Can I be Novice again??
hagan_ko
I hope somebody out there can help me with this one.
The 1996-1997 rowing season was my novice year at Pacific Lutheran University
in Tacoma, WA.
I was a coxswain for the novice men. However, when I return to school in the
fall, is it legal for me to be a coxswain for the NOVICE team again, even though
it isn't my first year of competition??? Our school is NCAA Division 3.
Does anyone out there know if What does the NCAA / NAIA have to say about this
matter??
thanks,
hagan ko
Pacific Lutheran University Crew
ko...@plu.edu
Brad Crane
Hagan Ko wrote in article <5ockj4$6...@drn.zippo.com>...
>> ko...@plu.edu
>
There's a reason they call it NOVICE.
I don't know what the NCAA / NAIA would officially say about this, but
your novice year is ONE year, not as many times as you feel like coming
back. The idea, as I see it, is to introduce students/athletes to the
sport of rowing. After that year is up you 'should' have a great advantage
over next years novices, therefore you row/compete on the varsity level.
Think of the learning curve for rowing. Most people learn a great deal
about rowing in their first year, for you to return with that knowledge
would be unfair for those who are just starting.
Why would you want to cox for the novice team again? You would just be
taking away the opportunity for someone new to the sport to compete.
BRAD CRANE
The opinions expressed here are mine but you can share with me if you
want.
NomadJac
No
NomadJac
Acutally, to clarify. The NCAA or NAIA have no bearing on this matter
whatsoever, the NCAA governs women's rowing but not men's. The rules are
dictated by the specific regatta you are attending, and any regatta worth
going to has specific rules governing novice coxswains, they must adhere
to the same guidelines as novice rowers. So the answer is no.
Jjlucier
><HTML>I hope somebody out there can help me with this one.
>
>The 1996-1997 rowing season was my novice year at Pacific Lutheran
University
>in Tacoma, WA.
>
>I was a coxswain for the novice men. However, when I return to school
in the
>fall, is it legal for me to be a coxswain for the NOVICE team again, even
though
>it isn't my first year of competition??? Our school is NCAA Division 3.
>
>Does anyone out there know if What does the NCAA / NAIA have to say
about >this
>matter??
>
>thanks,
>
>hagan ko
>Pacific Lutheran University Crew
>ko...@plu.edu
My first question would be why would you want to cox in a novice boat
again? But seriously, most regattas(high school or college) that I have
raced in do not allow an experienced coxswain in a novice boat. The only
time you can have an experienced cox in a novice boat is if that cox is
now a rower and not a cox. I not sure if this can happen in the Sprints.
Jeff Lucier
Jefferson Freshman Boys Coach
Kirsty Black
On 20 Jun 1997, Jjlucier wrote:
>
> My first question would be why would you want to cox in a novice boat
> again? But seriously, most regattas(high school or college) that I have
> raced in do not allow an experienced coxswain in a novice boat. The only
> time you can have an experienced cox in a novice boat is if that cox is
> now a rower and not a cox. I not sure if this can happen in the Sprints.
>
Is this for real? And does this explain the number of postings
advertising for coxes??? Why? Surely the rowers improve faster with an
experienced cox, and it would therefore be in the interest of the sport to
allow any cox with any crew? I hope that I could make a boat go faster
than a cox with 2 weeks experience, but I cannot believe that an
experienced cox can make that much difference to a novice crew - certainly
I know that much of my coxing is wasted on complete novices, as they
understand little other than "pull harder" and "go faster", and would
probably just stop completely if I mentioned anything complicated like
finishes or even - God forbid - slide control. And although my line would
(I hope!) be better than a novice cox's, in a novice crew, I find that the
rowers do more steering than the cox, and no matter how experienced you
are, there's not much you can do if someone catches a humungous crab...
so why bother classifying coxes? Does this happen throughout the US, or
just certain states? and how is a cox classified? Is there a separate
points system for coxing sculls and sweep-oared boats (sculls obviously
being twice as difficult!) as there is for rowing? Does an experienced
rower enter as a novice cox, because surely they wouold be better than a
novice, and so the system would be unfair? Just wondering...
Not that I think Americans are potty or anything :-), but I quite enjoy
being able to cox Elite one weekend, and Worse-Than-Novice the next - it
certainly makes you appreciate the good rowers more!
Btw, what are the rules re: coxing weight limits in the US? and can males
cox female crews and vice versa? Again, simply curiosity...
Kirsty
Jorge Chen
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kirsty Black wrote:
>
> On 20 Jun 1997, Jjlucier wrote:
> >
> > My first question would be why would you want to cox in a novice boat
> > again? But seriously, most regattas(high school or college) that I have
> > raced in do not allow an experienced coxswain in a novice boat. The only
> > time you can have an experienced cox in a novice boat is if that cox is
> > now a rower and not a cox. I not sure if this can happen in the Sprints.
> >
>
> Is this for real? And does this explain the number of postings
> advertising for coxes??? Why? Surely the rowers improve faster with an
> experienced cox, and it would therefore be in the interest of the sport to
> allow any cox with any crew? I hope that I could make a boat go faster
> than a cox with 2 weeks experience, but I cannot believe that an
> experienced cox can make that much difference to a novice crew - certainly
>
> so why bother classifying coxes? Does this happen throughout the US, or
> just certain states? and how is a cox classified? Is there a separate
You are underestimating the importance of a cox...Even though I am not a
cox myself, I've learned to respect the power, control, and mind-draining
task that they go through especially watching an experienced cox. I tried
putting it nicely on my other post to Hagan but I just feel like he just
doesn't have what is takes to be in this sport. I believe that coxes
should be classified the same as rowers...coxes are athletes too. And I
agree with the post by the ex-coach (sorry I forgot his name) that coxes
that are not willing to take up the challenge are not ready for this
sport...some people can learn to be a good oarsmen, but not everyone can
really learn to be a good cox. Good coxes have this sixth sense or
something that makes them good. By the many postings placed by Hagan Ko, I
believe that he is in this sport just for medals, shirts, and possibly a
resume filler...that is seen by his saying that varsity has never been
competitive thus he does not want to take part of it since he won't win
anything and waste time, and his numerous questions regarding shirt
racing etiquette. It is not the shirt, it is the win that counts...the
win hangs on your mind and heart forever, instead of a shirt on your
wall...Even though I know some of you are saying, "I like the shirt too."
:) Our second novice boat, the one I've been rowing on, had many downs in
our season...getting blown by SI high and finishing a 2K for an 8+ in
8:00 was really sad...however, we all stuck to it and we still woke up
early mornings with one goal in mind...to get better...eventually we
dropped our time to a 6:24 in 3 months and missing the grand finals by 1
second while we were ranked 18th out 18 going into the finals. I am not
bragging here since this is not a story of us coming in first or anything
like that but just that a lot of hard work and sticking with this sport
really gets you somewhere. Even after many frustating mornings with
your teammates, your ownself, the coaches, or your cox. If you give up on
your teammates or yourself right off the bat, you already lost.
Anyhow, regarding the question about rowers becoming coxes and
thus having an edge...who ever said that basketball players going into
colleges didn't have previous experience or the same number of years of
experience! Everyone has their own different background and we cannot
make up for that. Lastly, a rower coxing does not necessarily means a
better cox...like I said, some people have it and some don't...sorry for
the long message but after one year of rowing at Stanford, you tend to
think a lot, wonder about this crazy early morning sport, and really enjoy
a good row, especially after winning a seat race or a regatta. :)
Good luck everyone and enjoy your summer on the water,
JC
P.S. By the way Hagan, I know we owe you shirts and the truth of the
matter is that we will get them to you...my coach has been scrambling
everywhere to find extra shirts...he found 2 and is looking for 3
more...we are Stanford oarsmen -- we have pride and we run by
honor even despite the financial setbacks. Worse comes to worse we
will get them to you once we reorder for next fall...it's been a
hard financial year for us. Please be patient with us and we will get
them to you. Thanks for the listening ear.
========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|
Jorge Chen
PO Box 2847
Stanford, CA 94309-2847
"C'mon guys!" :) J. CHEN
\ \ \ \
<==O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=o==> Stanford Crew Rules!
/ / / /
========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|========>>>>|
hagan_ko
I think people have been misunderstanding the posts that I've made. I don't
think people have the right to judge others based on the little information that
they know.
The situation within our crew is very complicated. It can't be totally
understood in the context of a few posts. I think for others to even attempt to
understand the issues that we're dealing with among the Novice and Varsity crews
requires more than make assumptions on a few posts.
First of all, people don't know how the Novice teams were treated by the
Varsity. They really looked down upon the Novices and treated us like we were
stupid, ignorant people. Maybe they were right to treat us like that because
it's true that we are inexperienced and not as skilled as they are. Our teams
was very Varsity clique and Novice clique. I've been told by many Varsity
people that they don't want me back on the Varsity team in the fall. In fact,
it was not just me, but others also received this kind of treatment. Only the
"better" rowers were welcomed to join the Varsity clique.
I think being a cox even makes the situation even more difficult. The rowers
don't want to listen to someone who is less experienced than they are. How can
I expect them to listen to me when some of them have been rowing together for
3,4,5+ years? If you've been working at your job for 5 years, WOULD YOU LISTEN
TO SOMEONE who's just been there for 9 months??
Secondly, I usually get involved with people's lives. Our school is small and
so you get to know people quite well. My relationship with people on my crew
isn't just on the water. I think the more important things that we've learned
have been off the water. Unfortunately, some of the novices have had
differences with the Varsity.
This is just a tidbit of all the issues that we're facing.
For me, being Novice again is my attempt NOT to give up on the sport. I've been
told to give up because I'm not wanted next year. The Varsity want to stick
with the people that they've worked with for a long time.
Please don't jump to conclusions or make assumptions based on a few posts.
I know it was my fault for not explaining the situation completely. However, it
is really complicated and would take a long time to understand the situation
completely.
All I was looking for was a legal definition of "Novice." I know that under US
Rules of Rowing coxswains aren't really considered part of the "crew" as
compared to FISA rules where coxswains are part of the "crew" and have to be the
same sex as the rowers.
Do coxswains really make a difference?? I don't know. I've been told by some
that they don't. Some say they do. I guess it all depends.
Hagan Ko
PLU Crew
194...@ef.pvc.maricopa.edu
Jorge Chen
I am sorry to hear about your situation...however, every crew has their
own problems...crew is a sport that everyone is very close (we are
one...8 rowers together as one boat)...and sometimes too close for their
own good. Anyhow, I believe that the answer to your original question is
no, you cannot cox novice again because novice means that you are new to
the sport and unfortunately in this case you are not, and it would be
unfair to the other brand new coxswains from other schools to cox other
novice boats for the first time and you having an edge on them. (Even if
they coxed in high school before, collegiate rowing is another level of
competition). As far as coxswains making a difference, I've heard
something like "a cox cannot win a race, but a cox can sure lose one." I
think that is self explanatory. Anyhow, good luck dealing with the
varsity guys, if they won't take you then talk to someone (hint: your
coach)! You will have to face it sooner or later...or are you planning to
stay as a novice cox for 4 years in college?
If you are a true athlete, you will step up and move on despite the
challenges. Like I said before, that's life, nothing is easy in this
world, especially when you are talking about competition. I am 5'8", 150
lbs seat racing against 6 feet, 180 lbs guys...am I just going to quit and
say, he is bigger so he is supposed to win so I will just let him win? NO
WAY! I am not only gonna win but win by open water! I know this is not
exactly the same but at least you are dealing with attitudes and attitudes
can be changed, I am dealing with physical disadvantages and that is hard
to change...like I said before, take up the challenge and step up...you
will be surprised at how much respect you will get afterwards. If the
problem still remains after talking to your coach, then your whole crew,
not only varsity but the whole program has a problem and someone needs to
do something about it.
But it's whether you move up to varsity or JV or you don't cox at all...
it is only fair to the true novice coxes.
I've said enough on this topic...good luck.
JC
novice 2. a person new to a particular occupation, active, etc.: beginner,
SYN amateur... from Webster's
I don't think there is really any room for interpretations...it is common
sense.
Stefan R Politz
HaganKo wrote:
: I think people have been misunderstanding the posts that I've made. I don't
It sounds as if there are major self esteem issues on the PLU crew team:
the varsity a little too much and well, the novices believce that they
suck as badly as novices do.
I don't know you or your team but it sounds as if it is time for the
coach to step in and give a little talk about team unity and all that
feel good stuff, so you guys will hug and be friends.
I will tell you that the friends I made through crew are my best
friends. Probably because I spent so much time at the river I was
socially inept and did not meet anyone who did not row but that is
another story. I too was once ridiculed, made fun of, jeered, spit upon,
and the like. I was once a lightweight. For two years of my rowing
career at Penn I rowed with the lightweight team. We were pretty fast
and had a good season my 2nd year, but still the heavyweights made fun of
us: our unisuits, our coxswain, the whole nine yards. It gave us a
complex. We were lightweights.
We would occasionally do pieces with the heavies and we would hang with
them. It gained us respect although it was often hard to see. So I say to
you- get better, beat the boys who mock you on the
water. Take the scrubby oarsmen you are left with and as a coxswain (the
general of the team) take those scrappy oars and make them good.
I was a coxswain once, at an all boys high school with a very competitive
team. The rowers' had heads the size of Jupiter. As the cox, the
oarsman blame everything one you and believe me, everything. Three seat
is rowing poorly and the strokeman wants you to do something about it.
What the hell can you do? You admitted you suck, no one has any
confidence in you. So I say, say something, anything, and say it with
conviction, like you believe if three man does this, your boat is going
to win the world championships. It is all smoke and mirrors when it
comes to some things in rowing, especially when correcting a three man's
technique. They aren't listening anyway but what they do hear is your
voice commanding their effort.
Either my response to your post will help you or some other tired soul
who is being abused at the boat house or it is just mindless dribble that
means nothing in the grand scheme of life. So say to those who mock you,
"Enjoy your jokes, cliques, secret hand shakes and rituals. I will see
you on the water where I will kick your ass."