CRS - Again?
Carl Douglas
itself CRS-BHD Ltd. but not apparently registered as required under UK
company law. CRS itself had previously gone into liquidation. So had
its predecessor under the same management, 2KV. I recall that the
former CEO of CRS refused to the questions that were put to him here on
RSR about the legal status of the supposed CRS-BHD Ltd., choosing
instead to spit a mouthful of libellous tacks in my direction.
Also raised in that discussion was the following regrettable loss or
disappearance of a CRS eight & four, allegedly destined for the Dutch
national squad:
http://tinyurl.com/ycthmyj
Today my attention is drawn to the notice of the proposed "liquidation
sale" - of a CRS eight & a CRS four - on the nlroie.nl website:
http://www.nlroei.nl/PNphpBB2+viewtopic-t-4140.html
Naturally I'd hope and trust that there is no possible connection
between the eight & four that were so unfortunately mislaid in the UK in
2007 - around the time of the CRS liquidation - & this current
"liquidation sale" of an eight & four in the Netherlands. Equally, I'd
expect satisfactory answers to be available from the vendor, who was
formerly involved with CRS, in response to prospective buyers' questions.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Carl Douglas
<snipped>
Hans van der Pol, the vendor of these 2 boats, has written to complain
to me about my posting.
He has asked me to explain his position and involvement. I have
replied, telling him that it is not for me to explain where he stands,
but that RSR would welcome his own account.
Mr. vd Pol now informs me that he has written to his customers,
supposedly telling them that I had written on RSR about this liquidation
sale and explaining to them his own role and standing. He has not, as
yet, copied that customer message to me, so I am unable to comment upon it.
david.h...@aea.be
were lost and now are found ! Kill the fatted calf !!
Greg Doyle
> Carl Douglas wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
>
Carl,
I can't help but wonder if there might be some baggage here that you
aren't fully articulating.
Some sort of builder's envy/acrimony, perhaps publicly hemorrhaged
here at one point, that the rest of us have forgotten?
Perhaps CRS as an acronym is uncomfortably close to CDRS?
Whatever the reason, and I have my doubts given the "Filippi stole my
fin" whine of 2009 (yet Dirigo had such a fin 25 years ago), please
consider the best way to address it might not be RSR tattle.
If insurance was paid out for these boats, whomever paid might be most
interested in their possible resurrection. I imagine they read their
direct emails more often than they read RSR.
Cheers,
Greg
Carl Douglas
Greg -
Best get your facts right before accusing me of sour grapes, envy or
other ulterior motives. Conspiracy theory is, I know, a modern fashion
among those on the periphery of events. Conspiracy theories are
normally discredited by calm analyses, but live for ever in fevered
imaginings.
Filippi did not "steal my fin", but the notion got wings when it was
suggested to me on RSR that they had. There are no problems or issues
between my firm & Filippi, for several of whose boats we supply riggers
& fins each year.
From my discussions with Charlie Dibble, a long-standing good friend
BTW, I find no grounds to suggest I stole his (Dirigo's) design. And,
~25 years back & less than that, Dirigo were called Schoenbrod - as
their purchase orders & my invoices amply confirm.
CRS (Cambridge Racing Shells) has never been confused, except apparently
by you, with CDRS (Carl Douglas Racing Shells). And no jealousy is
involved, as our direct & indirect competitors will doubtless attest.
What had troubled me, & the record is clear on this, was their
unscrupulous business practices. I can confirm that these had also
caused concern to such notable corporations as Vespoli & Empacher, plus
du Pont, whose outstanding aramid fibre, Kevlar, CRS's direct &
indistinguishable predecessor very publicly denigrated. I can confirm
that suppliers to CRS, & purchasers of their products, have come to me
with complaints over their sharp practice & non-payment of bills. But
for this, I'd have had nothing to say about CRS. Furthermore, I have
always openly welcomed legitimate, ethical competitors - just as both
you & I have welcomed straight competition on the water.
If you find the strange coincidence to which I drew attention to be OK &
unworthy of informed comment, then bully for you. That you then
conflate that with half-baked attempts to invent ulterior motives is
daft. Your problem, but not mine.
CRS is dead & long gone. The person selling those 2 boats in the
Netherlands has since written to assure me that, along with Her
Majesty's Customs & Revenue & a named former investor in CRS, he was a
big loser at the hands of Gunther Borutta - his former business
associate & its former director. No doubt that is true. He also told
me that Mr. Borutta could get pretty litigious........
Although Caveat Emptor is a guiding principle in consumer law, it cannot
work in an information vacuum. One rogue trader can do a heap of damage
to the reputation of many others when they are tarred by inference, just
as you, too, have made several unwarranted inferences against me. This
was exactly how one unfortunate person, who felt they'd been rodgered by
CRS, took it when phoning to ask me, out of the blue, why they'd been
treated thus by CRS & was this how the rowing trade worked.
Similarly, I have correspondence from people who tell me how they were
put under undue, indeed coercive, pressure from Mr. Borutta through more
senior people in rowing to recant their legitimately expressed views.
What does it say for our sport that otherwise well-regarded people,
perhaps to protect their own slices of a dodgy business venture, will
use their more dominant position to silence even the most moderate
criticism of that venture's product?
The vendor of these 2 boats did himself attempt, back before CRS went
under, to get me to recant factual statements that I'd made re a
conflict over product quality & the non-payment by CRS for goods from a
subcontractor.
FWIW, when I receive confidential information I check it before I take
any action, I never act unless I know that my ground is secure, & I
never act out of malice, envy or for any reason other than that the
community will benefit from the truth. And I always protect my sources.
So, on receiving this latest information from concerned others (and do
please note that I make neither fours, nor eights - there is no conflict
of interest & the facts really do matter!) I acted in an entirely proper
manner by placing only the known facts on RSR.
Rowing has many very honourable suppliers, yet absolutely unconscionable
things are freely said about some of them by rowers who know sod-all &
care far less. Just occasionally I raise legitimate points of
particular concern, present or historical, but always on matters I have
most carefully researched & always & only where they are relevant to our
sport. I know that you remember further back on RSR than I do, Greg, so
you'll recall that, a couple of years back in previous discussion of the
antics of CR, I made reference to the founder of Carbocraft. He'd
launched his business on a ludicrous lie (eights weighing under 60kg) to
a gullible public which swallowed it whole. Carbocraft did a blast
against the rest of the rowing trade, saying how the lot was destined
for the bin. This was funded for them by a resins & paints company and
ran on fortnightly unpaid commentary on the sports pages of a national
Sunday broadsheet. I raise some questions, received 3 promises of libel
action, none of which crude threats went any further after I told them
to get stuffed. The weights lie was exposed for what it was. CC then
went spectacularly bust - just one in a series of 17 such business
failures to the guy's name, so a mere nothing, you might say. But a lot
of honest people lost their all to that guy's charm, bullying & lack of
scruples.
That's a lesson always worth the remembering. Yet when I mentioned this
on RSR I had someone piously write in to me that I shouldn't speak ill
of the dead! How do you guys in the USA feel about Al Capone - he only
fiddled his tax, didn't he? Non nisi bonum?
Now please reread what I wrote.
Greg Doyle
> Now please reread what I wrote.
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
>
>
Once was plenty. No thanks on seconds.
I'll link to the 2009 fin whine:
http://tinyurl.com/waah-waah-myfin
You may have backpedaled softly since, but you were quite clear in
your posts at the time, and I don't recall reading any sort of apology
to our Italian brethren.
I never know whether to take you seriously anymore. I simply assume
it's 75% over the top from the start.
For what it's worth I try to keep my own posts below 30% nonsensical
and conspiratory grumbling.
Cheers,
Greg
Carl Douglas
All way off my original posting, but I see it makes you feel good to
whinge on after I've despatched every one of your ill-judged complaints.
Once you're in a hole, it's best to stop digging.
BTW, I hadn't known you could actually choose your Tinyurl to make it
truly offensive. Is that smart?
Since you ask, of course I spoke with Filippi after that posting. What
sort of a fool do you take me for? On learning the full facts, I did 2
things:
1. I contacted Filippi's UK agent (he's a good friend, & unfortunately I
speak no Italian) to apologise for & explain my error. There are, sorry
to disappoint you, no problems between us.
2. I worked with the original correspondent to ensure that the problems
she'd been having (which were due to misalignment & wear on the boat)
were first understood and then resolved. I did that even though it was
2nd-hand kit on a 2nd-hand boat. Its what we always do if someone
thinks they have a problem, even many years later, with any product of ours.
30%? I think you have quite a bit to work to do to get your
conspiratory grumbling quotient on this case down below a solid 100%.
But I know the territory, so I'm not holding my breath.
Greg Doyle
your habit of doing the same on other matters.
You didn't make amends for your wrong comments about Filippi here, to
counteract the accusations you made. You also never addressed my
counter-gobsmack that "your fin" (at least in general theory) has been
around for 25 years.
Based on the emails I have received since the above exchanges, you
indeed might want you hold your breath significantly more often.
You're annoying the Brits too, and that undermines your home-field
advantage on RSR, no?
bernard s
Well, as I am the one who tipped Carl Douglas about te 4+ and the 8+,
I thonk I must add something (excuse me for my Englisch is not that
good).
For me, in sports and in trade fair play is very important. Without
that, you damage the ones who play within the rules. My mail to Carl
was becouse I see him as a person who is very keen on safety and on
fair play.
For the CRS soap, I think it stinks. If I am wrong: sorry. I don't
think the vendor in Holland knew that the boats were reported as
stolen, but I am sure these are the same boats. I found another clue;
"http://www.nlroei.nl/modules.php?
op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=7139#7139" fomt the same
vendor from 18 juli 2007. It says "for sale, little boattrailer,
because I did get a bigger one".
If I'am wrong: sorry, sorry, sorry, but I am for 99 % sure.
Bernard Seldenrath
Rotterdam
Carl Douglas
Vituperative is as vituperative does, Greg. It's something you do so
well, now as ever. Never answer or engage, always move on desperately
seeking points of vulnerability. But why?
If I cared who I annoyed, I wouldn't be me. I'll remain just as I am,
thank you. And if that means I must ignore your pompous advice on my
manners, that's so tough. Greg, I'd never have the incredible
effrontery to presume to advise you on your manners. And if you want
certain things to remain unknown & certain questions not to be asked,
then by all means look the other way.
BTW: home filed advantage on RSR? What do you mean? And since when did
you speak for "the Brits"? Those wanting to make their views plain have
no need of your intercession - "Oh Greg, please do tell Carl to be
nicer". What a load of old bollocks, if I may make so bold without
offending your sensibilities. I listen gladly to all & anyone with the
guts to speak their minds, as you do here, but not those who hide in the
shadows complaining to each other & to you.
As for fluid dynamic theory: are you really unaware that it's been
around for far longer than the last 25 years - even though rowing tends
to ignore it? It's the application of that theory to create solid
equipment offering real advantages that matters. Every aircraft now
flying owes this fact to fluid dynamic insights developed ages ago. The
remarkable wing used by BMW Oracle in regaining the America's Cup the
other week similarly applies long-established aerodynamic theory. So
did the wing we built (but didn't design, although we did do the
structural & mechanical design) for the Little America's Cup in 1988.
Greg Doyle
as loudly as you accused them of IP theft. The questions you raise
aren't really questions so much as ambushes. As you say, takes one to
know one. So I am looking at you and saying just that. Booga booga.
Get over it.
2. I think it common knowledge that the Brits remained behind here on
RSR while North Americans hit the various PHP forums. I realize you
might not have noticed as you were doing your Graham Chapman "man
foaming at the mouth droning on and on" impersonation, but it
happened.
3. I was speaking to the theory behind the execution of the fin, not
the theory of *what* it was solving, but *how* it was solving,
particularly as it relates to a fin on the bottom of a rowing boat.
Dirigo had an articulated fin/rudder combination with a soft polymer
gasket, and that dates back to the 1980s. Maybe someone had it before
them. All I know is that it wasn't you in 2000, based on my simple
understanding of space and time.
As far as deflecting the issues, I wouldn't want to infringe on any
patents you may hold there.
Cheers,
Greg
Carl Douglas
As a point of order you may recall, Greg, that it was you who had the
problems & you who was asking the questions. I was taking care to
answer them, one by one, but you weren't listening.
Still, I've enjoyed the personal insults you've doled out under the name
of Croker USA, & I don't presume to know how Howard Croker may feel
about them. The end of the Flame Wars was one of good consequence of
the departure to other forums of the hysterical "my crew's tops, yours
is crap" brigades. We have them here in the UK, just as you do in the
US - the migrations to those sexier forums that you describe is hardly a
uniquely US phenomenon.
The "theory behind the execution of the fin" - what do you mean by that
that utterly woolly talk? I designed the AeRowFin using established
methods & reputable software - doing all the what-if computations of
lift & drag versus size, section, tab geometry & profile necessary
optimise its performance - then solved the problems of its
implementation, manufacture & installation. I knew then, & still know
now, of no prior art. Of course I could be wrong. Does Charlie Dibble
tell you I've ripped him off? No.
Greg Doyle
exactly an independent voice, is it? And you never bother to apologize
as publicly as you denigrate. We all know you're the real genius in
all of rowing, Carl, don't worry about that. Just try to even up the
pile of poo before you move along and squat again.
According to my gmail domain name and lack of business signature, I am
posting as me. If you want to name drop like the cowardly tattle pratt
you are, go right ahead. You're grasping on your way down, guv'nor! I
only answer to God, so can start screaming His Holy Name if you want.
As far as the UK PHP forums, please. 2007 was SSSSOOOO.....2007. And
half the post threads haven't been touched since then.
If you sold riggers to Dirigo in the 1990s and never noticed they had
an articulated fin with a soft polymer gasket, that's your problem.
And Charlie Dibble never said anything as far as I know. I just
pointed out the existence of his 1980s fin because you claimed to be
the inventor of the idea:
"The design is mine. The additional features that you describe,
including that smooth elastomeric seal between the components, are
mine."
WRONG. Someone else played there first.
The good news is that the long overdue public apology is still up for
grabs. C'mon Carl....you can OWN IT.
Cheers,
Greg
Carl Douglas
Clearly you won't allow the mere fact of your being flat wrong to
influence what you say, Greg, & I see no point in getting into one of
those ridiculous "did-didn't" spats.
Now you've also involved the Almighty in the argument, it's obviously
high time to leave the last word with you.
Greg Doyle
"did."
I have $10 riding on whether you can shut up and accept being called
out or you keep pretending you didn't write the loopy fin saga.
I
Carl Douglas
My tips came from more than one source. And I _never_ disclose my sources.
I had not seen this latest item, nor can I reach it via the link above.
In sport we should protect the legitimate interests of all parties. The
vendor of these boats has told me (as I had long known) that some
investors & the tax man have lost heavily as a result of the adventures
of the former CRS & its predecessor, 2KV. As I've indicated, people
connected with CRS did apply pressure to someone to recant rather mild
comment on its products. And the vendor has tried similarly (but
without success) to pressure me. Coercion is always deplorable.
The vendor did write to me to complain about my posting & then to tell
me he will be explaining to potential buyers the provenance of these
boats. So far, so good, but I have no idea what he will tell them
since, as is his right, as has not shared that information with me or
with RSR.
Interesting though the content & timing of these adverts may be, we
should accept that strange coincidences remain just that - coincidences,
not evidence. As ever, the over-riding principle of Caveat Emptor
guides the wise buyer. Any deal should depend on the quality of the
goods, their price, their future support & the clarity of the vendor's
answers to the buyers questions.
bernard s
> I thonk I must add something (excuse me for my Englisch is not that
> good).
> For me, in sports and in trade fair play is very important. Without
> that, you damage the ones who play within the rules. My mail to Carl
> was becouse I see him as a person who is very keen on safety and on
> fair play.
> For the CRS soap, I think it stinks. If I am wrong: sorry. I don't
> think the vendor in Holland knew that the boats were reported as
> stolen, but I am sure these are the same boats. I found another clue;
> "http://www.nlroei.nl/modules.php?
> op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=7139#7139" fomt the same
> vendor from 18 juli 2007. It says "for sale, little boattrailer,
> because I did get a bigger one".
> If I'am wrong: sorry, sorry, sorry, but I am for 99 % sure.
> Bernard Seldenrath
> Rotterdam
Sorry, sorry, sorry. I must offer my apologies, I had it very wrong.
Contact with the salesman in the Netherlands has made it clear to me.
The boats then stolen were made for him had been paid. They were for a
Dutch club. The English press has made there wrongfully “national
squat”. He was impressed by the quality of the boats. After the
voluntary liquidation off CRS he was one of the larger creditors.
After the liquidation he has acquired these (not finished) boats. So
it took some time before he could look for buyers. Mr. Borutta was as
great boat designer and builder, but as manager less well. But
unfortunately he hasn’t got an honest chance, nor in Germany nor in
the United Kingdom.
Roger
>
> - Show quoted text -
Our club in the UK bought a single from 2KV. They delivered it when
they said they would and it performed well. It was an interesting
design and pretty quick, whether it was quicker than other boats is as
always hard to tell.
We found 2KV to be a reasonable company to do business with, certainly
better than our phone company, I understand that later they had a fire
or a flood or something at their factory and things went down hill
from there. I can't comment on dealings with the later company
Cambridge Racing but I will say that it is a fact of life that
companies go broke and as a result don't pay creditors and the taxman,
some do this ona quite frightening scale and other profit hugely from
it. In this case I would be surprised if the partners in this business
came out of it with a shirt on their back.
The 2KV designs were different from most of the Empacher clones
around. Innovation is difficult in our rather conservative industry,
Probably 2KV problem was being too different.
There seems to be only one way to get a small fortune out of running a
rowing company and that's to start with a large one.
Roger