Rowing Shoe Holes - building a database?

[Jonny]

I've just had a run of annoying jobs where the holes in the shoes didn't line up with the existing footplates and so on.

Sometimes it is a completely different pattern. Sometimes it is simply an annoyingly large variance from a 'standard'. Sometimes the holes are mounted at different levels on the shoe sole (up to 2cm in height difference).

It's maddening!

There are a few slotted footplate designs that eliminate a few of the issues, but these are not always available for every boat size or brand, nor do they always solve every issue.

I've got a couple of company issued templates and I've devised a couple from measurements, but I thought there might be some worth in an effort to create a library of shared resources.

If anyone has any templates they'd like to share, I'll collate them and upload them somewhere shared for all to use.

I'll probably do a simple PDF at first, but if I can find the time I'll draft them into CAD.

[Andy McKenzie]

You mean there are templates? I always assumed it was some bloke with a pencil tucked behind his ear saying 'tha'll do...'.

[Jonny]

On Tuesday, December 1, 2020 at 9:50:23 AM UTC, Andy McKenzie wrote:

> You mean there are templates? I always assumed it was some bloke with a pencil tucked behind his ear saying 'tha'll do...'.

Yes. Actual templates. Rare as hen's teeth though.

I've met the bloke you imagined. And his mate. They don't use the pencil to mark out the job, that's all done by Mk1 eyeball. The pencil is for the crossword at morning tea.

[Andy McKenzie]

On the shoe theme...the single most compelling reason to buy a good impact driver is the removal of the screws holding shoes to footplates (I'm guessing steel screws through aluminium plate into brass threads sets up all sorts of corrosion).

[Mad Marsupial]

On Tuesday, 1 December 2020 at 17:03:31 UTC, Andy McKenzie wrote:

> On the shoe theme...the single most compelling reason to buy a good impact driver is the removal of the screws holding shoes to footplates (I'm guessing steel screws through aluminium plate into brass threads sets up all sorts of corrosion).

Which is why I always lube the threads with something. Folks think I'm odd (for lots of other reasons too...) but years of bitter experience as a captain/boatman/etc has taught me better.

[Phil]

Clogs are the way forward, for all sorts of reasons!

[Richard]

On Tuesday, 1 December 2020 at 20:30:46 UTC, Phil wrote:

> Clogs are the way forward, for all sorts of reasons!

Couldn't agree more! Why don't more clubs / rowers / boat-builders consider this simple, safe and inexpensive option? Forget old-fashioned leather clogs with brass or plastic heel cups - surely modern materials lend themselves to a solution that provides adequate support while rowing, yet enables more or less instant release in the event of a capsize. Or have we become totally fixated on fitted shoes being the only possible solution?

[carl]

I, too regret the passing of clogs! But back to shoes:

I understand the concern over shoe bolt positions, but any reputable
shoe supplier provides, as we always have at CDRS, a template precisely
defining shoe-bolt positions.

There were problems, way back, when shoes based on running spikes had
somewhat randomly located threaded inserts. They drilled holes in the
soles for press-fit spiky plates (with threaded upstands), inserted from
inside the shoe. However, rowing shoes now have moulded soles with
embedded threaded inserts. Templates are usually supplied & the moulds
don't change.

Still, templates are easily made if needed. Either:
1. Place each shoe on a flat-bed photocopier; hold down to flatten the
sole; press copy - for a perfect image of sole & holes. Cut out,
align & tape onto stretcher board or shoe plate, mark holes & drill.
or:
2. Photograph the shoe soles square on (with a ruler at the same level
for scale), then print the images to scale, etc.

But shoe plates are a pointless pain. Our stretchers don't have them as
we bolt the shoes directly onto our carbon stretcher boards. The board
is secured to the stretcher bar by a central bolt. A line of holes lets
you move the board up or down for height adjustment. A sliding
component (the height/rake adjuster) facilitates this & allows easy,
secure rake adjustment:
https://shop.carldouglas.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=91
This simple system ensures that the vital heel cords remain correctly
adjusted, regardless of shoe height. To move shoes to another
similarly-equipped boat or position, just undo the central & bottom bolt
& make the switch.

NB, we do have a more advanced foot stretcher (our PowrBoard). Shaped
to the foot, with lockable rotational alignment for each shoe (splays
adjustable over a 20-deg range). Like our standard stretcher, there's
no shoe plate. And, in the event of a swim, you'll get passive release
of feet from shoes. Just as some walk with feet straight & others with
feet splayed, foot splay really can matter - especially after hip or
knee surgery. Comfort in rowing affects performance & enjoyment.

BTW, I do chuckle at talk of 'connecting the power through the
stretcher'. No, your feet don't transmit power to the stretcher,
nothing does, they just apply force. The definition of power, P, is:
P = F x D / T (strictly the integral through the stroke of that)
where:
F = force applied by the feet
D = distance moved by the feet under that force WRT stretcher
T = duration of that force's application
As D = 0 (your feet don't move from the stretcher), zero power is
developed at, or transmitted through, the stretcher, just force.
Propulsive power results from the relative motion, under load & WRT the
stretcher, of all other parts of the body than the feet - unless you
lift your heels near the end of the stroke. A good stretcher helps.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

---
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[Jonny]

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 6:40:33 PM UTC, carl wrote:
> On 01/12/2020 21:52, Richard wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 1 December 2020 at 20:30:46 UTC, Phil wrote:
> >
> >> Clogs are the way forward, for all sorts of reasons!
> >
> > Couldn't agree more! Why don't more clubs / rowers / boat-builders consider this simple, safe and inexpensive option? Forget old-fashioned leather clogs with brass or plastic heel cups - surely modern materials lend themselves to a solution that provides adequate support while rowing, yet enables more or less instant release in the event of a capsize. Or have we become totally fixated on fitted shoes being the only possible solution?
> >
> I, too regret the passing of clogs! But back to shoes:
>
> I understand the concern over shoe bolt positions, but any reputable
> shoe supplier provides, as we always have at CDRS, a template precisely
> defining shoe-bolt positions.
>

I think the market has spoken about the clog issue in racing boats!

The problem I face often eludes Carl's answer. Even his company has changed shoe supplier over the years so a footplate in a 30 year old CD scull can be a hassle with new shoes! Many old footplates actually only have 3 holes drilled or only 3 bolts installed! I have even faced the issue of a rower having a preference for a different shoe to the one that actually fits the boat.

Quite a few shoe makers are actually unable to provide a drawing or details of the hole pattern when asked! I know - I've asked.

Separate shoe plates (from the footboard) can be one way to solve some of the issues, but even that isn't universal to all boat types and has drawbacks of it's own.

I've started by taking pencil rubbings from the bottom of the shoes I have in the workshop (no flat bed copier there) that look pretty accurate.

[carl]

On 03/12/2020 14:31, Jonny wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 6:40:33 PM UTC, carl wrote:
>> On 01/12/2020 21:52, Richard wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 1 December 2020 at 20:30:46 UTC, Phil wrote:
>>>
>>>> Clogs are the way forward, for all sorts of reasons!
>>>
>>> Couldn't agree more! Why don't more clubs / rowers / boat-builders consider this simple, safe and inexpensive option? Forget old-fashioned leather clogs with brass or plastic heel cups - surely modern materials lend themselves to a solution that provides adequate support while rowing, yet enables more or less instant release in the event of a capsize. Or have we become totally fixated on fitted shoes being the only possible solution?
>>>
>> I, too regret the passing of clogs! But back to shoes:
>>
>> I understand the concern over shoe bolt positions, but any reputable
>> shoe supplier provides, as we always have at CDRS, a template precisely
>> defining shoe-bolt positions.
>>
>
> I think the market has spoken about the clog issue in racing boats!
>

Yes - by replacing clogs (which are quite hygienic, fit a wide range of
foot size & are totally safe for foot release) with shoes (originally
track shoes) which fit only one size & can trap your feet! BTW, we do
still make clogs for clients who require them.

Until I introduced the heel restraint cord into rowing, shoes were
trapping & drowning several unsuspecting rowers each year. And nothing
was done!

> The problem I face often eludes Carl's answer. Even his company has changed shoe supplier over the years so a footplate in a 30 year old CD scull can be a hassle with new shoes! Many old footplates actually only have 3 holes drilled or only 3 bolts installed! I have even faced the issue of a rower having a preference for a different shoe to the one that actually fits the boat.
>

Good rowing shoes can cost from ~£50 up to quite extraordinary sums for
really fashionable models. Shoe plates cost under £15. A new carbon
stretcher board costs £50. So we're not talking large numbers for a
plate or a board.

As for 3 bolts per shoe? We've used only 3 bolts almost from the day we
first fitted shoes - because our tests showed that 3 were always more
than sufficient. In the early days the main problem was that the
running shoes then used were not made for the repeated pulling loads
that rowers apply to them on each stroke, so uppers regularly separated
from soles. We resolved that by getting a local cobbler to stitch the
soles to the uppers before we would fit such shoes.

> Quite a few shoe makers are actually unable to provide a drawing or details of the hole pattern when asked! I know - I've asked.
>

That's not clever of them! And there are still some shoes whose bolt
holes don't match - from size to size, from side to side or from model
to model. One leading make, defined by stripes, once had that problem.
And their soles were cardboard-backed - so the spiked inserts could
rotate & carve through the cardboard if the bolt was tight in the thread
- one useless shoe.

When rowers invest considerable sums on clothing, electronics & time
(not forgetting the mounting costs of training, diet, travel, club
membership, regatta entry, boats, blades & "being a rower") cut-price
shoes (so often fitted with BR-approved but disastrously ineffective
heel restraint cords!) seem a dubious choice when perfectly good shoes
are not expensive.

> Separate shoe plates (from the footboard) can be one way to solve some of the issues, but even that isn't universal to all boat types and has drawbacks of it's own.
>

Stretchers are not necessarily specific to certain boats, any more than
seats, tracks, bungs, riggers, steering equipment, etc. Too often I
hear people worrying over the inadequacies of foot stretcher gear and
the difficulty of everyone having the right size of shoe. But any club
keen to solve that problem could provide a simple stretcher bar and
mountings in each position and mandate that rowers have their own
approved stretcher boards with fitted shoes, just as they must provide
their own kit. Simples.

> I've started by taking pencil rubbings from the bottom of the shoes I have in the workshop (no flat bed copier there) that look pretty accurate.
>

The scanner or camera gives true accuracy, as you know, but no harm in
providing other options...

[Jonny]

The first test of this proves the concept.

Some pictures via my Twitter account https://twitter.com/flying_boatman/status/1339159775532158976

Now to check a few more shoes and include the splay angle. I hadn't factored in that the varied angle of the holes on the shoe might also be a factor (of course each manufacturer would vary that too...).