Coaching Launches
coach
I am trying to establish, in the UK, what proportion of coaching is
undertaken from the bank as opposed to from a launch.
The issue at stake is that there are a number of coaches, some of
whome are highly experienced and successful in the physiological and
technical aspects of rowing whose own watermanship skills etc could be
improved, when it come to driving a launch.
At present there is, to the best of my knowledge, no requirement
within the UKCC coaching courses to demonstrate any ability in this
aspect of coaching. I would suggest that the ability to safely handle
a coaching launch is a skill just as important as knowing how to teach
someone how to square and feather a blade.
As a coach you have, particularly with juniors, a vital safety role to
play.You cannot do this if you do not know how to handle the launch
properly.
So the question is:- Should some launch driving skills form part of
the UKCC level 2 award?
To our non UK readers, I would ask what, if any, regulations apply on
your rivers and lakes? Do coaches have to have some form of boat-
handling qualification?
In raising this subject, I accept that I could be adding to the red
tape and bureaucracy in the sport and making it even harder to find
volunteer coaches. For that reason I would not like to see, at this
stage, any form of manditory
requirements.
We need the carrot rather than the stick.
Tinus
> the UKCC level 2 award?
>
> To our non UK readers, I would ask what, if any, regulations apply on
> your rivers and lakes? Do coaches have to have some form of boat-
> handling qualification?
In the Netherlands you'd need to get a certificate in order to drive a
motorized boat which can move faster than 20km/h. Also, at least at
the club where I row, coaches often don't drive the boat even if they
would a certificate. They are supposed to coach while someone else
focusses on driving. Conclusion: at least in my area coaches don't
necessarily need driving skills.
Henning Lippke
>> So the question is:- Should some launch driving skills form part of
>> the UKCC level 2 award?
>>
>> To our non UK readers, I would ask what, if any, regulations apply on
>> your rivers and lakes? Do coaches have to have some form of boat-
>> handling qualification?
>
> In the Netherlands you'd need to get a certificate in order to drive a
> motorized boat which can move faster than 20km/h.
Similar in Germany. But the driving license is needed depending on
engine power. If it has more than ~ 5HP, whatever speed the vessel may
reach, you need a licence. This involves lessons and an exam, like a
road driving license.
Walter Martindale
Well... In Canada you need a "pleasure boat operator's card" - it's
as difficult as an open-book online exam. No practical component.
Here in NZ you don't need anything - yet - but Maritime NZ is looking
sideways at rowing in New Zealand because there have been some
incidents, not the least being my little adventure in 08 with the
media people. A "club boat" driver cert or something like that is
being developed along the lines of one already developed for sailing
coaches. When it's developed I'm not sure how quickly or slowly it
will become widespread.
FWIW the salvaged cameras were useless and irreparable by the time
they were declared abandoned.
W
Rower1992
British Rowing does have in it's minimum standards in RowSafe "All
launch drivers should hold as a minimum the RYA Level 2 powerboat
certificate (appropriate to water conditions; tidal v non-tidal) or
equivalent"
I know that RowSafe is seen as the devil incarnation in written form
on this site, but it does cover this issue.
Discussion therefore ends.
Carl Douglas
Not so fast! Discussion ends only if that requirement is mandatory.
RowSafe was an exercise in window dressing when, formerly but sadly no
longer, the ARA (now BR) was under safety pressure from HMG. It was all
about British Rowing plc shuffling off its inalienable responsibility
(it does claim to be the national governing body, & "governance" once
had a real meaning, not whatever meaning that day suited the convenience
of the apparatchiks) for ensuring safety-sense within its member the
clubs. It is an exercise in buckpassing, there being no sense that
there exists a fund of wisdom, information & willing help, readily
available to the member clubs from the blazers at Lower Mall.
I guess that, in due course, the Marine Accident Investigation Branch
may have unfortunate cause to step in. Then real regulations may come
to be imposed, in place of present pious verbiage. If BR did do safety
properly, either pro-actively or retrospectively, they'd have imposed
real regulations & be providing technical support on such matters as
flotation. But they don't.
Carl
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coach
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are problems with this.
To the best of my knowledge, the RYA offers two types of level 2
endorsment, Coastal waters and Inland waters. The following is taken
from the RYA web site.
"This two-day course provides the skills and background knowledge
needed to drive a powerboat and is the basis of the International
Certificate of Competence.
It includes close quarters handling, high speed manoeuvres, man
overboard recovery and collision regulations. The course can be taken
inland or on the coast and your certificate will be endorsed
accordingly."
In which catagory does the Tideway fall?
If one looks at the pictures on the web site they show high
performance speed boats and the like. not a tin fish or inflatable
with a 15hp engine. It would seem to me that we asking someone, who is
going to drive nothing more the equivelant of a smart car round town
to take a course and pass a test in driving a F1 car round
Silverstone.
They say that they teach man overboard recovery, but in all my
searches I have yet to find a RYA course provider who would teach to
skills needed to rescue an entire crew without destroying the rowing
boat in the process.
The RYA do offer a course that, at first glance, would seem to fit the
bill.
Preparation, boat handling, dinghy rescue, windsurfer rescue, kayak or
canoe rescue (can be covered as theory), towing, end-of-day
procedures, safety, suitability of craft, local factors,
communication, rescuing other water users.
However, one cannot undertake this course without a level two
certificate.
Then there is the cost. Some coastal operators charge hundreds of
pounds. (it is assumed that the type of person who might own a
powerboat is not short of a penny or two). If the sport was to insist
that all coaches had a Level 2 coaching certificate as well as a
level 2 powerboat certificate, we would soon run out of coaches. Take
a small college club where they have an annual turn over of coaches,
the cost implications of sending say 3 coaches a year on mandatory
courses would run to over £1000. Lets be realistic.
In simply deferring to the RYA, British Rowing is ducking the issue. I
would suggest that they have two choices.
They can either meet with the RYA to come up with courses that are
relavent, affordable and desirable to the rowing community or they
can, take on the responsibility of organising a syllabus and
certification themselves. (I am not sure that is likely to happen
soon)
Andy McKenzie
>
> - Show quoted text -
I carried out RYA level 2 training at a scout run facility in Marlow
on the Thames - in dory style boats with 15 hp outboards - the boats
were far more maneuverable than a cat launch, but not that dissimilar
in performance. Before I went on the course I believed I 'knew' how to
drive a boat - but actually I found that I didn't! My boat handling
improved - and the large chunk of the day (we arranged to fit the two
parts of the course into one long day with one instructor and just 2
students - and it wasn't that expensive) spent practicing safe
approaches to people in the water was well worthwhile.
In my opinion it was quite an appropriate course for a coach, a launch
driver driving a coach, or someone providing marshaling type duties.
You probably need more training if you, and your launch, are planning
on rescuing a whole crew!
Our club now mandates that launch drivers have an RYA certificate -
and our preferred practice is to have a coach with a separate driver -
I quite often drive a launch during adult learn to row courses and
find that the division of responsibility works well - I can
concentrate on keeping the launch in the right place and awareness of
river traffic etc, the coach can coach. Given the occasions when one
is nearly run down by a launch with a sole occupant whose eyes are
focused down the sights of their megaphone to the exclusion of any
other factor I don't think that this is bad practice.
The financial arguments can never be totally dismissed but actually
spending £1000 a year on coach education - and it wouldn't be a £1000
because grants are available, seems quite good value to me. I think
more of an issue is the time required from volunteers already
stretched private lives!
Andy Mckenzie
Marco Bovo
Marco Bovo
though might require you to have a license. I know for sure that in
DC (District of Columbia) you are required to have a driving license.
Also if I remember correctly in Seattle too!. I don't remember that
there was any requirement for Boston, Philly or Miami. In Italy there
wasn't a requirement for anything that was under the 25 hp but it was
a long time ago. Maybe Mike can help me out here. In my experience
the only requirements I would like to see enforce is politeness and
common sense. Unfortunately both of them are really hard to teach to
anybody.
I really miss my days in Italy coaching from a bicycle :(. No engine
noise to overcome, no gas to breath, and some good exercise.
Marco
On Nov 7, 7:27 pm, coach <richardphil...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
pdb
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe that on British rivers the coaching launch is also
considered to be the 'safety boat'. Since this is the case I believe
that there should always be two in the launch as a minimum, one to
manoeuvre and the other to recover anyone who happens to fall in or
get swamped.
The RYA2 seems to be the accepted standard qualification for boat
handling and TRRC has been supporting training for candidates from
member clubs. Whether this is an adequate course I cannot judge but it
is better than nothing.
Incidentally a coach who is focussed on his/her crew can easily forget
that there are other crews and users on the river as well and that
MUST be addressed as part of any training course.
JD
from a paddleboard sometimes) There aren't the tow paths that one sees
in
Europe and the UK, and motor-boating, water skiing and sport fishing
are a big deal here, so most waters are accessible to a launch, often
to the point of being nearly unrowable due to wakes. A very high
percentage of accidents are alcohol-related.
In the US, most states (including Connecticut) require a boating
license, which as was noted above, is obtained by taking a short
course or an online test. Enforcement is lax and as is typical of
many
laws, no-one asks unless you screw up. Many clubs require that
coaches
receive such certificates. Here is a website for getting yours.
http://www.boat-ed.com/
JD
Richard Packer
<pdbl...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I believe that on British rivers the coaching launch is also
>considered to be the 'safety boat'.
By whom?
>Since this is the case I believe
>that there should always be two in the launch as a minimum, one to
>manoeuvre and the other to recover anyone who happens to fall in or
>get swamped.
I would entirely agree that any boat that really is a safety launch
must have two people on board (one helm, one crew with appropriate
lifesaving / first aid skills), and be of a design appropriate for the
task (i.e. stable with sufficient space for N casualties, and low
enough sides to enable safe rescues). There are many coaching
launches (e.g. the "torpedo" type or tin fish) that are entirely
unsuitable for use as safety boats, even if they are fine for
coaching. They might be better than nothing, but only just.
JD
I would caution against low sides on the launch, or at least those
that are too low, for the simple reason that the weight of a rescuer
and wet, cold, panicky athletes can force one side low enough to swamp
the launch. At that point, the rescuers can become the victims. We
equip launches here with boating ladders.
In New Hampshire 20 years or so ago , one contributing fator was that
several athletes tried to get in the launch at once from one side and
the coach went in as welll (1 fatality) . Another notable case occured
in Tampa (no fatalities), in warm but rough water, as a news
helicopter flew over and filmed it for local alumni.
BTW, It is my understanding that both of the launches in these
incidents were "tin fish".
JD
On Nov 10, 3:56 pm, Richard Packer <use...@rjSURNAME.org.yookay>
wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:56:14 -0800 (PST), pdb
>
Richard Packer
wrote:
>I would caution against low sides on the launch, or at least those
>that are too low, for the simple reason that the weight of a rescuer
>and wet, cold, panicky athletes can force one side low enough to swamp
>the launch. At that point, the rescuers can become the victims. We
>equip launches here with boating ladders.
Ladders are all well and good for conscious casualties, but hardly any
use for semi-conscious and no use whatsoever for unconscious ones.
The launches I have in mind are RIBs or Zapcats. IMO hard-sided
launches are not as good, as you do need enough freeboard to keep the
launch safe, and that in turn makes rescue tricky. In RIBs, if you
have to you can partially deflate the tubes one one side to lower the
boat to make rescue easier.
I've done a few rescues on the umpire's cats we use at Dorney Lake.
They are very stable, almost impossible to capsize, with low freeboard
and a large deck area.
http://www.armplast.lt/en/index.php?topic=products&productID=19
I entirely agree that "tin fish" are not at all suitable, and far too
easy to swamp or capsize.
Carl Douglas
While I agree with much that Richard says, small cats like that are not
so hard to capsize.
It is inherent in fine-hulled cats that, when you depress the end of a
bow or stern just below the water, the righting moment drops off
spectacularly. This can easily happen (& has in a UK rescue) when a
couple of guys try to haul a swimmer aboard near the end of one hull,
there being relatively volume in a fine bow. It gets worse for a cat
laden with rescued bodies.
It is human to believe, when a vessel is seems extremely stable, that
this stability will be retained at all angles of heel. The reality is
not infrequently quite different, especially for relatively light,
slender & low displacement multihulls. For these a high initial
righting moment can suddenly collapse to almost nothing beyond certain
angles of loading, heel &/or pitch. The result can be disastrous.
Cheers -
pdb
wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:56:14 -0800 (PST), pdb
>
> >I believe that on British rivers the coaching launch is also
> >considered to be the 'safety boat'.
>
> By whom?
I am sure that some years ago, perhaps on the Tideway, the
justification was to allow a 'coaching launch' to exceed the nominal
'speed limit'
> I would entirely agree that any boat that really is a safety launch
> must have two people on board (one helm, one crew with appropriate
> lifesaving / first aid skills), and be of a design appropriate for the
> task (i.e. stable with sufficient space for N casualties, and low
> enough sides to enable safe rescues). There are many coaching
> launches (e.g. the "torpedo" type or tin fish) that are entirely
> unsuitable for use as safety boats, even if they are fine for
> coaching. They might be better than nothing, but only just.
The benefit of any launch, even an in-line or torpedo, is that with 2
people aboard it can be used as 'flotation' for crew members whose
boat is disappearing beneath the water or to 'tow' the disabled craft
to a safer part of the river.
The catamaran type of boat has much greater stability and can take the
crew aboard, perhaps not all of an eight, but certainly a four or
smaller. A competent 'driver' will be a great help even without 'life-
saving' qualifications in coming alongside a capsized craft and giving
assistance.
I would also suggest that a 'tin fish' is not as good for coaching,
especially when the coach is in the stern with the bows rising high
above the water. They are really only safe when travelling at a speed
which is greater than normally permitted on the Tideway or upriver on
the Thames.
Richard Packer
<ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
>While I agree with much that Richard says, small cats like that are not
>so hard to capsize.
>
>It is inherent in fine-hulled cats that, when you depress the end of a
>bow or stern just below the water, the righting moment drops off
>spectacularly. This can easily happen (& has in a UK rescue) when a
>couple of guys try to haul a swimmer aboard near the end of one hull,
>there being relatively volume in a fine bow. It gets worse for a cat
>laden with rescued bodies.
>
>It is human to believe, when a vessel is seems extremely stable, that
>this stability will be retained at all angles of heel. The reality is
>not infrequently quite different, especially for relatively light,
>slender & low displacement multihulls. For these a high initial
>righting moment can suddenly collapse to almost nothing beyond certain
>angles of loading, heel &/or pitch. The result can be disastrous.
All I can say is that I've done 3 or 4 rescues in those launches -
from the deck, not the ends of the hulls - and it's been fine.
Christopher Anton
"Richard Packer" <use...@rjSURNAME.org.yookay> wrote in message
news:e6emf5lm5n6mqsrbh...@4ax.com...
I believe one of the cats at Poznan went down last year because it had quite
a few people on it and they moved their weight around and suddenly they were
in trouble.
Carl Douglas
I don't doubt what you say, Richard.
However, as I indicated, while a cat's stability can be very convincing,
and for as long as you remain in that stable zone all should be fine,
you get no easy warning of an imminent loss of stability. You really
need to know where danger may lurk. Unfortunately a sudden lurch,
followed smartly by inversion, unless you respond fast enough (e.g. by
dropping the person you are rescuing!), tends to be the most blindingly
obvious danger sign. Bit late then.
In rowing we do like to hold to simple beliefs - including the belief
that cats are reliably stable. In boating, adherence to simple beliefs
without understanding their limitations can occasionally bring very
nasty surprises, usually when you most need things to behave nicely.
David Jillings
carry them up and down to the water every time you use them - often up
and down a steep and slippery hard. Not sure you could do this with a
cat - can they be carried by three people?
David.