Lightweights break world record(s)!
Bowball
the lightweight men's ergs. That would be newcomer Erich Smith, and
relative newcomer Conal Groom. These guys should give Spracklen their
secret, we'd be a shoo in for the gold in Atlanta. Better yet, maybe they
should be rowing out here WITH Spracklen, I mean, they DID beat our
heavyweight erg king Tom Bohrer by what, 20 SECONDS?!!! And nobody out
here is even close to him. That Ohio training program must have
something. And Potomac for that matter. Amazing how fast one can go when
one trains on one's own!
If this note sounds a little sarcastic, then good. I just have to ask,
what were these guys thinking? No one would notice? There are over 20
guys out here in SD, more in Phila and who knows where else, training
their butts off every day, three times a day or more, and someone comes
along and throws these "scores" in our faces. It's absurd, and offensive.
And to top it off, they BOTH turned down rowing in the L4- at the
Olympics!! Are their options that open? Teti practically gave them each
a seat in the 4-, and they said no. Hmmm. Now I'm sure I'm not the only
one who thinks this whole thing is suspicious. I guess I'm the only one
immature (or offended) enough to say something about it. And I can't
speak for other lightweights...
So guys, keep up the good work!
Sean
JohnAtl
As one of those lightweights training 3x a day for the trials this April,
I can fill you in on part of the erg news you reacted so strongly to.
Conal Groom's erg scores are most definitely for real. (I cannot speak for
Erich Smith, having never met/seen him.) I have seen Conal pull a 6K in
~19:11 or so, be disappointed with it, and come back the next day and
break 19:00. (FYI, I have not seen his most recent score, but I am
assuming that is also sub-19:00. We had this discussion about Conal last
winter, too. ;-)
I know nothing about any talks he and Teti had, but my
understanding--through gossip alone--was that Conal was trying for the
double scull with his brother Sean. That would explain his lack of
interest in the 4-.
So curb your sarcasm (at least in Conal's case). It is nearly
unbelievable, but it is true.
Keep going fast,
John Roberts
joh...@aol.com
jo...@theatlantic.com
GREGORY BENNING
Sprints, to row in the Mens' Open event.
astaria.pond.com 5555
>
> Actually, I'm sure there will be some sort of excuse for not showing up
>at the CRASH-B's. Oh no, I have incompletes in some classes and can't
>make it. Ooops, I suddenly got injured. Seems whenever there is a large
>group around to see the results, they never happen.
What a pathetic, petty, venomous post.
I rowed with Conal Groom in college, he is the real deal.
-Empacher
Wobody
Karen Swider
ltw. 2000m erg record with a time of 5:52. It was a
really amazing sight to see, I must admit. To add further
to his achievement, it was his 4th workout of that day
(he says he rows the erg better when he is relaxed from
sculling a lot).
I did not see him row his latest 6000m erg - but
did see him warming up for it. Incidentally, there were
other people in the room - I am sure that we can produce
a witness for you.
Conal has been training the 2x with his brother Sean which
is why he may have turned down the invitation to the camp.
He has also had to stay in D.C. until XMas to finish his
degree at Georgetown.
Karen Swider
GREGORY BENNING
>In article <4cu784$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, wob...@aol.com (Wobody) wrote:
>>
>
> I rowed with Conal Groom in college, he is the real deal.
>
>
>-Empacher
No really,,,, you misunderstand "Empacher". Get these guys to Boston &
enter them in the Mens' Open.
With their 6K times, I'm sure they can land complimentary airfare from
CRASH-B by winning one of the regional 2K qualifying races.
Karen Swider
> ltw. 2000m erg record with a time of 5:52.
I stand corrected: Conal's erg score was 5:58
Mljohansen
compelled to answer any of the wild posting I have read. This, however,
is another story. Anyone who has been involved in the collegiate or
international rowing world for the past 4 years has been aware of Conal's
accomplishments on the erg. His ability to pull stunning times is
legendary and should be recognized as such instead of criticized.
I have coached lightweight rowing at Potomac Boat Club since 1991 and
while my direct coaching of Conal has been limited, I know him to be of
excellant charactor and dedicated to the purity of our sport.
If this man pulled a world best in a room with no witnesses I would
believe the time. Stop looking for fault and applaud his accomplishement.
PETER N PN BULATOVIC
good but not world record breaking 2k. This is because the physiology
involved is not exactly the same for a workouts with such different durations
i.e. 6k approx 20min & 2k approx 6min. I believe this fellow who rows a fast
6k is able to train at a high percentage of his aerobic threshold but unless
he also has very good development of his power the CRASHB's being a 2k race
would not be a terribly accurate assessment of this rower's apparent
exceptional ability to row a very fast 6k.
Michael Reed
astaria.pond.com 5555 <Empa...@astaria.pond.com> wrote:
>In article <4cu784$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, wob...@aol.com (Wobody) wrote:
>>
>> Actually, I'm sure there will be some sort of excuse for not showing up
>>at the CRASH-B's. Oh no, I have incompletes in some classes and can't
>>make it. Ooops, I suddenly got injured. Seems whenever there is a large
>>group around to see the results, they never happen.
>
>
> What a pathetic, petty, venomous post.
>
> I rowed with Conal Groom in college, he is the real deal.
>
>
>-Empacher
Yes, well, despite the fact that you guys rowed together, the scores
those guys sent in *demand* verification.
"Verification" means, in case we're not clear, is that the test is
taken on an ergometer _verified_ to be unbiased, with unbiased
personnel watching. Some might even say "with a blood/urine sample
afterward", though I wouldn't think it relevant given the scores we're
talking about.
I don't think anyone's calling into doubt the fact that some of us
have _seen_ one of the "parties in question" do a phenomenal erg
test. We know that's true. The question is: "was it bullshit?". There
have been rumors (just that...) saying that one of the parties in
question tests well on his own erg, but at a camp tested on a random
erg and got an average score.
If these scores were just good, no one would care. But if _I_ sent in
6k scores 30 seconds faster than the top athletes in the world, when
before no one had ever heard of me, well I shouldn't be suprised if
I'm asked for verification.
A few months ago someone brought up a similar question: Although
C. Groom had an _unbelievable_ erg score, maybe he was just not ready
for the World Championships in a sculling boat since he had performed
poorly in then-recent sculling races. Amusingly, someone (was it you
"Empxcher"?) said "Well, I rowed with Mr. Groom at George Mason [*1]
University, and he beat the Varsity stroke in a seat race when he was
a Sophomore", or something VERY similar.
It has not been shown that beating the varsity stroke at GMU
correlates well with World Championship (or any other) performance.
Similarly, it's hilarious that you, "Empxcher", should offer as proof
of Groom's ability the fact that _you_ rowed with him. If these guys
are the "real deal" let them prove it in unbiased, open competition,
rather than by private erg tests and verification by friend's saying
"oh yeah, they row with ME!".
'Till then, I (and I expect other reasonable people) will discount
anyone's scores that come in more than a few standard deviations
faster than the best in the world, particularly in they've never been
heard of before. I fully believe such scores are possible by rowers,
light or heavy, but I want to be sure the scores come from accurate
tests. I'm sure the fastest in the world (the LW's mentioned above or
otherwise) completely understand and appreciate my position: otherwise
their record would only last until some 10-year-old calls USRowing and
says "I just pulled a 4:00 2k!".
Michael
NYAC Rowing
*1 - Not meant to reflect badly on GMU, well know to be an excellent
up-and-coming program. Just factually not one of the traditional
national-team generators.
astaria.pond.com 5555
GREGORY BENNING <gben...@mci.newscorp.com> wrote:
>Empa...@astaria.pond.com (astaria.pond.com 5555) wrote:
>>In article <4cu784$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, wob...@aol.com (Wobody)
wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, I'm sure there will be some sort of excuse for not showing up
>>>at the CRASH-B's. Oh no, I have incompletes in some classes and can't
>>>make it. Ooops, I suddenly got injured. Seems whenever there is a large
>>>group around to see the results, they never happen.
>>
>>
>> What a pathetic, petty, venomous post.
>>
>> I rowed with Conal Groom in college, he is the real deal.
>>
>>
>>-Empacher
>
>
>enter them in the Mens' Open.
>
>With their 6K times, I'm sure they can land complimentary airfare from
>CRASH-B by winning one of the regional 2K qualifying races.
>
Who would want to go to a hell hole like Boston, MA in February
just to do an erg piece? Boggle. An entire weekend wasted for a single
erg piece? Not terribly practical.
Trevor Chambers
"Put an ergo on the water and it sinks"
A good ergo score is one thing, but it's how fast you move the boat
that counts. Witness Matthias Sjyonowsky (ok, so I can't spell), the
world record holder on the ergo...scary scores, but he's never made
it into the German national squad in any boat.
Trev
Sudbury RC
Marc Gwadz
The point is, because these tests haven't been done in a public forum,
on a random erg, the
scores havce remained suspect. One would think that Conal would jump at the
chance to show how good he is. As for people being aware of Conal's
accomplishments, I'd say that's overstating the case. The truth
is, there is a great deal of skepticism surrounding the scores,
whether they are valid or not.
If someone shows up at CRASH-Bs or a national team camp and pulls these numbers,
then the issue will be settled. Until then, skepticism should
be expected.
marc gwadz
Ihan Kim
: Who would want to go to a hell hole like Boston, MA in February
: just to do an erg piece? Boggle. An entire weekend wasted for a single
: erg piece? Not terribly practical.
If it will get people to believe that he's 'for real', I'd say it's worth it.
I'm good friends with one of his housemates and have heard that he's
pulling those times, and from the sound of it, he's probably not peaked
in terms of erg times yet, not by a long shot.
ihan kim
amherst college ra
PeterD2562
times, why don't you all hop on an erg next to some of them and go for a
nice 6k row with them, then we will see what you say. I'm not saying that
the scores are correct or false I am just saying don't talk shit unless
you can back it up.
Me being a jr. rower took a lot of crap for being a jr. I particapated in
a Development camp for college rowers at the LWRC boat house. when all of
the college guys heard my erg scores they didn't believe that I could pull
the times. This was before the fact that I told them I was a Lwt. Anyway
by the end of the camp I had earned my way into the top lwt. 4. We
competed at ARC, winning the Int. Lwt. 4+, and at Canadian Henley, winning
the Int. Lwt. 4- getting second in the Int. Lwt 4+ and winning the Sr.
Lwt. 4+ so I guess I showed any of the college guy that talked shit I
could move a boat. So don't think that lwt. or jr. or any other category
means that they are automatically slower than the Op. Men.
Best of Luck to Conal and Erich, go out and give them hell.
And to all the guys who don't believe I hope they beat the hell out of
anyone who they seat race.
Pete Davidson
PS No offense to the National Team Rowers, Heavyweights in general, or any
of the college rowers around the country....
Karen Swider
Do you realise that by posting these letters questioning Conal's
veracity, that you are guilty of character assasination?
You are calling someone who is NOT public figure a liar and
a cheat. You can be sued for libel in the case that these accusations
are indeed proven incorrect.
Could we please stop these name-calling and accusation-flinging
posts on this newsgroup?? The rowing world is too small for this
to go on.
Karen Swider
Sullys Maze
Frankly, this topic is too small for all this excitement. I've seen
no evidence of anyone being called a liar, and no reason for high
strung youthful exhuberance to overexert itself for such a
non-issue.
There's no problem with someone making claims of scores, or backing
it by claims of witnesses, etc. I also see no problem with someone
doubting it and suggesting that perhaps that possible record holder
show up at one of the convenient popular CrashB venues...
Holy cow, what would you expect?
After all, this 43 year old just rowed a 5:55 2000m in my wherry out
on my local lake. My daughter timed me.
Mike
astaria.pond.com 5555
mg...@inibara.cc.columbia.edu (Marc Gwadz) wrote:
>If someone shows up at CRASH-Bs or a national team camp and pulls these
numbers,
>then the issue will be settled. Until then, skepticism should
>be expected.
>
>marc gwadz
Laff. You're just a pathetic, jealous asshole. He was in the US lightweight
quad at last years worlds. Do you think he's never pulled an erg at a
national team camp?
-Michael Hartman
JMoag
I invite anyone who disbelieves Conal's scores to join the PBC group for
the next scheduled national team testing. You can watch Conal test. Then
you can get on the same erg, test for youself, and see if it's rigged.
Contact me by email and I'll give you the date and directions to the
boathouse.
Don't expect Conal (or Erich, for that matter) to interupt his training
schedule to dispell_your_unfounded criticism. Come be your own witness,
but until then keep your doubts to yourself.
The prevailing sentiment down here in DC is that taking time out for a
trip to CRASH-Bs is counterproductive in the long run. Far better to stay
home, practice to your heart's content on the water, and just do the erg
tests when they are scheduled. This is the philosophy Conal Groom lives
by, and it's the reason I doubt he will go to Boston in February.
It will greatly distress all the erg-heads out there to know that Conal
avoids the erg whenever possible. He only sits down on an erg when it's
time to test, or when extreme circumstances like a deep freeze or a
hurricane force him inside.
Fran Reininger is right -- you put an erg on the water and it sinks.
That's why Conal trains on the water. (As everyone should, but that's a
different thread . . . )
Jeffrey Moag
P.S. Someone made a reference to the need for blood and urine tests. Conal
was urine tested with the rest of the U.S. team before the World
Championships last year, and is subject to random testing on 24-hours
notice. He's clean.
Michael Reed
I held off for as long as I could, but this is just too much...
I ignored the posts that said "Well, Conal is an upstanding guy, so
his word is good enough for me!", despite the fact that I had invested
some energy in trying to show that if we allow world records to be
broken and accepted without verification, then there will be unfair
treatment of others. ("Well Conal's a _friend_ of mine! This guy Mr. X
from the south pole w/ a 4:00 2k -- HE needs to verified...duh...")
I also ignored moronic high-school posts about "Well, if you can't
pull a sub-6:00 erg, you have no right to question his!! You should
have seen ME when I beat all these COLLEGE GUYS blah blah blah...",
since of course it is not necessary to be faster/stronger/etc. than
someone to SUGGEST that world records be VERIFIED.
But a new level has been reached. A posting this ridiculous really
_demands_ a response.
Before I proceed, let me ask one question to the r.s.r. membership (just
ask yourself quietly, no need to respond, just THINK):
Exactly WHAT has happened to people's reasoning processes? Has
everyone just decided that logical thought is unecessary?
In article <4d3ecg$o...@ra.nrl.navy.mil>,
Karen Swider <swi...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:
>Have you no ethics?
If you had read my previous post, you'd see that it is all about
ethics, and preserving fairness by having EVERYONE treated the same
way. (Instead of some people getting by on the assurances of their
friends/admirers)
>
>Do you realise that by posting these letters questioning Conal's
>veracity, that you are guilty of character assasination?
This statement is just ridiculous. Those who have even the slightest
understanding of rhetoric know there is a _huge_ difference between
saying "record-breaking scores (or even a specific score) should be
subject to verification in an unbiased test" and character
assasination.
Let me reduce it to a case that I hope will be clear to you: If I go
around saying the moon is made of green cheese, and then you say "no
it's not", does _that_ amount to what you call "character
assasination"? I hope you are getting my point.
>You are calling someone who is NOT public figure a liar and
>a cheat. You can be sued for libel in the case that these accusations
>are indeed proven incorrect.
>
You are wrong in both sentences. I am not doing "A", and I cannot be
sued for "B".
>Could we please stop these name-calling and accusation-flinging
>posts on this newsgroup??
You mean right after you accuse me of "character assasination", lack
of ethics, and libel? OK, let's stop...
>The rowing world is too small for this
>to go on.
>
>Karen Swider
>
>
Thoroughly nauseated,
Michael
Geez...and I _believe_ the scores are possible!
Sullys Maze
mob...@utkvx.utk.edu (Meredith Morris-Babb) writes:
>In Article <4d4sap$l...@morrow.stanford.edu>, Su...@forsythe.stanford.edu
>(Sullys Maze) wrote:
>>
>>After all, this 43 year old just rowed a 5:55 2000m in my wherry out
>>on my local lake. My daughter timed me.
>>
>>Mike
>
Your times will blaze if you simply ask her to read your watch.
:^)
Mike
Meredith Morris-Babb
(Sullys Maze) wrote:
>
>After all, this 43 year old just rowed a 5:55 2000m in my wherry out
>on my local lake. My daughter timed me.
>
>Mike
Whoa! Sign that man up!! Hey, Mike, may I borrow your daughter's watch??
mobabbb
>
Jason Thrasher
base can outperform anyone in the endurance events, but not fair so well in the power
events. 2000m is just long enough that you need to settle and not go anerobic, but
only barely. In a 6000, you can't go anerobic without dieing... at least most
mortals can't. Once into the AT and it's all over. This has allways happened to me
and everyone that I know.
With regard to Conal and the other person: More power to them! I wish I could pull a
time like that. I would absolutely jump at a chance to watch it happen or speek with
them about what their workouts are like.
-Jason
--
Jason Thrasher
=============
Lightweight
=============
Novice Men's Coach
West Potomac HS Crew
=============
Women's Coach
Virginia Tech Rowing Club
http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/vtcrew/
Jason Thrasher
Keith Thomas
>
>Well, what can I say? Hats off to the reigning world record holders in
>the lightweight men's ergs. That would be newcomer Erich Smith, and
>relative newcomer Conal Groom. These guys should give Spracklen their
>secret, we'd be a shoo in for the gold in Atlanta. Better yet, maybe they
>should be rowing out here WITH Spracklen, I mean, they DID beat our
>heavyweight erg king Tom Bohrer by what, 20 SECONDS?!!!
What were their times?
And over what "distance"?
Keith, Canberra, Australia
Bowball
recent sculling speed orders in August GA, one of the parties is question
(I won't mention names, but his initials are CG) was able to pull no
better time on a 2k erg test than 6:17. That's 6:17. Not 5:52, or 5:58,
or 18:28. A little quick math tells me that's holding 1:34 splits for
2000m. Yet he claims, as do his supporters, that he was able to maintain
a 1:32 pace for 6000m?!! The real deal, huh? I don't care what anyone
says about AT physiology, or aerobic vs. anaerobic, not even matching 6k
pace on a 2k piece really leaves one to wonder: what went wrong? By
the way, evidently the excuse _this time_ was that he's pulled a calf
muscle. Hmm, I guess that could account for 20 seconds in a 2000m piece!
As far as I'm concerned, he has been unable to support his claims in an
unbiased venue. Oh, and he claims that he's better on, or more to, the
model B erg....
Regarding our Ohio prodigy, latest word is that he wasn't given a chance
to row and prove himself at the lightweight camp in Princeton this winter,
while on break from school. Apparently he had to stay on the erg the
entire time he was there. Couldn't even row in the tanks! Well, this
came as a surprise to Mike Teti (who is coaching the group in Princeton,
for those who don't know), because according to Mike, Erich Smith was
invited to attend but never showed up!
Now I ask, if this were a court of law (which, thank God, it's not), how
would the jury find the defendants? (not including the jury in the OJ
case!)
As always, keep up the good work, guys!
Sean
MantaW
Specifically, the actual sound of a rhombus happening?
Marc P. Duby
> Laff. You're just a pathetic, jealous asshole. He was in the US lightweight
>quad at last years worlds. Do you think he's never pulled an erg at a
>national team camp?
>-Michael Hartman
Just for everybody's information, there was a recent Speed Order in
Augusta, Georgia supervised by the national team sculling coach Igor
Grinko. An erg test (500m, then 2000m a 1/2 hour later) was taken on
Friday January 5th to kick off the festivities.
Conal's scores were (without the decimal):
500m: 1:25
2000m: 6:17
Here are some numbers for the mathematically challenged:
18:28 divided by 3 is 6:09.3 (6k by 3 is 2k)
6:17 is greater than 6:09.3
6:17 is greater than 5:58
Draw your own conclusions,
Marc Duby
PS: The winning lightweight time were 1:25/6:12. The top heavyweights
were in the 1:10s/5:50s.
Marc Gwadz
> Laff. You're just a pathetic, jealous asshole. He was in the US
>lightweight
>quad at last years worlds. Do you think he's never pulled an erg at a
>national team camp?
>-Michael Hartman>
"Empacher"
You are way out of line. I originally wasn't going to post this,
but I think this sort of netiquette is too far out of bounds to
ignore.It's sad that so much of the net is overrun with
the puerile ravings of your ilk. Posts such as yours certainly
strain the patience of those of us who would like to be see
reason and reasonableness prevail on rsr (and in life in general).
No doubt this is a vain dream. Nevertheless, where do you get off
with a retort like that? I don't imagine you deal with
disagreements in everyday life in such a manner- or do i give you too much
credit? Would you say this to my face? So why do it on a newsgroup?
as for your post:
a) i think you owe me an apology- public figurative prostration on the
net should suffice.
b)I know conal groom was in the 4x, but it doesn't say anything about
what his erg scores were. nobody else in that 4x claims a sub-6 erg.
neither is anything proved by the fact that you rowed in a pair with
him, or that he won the novice or intermediate single at the head of
the potomac. and, a cynic might say that he was in that 4x in
large part due to those erg scores, anyway!
c) as my nat. team friends tell it, he did pull so-so ergs at camps
and went to the 8 camp a few years ago and lost just about every seat
race, so there is a good deal of disbelief among nat. team members that
his scores are for real. if there wasn't, this thread would have never
started!!!!
d) if you bothered to read my post,you would see that i never claimed
that the scores aren't real, only that they need to be done in a public
forum to be widely believed. this is the way it works in most sports,
why not rowing? i think that it's ridiculous that USrowing has
distributed funding based on unsubstantiated submitted erg scores.
the rumor is that the scores are always witnessed but done on a suspect
erg. i don't know if this is a likely scenario or not. however, it is a
very simple objection to answer! furthermore, i only commented on the
existence of skepticism and did not try to offer proof that the scores
are at all fault. perhaps such subtlety eludes you. it may be
a time-honored practice to berate the messenger, but it really
doesn't address the issue at all.
e) if conal groom wants to have public recognition of his scores (as he
apparently does since he submits them), then he should expect scutiny.
he may be pushing the standard for fitness to a level that hasn't been
seen before in rowing, but the simple fact is that there is not general
acceptance of this among those at the national team level. and, the fact
that he has failed to duplicate his efforts in controlled settings doesn't
do anything to bolster his claims. i stress disbelief among
fellow elite rowers, because i don't think whether conal can pull
a sub 6:00 2k has any effect on the lives of the typical rower-
but it matters a lot to those at or near the top.
the next time you read a post, why not take a moment to think about what
is really being said, and try not to fly off the handle. the 'net
provides wall of isolation, but you are still dealing with people.
i can't imagine why you would think such rudeness is tolerable.
marc gwadz
MantaW
results? Where's Ted, when you need him, to sort these things out? I
think they should be concerned with more important things: what is the
sound of a "Rhombus happening?"
Karen Swider
> >veracity, that you are guilty of character assasination?
> >a cheat. You can be sued for libel in the case that these accusations
> >are indeed proven incorrect.
> >
> >to go on.
>
> no evidence of anyone being called a liar, and no reason for high
> strung youthful exhuberance to overexert itself for such a
> non-issue.
>
> There's no problem with someone making claims of scores, or backing
> it by claims of witnesses, etc. I also see no problem with someone
> doubting it and suggesting that perhaps that possible record holder
> show up at one of the convenient popular CrashB venues...
>
> Holy cow, what would you expect?
>
> on my local lake. My daughter timed me.
>
> Mike
You missed the point...
How would you feel if you logged into r.s.r. one day just
to find that your coaching (for instance) was a hot topic
of discussion?
Please see my letter below regarding libel.
Karen Swider
Empacher
bow...@aol.com (Bowball) wrote:
>OK, here's some more fuel for the fire. It is a _fact_ that at the most
>recent sculling speed orders in August GA, one of the parties is question
>(I won't mention names, but his initials are CG) was able to pull no
>better time on a 2k erg test than 6:17. That's 6:17. Not 5:52, or 5:58,
>or 18:28. A little quick math tells me that's holding 1:34 splits for
>2000m. Yet he claims, as do his supporters, that he was able to maintain
>a 1:32 pace for 6000m?!! The real deal, huh? I don't care what anyone
>says about AT physiology, or aerobic vs. anaerobic, not even matching 6k
>pace on a 2k piece really leaves one to wonder: what went wrong? By
>the way, evidently the excuse _this time_ was that he's pulled a calf
>muscle. Hmm, I guess that could account for 20 seconds in a 2000m piece!
>As far as I'm concerned, he has been unable to support his claims in an
>unbiased venue. Oh, and he claims that he's better on, or more to, the
>model B erg....
>
Sean, you're yet another pathetic, jealous useless waste of space.
First of all *HE* was not the one on the newsgroup posting his scores.
He can't even afford internet access because his brother and he devote
their entire friggin lives to the sport. Someone else posted the scores.
Second of all, he has nothing to gain from claiming bogus scores. He
knows damn well erg scores aren't going to take him to the Olympics, in
boat performance will. He was in the lightweight quad at the last worlds,
so obviously he can put it on the water as well.
Third, does he make any money or become famous and get invited to be
on David Letterman for great erg scores? No. So why are people so obsessed
with the veracity of the claims? Because they are jealous and feel inferior
by getting their ass kicked. Especially when they get their ass kicked by
someone who weighs 20-50 pounds less than they do.
-Michael Hartman
p.s. All the references to the law are ridiculous and insulting to someone
currently in law school. No wonder lawyers make so much money when there
are so many idiots tossing around the law as if they know something
about it, and end up getting themselves in a bind.
George D. Kirschbaum Jr.
> As far as I'm concerned, he has been unable to support his claims in an
> unbiased venue. Oh, and he claims that he's better on, or more to, the
> Sean
Well, by your phrasing, and the way you wrote the rest of your
post (which I snipped) you are essentially calling a lot of people liars.
An "unbiased venue?" What reason could the rowers at PBC have for creating
tall tales? Anyone that knows the club, and the scullers at the club, know
these people bust their butts and put their money where their mouth is;
on an erg or on the water. They are not the sort to promote bu**sh*t claims,
friend or no friend. Many a pre-elite and National Team member has
trained at PBC. . . No one associated with PBC is going to lesson those
achievements with rumor.
I would suggest that people really be carefull how they express
their opinions. Your words may assassinate an honest person's character.
Furthermore, if you don't believe, then don't believe- your choice.
Lastly, I agree with another poster: If you so strongly disbelieve the
scores, go and test with Conal and see for your self.
George D. Kirschbaum Jr.
Head Coach, Gonzaga College HS.
PBC Coxswain, Sweep Women
DISCLAIMER: I am not a close friend of Conal's, just a supporter of
integrity, honesty, and rowing.
PETER N PN BULATOVIC
about one athletes performance on the ergometer. Would somebody like to
explain how does someone elses performance on this machine affect the
training of a focussed well trained athlete. After all I believe it is
important for the individual rower to have an idea of what they can do, and
try then try to improve themselves, perhaps by attempting to row a pb every
ER test, or whatever, the idea of goal setting is a personalized thing.
If there is a fellow out there who pulls an exciting erg score this is very
nice for him, but it does not make me slower, if anything it only has
potential to make me faster in that it can serve to push me to extend my
conceptual limits (I guess I answered the first part of my question). I am
not one who is satisfied with what I pulled today or yesterday, I always try
to do a little bit more. Perhaps these persons who are posting childish
messages are really insecure in their own abilities when they hear about
anothers successes. This is not positive thinking. If you here someone
pulled a great score you should say to yourself: "I can pull close to
this"/"One day I will try to beat this"/whatever. Believe me, if you take
such an approach with your sport (training & racing inclusive), rowing
will be much more fun and exciting! for you. There is no need for such
negative thinking and posting of messages whether or not something is true.
This type of attitude is counter productive, I guarantee this!.
ENienaber
Joy, Joy, Joy...
Erik
George D. Kirschbaum Jr.
> George,
> WE are not saying we don't believe him, in fact just the opposite. We
> invite these two world record holders to come out here and take the tests
> side by side with the National heavy squad. If they can do that on the
> erg, then there must be something they can do on the water to make our
> team faster.
>
> Remember, nobody is being called a liar, but if somebody is going to
> submit a score like that, then they should be willing to back it up by
> showing the rest of the world that they can do it while others watch.
Point taken, and understood. I think you are right, if they can
do what they say they did then they should be out there making the boats
go faster, so we can kick in Atlanta. (Maybe a money and time question there)
I think what I was trying to say was that they shouldn't have to
fly hither and yon just to prove an erg score when a whole room of
honest, hard working, rowers saw them do it. As you know, I'm sure, PBC
is not a club that just popped up in someones boat house. It has had a
lot of national level rowers and coaches work out of there, and still does.
The people there are as good as any for verifying what is real and is
not; they are not going to let someone slide- especially the PBC
competitive scullers.
I think the true bottom line is that all this hoopla is silly.
When the opening day ceremonies In Atlanta commence, the people who can
walk the walk will be there, no matter who they are, where they came
from, or what they said they did. Good luck to one and all!
George
JMoag
libel, he would win.
Luckily, niether Conal nor any of the growing group of people who have
been publicly defamed in this newsgroup has stooped so low as to file a
lawsuit. I merely state this fact to illustrate a point.This newsgroup is
a public forum. It is not the place to make unsubstantiated charges.
I know a bit about libel because I'm an investigative reporter, and I
write about sleezebags with some regularity. I've twice been threatened
with libel suits which were later dropped based on the "If it's true it
ain't libel" rule. I therefore know when the "If it ain't true it *is*
libel" corollary applies. Just to be sure, I dug out my trusty Associated
Press Stylebook and Libel Manual, which states on page 289:
"Actions for civil libel result mainly from news stories that allege
crime, fraud, dishonesty, immoral or dishonorable conduct, or stories that
defame the subject professionally, causing financial loss either
personally or to a business.
Congratulations, Sean. You hit five out of six. And your post was far
classier than many of those it spawned, on both sides of the argument.
The libel manual continues: "There is only one complete and unconditional
defense to a civil action libel: that the facts stated are PROVABLY TRUE.
(Note well that word, PROVABLY.)"
Let me tell you what would happen if this went to court. The defense would
call everyone who saw Conal row that piece. They would swear under oath
that they saw Conal pull that score with their own eyes. Then the defense
would rest.
Now Sean would stand up and testify that Conal's latest score is bogus
because it's faster than his, and he trains with a bunch of other big,
strong guys who didn't beat Conal's score either.
Care to guess how the jury would rule?
I write this in a light tone, but it is a very serious matter. When you
slander someone in the back bay of the boathouse, you're probably not
going to ruin his chances to to make a national squad, get sponsorship or
enjoy the respect his accomplishments demand. But when you make the same
charges to the entire rowing community through this newsgroup, you do all
of those things.
I'm not arguing that we should clamp down on free speech on rsr. I'm only
saying we should strive for a higher standard. Remember that what you say
here reflects upon you, your club and the rowing community as a whole.
Many of us pay for internet access by the minute, and we want to dash off
our $.02 and get off before the bill gets out of hand. That's fine when
you're asking for results, or a ride to a regatta. But when you're dealing
with someone's reputation, log off and take the time to compose a
thoughtful, accurate and fair commentary. Better yet, let it sit
overnight. If you still feel comfortable attaching your name to it the
next day, then post it. If not, breathe a big sigh of relief. You've just
avoided making an ass of yourself.
Jeffrey Moag
David Marks
>On 14 Jan 1996, Bowball wrote:
>
>> As far as I'm concerned, he has been unable to support his claims in an
>> unbiased venue. Oh, and he claims that he's better on, or more to, the
>
>> Sean
>
> Well, by your phrasing, and the way you wrote the rest of your
>post (which I snipped) you are essentially calling a lot of people liars.
I'm new to all of this, so perhaps I'm out of line; but I'm curious to find
out how this community sets standards. I mean, this post sounds crazy to me.
The above quote does not call anyone a liar, or assassinate anybody's
character, it merely asserts that unbiased verification, a standard in every
competitive endeavor in the world (practically), is lacking. Are there no
unbiased referees who oversee these meets?
>An "unbiased venue?" What reason could the rowers at PBC have for creating
>tall tales? Anyone that knows the club, and the scullers at the club, know
>these people bust their butts and put their money where their mouth is;
>on an erg or on the water. They are not the sort to promote bu**sh*t claims,
>friend or no friend. Many a pre-elite and National Team member has
>trained at PBC. . . No one associated with PBC is going to lesson those
>achievements with rumor.
But this is just silly... nobody takes the word of an unbiased tester in
any sport, or in academia, or anywhere. You have no idea what's on some-
body's mind, whether they're dishonest, slipshod in measurement, or
whether they have some ulterior motive. It is well-known in science that
people who measure things ("experimenters") have a propensity to see what
they want to see, hence the standard of double-blind tests even among
researchers of high repute. But what is so difficult about using a set of
unbiased officials from disinterested institutions as referees and testers.
Of course, the problem of standardizing or calibrating the ergs is one
that, as far as I know (which is *not* a lot) may be difficult to surmount.
> I would suggest that people really be carefull how they express
>their opinions. Your words may assassinate an honest person's character.
!!! Requiring an unbiased ref is hardly character assassination!
>Furthermore, if you don't believe, then don't believe- your choice.
>Lastly, I agree with another poster: If you so strongly disbelieve the
>scores, go and test with Conal and see for your self.
>
> George D. Kirschbaum Jr.
> Head Coach, Gonzaga College HS.
> PBC Coxswain, Sweep Women
>
>
>DISCLAIMER: I am not a close friend of Conal's, just a supporter of
>integrity, honesty, and rowing.
I think almost everybody supports these things. Believing that they
exist across the board is another matter, though. But anyway, as any
scientist can tell you, honesty does not guarantee accuracy.
______________________________________________________________________________
David M. Marks, Kennedy Development, Ltd., 600 West Hillsboro Blvd., Ste. 101,
Deerfield Beach, FL 33441. Tel.: 305/421-4564 Fax: 305/421-6733 Voicemail:
407/368-7623; 312/810-1840 in Chicago dma...@gate.net, d...@kennedyhomes.com
Bill Strahan
<snip>
see you all at the next international 6k regatta.
Bill Strahan
ol...@sunhilow.thegap.com
______________________________________
bulbous also tapered.........that's right!
Peter M Cipollone
>Let's get something straight: if Conal Groom decided to sue Sean Hall for
>libel, he would win.
[snip]
>"Actions for civil libel result mainly from news stories that allege
>crime, fraud, dishonesty, immoral or dishonorable conduct, or stories that
>defame the subject professionally, causing financial loss either
>personally or to a business.
>Congratulations, Sean. You hit five out of six. And your post was far
>classier than many of those it spawned, on both sides of the argument.
[snip]
>Jeffrey Moag
How have Sean's comments caused any financial damage, either
personally, or to Conal's business? [If he's training full-time, I
presume rowing is his business, for tax purposes.] If the guy's that
good, any coach who valued his resume would put him in the boat. As
for the libel charge, I ain't no lawyer, but the damages would be
quite difficult to prove, especially since we're all "amateurs." ;-)
If Conal did the score legitimately, why was his score in Augusta so
much slower? As a coxswain, I have watched many, many ergs by elite
rowers. I have seen rowers, when sick or injured, pull scores which
were only three to six seconds slower than their best scores. I have
never seen a guy, in full training, go more than six or seven seconds
worse than hisr best. I do not know the numbers, but through the
grapevine, I heard that Conal's score in Augusta was about 20 seconds
off his sub-six performance. Such variance in scores is, well, rare.
Peter Cipollone
PS I even saw a guy who was supposed to be sick pull a 5:48. That was
NUTTY.
Daniel Martin
>
> In article <4da8gh$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> bow...@aol.com (Bowball) wrote:
> >OK, here's some more fuel for the fire. It is a _fact_ that at the most
> >recent sculling speed orders in August GA, one of the parties is question
> >(I won't mention names, but his initials are CG) was able to pull no
> >better time on a 2k erg test than 6:17. That's 6:17. Not 5:52, or 5:58,
> >or 18:28. A little quick math tells me that's holding 1:34 splits for
> >2000m. Yet he claims, as do his supporters, that he was able to maintain
> >a 1:32 pace for 6000m?!! The real deal, huh? I don't care what anyone
> >says about AT physiology, or aerobic vs. anaerobic, not even matching 6k
> >pace on a 2k piece really leaves one to wonder: what went wrong? By
> >the way, evidently the excuse _this time_ was that he's pulled a calf
> >muscle. Hmm, I guess that could account for 20 seconds in a 2000m piece!
> >unbiased venue. Oh, and he claims that he's better on, or more to, the
Maybe because the B's at his club really need to be replaced. It is much harder to
pull 5:57 when you are on an erg that is compatible with the ones the rest of the athletes
use.
> >
>
> Sean, you're yet another pathetic, jealous useless waste of space.
>
Look in the mirror Hartman and repeat the last part of the above sentence to yourself.
I have to agree with Sean in this case. Sure there will be flunctuations in people erg
scores from month to month but 20 seconds is crazy. Lets just do a bit of math here,
5:57/2000m => pace of 1:29.2 = 492.9 watts
6:17/2000m => pace of 1:34.0 = 427.4 watts
That means that he uses his calf muscle to provide 65.5 watts of power. That's a loss of
13% of his power! I have been involved in rowing for over 10 years now and follow erg
score pretty closely. This is definitely out of the ordinary.
I didn't beleive the score when I seen it first, and now this stuff makes me doubt
even more. I don't care how much of a nice, honest guy he is, or how many people have
rowed with him before, power is power. You don't mysteriously just lose 13% of you power.
Working out my own deviation on erg tests I only get numbers between 1-3% and that's
including off season and sickness.
For now I have to doubt the score just on the evidence shown. I do believe it is possible,
however, but until it is done in an open forum it might as well have not been done at all.
I'd say the reason why CG doesn't go to the CRASH-Bs is that he is afraid that he not only
won't win the event, but won't be able to make the final. With a legit score of 6:17 he'd be
hard pressed.
I'd like to go on record as saying that by the time an American lightweight breaks 6:00 he'll
only be joining in the ranks with a pool of Canadians, Germans and Italians. Good luck guys,
keep them 18 minute/6ks and under 6min/2ks coming. They always make for some great small talk.
regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------
| email: dma...@bnr.ca | Opinions are mine all mine, but |
| Bell Northern Research | are subject to change without |
| Ottawa, Ontario | notice. |
---------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Reed
Well Peter, this _is_ true for the vast majority of athletes: The
fact that someone sends in a new world record makes no difference
to me, possibly you, and probably the majority of the rest of the
rec.sport.rowing readership.
I can assure you that a new WR on the erg does not affect the
vast majority of medalists at club nationals, Sprints, or whatever.
The people it DOES affect are the people at the top: those who make
the worlds/olympic boats, whose lives _depend_ on being at the
top. To them, people breaking records are a very big deal. You
can image what people's response over in the Track & Field group
would say if you said:
"My friend just broke the existing WR for his class by 15 seconds
in the 5k (run) (actually, percentage-wise much less of a difference
than is being disputed here). I _saw_ him do it!"
I can assure you the majority of the people would be more than a
little skeptical. The people at the top would just laugh.
Many people seem to think "Who cares? If it's a real record, great!
If not, what does it matter, since only USRA keeps the score." Well,
last year USRA chose funding for LW's based on top erg scores. This
is all the more reason to have everyone test under the same conditions,
and those testing for "important" things (i.e. financing, invitations
to camp, etc) should do so in a verified,calibrated environment.
There are those who seem to think that being skeptical of a score
implies that one feels the record-breaker, his friends, or even PBC
are liars. This of course is not true. History is _full_ of events
groups (even thousands) have seen that ended up being wrong for
various reasons. I'm positive that I have been in one of these
groups. Although this of course is a problem for "verified, calibrated
environments" as well,a little planning can help make those involved
feel the playing field is even.
I'm sure _any_ of the people actually involved here (natl. team people,
C. Groom, incensed PBC members, etc) would agree with this. Just ask
them:
"Do you want world records decided in standardized, verified tests,
or do you want people to be able to phone them in?"
To the people at the top, (those that matter), they've put in too
much time to have me call in my 4:33 2k time...
Michael
PMckeon531
lawyers get involved. It will require two things:
1) The Mid-Atlantic Erg Sprints take place Sat., February 3 at GW High
School in Alexandria, VA. I would ask that the supporters of Mr. Groom
ask him to race at this indoor regatta. Conal is training for the Olympic
2x and I think it is asking a lot of him to go to the CRASH-Bs to solve
our argument. This race is a relatively short (<40 min) drive from
Georgetown and would minimize the impact to his training. He could even
do as part of a workout.
2) Should Conal agree to this, and I ask his supporters to post his
agreement to r.s.r., until February 3rd everyone leave this issue alone.
Just _shut up_. The results will get posted and settle the argument.
Should Conal verify his previous scores, I would hope that he consider
making his training program available at some point in the future. His
performance is nothing short of phenomenal and his program could help
rowers everywhere.
-Pat McKeon
Ransom Weaver
: top. To them, people breaking records are a very big deal. You
: can image what people's response over in the Track & Field group
: would say if you said:
: "My friend just broke the existing WR for his class by 15 seconds
: in the 5k (run) (actually, percentage-wise much less of a difference
: than is being disputed here). I _saw_ him do it!"
: I can assure you the majority of the people would be more than a
: little skeptical. The people at the top would just laugh.
The above would appear to be a reference to the Ethiopian runner Gebrsellasie
who did set such a WR this year. Some have called it the greatest WR running
performance of all time.
Perhaps I can add an impartial voice; I have no opinion as to whether Conal
did or didn't do what he said he did, or whether he should go out of his way
to have his stuff verified by some jury or umpires.
I would put forward some reasons why in the case of these performances, we
souldn't use their very novelty against them.
consider the above WR; even 100 years into this era of olympic T&F, it is still
possible to break a WR by a stunning margin. Also, rember Beamon's unbreakable
longjump from the Mexico City olympics? Really, given the span of human
evolution, this era of recorded performances is a very small sampling of
human capablities. One might reasonably assume that WR performances should
occur along a curve of the probablity of an individual genetically capable
of such a performance becoming, by choice, an athlete. This takes the passage
of time, and 100 years out of tens of thousands is a really small blip. Point
is who can say what the human body is really capable of? Also, population
growth makes more great performances in a shorter span of time more likely,
rather than established records making future records less likely.
Consider rowing incomparison to running: The gene pool involved in running is
orders of magnitude greater than that involved in rowing. From this one could
easily infer that great performers should be more rare, and that it would be
more likely to see individuals who outstrip the norm by great margins in
rowing in contrast to running. By the same token, training and development
of talent is surely much more advanced in running than in rowing. World champ
times have fallen dramatically in rowing over the last few decades, much
more so than in running. Running may more "mature" than rowing.
Consider the CII erg: people have been generating scores for the past 10 years
only. this is hardly a sampling of performance on which to say what is possible
and what is not. And how many rowers in the world actually use the machine?
No, those who think that these scores are suspect just because they haven't
been done or even approached before are being mighty parochial. After all,
of the billions of people on this earth, how many are submitting scores to
USRA?
And BTW, I noticed that none of the Princeton group's scores were
included in the national testing posting. By now this includes at least 10
sub 20 minute performances. And by hard training on the erg, even these
veteran elite rowers, whom one could harly expect to, as a group, improve
on their PRs, have *averaged* about a 30 sec improvement from first to last
testings.
Ransom
Cluster User
>
>5:57/2000m => pace of 1:29.2 = 492.9 watts
>6:17/2000m => pace of 1:34.0 = 427.4 watts
>
(~ 170 lbs) pumped out an average of over 500 watts over 13 minutes during a
race this summer. Impressive, considering he trains for races an order of
magnitude longer....
Kate Koplan
scores? I think tis is all falming because every one is so fucking
sensitive about their erg scores. They aren't the bea all and end all.
Keep improving and don't worry about what phenoms pull. If you don't
pull of the charts at the moment then you most probably never will.
Being comfortable wit a good progression of improvement is the only way
that you will keep on improving and stick with it. People quit when they
think tey aren't improving enough or at all, so if you are looking at
phenoms as the goal your scores may look poor in comparison when they
may be good improvements. Basically don't sweat it so much put keep
pushing YOURSELF and let other peoples' scores do as they will YOU CAN'T
CONTROL THEM. Later.
Kate Koplan
Empacher
mg...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Marc Gwadz) wrote:
>
>You are way out of line. I originally wasn't going to post this,
> but I think this sort of netiquette is too far out of bounds to
But thank god you blessed us with your opinion anyway!
Are you going to drip with jealousy this time as well?
>a) i think you owe me an apology-
Oh wah. Were your wittle feewings hurt?
> the potomac. and, a cynic might say that he was in that 4x in
>large part due to those erg scores, anyway!
Laff. You're demonstrating your pathetic ignorance with that last
statement. What a sad way to slam someone who makes the lightweight 4x
at 20 years old.
>d) if you bothered to read my post,you would see that i never claimed
>that the scores aren't real
Yeah, sure you didn't. *chuckle*
>that the scores aren't real only that they need to be done in a public
>forum to be widely believed.
More importantly, they need to be done in Boston, right? You're so damn
high on yourselves that you cant believe anyone would row anywhere else!
GOD FORBID someone train out of PBC! Thats a pretty major camp folks, and
there were plenty of people there to verify his score.
> e) if conal groom wants to have public recognition of his scores (as he
> apparently does since he submits them), then he should expect scutiny.
He just sends his scores in every month. He doesn't talk about them,
he doesn't brag about them, and he doesn't expect them to get him in a bout.
The only people that seem concerned with public recognition are the jealous
folks that are so insecure they have to slam other people's scores instead
of sitting their fat asses on the erg and performing. As Jeff Moag posted,
Conal spends the vast majority of his time on the water, testing only because
it is tacitly required by USRA. Conal didn't even post the scores on this
newsgroup, and probably never reads it either!
> i can't imagine why you would think such rudeness is tolerable.
I cant believe you find such pathetic, inexcuseable jealousy and
fear amongst so many rowers over someone elses ERG SCORES tolerable.
Maybe if all the heavyweights that think they are such hot shit spent
more time training and less time worrying about the veracity of Conal's
scores, they wouldn't have to whine about how bad he is kicking their ass,
and how bad they get doored at worlds/olympics? More balls, less bitching
would be a nice motto.
-Michael Hartman
"O, beware, my lord, of jealousy:
It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock
the meat it feeds on."
-Othello, Act III, scene iii.
Daniel Martin
I agree that this was an amayzing feat, but cycling is a little different. He didn't
maintain 500 watts consistantly for 13 minutes. With hills there is a climb and a
decend, you pump hard up the hill and then relatively speaking rest on the decend.
This means he is actually doing something more along the lines of interval work, albiet
irregular in pattern, but it is still interval.
If you are trying to get the highest average wattage on the erg then you would
do better by doing intervals, although your score would suffer. To get the
best score on the erg you have to remain consistantly close to your AT. This comes
from the fact that the Power is porportional to the velocity cubed (P = Cv^3). Lets
say your average power output is 300 watts and during the test you increase your power by
10% (330 watts) for a minute. Then your speed increases by 3.3% using the cubed formula.
However, during the recovery where you had to decrease your power by 10% (270 watts) your
speed decreased by 10% ! Your overall score just got worse. There are physiological effects
that I have not taken into consideration, but this is a simplified version of why a
consistant pace is recommended.
However, cyclist, on the other hand, are always going above AT on the hills and then below
AT to recover. There are different physiological parameters at play. Miguel could go up
to 500-600 watts for a short duration and then recover at 250-300 watts for a while subscribed
by the course. Because of this his power output would be higher than if he had to
maintain a consistant pace. I am not saying that Miguel would not score great on an erg,
but it would be interesting to see his result.
If you don't believe me then do some 1' on/1' off pieces on the erg, but instead of just goofing
off during the 1' off piece, sit somewhere close but below you AT. After 10' of this you
will notice that you power output is higher than what you can do for 10' flat out.
Dan
--
Thomas C. Riley
The Tour de France, the premier bicycle race in the world which Miguel
Indurain has won 5 consecutive times, has numerous mountain ascents.
These climbs can be as long as 20 miles and do not level out at all.
Seeing the speed at which the pros climb these hills I can believe
that Indurain puts out an incredible amount of sustained power for
long periods.
Tom Riley
PMckeon531
writes:
>I agree that this was an amayzing feat, but cycling is a little
different.
>He didn't
>maintain 500 watts consistantly for 13 minutes.
I'm not familiar with this particular test, but it would not surprise me
in the least to learn that Indurain did actually maintain 500 watts for 13
minutes. He does, afterall, have the highest recorded VO2 Max; somewhere
around 88 l/kg/min.
-Pat McKeon
Daniel Martin
>
>
>
> Great theory about the hills and such until you look at the
> time trial courses in the Tour de France. They are mostly
> flat, and the riders are definitely going all out
> throughout the race.
>
Yah, but no one is saying that he scores 500 watts on every ride
he does. It was just one 13 minute ride were he was recorded.
I don't know if the course was flat or hilly at the time but
my guess is that it was hilly.
If you think about what it actually means to sustain 500
watts for 13 minutes on an erg then it is quite amayzing. Actually,
an erg uses more muscle groups than a bike, so on a bike it is
even harder. 500 watts on an erg is equivalent to a pace of
1:28-1:29. Keep this for 13 minutes, come on lets get real!!! Your
are comparing apples with oranges.
If Miguel can sustain 500 watts then by transferring his power to
the erg he could cross 2500m at 7:20 and still have almost 6 minutes
to go. I know Miguel is tough and all but this is too much.
I think Miguel could do pretty well on an erg, but the world
record would not be in jeopardy.
charlie hamlin
>
> Cluster User wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >5:57/2000m => pace of 1:29.2 = 492.9 watts
> > >6:17/2000m => pace of 1:34.0 = 427.4 watts
> > >
> > to veer off the subject a bit, it was calculated that cyclist Miguel Indurain
> > (~ 170 lbs) pumped out an average of over 500 watts over 13 minutes during a
> > race this summer. Impressive, considering he trains for races an order of
> > magnitude longer....
For many years, Dr. Fritz Hagerman of Ohio University has studied the
physiology of rowing and other intensive sports such as cycling. I and other
members of the '68 and '72 Olympic rowing teams have been the subjects of his
studies over the years (to the older oarsmen out there you'll be sad to hear
that despite hard training, you can't stop the degradation of the old
engine). I remember his telling me that he had worked with Greg LeMond and
had compared his results with ours. LeMond was "off the charts" of anything
Fritz had seen. His body was far more efficient than any of the members of
the '72 silver medal eight or any other Olympic athletes Fritz had measured.
I undestood from his comments that there are individuals like LeMond and
Indurian who are freaks of nature; who are blessed with bodies that allow
them to work harder and longer than most all others. It is therefore not
surprising that Indurian might well be able to work at above 500 watts for
longer than most mortals. It's in the genes.
Daniel Martin
This is not very high. I scored 84 a few years ago. Also, I know
of an olympic runner, Paul McCloy, who score the highest in Canada
at the time. His score was 98 ml/Kg/min. I also know that some
of the Canadian lightweights are 6 L/kg athletes, so by dividing
by their bodyweight (70kg) you are in the high 80's, low 90's.
I bet that if Conal was tested then he would be around 100+ if his
scores are real. :) Anyone know what his VO2max is?
However, beware, a high VO2max doesn't necessarily mean a great
performance. Other factors such as anerobic threshold as a % of
VO2max, maximum strength, etc. also come into play.
I heard a rumor that when the 92 Canadian 8+ was tested for VO2max
the results were not released because one of the strongest
athlete's score was well below the rest.
regards,
Dan Martin
Chandler Collins
>PMckeon531 wrote:
>>
>> In article <3103F397...@bnr.ca>, Daniel Martin <dma...@bnr.ca>
>> writes:
>>
>> >I agree that this was an amayzing feat, but cycling is a little
>> different.
>> >He didn't
>> >maintain 500 watts consistantly for 13 minutes.
>>
>> I'm not familiar with this particular test, but it would not surprise me
>> in the least to learn that Indurain did actually maintain 500 watts for 13
>> minutes. He does, afterall, have the highest recorded VO2 Max; somewhere
>> around 88 l/kg/min.
>>
>This is not very high. I scored 84 a few years ago. Also, I know
>of an olympic runner, Paul McCloy, who score the highest in Canada
>at the time. His score was 98 ml/Kg/min. I also know that some
>of the Canadian lightweights are 6 L/kg athletes, so by dividing
>by their bodyweight (70kg) you are in the high 80's, low 90's.
>I bet that if Conal was tested then he would be around 100+ if his
>scores are real. :) Anyone know what his VO2max is?
>However, beware, a high VO2max doesn't necessarily mean a great
>performance. Other factors such as anerobic threshold as a % of
>VO2max, maximum strength, etc. also come into play.
[snipped]
VO2max also does not take into account a particular rower's (runner's,
cyclist's, etc.) efficiency of movement. I remember reading a study
of Olympic 800 runners and showing how the ones with the best VO2's
were not necessarily the ones that were winning. It was determined
that by-and-large the winners were the ones that had the most
efficient strides. In other words, what's the importance of a high
VO2 if you waste it all flailing around.
This would obviously apply to more than just running, and certainly
justifies coaches' pleas to athlete to *relax* in the movement (be it
the stroke, stride, or what have you). Tension is wasted energy.
Chandler
Jim Hilsenteger
>
>However, cyclist, on the other hand, are always going above AT on the hills and then below
>AT to recover. There are different physiological parameters at play. Miguel could go up
>to 500-600 watts for a short duration and then recover at 250-300 watts for a while subscribed
>by the course. Because of this his power output would be higher than if he had to
>maintain a consistant pace. I am not saying that Miguel would not score great on an erg,
>but it would be interesting to see his result.
>
Great theory about the hills and such until you look at the
time trial courses in the Tour de France. They are mostly
flat, and the riders are definitely going all out
throughout the race.
--
Jim Hilsenteger
Oregon Rowing Unlimited/Oaks Park
hi...@teleport.com
"Life is too long for bad coffee"
Jan Gunnar Moe
>cyclist's, etc.) efficiency of movement. I remember reading a study
>of Olympic 800 runners and showing how the ones with the best VO2's
>were not necessarily the ones that were winning. It was determined
>that by-and-large the winners were the ones that had the most
>efficient strides. In other words, what's the importance of a high
>VO2 if you waste it all flailing around.
>This would obviously apply to more than just running, and certainly
>justifies coaches' pleas to athlete to *relax* in the movement (be it
>the stroke, stride, or what have you). Tension is wasted energy.
>Chandler
Quite obvious. Another example is Norwegian speed skater Johan Olav Koss, Gold
on 1500m, 5000m and 10000m last winter Olympics, all distances except the
sprint. He was said to not be the Norwegian skater with the best test results
off ice, year after year. But again, year after year, he was best among the
Norwegians when they got onto ice. Body mechanics suitable for the sport, good
technique, ...
Jan Gunnar
James McGowan
: Cluster User wrote:
: >
: > >
: > >5:57/2000m => pace of 1:29.2 = 492.9 watts
: > >6:17/2000m => pace of 1:34.0 = 427.4 watts
: > >
: > to veer off the subject a bit, it was calculated that cyclist Miguel Indurain
: > (~ 170 lbs) pumped out an average of over 500 watts over 13 minutes during a
: > race this summer. Impressive, considering he trains for races an order of
: > magnitude longer....
: I agree that this was an amayzing feat, but cycling is a little different. He didn't
: maintain 500 watts consistantly for 13 minutes. With hills there is a climb and a
: decend, you pump hard up the hill and then relatively speaking rest on the decend.
: This means he is actually doing something more along the lines of interval work, albiet
: irregular in pattern, but it is still interval.
: If you are trying to get the highest average wattage on the erg then you would
: do better by doing intervals, although your score would suffer. To get the
: best score on the erg you have to remain consistantly close to your AT. This comes
: from the fact that the Power is porportional to the velocity cubed (P = Cv^3). Lets
: say your average power output is 300 watts and during the test you increase your power by
: 10% (330 watts) for a minute. Then your speed increases by 3.3% using the cubed formula.
: However, during the recovery where you had to decrease your power by 10% (270 watts) your
: speed decreased by 10% ! Your overall score just got worse. There are physiological effects
: that I have not taken into consideration, but this is a simplified version of why a
: consistant pace is recommended.
: However, cyclist, on the other hand, are always going above AT on the hills and then below
: AT to recover. There are different physiological parameters at play. Miguel could go up
: to 500-600 watts for a short duration and then recover at 250-300 watts for a while subscribed
: by the course. Because of this his power output would be higher than if he had to
: maintain a consistant pace. I am not saying that Miguel would not score great on an erg,
: but it would be interesting to see his result.
: If you don't believe me then do some 1' on/1' off pieces on the erg, but instead of just goofing
: off during the 1' off piece, sit somewhere close but below you AT. After 10' of this you
: will notice that you power output is higher than what you can do for 10' flat out.
:
: Dan
: --
: ---------------------------------------------------------------
: | email: dma...@bnr.ca | Opinions are mine all mine, but |
: | Bell Northern Research | are subject to change without |
: | Ottawa, Ontario | notice. |
: ---------------------------------------------------------------
You should be able to create higher wattages on a bike because
you don't have to recover between strokes, you just keep on spinning.
Digs
KMay95
time I was on my erg down my basement and pulled a fuckn' 5:22 for 2k. But
it just so happened that no one was in my house at the time. And I could
never again get back in the groove that I had that day. Then one day I was
on my erg again and I pulled so hard that I had negative splits. But again
there was no one in my house.
BAD ASS
PETER N PN BULATOVIC
speed of light!
MantaW
younger? Does Jean-Luke know about this??
...........engage!
Kate Koplan
the results were not released because one of the strongest
athlete's score was well below the rest.
regards,
Dan Martin
>>This is true. Rob Marland 4 or 5 seat of the Canadian heavy eight in 92 had a VO2 max of the "average housewife." He certainly got the job done though.
David S.
>
> genes or no genes they train like dogs for years! Cyclists usually
> start at about ten years of age ...
So that's the secret, eh?
Let's see ... chase squirrels, bark at mailmen, overturn trash cans,
sniff crotches, urinate on trees, on lamposts, fences, fire hydrants ...
Well, it sure sounds like more fun than those hour-long erg pieces.
David S.
"Woof, woof"