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Bat Logic shoe mounting
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carl
Sep 8, 2015, 10:24:46 AM9/8/15
to
I've a client who wishes us to fit Bat Logic kit.
Not having handled this equipment, I've just visited their website. Now
I have one big concern It appears that the only ways to release your
foot in an emergency are either: a) to pull the release tab at the toe
of the shoe, or b) to rip open the transverse flap across the instep.
There appears to be no _passive_ foot release. OK, I may be missing
something, but if the boat is inverted or sunk such that the user is in
any way injured or incapacitated, what ensures that they will come free
from an inverted boat & do not remain trapped. I am therefore deeply
concerned.
Thanks in advance for any info -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
Not having handled this equipment, I've just visited their website. Now
I have one big concern It appears that the only ways to release your
foot in an emergency are either: a) to pull the release tab at the toe
of the shoe, or b) to rip open the transverse flap across the instep.
There appears to be no _passive_ foot release. OK, I may be missing
something, but if the boat is inverted or sunk such that the user is in
any way injured or incapacitated, what ensures that they will come free
from an inverted boat & do not remain trapped. I am therefore deeply
concerned.
Thanks in advance for any info -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
Emm
Sep 8, 2015, 10:48:25 AM9/8/15
to
Hello Carl,
having fitted a Bat Logic plate myself recently - I think there are no
worries to have, due to the fact, that the BatLogic plate is just an
additional layer to the existing footplate and the release is all with
shoes, not with the plate.
So, once the BatLogic plate was screwed on top of the existing
footplate, I then screwed the shoes on these "2 layers" and tied up the
bottom of the shoes as usual/before. (Usual shoes do not release, the
ties are opened - except for one system, I do not remember the name,
which advertised, that their shoes would come off the boat like a bike
click pedal if you fall in - but I think that this system is rather rare).
The BatLogic plate works well with the Omeda Nike shoes, as well as with
the red Addidas rowing shoes.
I hope this helps
(and I would have a spare pair of new Omeda Nike shoes - black -
corresponding to size 6.5/7 in the UK to sell ,if someone is interested).
Emm
having fitted a Bat Logic plate myself recently - I think there are no
worries to have, due to the fact, that the BatLogic plate is just an
additional layer to the existing footplate and the release is all with
shoes, not with the plate.
So, once the BatLogic plate was screwed on top of the existing
footplate, I then screwed the shoes on these "2 layers" and tied up the
bottom of the shoes as usual/before. (Usual shoes do not release, the
ties are opened - except for one system, I do not remember the name,
which advertised, that their shoes would come off the boat like a bike
click pedal if you fall in - but I think that this system is rather rare).
The BatLogic plate works well with the Omeda Nike shoes, as well as with
the red Addidas rowing shoes.
I hope this helps
(and I would have a spare pair of new Omeda Nike shoes - black -
corresponding to size 6.5/7 in the UK to sell ,if someone is interested).
Emm
Emm
Sep 8, 2015, 10:51:48 AM9/8/15
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Oh, just realised - The mounting sequence is reverse: first screw the
shoes to the Batlogic plate, and then both together to the footplate, as
if these were shoes with a thicker sole. I guess this may be a good
image to visualise the system: the BatLogic plate is like an additional
sole to your usual rowing shoes.
shoes to the Batlogic plate, and then both together to the footplate, as
if these were shoes with a thicker sole. I guess this may be a good
image to visualise the system: the BatLogic plate is like an additional
sole to your usual rowing shoes.
thomas....@googlemail.com
Sep 8, 2015, 11:21:59 AM9/8/15
to
It does look is a nice way to quickly move shoes between footplates but I would guess that the shoes should still always be installed with heel restraints and so therefore should undo passively in the same way as any other velcro shoe in the situation you describe, the nike shoes certainly have the "hoop" for heel restraints to be attached to and it is how i have set mine up (mine are pre-quick release).
I haven't been in the situation to test mine as of yet!
carl
Sep 8, 2015, 11:23:22 AM9/8/15
to
My first concern, as a builder, is that I do not fit equipment which has
safety issues. And I thought RSR would have people well able to
respond, just as you have done - thank you.
It seems to me that what the makers call quick release, which is a
safety-related term in normal parlance, is actually a means of quickly
changing the shoes. And that one is left to fit effective heel
restraints. That's fine, although I am concerned that the user might be
led by the literature to conclude that safety was already provided.
I can now tell my client that we're happy to fit this kit.
Thanks again -
Emm
Sep 8, 2015, 11:35:37 AM9/8/15
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- just the previous model without it.
Assuming the rower will take their shoes on and off via the quick
release - they may be tempted not to tie up the heel restraints, as this
can be quite fidly (at least for my fingers). I do not think that this
will apply to a single sculler - as the sculler is likely to leave the
shoes in.
But I think, it is definitely something to think of - if the whole
concept is used as "every rower has their own pair of shoes" - which
they take on and off in different crew boats/even ergs. This seems to be
what one of the adds is conveying. In that case, I do not see each
individual rower tying up the heel restraint once their shoes are
clicked in. Maybe the click release also comes with something smart for
tying quickly the heel restraint - I haven't seen this model.
(And I like the idea of every rowner having their own shoes. Long long
time ago, the rowing club where I was rowing in Belgium, had this as a
rule: every rower had their own shoes/footplate and all the club crew
boats were standardised to take that very fitting.)
martin...@gmail.com
Sep 9, 2015, 5:53:11 AM9/9/15
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Not sure if it was here or on the rowperfect pages where I have mentioned it before but there is a shimano verion of the "quick release" shoes.
I tend to agree with you Carl tha these are quick change shoes for convenience rather than quick release in case of accidents. (having taken a tumble or 2 off bikes with cleats I can vouch that they are not as quick releasing as you may like and indeed the tension within some pedals can be adjusted)
not having seen these shoes I do have another question for RSR
if the shoe comes detached from the plate in an accident but is restrained by the heel restraints how difficult is it to get out of the shoe? your foot is now "flapping" around but you are tied to the boat by a heel restraint
Martin
I tend to agree with you Carl tha these are quick change shoes for convenience rather than quick release in case of accidents. (having taken a tumble or 2 off bikes with cleats I can vouch that they are not as quick releasing as you may like and indeed the tension within some pedals can be adjusted)
not having seen these shoes I do have another question for RSR
if the shoe comes detached from the plate in an accident but is restrained by the heel restraints how difficult is it to get out of the shoe? your foot is now "flapping" around but you are tied to the boat by a heel restraint
Martin
BG
Sep 9, 2015, 6:35:38 AM9/9/15
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I also have been wondering about this issue Carl.
It seems both BAT and Shimano (and also other shoe brands) are using the same word for a different function: Easy release and safety release.
This video shows the Shimano shoes releasing when capsizing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPS8p4jS6_g
I also spoke to a dutch single sculler (Frans Gobel) several times who mentioned that he would release from the Shimano shoes when hitting an other boat last year. Thus reducing the moving mass on impact en probably saving his 1x.
Anyway there seems to be a difference between quick release and quick release.
It seems both BAT and Shimano (and also other shoe brands) are using the same word for a different function: Easy release and safety release.
This video shows the Shimano shoes releasing when capsizing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPS8p4jS6_g
I also spoke to a dutch single sculler (Frans Gobel) several times who mentioned that he would release from the Shimano shoes when hitting an other boat last year. Thus reducing the moving mass on impact en probably saving his 1x.
Anyway there seems to be a difference between quick release and quick release.
madmar...@gmail.com
Sep 9, 2015, 7:58:40 AM9/9/15
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> Anyway there seems to be a difference between quick release and quick release.
Henry Law
Sep 9, 2015, 8:12:43 AM9/9/15
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On 09/09/15 10:53, martin...@gmail.com wrote:
> if the shoe comes detached from the plate in an accident but is
> restrained by the heel restraints how difficult is it to get out
> of the shoe? your foot is now "flapping" around but you are
> tied to the boat by a heel restraint
I've not looked at this product much before; I was put off by the whiff
> if the shoe comes detached from the plate in an accident but is
> restrained by the heel restraints how difficult is it to get out
> of the shoe? your foot is now "flapping" around but you are
> tied to the boat by a heel restraint
of snake oil, though that may be slightly unkind. However, this
conversation has prompted me to go back and look at the web site.
This BAT Logic product video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvxxTbQOVMk
quite clearly shows a sculler putting shoes into his 1x and marching off
with it on his shoulder, entirely without any attention to heel release
cords (which didn't even seem to feature in the other stills and videos
that I watched, though I didn't look at absolutely everything). IMO, as
a recently-retired Safety Advisor, this is a disgraceful video to post,
encouraging all the wrong behaviour.
And this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9LBjwdzrWY shows a boatman
moving shoes around in a crew boat, with nary a heel release cord in
sight. Equally dangerous.
In fact, the need to release the heels looks to have been completely
overlooked in the course of the design of the "quick release" feature.
The designers came up with a design; the marketing people loved it; the
finance people liked the sound of $148 a shot, and then late in the
development cycle someone in the company who understood rowing safety
said "By the way, what about a heel release cord?", and after a stunned
silence one of the product team was heard to mutter "OSINTOT!".
It seems to me that if a heel release cord is installed (as it must be)
then (a) the quick-release properties of the product are seriously
compromised; and (b) there is still a question about how safe the rower
would be if in an incident the quick-release mechanism were to fire,
leaving her or him upside down in the water restrained by a 50mm cord
attached to each heel. That sounds to me pretty much as bad as being
restrained by both feet.
If someone from BAT Logic is reading this, would they please suggest how
they are going to cope with this apparent problem? Oh, and they might
give some explanation for why they've posted videos showing dangerous
behaviour.
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
carl
Sep 9, 2015, 8:16:16 AM9/9/15
to
I am very disturbed by all & any of these slack misapplications of the
term "quick release". They smack of a manufacturer concerned more with
easy sales than the potentially fatal consequences of confusing users.
It is IMHO deeply irresponsible to confuse in rowers' minds, for your
own sales purposes, the simple logic of those words, which hitherto were
uniquely associated with rowing shoes providing passive & safe
disconnection of rower from stretcher. I find it particularly
ill-judged from a company using the word "logic" in its name.
"Quick release" as a headline descriptor in promotional literature for a
shoe system which offers no such function in any emergency looks at best
sloppy, & at worst it is deeply cynical. To couple this with a total
absence, as far as I can detect, of any reference to the need to provide
a proper quick release heel cord, & of any instructions on fitting same,
further compounds the fault.
Unfortunately, in rowing those who write promotional stuff too often
become "intoxicated by the exuberance of their own verbosity", making
claims which too often defy all logic. When related to competitive
performance benefits, that's regrettable. When it impinges adversely
upon rower safety, that's unacceptable.
Regarding your point on the effect of proper quick release provisions on
collision impacts, the extent of any impact damage is determined by a
constellation of variables, over only a few of which you get much choice:
1. You can't have a shoe attachment which fails to resist all forces
normally encountered in rowing, & you can't therefore have shoes which
break away when a certain force level is exceeded. Indeed, to do so
would be to put boat protection ahead of rower's safety, since sometimes
a rower may really need to apply exception forces to the stretcher
without losing engagement.
2. If at frontstops you'll probably impose lower forces on the boat in
a head-on impact than if at backstops, since your legs are bent & will
tend then to straighten out involuntarily. At backstops if your feet
don't come free you are very rigidly coupled to your boat as you cannot
move further to the bow. In that latter case there will be more damage
if you were just about to try to stop the boat & therefore pulling your
toes upwards, but maybe less damage if you had no forewarning - when it
is probable that your feet will not prevent your heels from lifting &
the shoes (with proper "quick release"!) from freeing them.
With regard to Martin's final paragraph - if the shoe heel is still
attached to the stretcher by a heel cord, then I would expect that cord
to pull the shoe straight off your foot.
On Thomas's thoughts - while it might be handy to be able to move shoes
quickly to other boats, if you retain the heel cord for meaningful quick
release of rower from shoe in any emergency, then you must detach this
from one stretcher and re-attach it to the next stretcher. That sounds,
given the over-casual approach of rowers & clubs to shoe safety & the
subject of this current thread, I think that is most likely to be a sure
prescription for rowers not bothering to reconnect heel cord restraints.
Convenience would then have trumped essential safety.
carl
Sep 9, 2015, 8:52:41 AM9/9/15
to
On 09/09/2015 13:12, Henry Law wrote:
> If someone from BAT Logic is reading this, would they please suggest how
> they are going to cope with this apparent problem? Oh, and they might
> give some explanation for why they've posted videos showing dangerous
> behaviour.
Unfortunately, Henry, this problem is not apparent. It is absolutely real.
> If someone from BAT Logic is reading this, would they please suggest how
> they are going to cope with this apparent problem? Oh, and they might
> give some explanation for why they've posted videos showing dangerous
> behaviour.
In the normal way one might consider this a matter of careless
oversight. However, coupled with the fanciful & seemingly
unquantifiable claims made for this product, which on closer inspection
appear to verge on what some would call fruit-loopery, it looks more
like a deliberate trashing for commercial gain of one of the basic
elements of rower safety.
That impression can only be removed by the company concerned promptly
addressing the flaws discussed in this thread. It might not be a bad
idea for concerned individuals to make appropriate representations to
the company & to their rowing NGB - but holding breath meanwhile might
be prejudicial to health.
Carol
Sep 9, 2015, 9:07:51 AM9/9/15
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I think all of the previous posters are correct. The shoes are not designed for quick release under any circumstances. It's just so that you can switch shoes more readily (or use the same shoes on your erg...they make an adaptor plate that fits on a C2 erg).
The fact that the videos don't show the time it takes to do the heel cords as well seems a pretty callous disregard of rower safety as well as misleading advertising.
Cat
martin...@gmail.com
Sep 9, 2015, 10:51:14 AM9/9/15
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Hi Carl,
I can see clearly how if the sole of the shoe by the balls of the feet are attached to a boat then the heel restraint would/should allow the foot to be pulled out due to the relative direction of pull i.e. perpendicular to the sole
I was more concerned if the pull is parallel to the sole e.g. if you twisted your foot trying to escape and whether the heel restraint would still work? Or would the heel restraint eventually become perpendicular and work as intended? this could equally apply if the bolts holding the shoes on came out unintentionally.
I'm trying to visualise this but not successfully :) so patience is appreciated
I can see clearly how if the sole of the shoe by the balls of the feet are attached to a boat then the heel restraint would/should allow the foot to be pulled out due to the relative direction of pull i.e. perpendicular to the sole
I was more concerned if the pull is parallel to the sole e.g. if you twisted your foot trying to escape and whether the heel restraint would still work? Or would the heel restraint eventually become perpendicular and work as intended? this could equally apply if the bolts holding the shoes on came out unintentionally.
I'm trying to visualise this but not successfully :) so patience is appreciated
carl
Sep 9, 2015, 11:34:53 AM9/9/15
to
resolving themselves in one's favour - 'tho I haven't thought too deeply
about it over this cuppa. Given the distance between the centre of the
body & the shoe, I'd guess that the relatively short shoe & heel cord
will at some early stage end up appropriately aligned to pull the heel
of the shoe away from the foot.
At the least you'll have broken the semi-rigid coupling of foot with
boat which makes capsize survival tricky or impossible when using shoes
with neither heel restraint nor other effective passive release system.
Does that make sense?
Cheers -
Henning Lippke
Sep 9, 2015, 2:48:12 PM9/9/15
to
> The Nike shoes have a really well designed pull handle (not sure what it's really called), so if you capsize, you just yank like all other systems.
us to see and someone else to give assistance if you fail to release by
pulling the "handle".
e...@batlogic.net
Sep 10, 2015, 4:56:50 AM9/10/15
to
Great that there is such interest and debate about new products. Just for clarity, a lot of the thread talks about the original version of the ShoePlate Pro which was a non moveable fixture between the foot stretcher and shoe. After years of research this product went into boats in 2008 and was recognised for performance and injury prevention qualities. At BAT Logic we have based all our products on sound sports medicine and biomechanics research, many of our staff have medical or sports science backgrounds and that lies at the core of what we do. This has been recognised by our many users and tested by many of the national teams who choose and trust our equipment.
Rowers using this product have won over 210+ World level medals including 4 Olympic Gold and 3 Silver.
Our new ShoePlate Pro QuickRelease product was in response to so many schools, clubs and colleges wishing to use this system with an easy method for changing seats, boats and for use on the Ergo. The QuickRelease has been fully approved for use in boats by FISA and the ErgAdaptor is fully endorsed by Concept2.
The products continue to be fully supported by elites, with crews from over 17 nations racing with BAT Logic at the Aiguebelette World Championships last week. Many of these chose to use the new ShoePlate Pro QuickRelease, including the Australians and Canadians. In addition, the largest boat club in the world, Community Rowing Inc., had the system fitted in every boat, as have a number of schools since the QuickRelease launch earlier this year.
In the case of capsizing, the feet are simply removed as normal with the shoe release strap. Heel ties are required as with normal shoes and this is stated in our FAQ's section. It is clear in the videos from the changes of angle that not all actions are shown before the boat is rowed off. (Eg heel ties / putting on the shoes / putting the oars in etc.).
We look forward to more discussion as this can only be good for the future of the sport we love.
Cheers,
Dr Ed Wittich
BAT Logic Team
http://batlogic.net/faqs-2/
https://youtu.be/WvxxTbQOVMk
www.batlogic.net
Rowers using this product have won over 210+ World level medals including 4 Olympic Gold and 3 Silver.
Our new ShoePlate Pro QuickRelease product was in response to so many schools, clubs and colleges wishing to use this system with an easy method for changing seats, boats and for use on the Ergo. The QuickRelease has been fully approved for use in boats by FISA and the ErgAdaptor is fully endorsed by Concept2.
The products continue to be fully supported by elites, with crews from over 17 nations racing with BAT Logic at the Aiguebelette World Championships last week. Many of these chose to use the new ShoePlate Pro QuickRelease, including the Australians and Canadians. In addition, the largest boat club in the world, Community Rowing Inc., had the system fitted in every boat, as have a number of schools since the QuickRelease launch earlier this year.
In the case of capsizing, the feet are simply removed as normal with the shoe release strap. Heel ties are required as with normal shoes and this is stated in our FAQ's section. It is clear in the videos from the changes of angle that not all actions are shown before the boat is rowed off. (Eg heel ties / putting on the shoes / putting the oars in etc.).
We look forward to more discussion as this can only be good for the future of the sport we love.
Cheers,
Dr Ed Wittich
BAT Logic Team
http://batlogic.net/faqs-2/
https://youtu.be/WvxxTbQOVMk
www.batlogic.net
e...@batlogic.net
Sep 10, 2015, 4:59:25 AM9/10/15
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Gregory Smith
Sep 10, 2015, 12:15:24 PM9/10/15
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The intent of the video is to show how simple and easy it is to move from the erg to a 1x and isn't it somewhat misleading to edit out some of the steps required to make that change? I certainly agree that the quick release is hugely faster than screwing and unscrewing shoes, but attaching the heel ties is a required part of the process and the video leaves the impression (albeit unintentionally) that these steps are not done or required with your system.
This was even more confusing for me because the other quick release system in the market, the Shimano SRD system does not require heel straps, I think it likely that your customers would be confused about whether or not they are needed since you video seemly contradicts your FAQ.
Carol
Sep 10, 2015, 4:17:31 PM9/10/15
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I don't understand your comment. The shoes have the same mechanism by which every other shoe in our boat house is opened in the case of emergency. They all have heel ties and some sort of ties that pull the velcro straps open. The Nike batLogic ones seem a bit better than the H2O, Vespoli, other shoes I've used in our boats.
Did I describe it incorrectly? Is there something else that I should be looking for in terms of my own safety?
Thanks,
Carol
Emm
Sep 11, 2015, 1:45:06 AM9/11/15
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On 10.09.2015 22:17, Carol wrote:
I agree with Carol, the Nike shoes have a very nice "one hand" pull
mechanism, useful whether you have the BatLogic plate or not (I am using
the red Addidas shoes with the BatLogic plate which is also a good
combination and they do not have such a "one hand flap" for quick
opening of the rowing shoes.)
What is really needed for any rowing shoe which is meant to be swapped
from one boat to another, or from boat to erg, is something much smarter
than laces to tie up the heel restraint. This is what rowers will not do
- and this needs to be emphasised on the advertising videos, because all
the national teams using BatLogic will have enough personnel taking care
of their set-up and safety, not the average rower.
I am surprised, to see that after all these years, there is nothing else
than laces heel restraints, which I am never sure if I tie them with the
correct length. Isn't there really anything else, that would be quick to
take off and on?
I agree with Carol, the Nike shoes have a very nice "one hand" pull
mechanism, useful whether you have the BatLogic plate or not (I am using
the red Addidas shoes with the BatLogic plate which is also a good
combination and they do not have such a "one hand flap" for quick
opening of the rowing shoes.)
What is really needed for any rowing shoe which is meant to be swapped
from one boat to another, or from boat to erg, is something much smarter
than laces to tie up the heel restraint. This is what rowers will not do
- and this needs to be emphasised on the advertising videos, because all
the national teams using BatLogic will have enough personnel taking care
of their set-up and safety, not the average rower.
I am surprised, to see that after all these years, there is nothing else
than laces heel restraints, which I am never sure if I tie them with the
correct length. Isn't there really anything else, that would be quick to
take off and on?
Rob Purves
Sep 11, 2015, 6:34:13 AM9/11/15
to
I am disturbed that the BatLogic marketing material (including especially the videos) does not include a highly visible warning that, just like all other rowing shoes that do not have a built-in safety release, they are unsafe unless fitted with effective heel restraints of appropriate length and strength. In my view, burying that information in FAQs is asking for trouble.
For private boats, where shoes are seldom changed, there is no difficulty with permanent restraints, made of suitable material and installed once, at the proper length (as in Carl's boats).
But for club boats, where the shoes take a hammering, need replacement relatively often and are more likely to be moved around, I have always wondered why we put up with such a heath-robinson system for heel restraints - over the years I have seen everything from bits of shoelace to cable-ties, with various different attachment points to the boat and the shoe.
In my view it would be preferable to have a standard three part system, consisting of (a) a ring-bolt fitting on the footplate (either fitted by the manufacturer or as an easy 'upgrade'); (b) a ring securely attached to the heel of the shoe (as presently fitted to safe rowing shoes); and (c) a standard-length loop to connect the ring on the heel to the ring on the footplate. The loop should be made of appropriate material and should have a connector with a locking mechanism (see e.g. a screw-gate carabiner or similar). The idea would be that shoe and plate could be disconnected if needed, but the connection would remain at the right length when reconnected and would be secure when locked closed.
Perhaps those of us (including me) with hamstrings as flexible as a steel bar would complain that a standard-length restraint did not allow our heels to rise up far enough at the catch, but in my experience that is better accommodated by having the shoe less tightly fastened (which is good practice in any event).
Maybe BatLogic could expend some of their design ingenuity on such a system. Maybe then safe and convenient heel restraints would be a legitimate selling point to complement quick-change shoes, not some inconvenience to be buried in FAQs.
Rob
For private boats, where shoes are seldom changed, there is no difficulty with permanent restraints, made of suitable material and installed once, at the proper length (as in Carl's boats).
But for club boats, where the shoes take a hammering, need replacement relatively often and are more likely to be moved around, I have always wondered why we put up with such a heath-robinson system for heel restraints - over the years I have seen everything from bits of shoelace to cable-ties, with various different attachment points to the boat and the shoe.
In my view it would be preferable to have a standard three part system, consisting of (a) a ring-bolt fitting on the footplate (either fitted by the manufacturer or as an easy 'upgrade'); (b) a ring securely attached to the heel of the shoe (as presently fitted to safe rowing shoes); and (c) a standard-length loop to connect the ring on the heel to the ring on the footplate. The loop should be made of appropriate material and should have a connector with a locking mechanism (see e.g. a screw-gate carabiner or similar). The idea would be that shoe and plate could be disconnected if needed, but the connection would remain at the right length when reconnected and would be secure when locked closed.
Perhaps those of us (including me) with hamstrings as flexible as a steel bar would complain that a standard-length restraint did not allow our heels to rise up far enough at the catch, but in my experience that is better accommodated by having the shoe less tightly fastened (which is good practice in any event).
Maybe BatLogic could expend some of their design ingenuity on such a system. Maybe then safe and convenient heel restraints would be a legitimate selling point to complement quick-change shoes, not some inconvenience to be buried in FAQs.
Rob
carl
Sep 14, 2015, 8:54:41 AM9/14/15
to
On 10/09/2015 09:56, e...@batlogic.net wrote:
> In the case of capsizing, the feet are simply removed as normal with the shoe release strap. Heel ties are required as with normal shoes and this is stated in our FAQ's section.
Ed - that is exactly the kind of statement which we who know intimately
> In the case of capsizing, the feet are simply removed as normal with the shoe release strap. Heel ties are required as with normal shoes and this is stated in our FAQ's section.
the realities of accidental capsize find not just unhelpful but highly
dangerous.
The shocked, gasping or injured capsized rower is completely incapable
of reaching down to free the shoe from its mountings. Try watching, as
I have, a sculler capsize having been rowing under full pressure & then
be unable to free his feet - it's a desperate predicament. That
particular sculler was saved only by the swift response of the umpire's
launch. And try talking with others who have been lucky to survived
being similarly trapped by their feet in inverted shells
In the 1980s Stampfli for a short while offered a shoe release system
with a catch at the toe which they coloured red "so it could be seen
underwater", but fortunately it didn't go into production.
You are marketing a product intended to enhancing rower performance, but
it occupies a safety critical part of the rower/boat system & if, in any
way, it or your accompanying instructions encourage fundamentally unsafe
practice, then the "medical or sports science backgrounds" of your staff
may count as nothing in a legal claim following the drowning death of a
capsized sculler.
I read your literature with growing concern - hence my original &
carefully-worded posting. This weekend in Hazewinkel I quietly
observed, although I was not myself approached by your representative,
the difficulty/near impossibility in our own boats of combining a heel
restraint cord with the installation of your equipment. And I have now
read Rob Purves concerned comments in this thread. I would respectfully
suggest that Rob speaks on legal matters with greater authority than
most of us & this his words merit careful attention from the wise.
The replacement of clogs by bolted-in shoes resulted in a number of
fatalities the '70s & '80s, yet still we have fatalities & narrow
escapes where rowers are entrapped by missing or inadequate heel cord
installations. We even had the farce of 2 guys entrapped in a capsized
pair at the end of their World Championships heat in 2006 after they'd
decided to do without heel restraints & FISA failed to check on this
simply stupid omission before they went afloat.
Anything which leads rowers, however unintentionally, to neglect the
vital importance of spontaneous, _passive_ foot release from an inverted
shell does a grave disservice to our sport, regardless of the academic &
other qualifications of its producer. A responsible equipment
manufacturer will, I trust, take immediate steps to rectify this & will
not seek to defend the clearly imperfect status quo.
Rob Purves
Sep 14, 2015, 10:39:36 AM9/14/15
to
I was prompted by the posts here to dig out BatLogic FAQ on heel restraints (which was fairly easy to find on the website). This is what it says:
"Do I still need to use heel ties and how will I release in a roll-in?
Yes, heel ties are mandatory for racing and the QuickRelease function is for convenience in swapping seats/boats and onto the ergo, it is not a safety feature.
To exit the boat you must still use the release strap on your rowing shoes, just like you would with a standard foot board system.
There are many different sorts of heel ties from shoelaces to clips and we recommend you fit these before every row for safety."
The clear suggestion is that while heel restraints are 'mandatory for racing', they are otherwise only 'recommended' .
Contrast with the current BR 'RowSafe' requirement:
"All boats where 'fitted shoes' are employed must have effective heel restraints.
These must be properly adjusted (the heel must be prevented
from rising higher than the lowest fixed point of the shoe) and
in working order. Likewise, the foot release from any other
type of fitment that may be used must be self-acting and not
require the intervention of the athlete or a rescuer."
I well know there are problems with defining the height to which the heel can safely rise by reference to the (arbitrary) lowest fixed point etc (why not just specify the max rise in mm)? But the basic point is clear. Effective self-acting heel restraints are a must, not a 'recommendation'.
Good grief
R
"Do I still need to use heel ties and how will I release in a roll-in?
Yes, heel ties are mandatory for racing and the QuickRelease function is for convenience in swapping seats/boats and onto the ergo, it is not a safety feature.
To exit the boat you must still use the release strap on your rowing shoes, just like you would with a standard foot board system.
There are many different sorts of heel ties from shoelaces to clips and we recommend you fit these before every row for safety."
The clear suggestion is that while heel restraints are 'mandatory for racing', they are otherwise only 'recommended' .
Contrast with the current BR 'RowSafe' requirement:
"All boats where 'fitted shoes' are employed must have effective heel restraints.
These must be properly adjusted (the heel must be prevented
from rising higher than the lowest fixed point of the shoe) and
in working order. Likewise, the foot release from any other
type of fitment that may be used must be self-acting and not
require the intervention of the athlete or a rescuer."
I well know there are problems with defining the height to which the heel can safely rise by reference to the (arbitrary) lowest fixed point etc (why not just specify the max rise in mm)? But the basic point is clear. Effective self-acting heel restraints are a must, not a 'recommendation'.
Good grief
R
andymck...@gmail.com
Sep 14, 2015, 10:52:07 AM9/14/15
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So a little editing will improve it:
"Yes, heel ties are mandatory when on water and the QuickRelease function is for convenience in swapping seats/boats and onto the ergo, it is not a safety feature.
To exit the boat you must still use the release strap on your rowing shoes, just like you would with a standard foot board system.
gsl...@gmail.com
Sep 14, 2015, 7:39:19 PM9/14/15
to
On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 7:52:07 AM UTC-7, andymck...@gmail.com wrote:
> you must still use the release strap on your rowing shoes, just like you would with a standard foot board system.
There is nothing about these shoes that are inherently more dangerous than any other shoe if installed properly (i.e. with a proper heal tie).
> you must still use the release strap on your rowing shoes, just like you would with a standard foot board system.
What Bat Logic needs to do is add a system for quickly attaching the heal tie. It would be simple and cheap.
I always view the release strap as something to be used at the dock. Do people really have shoes so tight they can't pull out without the release strap?
Personally I only fasten the Velcro when the shoes are big, and I instinctively check that I can easily pull my heals out every time I get in a boat.
carl
Sep 14, 2015, 7:45:34 PM9/14/15
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On 15/09/2015 00:39, gsl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Do people really have shoes so tight they can't pull out without the release strap?
Yes.
> Do people really have shoes so tight they can't pull out without the release strap?
David Cormack
Sep 15, 2015, 2:39:54 AM9/15/15
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I think there is some confusion here about the bat logic foot plate and the Nike omada shoe.
I ended a 15 year career of not falling out of rowing boats last sunday, when I opened my gate while slightly further from the slip than I thought. Both myself and my (unimpressed) pairs partner are fans of tightly strapped shoes. We were both equipped with the blue Nike omada shoes and both popped allowing easy release.
I ended a 15 year career of not falling out of rowing boats last sunday, when I opened my gate while slightly further from the slip than I thought. Both myself and my (unimpressed) pairs partner are fans of tightly strapped shoes. We were both equipped with the blue Nike omada shoes and both popped allowing easy release.
carl
Sep 15, 2015, 7:03:47 AM9/15/15
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On 15/09/2015 07:39, David Cormack wrote:
> I think there is some confusion here about the bat logic foot plate and the Nike omada shoe.
>
> I ended a 15 year career of not falling out of rowing boats last sunday, when I opened my gate while slightly further from the slip than I thought. Both myself and my (unimpressed) pairs partner are fans of tightly strapped shoes. We were both equipped with the blue Nike omada shoes and both popped allowing easy release.
>
You waited a long time for that bath ;)
> I think there is some confusion here about the bat logic foot plate and the Nike omada shoe.
>
> I ended a 15 year career of not falling out of rowing boats last sunday, when I opened my gate while slightly further from the slip than I thought. Both myself and my (unimpressed) pairs partner are fans of tightly strapped shoes. We were both equipped with the blue Nike omada shoes and both popped allowing easy release.
>
When you say "popped", do you mean that your feet came out of the shoes
entirely without your manual intervention?
It is important to understand (although I'm not doubting that you do,
others may not) that the deadly combination in rowing footwear is the
close-fitting (for length) shoe which is also tightly strapped. Your
foot bones are incompressible, lengthwise. When the heel lifts, if the
toe end can move no further into the toebox then the unstretchable shoe
sole progressively pulls the shoe heel ever tighter against your own
heel, & this effect increases as the heel rises. The amount of heel
rise before the heel cord tightens then determines whether your foot
will still extract or will instead jam immovably into the shoe.
In short, passive quick release of feet from shoes is not a function of
shoe attachment or shoe design but of a) effective heel restraint b)
length thereof (we take that as not more than 50mm), and then it depends
on the looseness or otherwise of the shoes' fit on your feet.
And again, for the benefit of those new to this discussion, let me
underline the fact that for the inverted rower to whom help is not
immediately available the Velcro-held flap over the instep is worthless
as, after capsize, you won't (except in exceptional circumstances) be
able to reach it (whatever you might generally suppose & arm-chair
experts might tell you). In which case you will probably drown.
I am distressed by the casual disregards & smug naivete of the widely
prevailing but uninformed view that heel restraints are a fuss about
nothing. Particularly so when anyone claims that we have just to reach
for a release clip to free the shoe or to rip open the Velcro-held
instep strap. And in those cases where there are up to 3 straps, that
kind of manoeuvre becomes even less feasible.
Cheers -
Lucy
Sep 15, 2015, 5:28:58 PM9/15/15
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If anyone needs further convincing that having to pull velcro to release themselves is potentially fatal, let me tell you a tale from a few weeks ago.
A Trunks and Arms ParaRower at our club went out in his 1x as usual, but after an alteration to his prosthetic legs had removed his back support for the first time to give him a longer stroke, an extra waist strap had been added to the standard "legally" required set-up to stop him falling backwards should his "stubbies" detach.
Long story short, the wing rigger came off unexpectedly - yes, just came off, the "quick release" cams in place of bolts failed, not the first Wintech boat at Tees this has happened to and another story for another day - with the predictable result that he capsized,fortunately only feet from the pontoon.
Para strapping is designed so you simply pull one end to rip it open, and both TA and AS rowers practice this action regularly over and above their regular capsize drills. But in the heat of the moment our lad couldn't find the end to release himself and very nearly drowned in front of his poor, helpless coach. He got out just as said coach was ripping his clothes off, but this was a strap across his waist he had practiced removing. Imagine, then, trying to do the same thing while reaching for your feet.
James said afterwards it was the most terrifying thing he'd experienced since losing his legs in Afghanistan. Given what he's been through already, that's one hell of a statement.
(ChrisA, you may remember him, he raced at Peterborough and you put a picture of his abandoned legs on Twitter!)
A Trunks and Arms ParaRower at our club went out in his 1x as usual, but after an alteration to his prosthetic legs had removed his back support for the first time to give him a longer stroke, an extra waist strap had been added to the standard "legally" required set-up to stop him falling backwards should his "stubbies" detach.
Long story short, the wing rigger came off unexpectedly - yes, just came off, the "quick release" cams in place of bolts failed, not the first Wintech boat at Tees this has happened to and another story for another day - with the predictable result that he capsized,fortunately only feet from the pontoon.
Para strapping is designed so you simply pull one end to rip it open, and both TA and AS rowers practice this action regularly over and above their regular capsize drills. But in the heat of the moment our lad couldn't find the end to release himself and very nearly drowned in front of his poor, helpless coach. He got out just as said coach was ripping his clothes off, but this was a strap across his waist he had practiced removing. Imagine, then, trying to do the same thing while reaching for your feet.
James said afterwards it was the most terrifying thing he'd experienced since losing his legs in Afghanistan. Given what he's been through already, that's one hell of a statement.
(ChrisA, you may remember him, he raced at Peterborough and you put a picture of his abandoned legs on Twitter!)
philip...@gmail.com
Sep 27, 2015, 3:49:12 PM9/27/15
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I use these and find it very quick to tie the heal restraints on before clipping the shoes into place. I've used them on the standard stretches in Yanosek, Stampfli and Empacher boats.
I'm not sure why the shoe plates would make it harder to achieve this on your stretchers? I think I have seen Nike Shoes in your boats and as essentially they are just shims I can't picture the problem.
I was surprised at Hazewinkel when one of the Umpires bypassed checking my shoes, because they were quick release so there is clearly some confusion which concerns me as a safety officer. But then I didn't see a single person in a powerboat with a life jacket or a kill cord and apparently that's OK.
I bought these with the full understanding of what their benefits are, and think they are a great product. As long as people understand the purpose of them I see no problem.
P
I'm not sure why the shoe plates would make it harder to achieve this on your stretchers? I think I have seen Nike Shoes in your boats and as essentially they are just shims I can't picture the problem.
I was surprised at Hazewinkel when one of the Umpires bypassed checking my shoes, because they were quick release so there is clearly some confusion which concerns me as a safety officer. But then I didn't see a single person in a powerboat with a life jacket or a kill cord and apparently that's OK.
I bought these with the full understanding of what their benefits are, and think they are a great product. As long as people understand the purpose of them I see no problem.
P
carl
Sep 27, 2015, 5:50:08 PM9/27/15
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On 27/09/2015 20:49, philip...@gmail.com wrote:
> I use these and find it very quick to tie the heal restraints on before clipping the shoes into place. I've used them on the standard stretches in Yanosek, Stampfli and Empacher boats.
>
> I'm not sure why the shoe plates would make it harder to achieve this on your stretchers? I think I have seen Nike Shoes in your boats and as essentially they are just shims I can't picture the problem.
>
> I was surprised at Hazewinkel when one of the Umpires bypassed checking my shoes, because they were quick release so there is clearly some confusion which concerns me as a safety officer. But then I didn't see a single person in a powerboat with a life jacket or a kill cord and apparently that's OK.
>
> I bought these with the full understanding of what their benefits are, and think they are a great product. As long as people understand the purpose of them I see no problem.
>
> P
Some most interesting points, Philip, and well made. Thank you.
> I use these and find it very quick to tie the heal restraints on before clipping the shoes into place. I've used them on the standard stretches in Yanosek, Stampfli and Empacher boats.
>
> I'm not sure why the shoe plates would make it harder to achieve this on your stretchers? I think I have seen Nike Shoes in your boats and as essentially they are just shims I can't picture the problem.
>
> I was surprised at Hazewinkel when one of the Umpires bypassed checking my shoes, because they were quick release so there is clearly some confusion which concerns me as a safety officer. But then I didn't see a single person in a powerboat with a life jacket or a kill cord and apparently that's OK.
>
> I bought these with the full understanding of what their benefits are, and think they are a great product. As long as people understand the purpose of them I see no problem.
>
> P
The fact that, each time you move shoes, you must re-tie the heel
restraints is, to me, unacceptable. We make a point of heel restraints
being fixed & irremovable, just as the seat belts in your car cannot be
extracted and inserted into other vehicles. That you may do this well &
re-tie those cords securely does nothing to encourage me to believe that
others, perhaps the majority of rowers, will do likewise. It is anyway
axiomatic that proper safety devices cannot be defeated or disconnected
at will since that inevitably leads to abuse.
Most stretcher designs (other than those from my own company) carry one
redundant component, the shoe plate, & that is at the root of this shoe
transference problem. Because the shoes are attached to a separate shoo
plate while the heel restraint cords are attached to the stretcher, you
cannot move the shoes without disconnecting the heel cords. Our system
has always mounted the shoes straight onto a full stretcher board, with
the heel restraint cords connecting to that same board, yet the shoes
remain fully adjustable for both height & rake. We do this for 2
reasons: it is simpler & it is safer. But rowing likes wearing blinkers
& ignoring the downright obvious, so the technically & logically
redundant shoe plate is seen everywhere.
Yes, you'll have seen Nike shoes in some of our boats. My problem is
not with the shoes but with the apparent interference between the
"shims" as you call them & the need to fix the heel cords. But I fail
to see how what you term "understanding the purpose" of the shims helps
in ensuring the safety of the rower?
When we see rowers & coaches widely prepared to train all year with
defective or missing heel cords, & then to fudge them for regattas or
even to bitch on inspection when their own installations are found to be
worthless, I cannot see any possible grounds for a "trust the rower"
attitude to shoe safety. Rowers have died from being unable to get free
from capsized shells. Our problem is that, unless you've either
experienced a capsize & been unable to free your feet, or seen this
happen, or spoken with someone to whom it has happened, it might be hard
to appreciate the importance of guaranteed passive foot release.
I note too your reference to shoes "with quick release" being passed on
inspection in Hazewinkel. Do you mean shoes with Velcro-fastened straps
across the insteps? If so, I share your concern - that's deeply
alarming as such straps are in no way a form of emergency quick release,
simply a handy way to close, adjust & undo when boating. In which case
which tie-wearing idiot told those inspectors that this was a
satisfactory alternative to fixed heel cords? And how clueless were
those inspectors in their turn?
andymck...@gmail.com
Sep 28, 2015, 7:55:09 AM9/28/15
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We have some boats where the footplates (amazingly!) have the same hole spacing so we can swap shoes around (but the boats have different widths, so we can't swap stretchers), and currently this means untying/retying the strings. My problem with this is it means there isn't always consistency in tying the strings,and if they are properly knotted they are hard to untie, so actually some sort of quick release might improve safety - it would need checking, but better a correctly adjusted quick release than a poorly adjusted knotted string? I was looking at little mini karabiners, which are both spring loaded and screwed, so seem fairly fail-safe, but I'm uncertain re strength and durability.
We have tried adjustable shoes, but its hard to get ones that span 'real' ranges. In our more recreational boats we use clogs, but in the finer boats that hasn't been a popular option.
Andy
carl
Sep 28, 2015, 10:06:37 AM9/28/15
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On 28/09/2015 12:55, andymck...@gmail.com wrote:
> So what's the best solution for the club that faces the practical issue of needing to sap round shoes quite a bit, because we are recreational, and quite often boat crews with shoe sizes from 4 to 14 in the same boat? Mostly we do that by squeezing the big footed (males) until they squeal, and letting the small footed (females) come out of their shoes every third stroke.
>
> We have some boats where the footplates (amazingly!) have the same hole spacing so we can swap shoes around (but the boats have different widths, so we can't swap stretchers), and currently this means untying/retying the strings. My problem with this is it means there isn't always consistency in tying the strings,and if they are properly knotted they are hard to untie, so actually some sort of quick release might improve safety - it would need checking, but better a correctly adjusted quick release than a poorly adjusted knotted string? I was looking at little mini karabiners, which are both spring loaded and screwed, so seem fairly fail-safe, but I'm uncertain re strength and durability.
>
> We have tried adjustable shoes, but its hard to get ones that span 'real' ranges. In our more recreational boats we use clogs, but in the finer boats that hasn't been a popular option.
>
> Andy
I completely understand your club's problem, Andy. You are lumbered
> So what's the best solution for the club that faces the practical issue of needing to sap round shoes quite a bit, because we are recreational, and quite often boat crews with shoe sizes from 4 to 14 in the same boat? Mostly we do that by squeezing the big footed (males) until they squeal, and letting the small footed (females) come out of their shoes every third stroke.
>
> We have some boats where the footplates (amazingly!) have the same hole spacing so we can swap shoes around (but the boats have different widths, so we can't swap stretchers), and currently this means untying/retying the strings. My problem with this is it means there isn't always consistency in tying the strings,and if they are properly knotted they are hard to untie, so actually some sort of quick release might improve safety - it would need checking, but better a correctly adjusted quick release than a poorly adjusted knotted string? I was looking at little mini karabiners, which are both spring loaded and screwed, so seem fairly fail-safe, but I'm uncertain re strength and durability.
>
> We have tried adjustable shoes, but its hard to get ones that span 'real' ranges. In our more recreational boats we use clogs, but in the finer boats that hasn't been a popular option.
>
> Andy
with an inadequate compromise with a mix of incompatible systems but
without the means or incentive to resolve it once & for all. And in a
sense that sums up rowing - while it could & should be simpler, there
are too many pressures to continue to compromise.
Almost 3 decades back there was a meeting at the World Championships in
Denmark between FISA and equipment makers. A number of proposals for
improve interchangeability of fittings were discussed, & one that was
agreed was to standardise the separations of seat tracks on 3 values:
165mm, 230mm & 280mm. But it didn't happen.
The shoes problem arose initially from some rowers simply bolting track
shoes into their boats in place of the then-universal clogs. The
reasons given were a desire for a closer fit &, for some, more heel lift
than the heel traps on fixed clogs allowed. One unintended consequence
was a significant number of under-reported rower fatalities as the need
for passive escape from the shoes had not been considered. Tell someone
that what they are using is somehow cramping their performance & they
become dissatisfied with what had hitherto worked fine & are ready to
change - although at that time there were no commercial interests
pushing the case &, had the subject drawn more attention, innovators
might well have met that perceived need without endangering lives.
Then rowers wanted also to adjust foot height in the boat. At a time
when shoes were bolted to fixed stretchers it seemed logical to add in
the metal shoe plate, still without heel restraints. Heel restraints
came later, but grudgingly - often more window-dressing (bits of shoe
lace not even attached) than functional.
Enough of history. If you now want full shoe interchangeability it
makes sense, IMHO, to switch from the usual shoe-plate arrangement
(plate attached to shoes but separate from the stretcher itself) to
stretcher-board-attached shoes with integral heel restraint cords. Then
you can move the shoes-plus-board to whichever boat requires them & do
so without messing with the heel restraints which, I firmly believe,
should be permanent, unbreakable fixtures.
Yes, my firm is the only one to offer this kind of simpler system (as
far as I'm aware. For that I make no apologies as, no doubt, others
could do the same if they put their minds to it.
Cheers -
rolyb...@googlemail.com
Sep 29, 2015, 5:40:33 AM9/29/15
to
Andy,
Your problem is that people want to feel that they are serious athletes using high specification equipment but they don't want to go to the trouble and expense of doing that properly.
My response is that you should make each boat appropriate to the rowing you intend to do in it. So fine boats are fitted with shoes, others have heel traps and straps. Clogs are good if you use the same ones regularly, but if you have different types people still have the wrong foot size or footwear.
Then you want to make the heel fixing as easy to change as possible. If the restraint is held with a screw you need a screwdriver to change over, better to drill all the stretchers so that the cords can be tied easily (people will not realise and still tie the cords in silly ways, but at least that is now easily corrected. Fit all the boats with slotted footplates so that the variety of shoe hole types fit anywhere.
This is not the engineering correct solution that Carl would like, but it is a real world approach.
Also get the most experienced rowers to use the straps and have them tell everyone that they much prefer to row in their own sweat, that their own shoes are more comfortable. Change perception.
Roly
Your problem is that people want to feel that they are serious athletes using high specification equipment but they don't want to go to the trouble and expense of doing that properly.
My response is that you should make each boat appropriate to the rowing you intend to do in it. So fine boats are fitted with shoes, others have heel traps and straps. Clogs are good if you use the same ones regularly, but if you have different types people still have the wrong foot size or footwear.
Then you want to make the heel fixing as easy to change as possible. If the restraint is held with a screw you need a screwdriver to change over, better to drill all the stretchers so that the cords can be tied easily (people will not realise and still tie the cords in silly ways, but at least that is now easily corrected. Fit all the boats with slotted footplates so that the variety of shoe hole types fit anywhere.
This is not the engineering correct solution that Carl would like, but it is a real world approach.
Also get the most experienced rowers to use the straps and have them tell everyone that they much prefer to row in their own sweat, that their own shoes are more comfortable. Change perception.
Roly
Henry Law
Sep 29, 2015, 7:35:40 AM9/29/15
to
On 28/09/15 12:55, andymck...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was looking at little mini karabiners, which are both spring loaded and screwed, so seem fairly fail-safe, but I'm uncertain re strength and durability.
I take your point about strength and durability: many of these little
> I was looking at little mini karabiners, which are both spring loaded and screwed, so seem fairly fail-safe, but I'm uncertain re strength and durability.
Krabs are really intended only for keyrings or whatever. But that
aside, does this approach have merit? Carl?
The strings to the Krab on both sides could be inextricably tightly
knotted (heat-sealed, better still) and of the right length on all boats
in the club and all shoes; then all the rower ("all", he says ...) would
need to do when swapping shoes would be to clip in the heel releases.
Carl's design for shoe mounting and heel release is indeed excellent;
but we have to be realistic and take account of the nature of the
existing fleet.
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
carl
Sep 29, 2015, 12:46:19 PM9/29/15
to
solution was also the real world approach. Silly old me ;) Is it
really so much better to have a variety of incompatible stretcher
systems with
which to wrestle between outings?
I only asked ....
andymck...@gmail.com
Sep 30, 2015, 9:51:13 AM9/30/15
to
Isn't 'You can have cheap, fast or high quality, choose any two of the above' an engineering aphorism?
Unfortunately in our club cheap is assumed, and fast vs high quality is whether I bodge it (I guess a cardboard/duct tape footplate would be very safe, as it would dissolve to mush when the boat capsizes), or my talented craftsman colleague does it and it gets put in queue behind the 20 other things I ask him to do.
Andy
christoph...@gmail.com
Sep 30, 2015, 4:09:03 PM9/30/15
to
I don't know if Carl will approve my solution, but I share a sculling boat with someone who has much bigger feet than me and we each have our own shoes on a footplate. The heal restraint is permanently attached to the stretcher and has a Carabiner Clip Spring Snap Hook which clips on and off the back of the shoe easily.
carl
Sep 30, 2015, 7:43:37 PM9/30/15
to
well-engineered option, available at a price that should be affordable
to you and your members. And we are working towards something even
better. Watch this space.
FWIW, I suspect that your members tend to assume that the maintenance
and replacement of club equipment is "someone else's problem"? Yet I
guess that those same folk have fairly snazzy phones on costly
contracts, quite decent cars, live in houses and don't go barefoot or
naked except in the showers (for the heating of which the club doubtless
pays). Think how much more they'd enjoy their rowing if they chipped in
for replacement slides, wheels and shoes - & even stretchers - every few
years. Just like those who own their own sculling boats & blades have
to do - on top of paying rack fees.
I'm surprised that rowers, who'd bitch like mad if they had a gym
subscription and found the gym left like a tip, pay only a fraction of a
that fee to be members of a rowing club yet put up with rowing equipment
which is held together only by the sweat & concern of guys like yourself.
Cheers -
carl
Sep 30, 2015, 7:46:18 PM9/30/15
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On 30/09/2015 21:09, christoph...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't know if Carl will approve my solution, but I share a sculling boat with someone who has much bigger feet than me and we each have our own shoes on a footplate. The heal restraint is permanently attached to the stretcher and has a Carabiner Clip Spring Snap Hook which clips on and off the back of the shoe easily.
>
Yes, if it works with the stretcher & withstands a reasonable tug test,
> I don't know if Carl will approve my solution, but I share a sculling boat with someone who has much bigger feet than me and we each have our own shoes on a footplate. The heal restraint is permanently attached to the stretcher and has a Carabiner Clip Spring Snap Hook which clips on and off the back of the shoe easily.
>
then it should do fine.
madmar...@gmail.com
Oct 1, 2015, 7:36:07 AM10/1/15
to
On Thursday, 1 October 2015 07:43:37 UTC+8, carl wrote:
> FWIW, I suspect that your members tend to assume that the maintenance
> and replacement of club equipment is "someone else's problem"?
I believe that the term you are searching for is "Boat Fairies", as in "the Boat Fairies will fix that magically if you just put it back on the rack..."
> FWIW, I suspect that your members tend to assume that the maintenance
> and replacement of club equipment is "someone else's problem"?
andymck...@gmail.com
Oct 1, 2015, 11:16:32 AM10/1/15
to
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:43:37 AM UTC+1, carl wrote:
Carl
Well in 12 months time Goring Gap Boat Club will have a boathouse courtesy of careful saving, generous donors and Sport England. Yay!!!!! In 24 months we might have showers. Heating isn't even in the plans! At the moment we operate from an open field, racks made of scaffold, blades and life jackets in a garden shed emulating the leaning tower of Pisa, next to our portaloo. If you go barefoot you get a lot of mud between the toes (we were 60 cms below the 2014 flood mark....)
At the moment more or less every spare penny is going in the boathouse fund, and quite a few members have dipped into pockets generously, and haven't stinted their time fighting with grants and planning applications and all that entails, so I don't begrudge my odd afternoons of make do and mend.
Andy
Well in 12 months time Goring Gap Boat Club will have a boathouse courtesy of careful saving, generous donors and Sport England. Yay!!!!! In 24 months we might have showers. Heating isn't even in the plans! At the moment we operate from an open field, racks made of scaffold, blades and life jackets in a garden shed emulating the leaning tower of Pisa, next to our portaloo. If you go barefoot you get a lot of mud between the toes (we were 60 cms below the 2014 flood mark....)
At the moment more or less every spare penny is going in the boathouse fund, and quite a few members have dipped into pockets generously, and haven't stinted their time fighting with grants and planning applications and all that entails, so I don't begrudge my odd afternoons of make do and mend.
Andy
carl
Oct 1, 2015, 12:33:54 PM10/1/15
to
On 01/10/2015 16:16, andymck...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:43:37 AM UTC+1, carl wrote:
>> On 30/09/2015 14:51, andymckenzie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 5:46:19 PM UTC+1, carl wrote:
>>>> On 29/09/2015 10:40, rolyb...@googlemail.com wrote:
>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your problem is that people want to feel that they are serious athletes using high specification equipment but they don't want to go to the trouble and expense of doing that properly.
>>>>>
>>>>> My response is that you should make each boat appropriate to the rowing you intend to do in it. So fine boats are fitted with shoes, others have heel traps and straps. Clogs are good if you use the same ones regularly, but if you have different types people still have the wrong foot size or footwear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you want to make the heel fixing as easy to change as possible. If the restraint is held with a screw you need a screwdriver to change over, better to drill all the stretchers so that the cords can be tied easily (people will not realise and still tie the cords in silly ways, but at least that is now easily corrected. Fit all the boats with slotted footplates so that the variety of shoe hole types fit anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not the engineering correct solution that Carl would like, but it is a real world approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also get the most experienced rowers to use the straps and have them tell everyone that they much prefer to row in their own sweat, that their own shoes are more comfortable. Change perception.
>>>>> Roly
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there was I, stupidly supposing that the correct engineering
>>>> solution was also the real world approach. Silly old me ;) Is it
>>>> really so much better to have a variety of incompatible stretcher
>>>> systems with
>>>> which to wrestle between outings?
>>>>
>>>> I only asked ....
>>>> Carl
>>>
>>>
> On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:43:37 AM UTC+1, carl wrote:
>> On 30/09/2015 14:51, andymckenzie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 5:46:19 PM UTC+1, carl wrote:
>>>> On 29/09/2015 10:40, rolyb...@googlemail.com wrote:
>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your problem is that people want to feel that they are serious athletes using high specification equipment but they don't want to go to the trouble and expense of doing that properly.
>>>>>
>>>>> My response is that you should make each boat appropriate to the rowing you intend to do in it. So fine boats are fitted with shoes, others have heel traps and straps. Clogs are good if you use the same ones regularly, but if you have different types people still have the wrong foot size or footwear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you want to make the heel fixing as easy to change as possible. If the restraint is held with a screw you need a screwdriver to change over, better to drill all the stretchers so that the cords can be tied easily (people will not realise and still tie the cords in silly ways, but at least that is now easily corrected. Fit all the boats with slotted footplates so that the variety of shoe hole types fit anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not the engineering correct solution that Carl would like, but it is a real world approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also get the most experienced rowers to use the straps and have them tell everyone that they much prefer to row in their own sweat, that their own shoes are more comfortable. Change perception.
>>>>> Roly
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there was I, stupidly supposing that the correct engineering
>>>> solution was also the real world approach. Silly old me ;) Is it
>>>> really so much better to have a variety of incompatible stretcher
>>>> systems with
>>>> which to wrestle between outings?
>>>>
>>>> I only asked ....
>>>> Carl
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>> Isn't 'You can have cheap, fast or high quality, choose any two of the above' an engineering aphorism?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately in our club cheap is assumed, and fast vs high quality is whether I bodge it (I guess a cardboard/duct tape footplate would be very safe, as it would dissolve to mush when the boat capsizes), or my talented craftsman colleague does it and it gets put in queue behind the 20 other things I ask him to do.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> Andy - you are dead right! Except that we do already have a quite
>> well-engineered option, available at a price that should be affordable
>> to you and your members. And we are working towards something even
>> better. Watch this space.
>>
>> FWIW, I suspect that your members tend to assume that the maintenance
>> and replacement of club equipment is "someone else's problem"? Yet I
>> guess that those same folk have fairly snazzy phones on costly
>> contracts, quite decent cars, live in houses and don't go barefoot or
>> naked except in the showers (for the heating of which the club doubtless
>> pays). Think how much more they'd enjoy their rowing if they chipped in
>> for replacement slides, wheels and shoes - & even stretchers - every few
>> years. Just like those who own their own sculling boats & blades have
>> to do - on top of paying rack fees.
>>
>> I'm surprised that rowers, who'd bitch like mad if they had a gym
>> subscription and found the gym left like a tip, pay only a fraction of a
>> that fee to be members of a rowing club yet put up with rowing equipment
>> which is held together only by the sweat & concern of guys like yourself.
>>
>> Cheers -
>> Carl
>>
>
>>>
>>> Isn't 'You can have cheap, fast or high quality, choose any two of the above' an engineering aphorism?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately in our club cheap is assumed, and fast vs high quality is whether I bodge it (I guess a cardboard/duct tape footplate would be very safe, as it would dissolve to mush when the boat capsizes), or my talented craftsman colleague does it and it gets put in queue behind the 20 other things I ask him to do.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> Andy - you are dead right! Except that we do already have a quite
>> well-engineered option, available at a price that should be affordable
>> to you and your members. And we are working towards something even
>> better. Watch this space.
>>
>> FWIW, I suspect that your members tend to assume that the maintenance
>> and replacement of club equipment is "someone else's problem"? Yet I
>> guess that those same folk have fairly snazzy phones on costly
>> contracts, quite decent cars, live in houses and don't go barefoot or
>> naked except in the showers (for the heating of which the club doubtless
>> pays). Think how much more they'd enjoy their rowing if they chipped in
>> for replacement slides, wheels and shoes - & even stretchers - every few
>> years. Just like those who own their own sculling boats & blades have
>> to do - on top of paying rack fees.
>>
>> I'm surprised that rowers, who'd bitch like mad if they had a gym
>> subscription and found the gym left like a tip, pay only a fraction of a
>> that fee to be members of a rowing club yet put up with rowing equipment
>> which is held together only by the sweat & concern of guys like yourself.
>>
>> Cheers -
>> Carl
>>
>
> Carl
>
> Well in 12 months time Goring Gap Boat Club will have a boathouse courtesy of careful saving, generous donors and Sport England. Yay!!!!! In 24 months we might have showers. Heating isn't even in the plans! At the moment we operate from an open field, racks made of scaffold, blades and life jackets in a garden shed emulating the leaning tower of Pisa, next to our portaloo. If you go barefoot you get a lot of mud between the toes (we were 60 cms below the 2014 flood mark....)
>
> At the moment more or less every spare penny is going in the boathouse fund, and quite a few members have dipped into pockets generously, and haven't stinted their time fighting with grants and planning applications and all that entails, so I don't begrudge my odd afternoons of make do and mend.
>
> Andy
>
Then I unreservedly withdraw my ungracious comments, Andy, with
>
> Well in 12 months time Goring Gap Boat Club will have a boathouse courtesy of careful saving, generous donors and Sport England. Yay!!!!! In 24 months we might have showers. Heating isn't even in the plans! At the moment we operate from an open field, racks made of scaffold, blades and life jackets in a garden shed emulating the leaning tower of Pisa, next to our portaloo. If you go barefoot you get a lot of mud between the toes (we were 60 cms below the 2014 flood mark....)
>
> At the moment more or less every spare penny is going in the boathouse fund, and quite a few members have dipped into pockets generously, and haven't stinted their time fighting with grants and planning applications and all that entails, so I don't begrudge my odd afternoons of make do and mend.
>
> Andy
>
apologies to all concerned & congratulations on your manifold
achievements. And perhaps we can help you guys in the future.
But should that leaning tower of Pisa be immediately adjacent to the
Portaloo? Now where's me 'at & coat?
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