Some advice for a new *old* sculler

[Carol Dailey]

I'm a 52 yrs female, tall, light athlete. I've been paddling small boats, single blade, sit and switch, forward facing for the past seven years, in all kinds of water, at a high level. For some inexplicable reason, I've found myself trying to learn your fine art of rowing, backwards with two very long and large blades :). My story so far...

Due to my race schedule, I missed all of the adult learn-to-rows (and they're all sweep, anyway). So, I hired a coach at a local club and had around ten or so private lessons. Went out the first few times in a double to learn some stroke basics and then to a gig (big, ole' Maas Aero). I have really good balance and boat feel due to all of my water time in skinny, tippy boats, so for the last one or two, I was switched to a Peinert x25. I go out and practice on my own a lot. I wasn't feeling terribly confident in the Peinert and I felt its 10.5" width was inhibiting my learning proper stroke mechanics, so I demoted myself back to the Aero gig. Now I feel much more solid on the basics and feel I should get out of the gig. It's too stable. I think it might set me up for sloppiness when I move up to a skinnier boat, and I think I'm ready for something closer to a single.

My dilemma: The only boat available for a lightweight at my club is that Peinert x25 that I wasn't feeling great about and the water/air is getting cold. Should I bite the bullet and buy a used intermediate boat like a Wintech Explorer 24? From what I can glean, that doesn't seem to be the preferred approach, the idea being one would grow out of it too quickly. I read somewhere that you could use soda bottles (I assume 2 liter?) bungied under the riggers of a single as DIY pontoons, which might be all I need in the Peinert, but I can't locate a photo anywhere. I can't do anything more permanent to the boat because it's a club boat. Anyone have a photo they could post?

Any other suggestions, or should I just keep on rowing the gig until the river freezes? I plan on attending a week long sculling camp in the spring and will get to try different boats there...

Thank you!

Cat
PS- the posts on this group are just amazing. Thank you all who take the time to write. Carl Douglas, I don't always understand what you write, but the little bit I do understand is just amazing. Someone at my club has one of your boats. When I go this week, I'm going to find it :)

[Ellen Braithwaite]

Cat,
I would guess that now having spent more time in a stable boat, you could try the X25 again and that it might feel much better. Don't try to go anywhere at first -- just find the balance point and get comfortable with that.. And there's nothing wrong with going back and forth between the boats, depending on the conditions any given day. If you're where the rivers freeze, that's probably going to happen soon enough that you wouldn't get much out of an intermediate boat right now. One boat to think about, though, is the Maas Flyweight. It's a versatile boat, made for lightweights and for open water. So you wouldn't have to outgrow it -- you could row it in all sorts of conditions and locations. Where do you row?
Ellen

[Henry Law]

On 22/10/14 21:59, Carol Dailey wrote:
> I'm a 52 yrs female

No, ma'am you are not old.

Ellen, and many others here, will give you much better advice than I
ever could, but my welcome is just as warm as theirs, except it's in a
funny accent.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

[sully]

If you have access to the racing hull and to the Aero, stick with both. If the water is still warm enough, be sure you can rescue yourself in either boat, the Aero will be much easier, but be able to do that before water gets cold and learn what your limits are.

Your sense of not buying a 'tweener' boat is a good one. No need to, you can get your sculling work in the Aero, and switch frequently in the narrower hull.

I counsel new scullers in the racing hulls to exaggerate a high release, even adding pauses at the finish, and to relax and allow the boat to fall over to one oar or another each stroke, focusing on RELAX and NOT balance.

Do not try to balance your boat, be consistently high with your releases, focus on relaxing and allow the boat to fall one side or other. This by itself is not going to give you a swim lesson!

the upside is that when your finishes match each other, you will get a lot of positive feedback, the boat balances itself and you will cry out in joy.

well, maybe you won't do that part, but some ppl do. :^)

Over time, as your sculling becomes more consistent, your high releases can drop down to a more reasonable level while acheiving the same effect. Always be able to release high at will, this will help you with rough water.

I agree with Ellen on the flyweight, btw, it's a very popular boat in our club, easy to carry, stable but responsive. You might be too big for it if you are over 160 lbs or so, not sure what 'tall and light' means!

[Carol Dailey]

Oh, wow...great advice from all! And yes, I would fit the Flyweight as well. I'm 5'9" tall and 132 lbs. At my racing weight, I'm usually around 128 lbs. I can't wait to get to a camp where I can try a selection of boats for someone my size.

I never thought to just go back and forth and to "not go anywhere" in the Peinert and just work on my releases. And you all might be right...I might be more comfortable in it now.

My biggest concern about taking out the Peinert is that I'm usually alone. That's why thought the DIY pontoons sounded like a great idea. Just knowing I had that little bit of extra "just in case things go very wrong" stability might make me feel better about it. I row out of Whitemarsh Boat Club on the Schuylkill River in Conshohocken, PA. Most winters, I can stay out in my other boats all winter long in a dry suit and a PFD. Last winter, we had the winter from hell...our normal average 20" of snow went to over 70" and the river froze solid. I think most of the folks in my club stay off of the water in Dec/Jan, but not entirely sure.

Thank you all so much...I love sculling :)

Cat

[Ellen Braithwaite]

Balance is one of those concepts that some rowing coaches will talk about and others will say that considering it is detrimental. Yes, you have to be relaxed but at least (I think) that each hull has a balance point, and if you're relaxed you can find it. Once a very competent paddler in our club asked to try sculling, so I put him in a Maas 24. He was very tense, and struggled his way across the lagoon and back. Mystified and very chagrined, he said that he could balance on a pencil. We decided the oars were a distraction, and that next time he would sit in the boat without oars, and figure out how to stay upright. But, alas, he hasn't tried again. So I don't know if that would have worked.
Ellen

[James HS]

I hear you on the balance thing - you may be used to actively balancing forward facing boats with your mid-section - whereas a sculling boat is about pressure on the feet, and height of the hands even location of your head :)

You may be under boated - a boat sitting to high in the water is more 'tippy'.

The coldness of the water not withstanding (and yes there are plenty of people who use floatation under the riggers - something that is off the water most of the time, but pops down when you roll - but I think you will benefit from what Sully has described and get used to the roll of the boat - it would be like skating on double bladed skates in stead of a single blade - still worth it but you would not learn to master the balance.

I always advice using roll ups to feel (a) the balance of the boat and (b) that if you do then confidently and slowly, with minimal correction you start to discover that the less correction you do, the less tippy the boat is.

Knowing how to get to safety in the cold is vital though - as I row in the UK we rarely have freezing rivers, but as I scull I naturally scan the bank for exit points in case a bad thing happens (we have large debris in the river) - so I am never ore than a short swim away from the bank - but the river has a strong flow and a 5 metre tidal height range - so plan your escape!

But keep telling us the experience as it is addictive - I took it up at 44 and have been mildly obsessed ever since :) - and every year the obsessions becomes 'deeper'!

James

[John Mulholland]

Wintech, among other manufacturers, manufacture pontoons specifically to assist balance, often for rowers with disabilities. If you get an adjustable mounting, you can set them to give you a little assistance or, by setting them lower, more assistance. The link below shows an example.

https://store.wintechracing.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=579

Once you have mastered balance you can sell them on to another novice.

John

[sully]

I use pontoons for the adaptive rowing and paddling, but from my view it's strictly a safety measure. I think if you use them to help keep the boat stable, you don't learn the ability to use your oars properly to control your boat. In a very stable tub single or wherry, a new rower can sit in the boat and let go of the handles and sit the boat comfortably without great fear of tipping out. Yet, if he/she takes a poor stroke, particularly the common first-timer's problem of not getting blade square before pulling, the boat will heel a little to that side and give an appropriate response to the poor stroke.

I add that the safety application for the pontoons is effective, but NOTHING is 100% effective. I've seen the keeper clips come loose (the press-in ball bearing type) we can make mistakes attaching the floats, etc etc.

[Carol Dailey]

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in! And I agree with what everyone has said about "balance." The best paddlers (forward facing folks ;>) learn not to "balance" a boat, but rather to be relaxed in the hips and let the boat roll underneath. We use our feet and hips and head position (yes) to keep upright relative to the horizon, but those tippy boats have to roll! And since we only have one blade, only on one side at a time, we have to have a fine sense of the moment when the blade must lock onto the water to prevent a capsize (or throw a good brace!). I've not had a problem at all in the Aero. I can crank on that boat and just let it bounce all around underneath me while I sort out the oars and my hands. I'm relaxed and have fun in it... but I really want to progress and I don't want to pick up bad habits because I'm always in a very forgiving boat. And besides... it's really slow and it's killing me carrying that big old pig down to the river and back. I have a permanent, gigantic bruise on my right hip from it :>

I've been at this rowing thing since August :> It's really the combination of the length of the oars and the fact that they're behind my eyes for so much of the arc of the stroke, and the whole going backwards thing that is so challenging. I really, really needed to get back into the gig to learn to control my hands in that linear movement pattern and to learn that the height of my hands, relative to each other, relative to my body, and relative to the boat, all have an impact on the movement of the boat. I'm starting to get that better now.

My coach took me out in a double on Tuesday just so we could row together. Because of all of the square blade rowing I've been doing in the Aero, I'm actually squaring up a little too early :> I also have difficulty feathering and squaring slowly... I tend to "clunk." This was the second time I've been out with her in a double. The first time, I couldn't really row at all. This time, I did reasonably well for seven miles, so definite progress. The double was beautiful... so much less inboard overlap with the oars. Evidently, the Aero has a lot of overlap and it can't be changed. And it took me a little while to get the feel for the big wing rigger in front of me. It seemed high. I absolutely loved having someone as great as my coach in bow who can really keep a novice set. I could get a big, long stroke going... now, that will make you hoot out loud with joy :>

I don't know about underboated? The Peinert x25 is supposedly for rowers under 160 pounds. Maybe at 132 I still don't sink it down into the water enough? Is that what underboated means?

And I know about the Wintech pontoons. I can't bolt anything onto the Peinert. It's a club boat and others use it as well as myself. Did I mention the fact that for a lot of the time I was in it, the seat rails were unattached in the front? It was not reassembled properly the last time it had been de-rigged. I finally fixed it myself. It was driving me crazy :> I am still trying to find a photo of DIY pontoons that can be bungied on, though...I could just take them on and off between rows.

You all have convinced me to give the Peinert a go again. The miserable pouring rain of the last two days is moving out. I'll go out in the Aero myself tomorrow for a few hours. Saturday and Sunday I'm going for the Peinert again. It's going to be a balmy 65 F :> I'll take the good advice here and just work on high releases and not worry about going anywhere. Always with an eye towards an escape route from the river.

You all are awesome and I love reading your posts. Thanks for the help!

Cat

[James HS]

>I don't know about underboated? The Peinert x25 is supposedly for rowers >under 160 pounds. Maybe at 132 I still don't sink it down into the water >enough? Is that what underboated means?

Exactly - a boat is designed to sit at a certain height in the water (within a certain weight range) and if you are much lighter than the boat then it will be higher - higher is more tippy, higher rigger means you need to lift your hands more to get a deep enough blade depth and you centre of gravity is just higher.

Now I personally don't think it is a bad thing to be in a boat that highlights your balance - see it as a challenge - but it will feel way more tippy than the Aero and a bit more tippy than if it was your ideal ride.

Ironically these things always improve the faster you go. And the hard thing is thinking and noticing the tippiness too much - makes you too reactive.

You clearly have a good feel for the movement of the boat from your one paddle work - and are finding the adjustments with two that are similar - the individual hand height makes such a difference, but you are still adjusting with individual foot plate pressure, hips etc

You are also probably impatient to get 'better'.


Drills, drills drills which train the body reactions - and time on the water - even if it does not go well - is extremely important.

getting the setup right is important, and too much overlap is difficult - but don't let it annoy you - it is the jonothan livingston seagull principle - when you feel able to let go it will come :)

Love reading about your progress!

James

[Carl]

Just like to clarify a common "terminological inexactitude" ;)

Under-boated means your boat is too small for you. Over-boated means
its bigger than it should be for your weight.

The analogy in common parlance would be folks' confusion in saying,
"Fred's contributions to the outcome can't be underestimated", when the
speaker really means the exact opposite.

As for hull sizes: rather too often the way that hulls are 'sized' for
the smaller customer is by taking the same moulding & reducing its
freeboard by lopping some millimetres off the top/sheerline. That
results in the lighter sculler being closer to the water, which is good,
but the wetted surface area not reducing by as much as it should & the
waterline beam hardly reducing at all. Mmmm.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[nowa...@gmail.com]

Cat,
As a person in a very similar position as you, slightly older, and having just started summer of 2013, I can appreciate how and what you are going thru. Fortunately I have the benefit of a son that has sculled. I am looking forward to doubling up with an experienced sculler, hopefully this November, on the West coast...
That being said, a possible DIY pontoon might be pool "noodles" with a piece of capped pvc conduit/pipe inside for rigidity...
I have enjoyed reading of your posts...

[nowa...@gmail.com]

oops...as well as the free distribution of the vast knowledge and experiences of the rest of the gang here...Much appreciated :)

[martinr...@gmail.com]

Hi. Have a look at www.wraptorbalance.com an additional rigger which clips on to the boat and has height adjustable floats on.

[Carol Dailey]

Thanks for the wraptorbalance link, but that's way more help than what I need :>. I don't need a full on set of training wheels but just a little "what if" help :> And I think the suggestions of pool noodles and pvc pipe might work. It's going to be a moot point until early next week anyway. I got to my boatclub this afternoon (Friday) only to find that the racers took the Peinert and every single oar in the house to the Head of the Schuylkill with nary a thought to us poor novices left behind. AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHHH. I managed to borrow a set of Crokers (we use C2's. I think I liked the Crokers better!) and took out the Aero today. Alas, I am stuck in her through the weekend. Hopefully the Peinert will be home and rigged in time for a Monday afternoon row. I'll let you know how it goes if I can get her.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Cat

[Carol Dailey]

Well, today was the day... finally! Whew! Grabbed my coach and went off in the Peinert. Much, much better outing than the last time I was in it, so I think demoting myself to the gig for a while was an excellent idea. I'm still having issues on the release, but I'm definitely better than I was a month ago, so that's forward progress. Watching videos has been enormously helpful. When I finished up today, my coach and I looked over the Peinert. I suspected it was rigged too low... it was. That might have had a little bit to do with my release issues, but can't blame it entirely on the boat. I need to practice getting my hands away from the finish faster. I'll be out in her again tomorrow and friday as well....

Cat

[Carl]

On 29/10/2014 20:40, Carol Dailey wrote:
> Well, today was the day... finally! Whew! Grabbed my coach and went off in the Peinert. Much, much better outing than the last time I was in it, so I think demoting myself to the gig for a while was an excellent idea. I'm still having issues on the release, but I'm definitely better than I was a month ago, so that's forward progress. Watching videos has been enormously helpful. When I finished up today, my coach and I looked over the Peinert. I suspected it was rigged too low... it was. That might have had a little bit to do with my release issues, but can't blame it entirely on the boat. I need to practice getting my hands away from the finish faster. I'll be out in her again tomorrow and friday as well....
>
> Cat
>

May I make so bold as to suggest, Cat, that if you are getting caught up
at the finish (that's how I interpret your reference to "release") you
will _not_ improve this by trying to get your hands faster there?

Blades do not need forced or hasty extraction. Towards the finish they
are self-extracting - provided you don't force them but, if you have the
blades square & then try to stop their sternwards motion at any point
"in order to extract", they are almost bound to catch.

I've asked previously this week what is the meaning of this "release"
thing, but no one has ventured an answer - perhaps it seemed to obvious
to them, or too difficult to define.

I've said before that the water does not cling to the blade. Crabs at
the finish result either from overhasty pushing of the hands away with
the blade still immersed, from over-feathering at the finish or from
ceasing to pull through to the finish.

The rower's finish does not & simply cannot incorporate a vertical
tap-down (of which we hear so much) - because if it did every stroke
would end in a boat-stopper. You see, as the water keeps moving astern,
the blades must keep doing so too for as long as they are square &
immersed. And the only way to keep the blade moving astern is for the
hands to move towards the bow. So the rowed finish is a diagonal action
- down & towards the bow - & can't be otherwise.

That's not to say the finish need be washy. There's no necessary
connection between that diagonal motion of the hands & premature or
washy extraction.

If you sit at backstops in a moving boat with blades half-square on the
water, you'll see that there's no way those blades can catch. Practice
taking single strokes from & back to that position, absolutely _without_
the slightest finish recoil of the hands, & pulling as hard as you can.
Forget about release, & be amazed at how your blades pop cleanly out.
Take the next stroke after waiting there a couple of seconds or more,
& do so by swinging straight into an uninterrupted catch. See how well
that picks the boat up & how secure you feel.

You're too far away from me to watch you doing this, even standing on a
ladder, but have a play & see if you can discover what I mean.

[Carol Dailey]

Ugh. I wish you could see what I do, because I can't figure it out. I can't do the tap down, either, try as I might. I can't seem to get a separate downward push from the "getting them out" part, but on some strokes, my starboard blade doesn't seem to want to come out of the water. My suspicion is that I'm trying to take out the starboard oar too soon and not finishing it properly. Then sometimes when I finish, both blades kind of slap down on the water. I haven't been working on "fast hands" at all for the last few weeks while in the gig, partly because I've been trying to just row, and partly because a lot of what I read seems to indicate that the whole "fast hands away" thing is not very meaningful.

How to know what to do, or better yet, what to do to fix the problem. <sigh> I'm waiting for another "aha" moment.

Cat

[s...@ku.edu]

Carl,

I won't venture a definition of "release," but will pass on at least what Gordon Hamilton writes. I believe that Gordon has placed "finish" and "catch" on the list of should-be-banned rowing terms and uses "release" and "entry" as substitutes. His description of the "release/finish" involves a pronounced downward push: "Hinge the forearms down without moving the elbows from their horizontal plane. This motion is very similar to how you would lift yourself out of a swimming pool with your hands on the pool deck pointing towards each others.... Do not feather the blade out of the water; come out square" (Nutshell, p. 7).

I quote this, not because I agree with it, but because you asked for someone to clarify the meaning of "release."

Steven

PS My mid 70's Staempfli 2x came to me with the name "Catch," so I'm not about to agree to a ban of that term.

[Carol Dailey]

Yes, most of the literature describes the downward push as a "tap down" of some sort. Gordon describes it as mantling, as if you were on the edge of a pool and trying to raise yourself up out of it. His description relies in part on his "incredible hulk" shoulder and arm position as well. UGH. I can't seem to master it. Off to do battle with the release/finish whatever you call it again today.

Cat

[James HS]

I think that there is a kind of definition of the release which is 'not getting caught'

I think that 'tap down' comes more from rowing coaching than sculling.

when I was first taught to scull I was taught that the tap down had to happen in front of my body .... where there was not a lot of room :)

Then a coach who was actually a sculler helped get me set up right in my rig, so my hands came further back to my rib cage, and was happy for me to feather out.

Sometimes I coach this in slow motion - if you pull through keeping the blades in square then you can get caught if you leave them in too late.

If however as you reach the end of the stroke you begin to feather and gradually push down on your blades you reach a point where you can change handle direction to forwards motion and the blade coming backwards and finishing the feather happen at the same time.

The only time I extract square blade is the first stroke (to keep time with my partner) and when I am square blading - which does still require a good pull through to give me sufficient room.

I am a feather out fan.

I use the word release and extraction interchangeably - sloppy of me and I will desist :)

James

[Carl]

On 30/10/2014 08:38, Carol Dailey wrote:
> Yes, most of the literature describes the downward push as a "tap down" of some sort. Gordon describes it as mantling, as if you were on the edge of a pool and trying to raise yourself up out of it. His description relies in part on his "incredible hulk" shoulder and arm position as well. UGH. I can't seem to master it. Off to do battle with the release/finish whatever you call it again today.
>
> Cat
>

It's the problem with reading too much & listening to all these
"experts"! Athletic actions don't lend themselves to the kinds of
over-rigid mechanistic interpretations which split constantly moving
actions into compartments of doctrinaire fixity.

From the very outset, rowers & scullers are taught to fear their
finishes. As a result, they indulge in all manner of contortions to not
get caught up. Which drives them straight into sticky finishes. Which
"proves" that finishes are the dangerous work of the Devil. The fear it
engenders totally screws up the newbie's finishes, perhaps for ever.
And when they have a few years of sculling under their belts, they'll
pass on those same quaint notions to those whom they, in turn, come to
coach. It's a self-perpetuating nightmare - let me out!

Sorry to be blunt, but talk of having to tap-down is irrational tripe.
I've already explained that the notion of a smart push down completely
overlooks the fundamental fact that the boat is still moving, which in
turn demands the hands _must_ keep moving into the bow if you are
attempting a square blade finish.

And as James indicates, coaches perhaps more versed in rowing tell
scullers that if their hands go back even as far as the torso they'll
risk getting caught at the finish. But sensibly-rigged scullers have
room enough for their hands to brush past their ribs, making them safe
even if they catch a blade on some unexpected object. And, while
today's fashion is for finishes to be out before the hands reach the
body, many outstanding scullers have finished with hands reaching or
passing the side of the ribs.

And, you are safest & most stable in a moving shell with your feathered
blades in that fully-backstops position. So you've nothing to fear
about the finish save what you force yourself to do wrongly out of
inculcated fear.

One last throw:
You've heard us talk about part-feathered finishes? I'll be explaining
the fluid dynamics of the rowing stroke in a certain magazine in a
couple of months' time or so. But a slight feather coupled with a
rising blade effectively sustains power to the very finish than trying
to keep the blade square until it's clear. And, if you fail to sustain
the load to the finish, that slight feather helps the blade out &
prevents it from diving if you check your bow-wards hand movement in a
futile attempt at a square tap-down.

Kids have no difficulty in sculling & rowing small boats of all kinds,
because they are natural athletes have read no books on how to row & no
one tells them they're doing it wrong. Water is a fluid & fluid flows
abhor sharp corners, so do your rowing with fluidity & cut out those
doctrinaire corners. Once you are good at it, you have the skill to get
away with almost any doctrinal silliness & start telling others "You
must do this" because you mistakenly think that's the trick that makes
your rowing so special.

[Carol Dailey]

Carl:

Thank you so much. You have no idea how helpful this is. I am going to work on this today. I will get it! I'm going to ignore my coach's advice for the moment about tap down and square blades out and fast hands and finish farther back if I can, partially feather, and try to get that nice slip of the blade out of the water. And you are 100% correct about the fear factor. I think we fear what we don't know more than anything else :).

Unfortunately, for the moment, I seem to never be in a properly rigged boat. The boats available to us novices are horrendous and are in disrepair. Broken seats, unattached seat tracks, oar lock spacers missing, rigged all funky. The inboard oar length on all of our oars doesn't really work for the gigs we have and we have no dedicated gig oars. There are no intermediate boats...either a 20 something inch wide maas aero or a 10.5" wide peinert. Yesterday AFTER my coached row my coach told me the boat was rigged wrong (all of the spacers above the oarlock). I am at maximum forward setting for the foot stretchers and still hit the front stops. Aaaarrggggghhhhh :(

I am really looking forward to your upcoming article.

Keep your fingers crossed,

Cat

[wmar...@gmail.com]

One thing I've found very helpful when helping crews, scullers, and other coaches figure out the "finish" or "release" is to have them think of "rowing the blades out" (over a very short distance) and also "take the blades out of the water" rather than "push the handles down".

If you're thinking of "taking the blades out of the water" (at the same time, while finishing off the push on the water with the blades, at the same speed, and to the same height off the water) your computer...er... brain... will tell the hands how to make the blades do what you're trying to do.

If you think about "pushing the handles down" you'll likely not pay attention to the blades doing their thing and acting as a split balance pole. Any up/down motion of one hand that's not countered by the other hand affects the boat. This is largely because the centre of mass of the blade is outboard of the rigger, and you're sitting on a (nearly) round-bottomed boat... To test this, imagine you're a rigger for a moment - hold onto a scull right at the button/collar, and have a friend or your coach move the handle up and down with the blade in the air - hold the hand still, don't let it move... right... now, imagine that vertical force on a rigger, with one person moving one handle out of synch with all the others, great big turning moment on the rigger, and the boat tips...

HTH
Walter

[LakeGator]

Cat,

Carl has given you excellent advice, of course. The things I wish to add to his great points are 4 inter related points:

1. Relaxing in the boat is vital. This can be very difficult, obviously which takes us to point 2:
2. Miles and miles on the water help you develop the muscle memory for these things and help you feel more comfortable in the boat.
3. Most people focus far too much on boat rigging when the most adjustable part of the vehicle is the rower.
4. Rowing is a major paradox; it requires thinking about what you are doing and doing it right but it is far too easy to think too much.
Rinse and repeat.

You sound like you're on the right track and we all wish you great fun!
Don Vickers

[sully]

I haven't had time this round to keep up with this thread, I've weighed in heavily on finishes before and for many years!

If you are simply feathering to "release", you have already washed out.
To simply feather to release means the the shaft is at the water level, you cannot feather a buried blade without getting caught.

Carl correctly describes that the path of the handle drops toward the end of the stroke, the differences is the rate of drop. If the handle drops more gradually, the sculler has to let up on pressure to keep the blade from washing, this is what almost all people do to scull who've never been taught a thing, it's the easiest way to extract, it's simply a less effective finish since you are giving up some six inches of drive where the blade is efficient.

The motion to extraction should be quick and relaxed, yes the blade feathers nearly simultaneously, but the FIRST motion is downward, and there should still be load on the blade as you are making that motion.

We coaches do teach to think of it like a corner, but it isn't really. the path is rounded. The downward motion should be as quick as the catch motion.

Years back I posted a vid of two lightweight doubles rowing side by side. One double had finishes where the hands dropped to release, the second double had very flat finishes where the blades feathered out. There was no mistake that neither double was getting caught in the water, but the double that was more quickly pressing down and keeping handles higher during drive and NOT releasing flat was keeping blades in demonstrably longer.

When new scullers are getting caught at the finish, the likely culprit is not necessarily learning to finish well as lots and LOTS AND LOTS of scullers who go pretty fast, look beautiful on the water, wash out at the finish The culprit is usually too tight a grip, resulting in uncertain oar seating in the oarlock or too early feathering.

I'm slammed here, weigh in later!

[Carl]

Sully -

The problem here is that when I wave my hands you can't see them & nor
can Cat. So I think you interpret what I say about feathered finishes
without seeing what I see?

Every rower has their head rammed full of dos & don'ts, even the most
open-minded, so when I say "tomartoes", you still hear it as
"tomaytoes". To see this thing properly with the other guy's eyes we
have to let go of our preconceptions - & that includes me of mine,
except that this is a story that I'm trying to tell so for this moment
I'll be selfish ;)

I don't have time to address this issue further right now, but will be
back maybe tomorrow, maybe in a break in spraying tonight, but nobody
should hold their breath 'cos I've got to try to find the right way to
explain what I have in mind & a mere brain-dump won't do it.

[Carol Dailey]

Hey, wait a minute :>>> I completely understand the feathering out. Carl doesn't need to wave his hands. I'm pretty sure I understand it. And when I watched that beautiful video of the Sinkovic? brothers and stop-framed it, I think they are partially feathering out. The top of the blade pops up but then the rest feathers out. During some strokes, there is a noticeable flip up of water from the bottom half of the blade (maybe not desirable???)

Here's the good news. Went out today. Wow, was I nervous alone in the Peinert on a chilly day with the water getting colder and only my second time back in this boat. First lap....SUCKED (sorry for the language) big time. But interestingly, I wasn't getting caught at the finishes. I think a lot of it had to do with the rigging. I know some of you guys say don't get caught up in it the details yet, but I went from: starboard-all six spacers on top of the oarlock to 5 under, 1 over; port-1 under, 5 over to 3 under and 3 over (these are the thin white spacers not big yellow ones, but still-over an inch on starboard). What a HUGE difference. I think I simply didn't have enough room to get that oar out of the water!

Second lap... felt better, but still having trouble with the feather, but having problems setting the catch, which is what drove me out of this boat and back to the gig in the first place. Thought back to a video that Charlotte Hollings (Calm Waters Rowing) has up about the wrist angle at the finish and at the catch. It's hard to pick up what she says as the video and audio quality drop right there, but yes, I watched a few of her videos having to do with catch/finish yesterday. And when I say wrist angle, I mean on the horizontal plane. I was so caught up in the rolling the oar out to the fingers at the finish and squeezing back into the hand at the catch, that I never thought about the hand moving in the other plane. (Frankly, I don't think anyone ever taught it to me) . What an enormous difference! Hallelujah!!! It even made it easy to slowly squeeze into square blades before the catch instead of just clunking into it. Focused on getting the finish out and the catch set correctly. Still not up to high standards by any means, but progress!

Third lap...you guys are so going to laugh at me. YES a 10.5' wide boat is incredibly stable. That boat just wanted to run flat. As long as I didn't do anything too wacky on the finish or the catch, the boat just RAN :>

Keep up these great discussions, pretty please :> You have no idea how much they're helping.

Thank you!

Cat

[Carol Dailey]

Update from the land of the noobie rower...

Yesterday I had the opportunity to row a Swift that was dropped off at our club by the rep for us to try out. It is noticeably wider than the Peinert. The boat is too large for me. It's the size for 145-180? pound people. When I got in it, I didn't even sink it down into the water a bit :> But, oh my! What an easy boat to row! I had sooooo much fun. I was able to mess about with different drills and could get my oars off of the water a little bit, and even rowed a few strokes square blades by accident :> I really, really wish my club owned some more of these intermediate type boats (though I don't think Swift would say this was an intermediate boat).

I just found out that my club prohibits rowing alone if the water temp is below 45 degrees (F) or the combined water and air temp is below 90. Water is already down to 50. UGH! I won't have too many rowing days left this year. <sigh>

Cat

[James HS]

>I just found out that my club prohibits rowing alone if the water temp is below >45 degrees (F) or the combined water and air temp is below 90. Water is already >down to 50. UGH! I won't have too many rowing days left this year. <sigh>

Really pleased to hear that - we live to row - but it is not worth dying for!

If you end up indoors on a rowing machine try to get onto a dynamic erg or an erg on slides as this will help you to maintain the best (water) power distribution - even better if you can put a wobbly (core perform) seat on it!

James

[Carol Dailey]

I would agree but I have a dry suit and use it. I'll be paddling my other two boats all winter unless the river freezes, as it did last winter. I have a full-on dry suit and I wear a PFD on top (not my inflatable waist pack, but the real deal). With the proper equipment, being on the water doesn't have to be life threatening. Oh, well. I'll resign myself to my outrigger and my C1 ;). And we will have coached erg sessions. First one is tonight and I'll be there! I've never used sliders before, but I know we have lots, so I'll ask to use them. Thanks for that advice;)

Cat

[James HS]

Cat,

You are experienced at being on the water in cold temperatures and tippy craft so I would think you would be safe - a second hand boat might be useful :) (I am lucky in London that we row all year round - it was sold this morning (0 degrees C) but I snuck in a scull :)

Ergs on slides are great because they punish poor power application - and you draw the erg under you like you draw the boat under you. Different in that the erg is heavier than the boat, but at least you are no chucking your body-weight back and forth.

Responds well to good technique!

James

[John Greenly]

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 7:38:49 AM UTC-5, Carol Dailey wrote:
> I would agree but I have a dry suit and use it. I'll be paddling my other two boats all winter unless the river freezes, as it did last winter. I have a full-on dry suit and I wear a PFD on top (not my inflatable waist pack, but the real deal). With the proper equipment, being on the water doesn't have to be life threatening. Oh, well. I'll resign myself to my outrigger and my C1 ;). And we will have coached erg sessions. First one is tonight and I'll be there! I've never used sliders before, but I know we have lots, so I'll ask to use them. Thanks for that advice;)
>
> Cat

I have a friend who tried a dry suit sculling and almost expired from the confined heat- he fell in on purpose to cool off and floated happily around on his back like the Michelin Man at a beach party in Antarctica.

There is another option, a boat that is non-capsizable in reasonable conditions: a wherry, whitehall, etc., wider than your Aero and with a lot of reserve stability. There are a number of them around, wide enough to keep you absolutely reliably above water (unless you hit something solid and spring a leak!) but still responsive, some only perhaps 15% slower than a racing shell, at least for ordinary mortals. You can get just as hard a workout in them as you could want, and they are great for working on technique, you can work up your bladework as smooth and sophisticated as you like without worrying about staying on top, and I think it actually helps to be going a bit slower because that slows down your motion during the drive. I guarantee that when spring comes and you get back into your racing shell, you would be way ahead.

I have three boats (...never too many boats!!), a Peinert X25, a Maas Flyweight for open water racing and training, and my wherry, in this case one I designed myself (18.5 ft long, 21 inch beam at the waterline, 31 inch maximum beam) that I can row all through the coldest seasons as long as there is not too much ice on the shore to get to the water. All three are great boats. I love the feather-light feeling and sensitive balance of the Peinert best, but when it gets really bumpy the Maas is an absolute delight and very nearly as fast, and when the whitecaps rise, bashing around and surfing on the waves in the wherry is maybe the most fun of all.

Cheers,
John G

[Carol Dailey]

John:

Your boat sounds like a hoot and I had read another one of your posts where you described building it. Wonderful! And I don't know what your friend had on, but most of what is on the market are kayaking wetsuits. They are indeed, hot, but need to be to protect kayakers in a roll. The drysuit that I have is equally safe, but much, much more comfortable to work out in. And my club won't even let private owners take their craft out, so no good to me there. I have to go to my other club, a canoe club, and take out my paddling boats (C1, OC1). Both of them are very tippy, but I don't really worry too much as long as I'm dressed safely.

Enjoy your rowing in your awesome wherry!

I'm jealous,

Cat

[John Greenly]

My friend had on a full drysuit, thoroughly ridiculous looking, floated nicely.

Cat, I'm not going to let you give up so easily!! Rowing in cold, crisp weather is a great pleasure.

One low-cost and very satisfactory option exists if you have access to an ordinary canoe. A nice long kevlar one would be best, but any will do. Then you can put in a Piantedosi drop-in rowing rig. I have three friends who use versions of this rig. The rig is extremely well-made, smooth, rigid, super-durable. Gary Piantedosi, an ex-olympic oarsman and MIT-trained engineer, developed these many years ago and they have stood the test of time. With this a light canoe, the narrower and tippier the better, makes a surprisingly fast and responsive rowing boat. Alden handles them now, and

http://rowalden.com/product/row-wing-scout-rig/

is where you can find out about this. In warm weather this lets you row on rough open water very nicely. Adding those long oars increases the seaworthiness of even the tippiest canoe so that it can handle surprisingly rough conditions with ease. With some canoe flotation bags for safety you could do races like the Blackburn Challenge, one of the greatest rowing adventures you can imagine.

Cheers,
John G

[nowa...@gmail.com]

Cat,
Not sure if this is still on your radar, but i came across a video of a similar endeavor. Skip to about 3 minutes in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BnYDoBB4Wg

[Carol Dailey]

Wow! Thanks for the link. Now, why didn't I think of the foam roller.. DOH! Thank you :>

[nowa...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 7:02:22 PM UTC-5, Carol Dailey wrote:
> Wow! Thanks for the link. Now, why didn't I think of the foam roller.. DOH! Thank you :>

Now if I find out you converted your single into a fishing boat... :)

[nowa...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 7:02:22 PM UTC-5, Carol Dailey wrote:

> Wow! Thanks for the link. Now, why didn't I think of the foam roller.. DOH! Thank you :>

I do not know the seller, but these might work well:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wintech-Pontoons-Rowing-shell-training-trainer-pontoons-pair-great-condition-/381054263377?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b89aa051

[sully]

What I thought to be a fascinating part of my phone with Conn today was listening to him on finishes.

He believes there need be no downward movement of the handle at the finish.

There were two very interesting things he described.

1. When he was in Tokyo preparing for the racing, they were out doing pieces on the course. Vesper was on the course with them. When they were rowing at a cruise pace on the course, they were amazed to find themselves overtaking the eight. He was astounded that they rowed so lightly at the paddle. He told me that there's no way he could make a clean finish rowing that lightly, the it depended upon the oar bend to make a clean finish.

I remember Karl Adam making a point in his clinics which had gotten to Dietrich and Rosenberg in the early 60s, the concept of the light paddle in between intervals. Good technical rowing at a very slow pace.

This was new to American crews.

Conn reminded me of this, and seems to be a component of my understanding of their rowing that I missed. Power all the time, that to make the flat finish, they insisted they needed enough power for the oar to bend.

Conn described a really important part of his finish. I'm having trouble visualizing how it works, but it's the concept that at one part of the finish, the blade tip and handle are moving in the same direction.

yes, moving in the same direction.

I had trouble getting my head around this and closed my eyes.

This ties in with the Pococks often describing the finish as cracking the whip.

This is also consistent with how a coaching colleague had been coaching his guys to finish where he had been taught by Jimmie Beggs, another well regarded Pocock coach, and architect of some very fast UCLA crews in the late 60's.

So according to Conn, the handle begins to move away while the blade is still unbending. I didn't take time to challenge him, I need pencil and paper with this concept, but I would take a guess that the pin is providing the resistance to the release of energy by the oar, rather than what I think, is that it's being wasted by the handle moving forward while the blade is doing that.

I believe that Duvall would disagree as well, he spoke of holding/squeezing the handle at the finish while it uncorks.

This maybe explains the 'fast hands' of the conibear style.

It's consistent with what I've said in the past, that these oars were very flexibile, and with the thin blades, I could visualize that the finish would be effective and very different than what we do with wider blades and stiffer shafts.

I didn't quite see it in this depth, though, and my time rowing with the pencil blades amounted to a few months when I was learning to row, and we were learning the Adam style.

Conn made it clear that there was a pocket behind the blade that you released through.

I'm trying my best mostly to represent Conn's POV accurately, and when I take a trip out to delta soon, I'll get more in depth with this.

Conn did say that Stan told him he'd only coached one rower that had a perfect finish and it wasn't him. I didn't ask who.

When people talk about Cunningham and Sculler at Ease, the Pococks are the source of this line of thinking in rowing, the scullers catch, the flat finishes, etc.

Conn, Jimmy, Duvall, and Frank are simply different branches stemming from the same root, and indeed the basis of American rowing technique for the big boats in the first half of the last century.

[marko....@gmail.com]

Interesting you mention this. I have spent most of the summer trying to learn a good solid finish. When I get it right the blades 'auto-release' popping out and clear together with no real wash or splash; this requires me to keep good pressure through the extraction and NOT try and tap down or (consciously) do anything to take the blades out - just keep pulling in on the fingers.

At light pressures if I don't still get good deliberate acceleration through the finish from the last of the legs, body rock and arms, I don't get sufficient pressure and the blades don't 'auto-release' and I end up pulling further and further by laying back more hoping they will come out! I have also observed this with the few scullers I see that have a strong finish; they always make sure to get good pressure through the finish at low pressures.

I'd love to get a gopro on the rigger shooting 100fps video and compare to see what is actually going on.

[jhmb...@gmail.com]

Really interesting to follow how an experienced kayaker has got on with sculling. Here are a few points that might help a bit, Cat.

1. If your shell is too big, its bad news. Check the height of the lowest point of the centreline of the seat over the waterline, with you sat in it. It should be no more than 10cm. You can try lowering the seat if it is higher than this, but to be honest it is better to just get a smaller shell.

2. If no one else at the club is interested in rigging a boat properly, then you might want to take an interest in it yourself! It is a real eye-opener to measure shells accurately: you will find all sorts of problems. A proper height meter is crucial (empacher sell a good one). Digital pipe levels are handy for measuring pitch and lateral pitch at the pin.

3. If you borrow a boat and it feels right, take the trouble to measure it. (For starters: span, height, height differential, pin pitch, lateral pitch, pitch at the blade, overall scull length, inboard.) Keep a record of these measurements. After a while, you will start to recognise what numbers 'fit' you.

4. Finishes. you could go on for pages about them! One thing helped me more than anything: keep your elbows out and high as you come to the finish. Then, as your hands start to drop to extract the blades, they naturally keep the handles moving towards the bow during the extraction (because the elbows are higher than the hands: think about the geometry).

Enjoy your sculling!

James

[Carol Dailey]

Thank you so much James! And I'm an experienced single blade paddler (not that it matters), not a kayaker ;). Soooooo..... I'm not sure how much or in what thread I've posted, but I ended up demoting myself to the Maas Aero for pretty much the last month or so of the rowing I did. I felt it was way more important to actually try to get the movement pattern better under control before I headed for the skinny single. One day I did have the luxury of taking out a brand new Swift mid weight, and despite being over boated, I could actually row that boat!

I spent the last months of my season (September after the Na Wahine O Ke Kai through Nov 20) rowing (or whatever it is that I'm doing out there ;>) for about two hours a day. I'm to the point where I can basically row the crap out of the Aero. I can hang on the oars and practically stand up in it.

Nov 20 I had my right hand operated on, and Dec 12 was my left. They're coming along well and I've kept in good shape and hope to be able to start lightly erging around mid January. My goal is to try to get on the water a bit in February and spent the first week of March at Gordon Hamilton's rowing camp in Florida. Hopefully I'll get to try some boats out there as well as learn a lot about rigging while I'm at it. For now, I wouldn't even know what "feels good" in a boat-not enough experience yet. And I'm hoping to learn what a good release looks like as well. I've cleared my summer calendar of a lot of stuff so I can focus on rowing.

Happy New Year!

Cat