is this b-ll-cks (TM)?
Nick Suess
number of our club coaches that in correct sweep technique ALL THE WORK
(like, 100%, OK, man?) is done by the outside arm, and the inside arm does
NO WORK (d'ya see, zero %, know what I mean?). He encouraged us all to coach
this point.
Now, I understand without Carl or Anu reminding me that work = force x
distance, and as the outside arm moves further than the inside arm, it is
likely to do more work. Fair enough, that's the energy consideration. Also I
understand that the oar is a lever, and the outside arm therefore has far
greater leverage, so provides a greater component of the effective force on
the blade. That's the force consideration.
All this adds up to the outside arm making a greater contibution towards
moving the boat than the inside. But I never heard of anyone saying not to
tug with the inside one.
Whaddya all think?
Surely I detect bollocks(TM).
Nick (mister bollocks) Suess
Rob Collings
wrote:
>A supposedly whiz-bang young coach the other day pronounced to myself and a
>number of our club coaches that in correct sweep technique ALL THE WORK
>(like, 100%, OK, man?) is done by the outside arm, and the inside arm does
>NO WORK (d'ya see, zero %, know what I mean?). He encouraged us all to coach
>this point.
<snip>
>Whaddya all think?
>
>Surely I detect bollocks(TM).
>
>Nick (mister bollocks) Suess
Dear Mister Bollocks,
I believe that you are right in you classification of this statement
as bollocks.
But I've heard it many times. I often coach to *empasize* the draw
with the outside arm, but my girls have a habit of dropping the wrists
at the finish and losing the power so I am trying to get them to keep
the work on a bit more.
Just ask your coach to do a 2k erg one handed, then do one with 2
hands. Or do a max dumbell lift with one hand, then a max barbell lift
with 2.
2 arms = 2x (force of one arm) Must be rocket science or something.
(although this doesn't quite hold in my case cos my right arm is
stronger than my left)
So while the inside arms can't do as much WORK, it can still apply the
same FORCE. And as we all know, Work = mass x acceleration x distance
(of work). So the more work we can do, the more the boat will
accelerate.
Did you tell him it was bollocks? Cos it is a prime cut.
Rob.
Anu Dudhia
two arms (eg square blades, rowing in 4's if necessary).
Ask your coach to explain that.
Anu Dudhia
PS although I do have a certain amount of sympathy with anyone who has to coach
you.
Zak Wood
<snip></snip>
>
> PS although I do have a certain amount of sympathy with anyone who has to
coach
> you.
>
Ooohh.... blades are drawn... (Although with only one arm, I suspect...)
Harry Mahon used to coach that the outside arm begins the draw, but that the
inside arm is the money for the finish. I'd have to agree with him, and
always find that if I bring my inside arm to bear at the finish (Obviously
the outside is still working though), my finishes improve enormously (by
which I mean that they come out of the water).
Just a thought from the South.
Paul Slade
Ive also heard rumours that he is the genius behind one legged sprinting and
the pioneer of a new oar shaped like a fork.
Id row with him in a pair anyday -- that way I dont need to be doing much
work to make the boat go straight!
Paul - Friend and student of Mr Bollocks Suess
.
"Nick Suess" <ni...@scull.com.au> wrote in message
news:3cec9a4c$0$15...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Neil Wallace
Nick,
are you just boasting because a young person is now an acquaintance of
yours?
I fear for his future, you may be a bad influence on him.... he's already
talking bxxlocks, have you got him on the sauce as well?
Neil
Tim Granger
I agree with you - I'm sure we had a discussion about this
before; I did a crude diagram to try and explain how I think
about it.
The angle between the inside forearm and the handle at the
finish is 90 degrees, between the outside forearm and the
handle it's more like 135 degrees. Resolve in the direction
of motion of the handle and it compensates for the difference
between the point of application and the pivot point.
For this reason some people say keep the outside elbow right
in to the body to make the outside arm/handle angle more like
90 degrees, but I personally find this very hard and looking
at videos of internationals they don't seem to do this.
Tim
Mel Harbour
> >
> >Harry Mahon used to coach that the outside arm begins the draw, but that
the
> >inside arm is the money for the finish. I'd have to agree with him, and
> >always find that if I bring my inside arm to bear at the finish
(Obviously
> >the outside is still working though), my finishes improve enormously (by
> >which I mean that they come out of the water).
>
> I agree with you - I'm sure we had a discussion about this
> before; I did a crude diagram to try and explain how I think
> about it.
>
> The angle between the inside forearm and the handle at the
> finish is 90 degrees, between the outside forearm and the
> handle it's more like 135 degrees. Resolve in the direction
> of motion of the handle and it compensates for the difference
> between the point of application and the pivot point.
>
> For this reason some people say keep the outside elbow right
> in to the body to make the outside arm/handle angle more like
> 90 degrees, but I personally find this very hard and looking
> at videos of internationals they don't seem to do this.
AFAIK, the GB eight in Sydney were focusing on drawing the inside shoulder
backwards at the finish (result being that their shoulders were square on at
the release).
You can also see what Tim's saying with the outside arm if you watch some of
the footage of the Boat Race. It features (relatively) quite a lot of shots
from the helicopter above the boats, where you can see clearly that the
don't have their outside elbows 'tucked into' the body.
The conclusion that I came to was that this idea of tucking the outside
elbow in arises as a slight misinterpretation of something somebody said
once. I think the original idea was that if you are 'chicken winging' with
your outside elbow, you are distributing the muscular effort largely to the
small arm muscles, as opposed to engaging the (large) lats. Thinking about
keeping the elbow more tucked in will encourage the use of the lats in this
case, but I don't think it's worth overdoing it too much. On the same
subject, it's interesting to note that adjusting the rower so that his
elbows are turned loosely slightly downwards seems to cause his arm to move
correctly almost automatically!
M
j brontey
> Row with your outside arm only and see how fast you go compared to rowing with
> two arms (eg square blades, rowing in 4's if necessary).
>
> Ask your coach to explain that.
You can actually get an eight going very fast rowing inside arm only
because of all the extra length you get. Especially if you can get it
going with the blades almost parallel to the boat. Not as fast
obviously as with both arms but much better than outside arm only
because of the stroke length. It's one of the practical examples of
why rowing long is so important or why a double is faster than a pair.
Ben
Alister Taylor
Nick Suess, corrupter of our nation's youth. ROTFLMAO!
And what is wrong with alcohol? Beer is good, beer is our friend.
Zak Wood
> And what is wrong with alcohol? Beer is good, beer is our friend.
Yes, agreed.... And my only piece of advice on this horribly hungover day
is that wine is *not* our friend...
Alister Taylor
Here's a tip. Never row with a hungover wine drinker in bow seat.
Al
James
> On Thu, 23 May 2002 15:30:24 +0800, "Nick Suess" <ni...@scull.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >A supposedly whiz-bang young coach the other day pronounced to myself and a
> >number of our club coaches that in correct sweep technique ALL THE WORK
> >(like, 100%, OK, man?) is done by the outside arm, and the inside arm does
> >NO WORK (d'ya see, zero %, know what I mean?). He encouraged us all to coach
> >this point.
> <snip>
> >Whaddya all think?
> >
I don't get how this could work at all. I started rowing on bow side,
and in eight months have only done about 3 outings on stroke side.
Having had negligible muscle bulk or tone on my arms beforehand, the
result is that my left arm has built up hugely, and my right (outside)
arm is not much stronger than before. To stay locked in to a good
position throughout the leg drive, and to
finish and tap down cleanly, it seems that the work has to be done on
the inside.
However, I do have a couple of questions. Firstly, why does my inside
arm hurt, but my outside hand blister really badly? I am not
overstating to say that a dozen outings into this term, (therefore
after about 150+k) I had no skin left on three of my right hand
fingers. My local chemist is a millionaire because of all the Zinc
Oxide tape I bought, just to make it through outings. It would be nice
to know why this happens before I trial for a much more intensive form
of rowing than college 2nd VIII (albeit now the third-highest placed
2nd VIII on the river, after Donnington Bridge annihilations of
Lincoln II and New II - yay!).
Secondly, how important is this thing with the outside elbow pointing
straight backwards at the finish? It feels pretty weird, and as soon
as I was told to do it I immediately developed the traditional leaning
out at finish/drawing down/missing last foot of stroke problem.
Regards,
James Blythe.
Rob Collings
wrote:
>However, I do have a couple of questions. Firstly, why does my inside
>arm hurt, but my outside hand blister really badly?
Ask your coach. Its hard to tell as there could be a million causes.
Usually, I find that if the inside arm is hurting its from gripping
too hard. That would cause the forearm to tire and could eventually
lead to worse - things like teno.
Outside hand will probably blister more than the inside. Since the
handle rotates inside the hand, there is a lot more rubbing than on
the other hand. Harder skin is about the only way to go. If the skin
isn't too tender, try some surgical spirit. The blisters should
eventually turn to callouses anyway. Not pretty, but they work!
Rob
John Mulholland
(the big muscles in the back). For this to work the arm should be as near
as possible at 90 degrees to the handle. That puts the elbow close to the
body during the draw. One possible problem is that your stretcher is too
close to the bow of the boat so that the end of the handle is in front of
your body. To get the end of the draw at the correct angle, the end of the
handle should be just outside the line of your body.
I hope this is helpful. Ask again if you don't understand it.
John Mulholland
Hexham Rowing Club
"James" <james....@chch.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:901698cd.02052...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
Zak Wood
"Alister Taylor" <a...@irow.com> wrote in message
news:78ae4359.02052...@posting.google.com...
Joe Tynan
contribute to the awkward feeling of having a close elbow, and also
with the dropping of your handle. At the finish, pick of your wrists,
las if you were trying to tuck in your shirt but the oar handle is in
the way.
Joe
james....@chch.ox.ac.uk (James) wrote:
>
>Secondly, how important is this thing with the outside elbow pointing
>straight backwards at the finish? It feels pretty weird, and as soon
>as I was told to do it I immediately developed the traditional leaning
>out at finish/drawing down/missing last foot of stroke problem.
>
>Regards,
>
>James Blythe.
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
Alister Taylor
> Hmmm... I was the hungover bowman last Saturday... but thanks.
>
Maybe I should have told the rest of your crew :)
Enjoy the day
Al