and think I can force it (I can't)
Hope that helps!
James
From the start of the power part of the drive there are different things happening - advantageous at the beginning - when you are getting the boat going, less good during the middle when there is slip on the blade but the boat is moving faster and then more advantageous as you end the stroke as there is less slip, but you have used your muscles - however, this last section the boat is moving at its fastest and you have used most of the legs, but you have the back and arms.
If you just yank the end you will be in a bad place to extract, stabilise and start the recovery, but if you pull the pressure off too early then you are missing a point in the stroke when you can be effective.
IMHO rythm beats power any time, but you want as much power in there as you can apply and keep the rythm and that fits your fitness etc.
The pull through is also part of a debate - that of keeping the power right to the end - there are those that advocate square out and stop pressure just before that, and there are those that advocate keeping the pressure and feather out as even a small amount of pressure is better than nothing as long as your extraction is clean.
I am an advocate of the second and having watched some fast scullers I have seen that their blades do not come out square - their tap down brings the blade slicing out backwards for a really nice gentle extraction - the key is to do as little to upset the boat as possible as it is going at its fastest at this point.
So I use the longest possible elbows past the body that I can, feather and then bring the hands forward gently (with some alacrity but not snappy)- feeling the weight on the handles and hands away etc.
The other thing to note is there should not be an air pocket - that is cavitation and indicates that you have lost contact with the water and are possibly not deep enough.
So, in summary, the back and arms should certainly be powerful, but producing a good send not a yank, and preparing you for a gentle extraction and recovery.
It is hard to master - I think of smoothness and efficiency when I am doing this and I look at my telemetry - the biggest speed improver is rythm - i.e. repeating the stroke at predictable intervals with the highest efficiency I cam manage - this means applying the right amount of power to the system - to accelerate the boat and reach maximum speed and then do as little to interfere as possible while I re-load:)
I have watched this technique knock spots of yanking as I change between the two in a session - sometimes deliberately, sometimes because I have lost the magic and think I can force it (I can't)
Hope that helps!
James
Carl
Jul 22, 2014, 6:33:05 PM7/22/14
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Tension in your finish, due to the effort you're applying to pull hard,
& perhaps due to extraction concerns, can pit muscle groups against each
other. That tightens you up & results in a pile of useless work - i.e.
work done against yourself, not against water. If you can relax, you
may very well end up pulling harder but with less wasted effort & less fuss.
There is _no_ hole behind a well-applied & fully-loaded blade. That
supposed hole is not a good thing & it doesn't serve to facilitate the
extraction. I'm disappointed to hear that old saw is still being
trotted out.
If you aren't pulling hard very near the finish, then you aren't doing
useful work. At the finish your hands will slow down because the
gearing increases in severity, & because the loaded oar is bent & has to
straighten out by the point of extraction. That means the blade moves
relative to the pin while the hands may not still be moving - but the
hands will still be resisting a (decreasing) load even if not still moving.
You don't "tap down". Much nonsense is talked about square extractions
& vertical tap-downs but, since the boat is moving WRT the water, a
vertical movement of the blade out of the water requires a diagonal
down-&-to-the-bows movement of the hands WRT the boat. So the clean,
strong finish is rowed diagonally down, not in a pretty little
semicircle. But don't worry - that finish won't be weak, & you have
lots of time to accomplish it. Just forget the stuff you hear about
hands having to go away at the speed they came in. They come diagonally
down at the finish & then go horizontally away, & since they pass
through a point of reversal they must also, by definition, come at that
instant to a halt from which they have to re-start. They have no "speed
around the turn" to preserve.
That's enough china broken for one night, you may think?
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
wmar...@gmail.com
Jul 22, 2014, 9:38:16 PM7/22/14
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If you have the capacity, try to digitize the handle path. (a piece of overhead projector film, if you can find some, held on the screen - a line on the film with marks to indicate the gunwale and some rigger part will permit you to return the film to the same position wrt the boat each frame. Step through the stroke one frame at a time, digitize (put a mark on the film) a point on the handle at each frame (after you move the film so it's on the same position of the boat each frame - because it does move around in the screen during the stroke). Observe the downward curve of the handle towards the finish ("rowing out") - observe the moment the blade is feathered (varies with individual scullers) - observe catch motions, etc....
When you're watching the blade at the finish - note that what appears to be a pocket behind the blade MAY correspond with the blade getting less and less deep, forming a "wall" in front of it and a cavity behind as it rows out of the water. If there's a real "pocket" behind the blade you've sucked air in behind your blade through either "rowing in" or being too shallow...
Valgozi
Jul 23, 2014, 6:31:12 AM7/23/14
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Thank you for all your feedback, plenty to try. It is clear in my head what I need to achieve now at the finish....achieving will be the problem.
Rowing last night I was looking at the blades as they were coming out and through the last part of the stroke. There is no pocket behind them and no wall building in front (I do see a wall sometimes in sweep rowing) so coming out the pocket as the coach described would be difficult for me. This could be because of my blade depths but I have read the other thread on this and the heights also sound promising although I do know I dig a little deeper at certain times through the stroke but generally my blades are just buried, well thats what I aim for. Water above them but not enough I can't see the tops.
Going to film my finish with a cheap version of a GoPro I have just bought. I shall compare this to good looking finishes and strokes.
Just coming to the noise of a finish. Washing out is a swooosh noise. A really good finish should not be loud, so little water noise I have been told. Is this right?
I do not think I come out feathered I can see how this would also be loud but my finishes do seem loud. This might be because when you watch someone rowing you can't hear any noise because they are some way away. Reducing the pull of the arms does reduce this noise for me when square blading and normal rowing.
Plenty of practice to do at least I have a direction to go now with it, thanks
Rowing last night I was looking at the blades as they were coming out and through the last part of the stroke. There is no pocket behind them and no wall building in front (I do see a wall sometimes in sweep rowing) so coming out the pocket as the coach described would be difficult for me. This could be because of my blade depths but I have read the other thread on this and the heights also sound promising although I do know I dig a little deeper at certain times through the stroke but generally my blades are just buried, well thats what I aim for. Water above them but not enough I can't see the tops.
Going to film my finish with a cheap version of a GoPro I have just bought. I shall compare this to good looking finishes and strokes.
Just coming to the noise of a finish. Washing out is a swooosh noise. A really good finish should not be loud, so little water noise I have been told. Is this right?
I do not think I come out feathered I can see how this would also be loud but my finishes do seem loud. This might be because when you watch someone rowing you can't hear any noise because they are some way away. Reducing the pull of the arms does reduce this noise for me when square blading and normal rowing.
Plenty of practice to do at least I have a direction to go now with it, thanks
Carl
Jul 23, 2014, 7:23:49 AM7/23/14
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to tease out fact from popular rowing fiction.
Now to the "just buried" issue:
When we row shallow we call that washing out & we know, don't we?, that
this does not propel the boat so well (nor seem like such hard work,
since the washing blade completes the stroke arc sooner). And, yes,
"just buried" is a marked improvement on the washy stroke.
But why stop there? Why not bury it an inch or so deeper? Sure, the
popular view warns against burying any deeper, presuming that if you do
it all somehow goes wrong. But where's the evidence?
The simple fact, contrary to popular belief, is that you can safely bury
a lot deeper before the rate of improvement you got by going from
washing out to just buried starts to tail off. We had part of this
discussion last week in response to the thread: "Re: What is the best
blade depth?", & you might find this informative.
Finally the part-feathered finish:
There is no reason for it to be noisy, nor for it to chuck water
anywhere (which might be what you suppose). A part-feathered finish can
be highly efficient, the key point being that the propulsive load is not
on the face of the blade but on its convex back, & just like a sail or
wing its movement through the water under load, even in thos last
milliseconds, generates a useful lift force in the fore/aft direction.
Steve
Jul 26, 2014, 8:54:29 AM7/26/14
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I've also struggled with various aspects of "proper" technique and the
problem with trying to find what's "right" often leads to even more
confusion as you'll find contradictory opinions at even the highest levels
of the sport. So, what I'm slowly coming to terms with is that sometimes the
answer given two recommended variations of technique is to simply go for the
one that's best for YOU. It's too easy to get too entrenched in doctrine and
as long as your basic grasp of the required technique is right, how you do
it will be down to your own comfort or preference.
Try both of the types of finish you've posted links too and see what works
best for you.
--
Regards
Steve
<marko....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca6330e0-af58-4454...@googlegroups.com...
problem with trying to find what's "right" often leads to even more
confusion as you'll find contradictory opinions at even the highest levels
of the sport. So, what I'm slowly coming to terms with is that sometimes the
answer given two recommended variations of technique is to simply go for the
one that's best for YOU. It's too easy to get too entrenched in doctrine and
as long as your basic grasp of the required technique is right, how you do
it will be down to your own comfort or preference.
Try both of the types of finish you've posted links too and see what works
best for you.
--
Regards
Steve
<marko....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca6330e0-af58-4454...@googlegroups.com...
marko....@gmail.com
Jul 28, 2014, 5:15:36 PM7/28/14
to
On Saturday, 26 July 2014 13:54:29 UTC+1, Steve wrote:
> I've also struggled with various aspects of "proper" technique and the
> problem with trying to find what's "right" often leads to even more
> confusion as you'll find contradictory opinions at even the highest levels
> of the sport. So, what I'm slowly coming to terms with is that sometimes the
> answer given two recommended variations of technique is to simply go for the
> one that's best for YOU. It's too easy to get too entrenched in doctrine and
> as long as your basic grasp of the required technique is right, how you do
> it will be down to your own comfort or preference.
>
> Try both of the types of finish you've posted links too and see what works
> best for you.
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Steve
I think this is good advice. Over the last week I've continued to play around with different styles of finish I've seen and have found something that seems to work for me:
> I've also struggled with various aspects of "proper" technique and the
> problem with trying to find what's "right" often leads to even more
> confusion as you'll find contradictory opinions at even the highest levels
> of the sport. So, what I'm slowly coming to terms with is that sometimes the
> answer given two recommended variations of technique is to simply go for the
> one that's best for YOU. It's too easy to get too entrenched in doctrine and
> as long as your basic grasp of the required technique is right, how you do
> it will be down to your own comfort or preference.
>
> Try both of the types of finish you've posted links too and see what works
> best for you.
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Steve
I concrete on pulling in uninterrupted all the way through the extraction with no deliberate thought to feathering or tapping down. This means the blades are still moving into the stern and have some pressure on as they are coming out; popping/flicking out solidly as they unload without throwing up water. Provided I don't hang on to the stroke too long or wash out the blades come out with no interruption to the boat run and it is pretty foolproof requiring less finesse than trying to ease off pressure to gently extract at the exact speed of the water.
It looks something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAG7GCh4aE, you can see her blades continuing to move towards the stern with pressure on as they are coming out.
2potsin...@gmail.com
Jul 28, 2014, 7:05:27 PM7/28/14
to
On Monday, July 28, 2014 5:15:36 PM UTC-4, marko....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think this is good advice. Over the last week I've continued to play around with different styles of finish I've seen and have found something that seems to work for me:
>
> I concrete on pulling in uninterrupted all the way through the extraction with no deliberate thought to feathering or tapping down. This means the blades are still moving into the stern and have some pressure on as they are coming out; popping/flicking out solidly as they unload without throwing up water. Provided I don't hang on to the stroke too long or wash out the blades come out with no interruption to the boat run and it is pretty foolproof requiring less finesse than trying to ease off pressure to gently extract at the exact speed of the water.
>
> It looks something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAG7GCh4aE, you can see her blades continuing to move towards the stern with pressure on as they are coming out.
That's an interesting video clip. Several questions quickly come to mind as I watch and contemplate how I might adapt any of it to my situation. Can anybody hazard a guess as to rigging and the young lady's body dimensions? Specifically, I see a very nice catch position with body leaning forward and arms extended out wide for a nice catch angle. A nice drive. And then a finish with the hands ending well apart for a nice finish angle. However, for the last part of the arc as she finishes, she is able to bring her hands all the way through and even with her torso but yet her hands (thumbs) never touch her body on the way past. Later in the video we see she also has a rather extreme lay-back at the finish, but I don't think the reason she is able to freely swing her hands all the way through that far while I cannot is not just because she has the svelte waist of an elite young female athlete compared to my pot-bellied old man.
>
> I think this is good advice. Over the last week I've continued to play around with different styles of finish I've seen and have found something that seems to work for me:
>
> I concrete on pulling in uninterrupted all the way through the extraction with no deliberate thought to feathering or tapping down. This means the blades are still moving into the stern and have some pressure on as they are coming out; popping/flicking out solidly as they unload without throwing up water. Provided I don't hang on to the stroke too long or wash out the blades come out with no interruption to the boat run and it is pretty foolproof requiring less finesse than trying to ease off pressure to gently extract at the exact speed of the water.
>
> It looks something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAG7GCh4aE, you can see her blades continuing to move towards the stern with pressure on as they are coming out.
Looking at some of the other videos of various world class Oly rowers that have been discussed here on RSR, I don't remember any of them finishing with hands that wide or that far into the bow. Their finishes all seem to end barely in front of their bodies with thumbs close to their ribs. Could it be this lady is able to make the extraction seem so easy and gentle because she has a deeper finish angle made possible by extraordinary long body dimensions together with optimal rigging adjustments?
Dick White in VA, USA
rowing entirely in my head for the time being while awaiting sharp point of a back surgeon's knife
marko....@gmail.com
Jul 29, 2014, 3:51:46 PM7/29/14
to
Carl
Jul 29, 2014, 6:01:45 PM7/29/14
to
On 29/07/2014 20:51, marko....@gmail.com wrote:
>> Looking at some of the other videos of various world class Oly rowers that have been discussed here on RSR, I don't remember any of them finishing with hands that wide or that far into the bow. Their finishes all seem to end barely in front of their bodies with thumbs close to their ribs. Could it be this lady is able to make the extraction seem so easy and gentle because she has a deeper finish angle made possible by extraordinary long body dimensions together with optimal rigging adjustments?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Dick White in VA, USA
>> >
>> >rowing entirely in my head for the time being while awaiting sharp point of a back surgeon's knife
>
> Yes that is one aspect I haven't wished to copy. As long as she keeps some pressure on and connection to the footplate I guess it probably isn't really a problem. It would be interesting if there were some high ratings in the video.
I would suggest that the only valid test of the worth of her hand
>> Looking at some of the other videos of various world class Oly rowers that have been discussed here on RSR, I don't remember any of them finishing with hands that wide or that far into the bow. Their finishes all seem to end barely in front of their bodies with thumbs close to their ribs. Could it be this lady is able to make the extraction seem so easy and gentle because she has a deeper finish angle made possible by extraordinary long body dimensions together with optimal rigging adjustments?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Dick White in VA, USA
>> >
>> >rowing entirely in my head for the time being while awaiting sharp point of a back surgeon's knife
>
> Yes that is one aspect I haven't wished to copy. As long as she keeps some pressure on and connection to the footplate I guess it probably isn't really a problem. It would be interesting if there were some high ratings in the video.
separation near the finish is whether or not she is still pulling. For
pulling that is _not_ a weak position, & probably it's both stronger &
safer than with hands obstructed by the body.
If in doubt, study Peter-Michael Kolbe's finishes. But in any case it's
not so different a position from that you might adopt when breaking a
stick across your front or ripping part some fabric. And in that latter
sense, note that at the finish the draw, if you are not to pull your
buttons away from the pins, is directed outwards at about 45 degrees to
the axis of the boat.
Further: with the hands moving as indicated, away at a significant angle
from the boat's axis, it take relatively little extra layback to make
all the difference between having to stop the draw in front of the body
& being able to draw past the ribs.
grahamca...@gmail.com
Jun 27, 2019, 12:10:03 AM6/27/19
to
Rig the boat so you have 125mm average between gate base and seat. When the rising spoon reaches the surface start feathering. Continue pulling. The feathered spoon should reach the surface when your arms reach your chest. Feathering drives the boat. Elbows out so 90' between forearms.I also suggest you finish arms and legs TOGETHER. Legs rebound - not held down. Hands quickly move to clear the knees. Rate 26 plus always. 2 breaths per stroke - out at catch and release. Use a mirror attached to a hat to steer. Back relaxed and bent always.
Have fun.
Have fun.
carl
Jul 2, 2019, 7:15:32 AM7/2/19
to
Might I refer the OP, if still with us, to some of our ingrown fictions?
1. A "hole" behind the blade confirms only a loss of propulsive
efficiency - the low-pressure (back) face of the blade has unnecessarily
disconnected from the water & it thus no longer feels the "tension"
(reduced pressure) between water & blade which is a big part of the
water's resistance to loss-making blade slip.
2. You don't need to extract square. A part-feathered blade extracts
cleanly, efficiently, easily & continues doing useful work during
extraction.
3. You don't need a "tap-down". A square-blade vertical tap-down with
the hands must result in the blade uselessly scraping the water. But it
leads coaches to try to justify having a hole in the water behind the
blade - so they're excusing an unnecessary & undesirable feature as
supposedly facilitating a disadvantageous & unproductive technique.
4. The blades should move as little as possible "through the water" as
any relative motion is also called blade slip. Wheel-spin & burning
rubber would be the analogy in motoring. You minimise blade slip by
properly covering the blades.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
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