Start commands
William J. Wadsworth
I do not have much preference in the language for commands used for the
start of a rowing race, however there are certain things that I feel are
required.
1: Each command word should be short, particularly the GO!
This give a definite start time. The french commands
Etes vous pret? Partez!, have far too many syllables for a sharp start.
2: I like three command starts ( eg. attention. set? Go! )
The first tells all the crews to stop messing arround an
be ready to go as the starter is tired of waiting an will probably ignore
any coxes' hands which are still raised. The cadence of the set? go! or
equivalent is then in effect the true start.
3:Don't use the same words for each part of the command
This is really sour grapes, the Japanese start ( starto?
Yo. Go!) sounds like 'start Go. Go. Go!', I got very confused.
On a Different tack: the changes to the FISA start have been an attempt to
eliminate false starts, not out of a wish to abolish tradition. The
changes did not work, so the changes have been changed. In my opinion,
no change to the start commands will eliminate false starts, because it
is a fundamental fact of rowing that there is a considerable time
delay (1/2 to 1 second) between the oarsmen begining to row, and the boat
actually moving. As long as the start command is given to the oarsmen
but the false starts are judged by the movement of the boat, this
presents an insurmountable problem. No one will be prepared to lose time
by starting to move his body at the GO!, which moves the boat very late.
Therefore everyone will be trying to anticipate the Go and begin moving
just before they think it will be so that the boat moves on GO! and no
time is lost. The starts at last year's worlds, with an unpredictable
start produced hundreds of false starts, as should have been expected.
The only solutions are a) have a totally predictable start, so that
everyone can practise the correct anticipation and all boats move on GO,
or b) judge false starts by movement of the crew, which I would suggest
is impossible.
End of Diatribe
Will
Oxford lightweights
Gregory Hull
: Has anyone ever considered a professionally prepared, pre-recording so
: that the start command will be the same every time and that any competitor
: / organization can practice with that specific command and cadence?
: power10
The EARC receintly has given race officials the freedom to give the
starting commands at any cadence they wish in an attempt to make jumping
the start more difficult.
Having a "professionally prepared, pre-recording" would be nothing more
than an open invitation for crews to jump the start, which we all know
is of course unsportsmanlike and unfair.
Greg Hull
/\/ortheastern Frosh.
POWER10
Jay Feenan
In article <3nimp2$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pow...@aol.com (POWER10) writes...
Since the commands will most likely eliminate cadence in the future by
implementing a long and variable length pause along with eliminating the word
SET. This is a good idea, but short lived.
-Jay Feenan [assuming it will change in the US in the future]
Benedict John Poulton
>
> POWER10 (pow...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Has anyone ever considered a professionally prepared, pre-recording so
> : that the start command will be the same every time and that any competitor
> : / organization can practice with that specific command and cadence?
> : power10
>
> starting commands at any cadence they wish in an attempt to make jumping
> the start more difficult.
At Paris International regatta last year, they were experimenting
with a number of different starting procedures, with mixed results:
- starting gates or 'clogs' that held the bows of your boat in
position while lining up on the start. JUST before the command 'GO',
they disappeared underneath the water rapidly. I thought they were
because they made it much easier for us to line up (especially in a
wind - Nottingham take note) and they made it harder to jump the
start without getting caught.
- using a short audible tone (BEEP) instead of a verbal command.
I didn't get to try that one, but it was coordinated with the start
gates and released at a varied intervals. It seems to be more precise
than starters commands, if a little in-human.
Not exactly viable for small town regattas, but it could be the future!
Ben/ic
Jay Feenan
In article <3oahfi$n...@frigate.doc.ic.ac.uk>, Benedict John Poulton <bj...@doc.ic.ac.uk> writes...
.
.
.
>
>At Paris International regatta last year, they were experimenting
>with a number of different starting procedures, with mixed results:
>
>- starting gates or 'clogs' that held the bows of your boat in
.
.
>- using a short audible tone (BEEP) instead of a verbal command.
.
.
>Not exactly viable for small town regattas, but it could be the future!
>
>Ben/ic
Ben, this is the future. This starting system has been adopted as the FISA
standard. It will be used at the next Olympics as well as the pre-Olympic
regatta [the US Nationals] this year. The recent changes in the verbal
"manual" command sequence was to bring it in line with the signals used by this
"electronic" system.
-Jay Feenan
DOUGNLINDA
competitive NEED to anticipate the start command. Rowers can begin their
motion well before the actual start command, because of the fact that the
boat does not immediately react to their motion.
I spoke with a friend at work who is really into drag racing, and he says
this is exactly the reason that they use a "Christmas Tree" in drag
racing. The starter hits his button, and then the progression of lights
down the tree is completely automated; uniform every time. The result is
that everyone knows exactly when the final, green start light is going to
come on. Everyone anticipates that green light to such a degree that the
conventional wisdom says if you actually see the green light come on, you
have already lost the race. It is such a reliable system that false
starts are typically penalized by a DQ; no warnings.
This doesn't seem like that difficult a system to implement. It requires
no fancy underwater gates and doesn't need multiple loudspeakers. One
light tree up with the starter would do the trick. The whole system could
be completely portable and quite inexpensive.
Now what's french for "green light"?
Doug Barker
Dayton Ohio
Dougn...@aol.com
Jay Feenan
In article <3odaug$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dougn...@aol.com (DOUGNLINDA) writes...
.
.
.
>I spoke with a friend at work who is really into drag racing, and he says
>this is exactly the reason that they use a "Christmas Tree" in drag
>racing. The starter hits his button, and then the progression of lights
>down the tree is completely automated; uniform every time. The result is
>that everyone knows exactly when the final, green start light is going to
>come on. Everyone anticipates that green light to such a degree that the
>conventional wisdom says if you actually see the green light come on, you
>have already lost the race. It is such a reliable system that false
>starts are typically penalized by a DQ; no warnings.
>
>This doesn't seem like that difficult a system to implement. It requires
.
.
Actually it is fairly difficult to implement these types of systems. The
principle reason being that the start is in water and 110 or 220 volt systems
are not feasible. The Aegostart system as described in a previous posting is
powered by battery. This comes with its own faults in powering lights...not
enough power. They will be trying to design a visual starting signal that uses
'flip disks' similar to signs seen in airports since they require less power.
-Jay Feenan
Amy Abbot
Had an interesting and enlightening experience when driving the chase
launch at this weekends Open Regional Championships in Vancouver WA.
Being a rower/catch cox, I generally experience the start from the
platform and see the flag drop simultaneously with the "Go!". This
weekend, I was sitting at the 1000m mark in my launch, waiting for the
start so that I would not upset the water on the course. The crews were
aligned; the flag went up and dropped in a flash. I saw the crews move
away in utter silence...."Attention, Set, Go!".. "Cachunk"..."Half,
Three-Quarters".......
I realize that sound and light travel at vastly different speeds and that
use of auditory start mechanisms is difficult to employ in a manner which
is fair to all the rowers in the line up (e.g. a horn above each lane).
It was just interesting to see just the effects over such a large
distance. Fun with Physics (or perhaps fun for the feable minded). I
can attest that my eyes were glued even more firmly to that red flag when
I made it to the start platform to race.
Amy Abbot
Andrew Everett
>
>In article <3odaug$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dougn...@aol.com (DOUGNLINDA) writes...
>..
>..
>>I spoke with a friend at work who is really into drag racing, and he says
>>this is exactly the reason that they use a "Christmas Tree" in drag
>>racing. The starter hits his button, and then the progression of lights
>>down the tree is completely automated; uniform every time. The result is
>>that everyone knows exactly when the final, green start light is going to
>>come on. Everyone anticipates that green light to such a degree that the
>>conventional wisdom says if you actually see the green light come on, you
>>have already lost the race. It is such a reliable system that false
>>starts are typically penalized by a DQ; no warnings.
>>
>>This doesn't seem like that difficult a system to implement. It requires
>..
>..
>
>
>Actually it is fairly difficult to implement these types of systems. The
>principle reason being that the start is in water and 110 or 220 volt systems
>are not feasible. The Aegostart system as described in a previous posting is
>powered by battery. This comes with its own faults in powering lights...not
>enough power. They will be trying to design a visual starting signal that uses
>'flip disks' similar to signs seen in airports since they require less power.
>
>-Jay Feenan
But any automation of the start will take away from one of the greatest and
possibly the most fun strategies(if you want to call it that) of rowing
Anticipating the start and being on that start at the right exact moment.
It takes knowing the cadence of the starters commands
and each starter is different. Its an art form all its own. It would be sad to
lose it. Alas....Progress.
Andy
OSU Crew (manager/coxswain) '85-'88
John Cunniffe
>Had an interesting and enlightening experience when driving the chase
>launch at this weekends Open Regional Championships in Vancouver WA.
>Being a rower/catch cox, I generally experience the start from the
>platform and see the flag drop simultaneously with the "Go!". This
>weekend, I was sitting at the 1000m mark in my launch, waiting for the
>start so that I would not upset the water on the course. The crews were
>aligned; the flag went up and dropped in a flash. I saw the crews move
>away in utter silence...."Attention, Set, Go!".. "Cachunk"..."Half,
>Three-Quarters".......
Over 1000m you would expect ~3 seconds delay between light and sound.
(I remember being coxing an VIII in the middle of our lake when a thunder-
storm hit. As we hared back to the boathouse, I remember working out
how close the thing was getting as the intervals between flash and sound
dropped from an initial 10seconds(~2 miles) down to just over a second when
the lightning was hitting the hill on my left. Not a pleasant experience.)
The effect I notice more often is when a boat passes you and you watch the
blades, you hear the catches & finishes late as the boat approaches, as the
boat reaches you they coincide and then drift apart again.
It has just struck me that the 1/20th of a second it takes sound to travel
from stroke's seat to bow could be use to explain the timing problems seen
in novice VIIIs. Maybe not.
>I can attest that my eyes were glued even more firmly to that red flag when
>I made it to the start platform to race.
Very wise. How do Deaf rowers 'anticipate' the start? Thoughts?
John Cunniffe (j...@maths.tcd.ie)
3rd Year Physics
Trinity College Dublin, (Ireland).
Jay Feenan
In article <3p8l5s$k...@quilla.tezcat.com>, drew...@tezcat.com (Andrew Everett) writes...
.
.
.
>
>
>But any automation of the start will take away from one of the greatest and
>possibly the most fun strategies(if you want to call it that) of rowing
>Anticipating the start and being on that start at the right exact moment.
>It takes knowing the cadence of the starters commands
>and each starter is different. Its an art form all its own. It would be sad to
>lose it. Alas....Progress.
>
>Andy
>OSU Crew (manager/coxswain) '85-'88
>
Don't understand your comment. Anticipation has nothing to do with the
automation of the start...more to do with the sequence of commands and the
pause prior to the word GO.
-Jay Feenan
Benedict John Poulton
>>I spoke with a friend at work who is really into drag racing, and he says
>>this is exactly the reason that they use a "Christmas Tree" in drag
>>racing. The starter hits his button, and then the progression of lights
>>down the tree is completely automated; uniform every time. The result is
>>that everyone knows exactly when the final, green start light is going to
>>come on. Everyone anticipates that green light to such a degree that the
>>conventional wisdom says if you actually see the green light come on, you
>>have already lost the race. It is such a reliable system that false
>>starts are typically penalized by a DQ; no warnings.
>>This doesn't seem like that difficult a system to implement. It requires
>.
A problem withthis would occur in windy conditions when the boats are
having difficulties keeping straight on the start. If the "christmas tree"
takes a long time to progress then most crews will not be aligned when the
"go" signal finally arrives.
It requires the judgement of an umpire (not always entirely reliable, I
appreciate) to decide how quickly to get the race started.
Ben/ic
John Wylder
racers 'christmas tree' start lights. I noticed that they use
separate sets of lights per lane to allow for handicaps. The
slower race car has a green light first, then the faster one
starts.
Imagine rowing adopting that at the masters level! We could have
different lanes starting at different times, but the finishes
would then close (at least in theory). Of course, I am not sure
we could get a race off on time, as all six lanes would have
unique opportunities for false starts.
Clyde W Voigtlander
>
> A problem withthis would occur in windy conditions when the boats are
> having difficulties keeping straight on the start. If the "christmas tree"
> takes a long time to progress then most crews will not be aligned when the
> "go" signal finally arrives.
> It requires the judgement of an umpire (not always entirely reliable, I
> appreciate) to decide how quickly to get the race started.
>
>
"christmas tree" operated at, say, the cadence of most starter's
countdown starts, crews would have the necessary time to correct
their points. The principal difficulty would be with novice crews/
coxswains--that is when the starter must decide whether a crew's
point is so far out of line that a start would be unsafe.
Regarding another point, I agree with Jay--nothing in the
christmas tree arrangement will reduce anticipation. In fact,
a completely regular, invariable cadence is likely to increase
anticipation.
--
C.W. Voigtlander
ai...@freenet.carleton.ca 72143...@compuserve.com
Et clamor meus ad te veniat
Jay Feenan
In article <3pfou1$b...@frigate.doc.ic.ac.uk>, Benedict John Poulton <bjp2> writes...
>(DOUGNLINDA) writes...
>>>I spoke with a friend at work who is really into drag racing, and he says
>>>this is exactly the reason that they use a "Christmas Tree" in drag
>>>racing. The starter hits his button, and then the progression of lights
.
.
>
>A problem withthis would occur in windy conditions when the boats are
>having difficulties keeping straight on the start. If the "christmas tree"
>takes a long time to progress then most crews will not be aligned when the
>"go" signal finally arrives.
>It requires the judgement of an umpire (not always entirely reliable, I
>appreciate) to decide how quickly to get the race started.
>
>
With the new Aegostart system which utilizes a 'light system' to indicate the
start there is also what they call alignment controls. As mentioned previously
in this newsgroup, there is a 'shoe' put on the bow of your boat that keeps it
straight until the 'green light' is lit. At that point the mechanism (which I
believe is pneumatically controlled) submerges beneath the water. This is
basically the system used in kayak racing today.
-Jay Feenan
Clyde W Voigtlander
> racers 'christmas tree' start lights. I noticed that they use
> separate sets of lights per lane to allow for handicaps. The
> slower race car has a green light first, then the faster one
> starts.
> Imagine rowing adopting that at the masters level! We could have
> different lanes starting at different times, but the finishes
> would then close (at least in theory). Of course, I am not sure
> we could get a race off on time, as all six lanes would have
> unique opportunities for false starts.
Yeah, John, that's all we need--a totally perplexed starter, six
start judges, and a protest jury that would be in session
perpetually!
Amy Abbot
>Imagine rowing adopting that at the masters level! We could have
>different lanes starting at different times, but the finishes
>would then close (at least in theory).
This method has been applied in several races in which I have
participated, with greater and lesser success.
This year at the San Diego Crew Classic all the Masters races were done
with a staggered start, so that first across the line was the true
winner. I did not race in a masters event, but it seemed to work quite
well. (Any comments from those who actually raced? Ted?)
Of course San Diego was raced over 2000m and within delinated age
catagories. A few years ago I raced in Seattle Sprints, an all masters
race which at that time was raced over appx. 750m. I was in bow of the
"A" women's 8+ which won in its catagory. The culmination of racing was
a grand final across generations. It was a three boat final with the
start staggered by the age handicap. Being the youngest boat, we were
heavily handicapped at 18s.
It was really quite amusing. The first boat left the line and the
starter began counting down the seconds. About 5-7 seconds later the
second boat left the line, and still we wait.... 10, 11, 12... The
starter begins to increase the pace.... 17, 18. And we're off!
With only 750m to race, I imagined Martha's Moms (the winning boat) had
already finished, de-rigged and gone home.
I think staggered starts are fun, because there is no ambiguity when you
cross the line as to who actually won the race. They are problematic in
regard to false starting, large age gaps and short courses. You also
have to have that "go get 'em" attitude if you are not the lead boat off
the line, because you are always going to be starting behind.
Amy Abbot
Seattle Rowing Club, etc....
