Oars for open water: Hatchets or Macon?
Dennis M. Whelan
sculling for several years in a Van Dusen with C2 Hatchets. I'd like to
hear from RSR readers if there would be a disadvantage to using the
hatchets in the Ocean. Would the swell and chop behoove me to get a pair
of Macons for using at sea?
dko...@ricochet.net
as
that is all i have now. i think macans would probably be better, but don't
know
how much better. you would get better clearance, thaqt is for sure...
dan
Dennis M. Whelan wrote in message <38920EB5...@bap.ucsb.edu>...
Nick Suess
Dennis M. Whelan <dennis...@bap.ucsb.edu> wrote in message
news:38920EB5...@bap.ucsb.edu...
> I just purchased my first open water boat, a Maas 24. I have been
> sculling for several years in a Van Dusen with C2 Hatchets. I'd like to
> hear from RSR readers if there would be a disadvantage to using the
> hatchets in the Ocean. Would the swell and chop behoove me to get a pair
> of Macons for using at sea?
That's an interesting new thread, Dennis.
In addition to the 19 litre cocktail mixer, I also distribute Aldens in
Australia, and they have been promoting to me their "Deltor" blades for open
water rowing. These have a blade roughly in the shape of a small equilateral
triangle. Quite frankly I can't see the purpose of this, unless it is just
in case Queequeg should wander along to the estuary of the Piscataqua river
and find himself in need of a couple of harpoons.
These are made by Dreher, and come very expensive, and I have thus far
abstained from handling them, and instead sell Braca cleavers to Alden
customers.
Could anyone give us some useful information on the relative merits or
demerits of these oars?
Nick Suess
Scull Success Australasia
PO Box 126, Bayswater, WA 6933,
AUSTRALIA
Phone: +61 (0)8 9271 0466
Fax: + 61 (0)8 9271 0455
Mobile: +61 (0) 412 412 118
Website: www.scull.com.au
E-mail: ni...@scull.com.au
Ken
water. They seem to recover better. Not a big difference tho.
Ken
(to reply via email
remove "zz" from address)
Steven Maynard-Moody
sculls -- very early C2 macons with the wooden handles and C2
smoothies. I prefer the smoothies for both shells in all conditions. I
have rowed the open water shell in very rough water with the smoothies.
My preference, however, may have more to do with the improved balance
and feel of the newer sculls. I've never compared newer macons with my
smoothies.
I have also rowed in Alden's Isle of Shoals race (15 miles of open ocean
rowing) with a borrowed pair of smoothies. Most of the rowers used the
Deltor blades that Nick describes. I think the idea behind these
curious blades is with their long shaft and very small blade surface
they are nimble in rough water and don't overload your back in the
heavier, slower ocean shell.
And on the earlier thread about C2 ads: without random assignment of
oars the only way to effectively rule out selection bias would be to
randomly sample (given the dominant use of C2's, a disproportionate
stratified sample) from a large population of rowers. All tests of
statistical significance require random error distributions (central
limits theorem -- see even us non engineers have technical terms) and
adequate statistical power. I personally don't take C2's (or
Empacher's) ads about their prevalence among medal winners as a
scientific claim that they are faster but rather as evidence that many
top rowers, for what ever rational or irrational reasons, choose their
product.
Steven M-M
tom condon
> Hi all !
>
> Steven Maynard-Moody wrote:
> >
> > I have two shells -- a 1x and an open water shell -- and two set of
> > sculls -- very early C2 macons with the wooden handles and C2
> > smoothies. I prefer the smoothies for both shells in all conditions. I
> > have rowed the open water shell in very rough water with the smoothies.
> > My preference, however, may have more to do with the improved balance
> > and feel of the newer sculls. I've never compared newer macons with my
> > smoothies.
> >
> > I have also rowed in Alden's Isle of Shoals race (15 miles of open ocean
> > rowing) with a borrowed pair of smoothies. Most of the rowers used the
> > Deltor blades that Nick describes. I think the idea behind these
> > curious blades is with their long shaft and very small blade surface
> > they are nimble in rough water and don't overload your back in the
> > heavier, slower ocean shell.
> >
> Having *twice* seriously pulled muscles in the side of my back while
> using hatchets in the last 7 months (once on each side), I'm returning
> to Macons.
>
> My theory is that even in mildly rough water you risk sideways boat
> rotation at the catch if you are rigged slightly undersquare or are not
> square at blade entry, at exactly the time when your back muscles are at
> their most vulnerable, i.e. when they are contracting. Further, that
> this standard problem is exacerbated by hatchets. I believe it depends
> also on your stretcher setting / span, i.e. how much your right hand
> clears your body by at the finish.
>
> I used wooden hatchets (offset shovels) made by Sargent and Burton of
> Sydney, from 1963-1966.
>
> Regards, David Walker
David, Iam responding because I row the same shells and have had had
similar experiences. I have also rowed the Isle of Shoals many times and
regularly row a racing shell with smoothies. I can tell you what helped me.
Crunches to strengthen the as , yoga to loosen all opposing muscle groups,.
The CII Smoothie corrects a lot of errors automatically for you and I would
;highly recommend you try it before you buy anything else. I should also add
that I have had people pass me using Deltor blades rowing same hull . It is
prsumed that you ar rigged properly.
David K Walker
Freewheeling
Re: "And on the earlier thread about C2 ads: without random assignment of
oars the only way to effectively rule out selection bias would be to
randomly sample (given the dominant use of C2's, a disproportionate
stratified sample) from a large population of rowers."
OK, fair enough. But we are assuming that the distribution of rowing
prowess is not normal across brands. I was thinking that there ought to be
some way to test that assumption, by looking at their history for instance,
but perhaps I'm wrong. If the better teams or oarsmen tend to use certain
brands then it might be really hard to extricate the two variables, and the
imposition of an experimental methodology would be the only way to do it.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
Steven Maynard-Moody <stev...@lark.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:389304BB...@lark.cc.ukans.edu...
> I have two shells -- a 1x and an open water shell -- and two set of
> sculls -- very early C2 macons with the wooden handles and C2
> smoothies. I prefer the smoothies for both shells in all conditions. I
> have rowed the open water shell in very rough water with the smoothies.
> My preference, however, may have more to do with the improved balance
> and feel of the newer sculls. I've never compared newer macons with my
> smoothies.
>
> I have also rowed in Alden's Isle of Shoals race (15 miles of open ocean
> rowing) with a borrowed pair of smoothies. Most of the rowers used the
> Deltor blades that Nick describes. I think the idea behind these
> curious blades is with their long shaft and very small blade surface
> they are nimble in rough water and don't overload your back in the
> heavier, slower ocean shell.
>
Freewheeling
Re: "I can tell you what helped me.
Crunches to strengthen the as ,..."
I can think of some better exercises for strengthening that area, butt now
I'm really curious about your rowing technique...
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
tom condon <tco...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:38931647...@erols.com...
> David K Walker wrote:
>
> > Hi all !
> >
> > Steven Maynard-Moody wrote:
> > >
> > > I have two shells -- a 1x and an open water shell -- and two set of
> > > sculls -- very early C2 macons with the wooden handles and C2
> > > smoothies. I prefer the smoothies for both shells in all conditions.
I
> > > have rowed the open water shell in very rough water with the
smoothies.
> > > My preference, however, may have more to do with the improved balance
> > > and feel of the newer sculls. I've never compared newer macons with
my
> > > smoothies.
> > >
> > > I have also rowed in Alden's Isle of Shoals race (15 miles of open
ocean
> > > rowing) with a borrowed pair of smoothies. Most of the rowers used
the
> > > Deltor blades that Nick describes. I think the idea behind these
> > > curious blades is with their long shaft and very small blade surface
> > > they are nimble in rough water and don't overload your back in the
> > > heavier, slower ocean shell.
> > >
> > Having *twice* seriously pulled muscles in the side of my back while
> > using hatchets in the last 7 months (once on each side), I'm returning
> > to Macons.
> >
> > My theory is that even in mildly rough water you risk sideways boat
> > rotation at the catch if you are rigged slightly undersquare or are not
> > square at blade entry, at exactly the time when your back muscles are at
> > their most vulnerable, i.e. when they are contracting. Further, that
> > this standard problem is exacerbated by hatchets. I believe it depends
> > also on your stretcher setting / span, i.e. how much your right hand
> > clears your body by at the finish.
> >
> > I used wooden hatchets (offset shovels) made by Sargent and Burton of
> > Sydney, from 1963-1966.
> >
> > Regards, David Walker
>
Nick Suess
I would
> ;highly recommend you try it before you buy anything else. I should also
add
> that I have had people pass me using Deltor blades rowing same hull . It
is
> prsumed that you ar rigged properly.
So that's a positive plug for the Deltor. Anybody else with any comment
about that blade?
As for the C2 Smoothie, I assume that it is the ridge or lip along the top
that is providing this "automatic error correction" that you refer to. Is
that right, Tom?
Braca also make a blade with this feature, which they call the "Wing Blade",
but because of Braca's moulding technique, they are able to produce a much
more pronounced lip than can be achieved with C2's method. I use these Braca
"Wings" myself, and really like them, but haven't yet tried them on open
water conditions. Maybe I should.
Cfuerst
sold by the Alden Co. I can give you some background on the blade shape.
Durham Boat Co. makes Dreher oars and sculls as you know. We have for several
years also have made the Alden oars using a design and process conceived by Doug
Martin, the son of the creator of the original Alden Ocean Shell, Arthur
Martin. Over 20 years ago Doug did an intensive study of blade shapes and
oar design. His research into aerodynamics and hydrodynamics led to a
progression of some of the strangest blade shapes and oar configurations ever
seen. The Deltor blade shape was the final production result of that research.
He presented a paper at a USRA convention explaining his rational behind the
design about 8 years ago. I also had heard rumor that the former GDR rowing
research group FES had tested his previous design "Douglas Feathor" and judged
the shape very efficient. The key design feature is the completely smooth back
blade surface which you know from previous threads on this subject with
contributions from Carl Douglas is the control surface and a contributor to
hydraulic lift due to its curvature. The second feature of the Deltor design is
the "delta" shaped tip which Doug claimed was more efficient than a flat leading
edge. ( This may have some bearing on Carl Douglas experiments with cutting off
the top edge of a hatchet shape) The third feature was that it was
unsymetrical - predating the hatchet by ten years - in order to present a
balanced trajectory as the blade went out and back relative to the boat. There
have been probably 10,000 total pair of these oars produced both by Alden and us
since we took over the manufacturer a few years ago. I cannot attest to first
hand experience in open water rowing with these sculls. I tend to seek the
smoothest water possible and have never done any open water rowing. However
there are many Alden owners who have used no other set of sculls than these and
find them very easy to use. I think that the fact that they are very light,
somewhat flexible, have a smaller blade area and are 3 meters long gives a
handling ease and stability due to the length that is ideal for the typical
Alden owner. I was intrigued by the shape and adapted a pair to our Dreher
competition shafts to look for speed advantage with the shorter, stiffer shaft.
I was disappointed that the blade shape proved slower than the current big blade
shape, but I think that the blade was just too small. A proper test would be to
increase the surface area equal or slightly smaller that the current big blade
shape and then see what results. If I can find Doug's original publication I
will post it.
Jim Dreher
MElsen
Smoothies with my Maas 24 in various open water venues. Although the
differences are VERY subtle, I prefer the Smoothies. Why? I guess because
they feel a bit more "responsive" when dealing with wave strikes during
recovery in chop while still giving a solid balance and positive "lock" at the
catch. The only difficulty that I've had with them is that they require(d)
more mental and physical effort to keep from washing out at the last little bit
of the stroke even in smooth water. I'm open to suggestions for improvement.
My macons have been hanging in my garage for well over a year. Humm ...
Hey, if after all the inputs, you decide that you need a pair of macons, these
have a winning track record in rec class races and are available.
Cheers,
Morris
Felipe
even I am not willing to go that far just to check the varacity of C2's ad
...
Freewheeling <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
news:4rQk4.10228$_G1.1...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> Steven:
>
> Re: "And on the earlier thread about C2 ads: without random assignment of
> oars the only way to effectively rule out selection bias would be to
> randomly sample (given the dominant use of C2's, a disproportionate
> stratified sample) from a large population of rowers."
>
> OK, fair enough. But we are assuming that the distribution of rowing
> prowess is not normal across brands. I was thinking that there ought to
be
> some way to test that assumption, by looking at their history for
instance,
> but perhaps I'm wrong. If the better teams or oarsmen tend to use certain
> brands then it might be really hard to extricate the two variables, and
the
> imposition of an experimental methodology would be the only way to do it.
>
> --
> -Scott Talkington
> freewh...@bigfoottail.com
> Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
>
> Steven Maynard-Moody <stev...@lark.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
> news:389304BB...@lark.cc.ukans.edu...
> > I have two shells -- a 1x and an open water shell -- and two set of
> > sculls -- very early C2 macons with the wooden handles and C2
> > smoothies. I prefer the smoothies for both shells in all conditions. I
> > have rowed the open water shell in very rough water with the smoothies.
> > My preference, however, may have more to do with the improved balance
> > and feel of the newer sculls. I've never compared newer macons with my
> > smoothies.
> >
> > I have also rowed in Alden's Isle of Shoals race (15 miles of open ocean
> > rowing) with a borrowed pair of smoothies. Most of the rowers used the
> > Deltor blades that Nick describes. I think the idea behind these
> > curious blades is with their long shaft and very small blade surface
> > they are nimble in rough water and don't overload your back in the
> > heavier, slower ocean shell.
> >
Carel Rijnders
MElsen wrote in message:
>I have owned and rowed both Maas Ultralight Macons and C II Ultralight
>Smoothies with my Maas 24 in various open water venues. Although the
>differences are VERY subtle, I prefer the Smoothies.
Can anyone tell me the secret of Smoothies? Why were they invented?
Greetings
Carel
RNZWSCIZRS
I use in my racing single, but for rowing into wind and chop my old standard
weight macons clear the waves better without "flying" on the recovery...jack
Ransom Weaver
rough conditions, namely that you can feel which way is up on the blade
due to the assymetry. I can relax my hands in rough water and even if the blade
is smacked by a wave, I can instantly feel if the blade has been rotated
and how far. And just by turning the handle with a very relaxed grip, the blade
will find square. In fact, I think its this feature which causes hatchets be
easier to row than macons in all conditions, and levels the ground somewhat
(in racing) between rowers of different technical abilities.
Ransom Weaver
PS I rowed macons for ~ 8 yrs before hatchets came along.
GHP
Ransom Weaver wrote in message <8775md$icl$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
I feel the same way. I was going to buy macons for my Dolphin, which I row
in some pretty rough waters in the bay off Provincetown MA. The general
consensus was don't, buy hatchets (which I already use in the racing
single.) I did, and I'm quite happy, even in the rough water and wind.
Gary
Dennis M. Whelan
Felipe
> Thats the answer I was looking for. Thanks .
Interestingly, at least two other people posted differing views (namely that
hatchets are always better). Sounds like you really weren't looking for
information so much as agreement.
Dennis M. Whelan
opposing as they are. This one made the most sense to me, and I regret any
tinge of a forgone conslusion, because never having rowed in the ocean, I had
none.
Felipe
message, etc.news:38985909...@bap.ucsb.edu...
edgar cove
<rnzws...@aol.com> writes
>When the sea is smooth and the winds are light I prefer the ultralight hatchets
>I use in my racing single, but for rowing into wind and chop my old standard
>weight macons clear the waves better without "flying" on the recovery...jack
I believe it is inefficient to change between blade types like that and
if you persevered with the ultralight hatchets you would find that in
time you would have no problem in handling them in any conditions where
you are likely to be out there sculling. When I changed to them I found
it took about 3 months before I was comfortable in all conditions,
although in some conditions 'comfortable' is perhaps not quite the
correct word whatever blades you are using...
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
GHP
edgar cove wrote in message ...
Interesting about the 3 months before being comfortable with different
blades. When I bought my ultra-light hatchets, I had been using the old
C-II regular macoons. I had so much trouble with the ultra lights (mostly
because I was somewhat new to the sport) I almost sold them. After a couple
of months I finally got used to them and now wouldn't trade them for
anything. Funny thing, I can go right back to the heavy macoons with no
problem at all...
Gary
RNZWSCIZRS
the popular oar manufactures still make macons. Concept II, Dreher, Braca and
Empacher can all be found on the web and they all make a macon blade. Dreher
now makes the LS1999, a variation on a symmetrical macon blade. Maas who
specializes in open water rowing only puts their name on macon blades. Maybe
one oar design isn't right for all rowers in all conditions. Talk to the
manufactures before you buy and see what they recommend...jack
Nick Suess
RNZWSCIZRS <rnzws...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000203183341...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
I can't speak for the others, but talking to Braca, for whom I am the
Australasian distributor, they say that there are a small number of
traditionalists who prefer them, for reasons of familiarity of feel and
appearance. I didn't think to ask them about open water rowing, so I will
try and remember to do so some time soon.
But anyway, Braca still have the moulds to make them, and since their oars
are assembled individually to order, it's easy to produce the occasional
short run of macon spoons, and there is no economic reason to end their
availability.