Dreher ex demonstraton sculls (UK)
boatie
We have ex-demonstration stock available for sale at a discount.
These have been used a couple of times by potential customers and so
they are not brand new.
I will be visiting London on 25 September and so can deliver them free
to Putney or Chiswick. Cambridge deliveries also possible free of
charge.
2 pairs Apex Carbon Adjustable Sculls 288:88 midpoint, medium
stiffness, medium handle, stampfli grip
2 pairs Apex Round Carbon Adjustable Sculls 288:88 midpoint, medium
stiffness, medium handle, stampfli grip
1 pair Big Blade Carbon Adjustable Sculls 288:88 midpoint, medium
stiffness, medium handle, stampfli grip
Price new £335
Ex demonstration sculls £310
FREE delivery
1 pair Big Blade Fixed length sculls 289:88 cm midpoint medium handle,
STS Black grip
1 pair Little Big Blade Fixed length sculls 289:88 cm midpoint medium
handle, STS Black grip
Price new £270
Ex demonstration sculls £250
To order go to http://www.rowperfect.co.uk/contact/
carol...@aol.com
I was one of those customers! We subsequently bought 8 pairs of the
fixed length Little Big Blades (288 length) and are thinking of buying
more when funds permit. They are ideal for juniors and recreational
rowers who find normal big blades too heavily geared. We used them on
the ARA Recreational Rowing Tour and everybody who tried them liked
them.
Caroline
david.h...@aea.be
> We used them on
> the ARA Recreational Rowing Tour and everybody who tried them liked
> them.
>
> Caroline
So they have got a lot of miles on the clock already... :-)
Charles Carroll
Charles Carroll
I am curious. The "Little Big Blade" is Dreher's LBB (2000) right?
Have you, or anyone else, ever tried Dreher's LS1999s, what Dreher calls the
Big Macons?
Several weeks ago when my Apex-RXs were being modified, I took out the
LS1999s thinking they were Macons. What a surprise! I discovered, quite to
my chagrin, that I couldn't row worth a damn with the LS1999s. Turns out a
lot of people at my Club have had the same experience, except for one or two
scullers who just fell in love with the LS1999s. But I found these, as I
say, the most difficult blades I have ever tried to use. I am curious if
anyone else has any opinions about these blades.
Cordially,
Charles
carol...@aol.com
wrote:
To answer Dave's question - on the tour we used the sculls which we
bought, not the demonstration pair. The demo ones were only used a
couple of times (by me and one of our juniors) and were returned in
pristine condition. My other half thought they were too light, and
they are in fact slightly lighter than our own adjustable Dreher
sculls, which is surprising as they are the cheaper "training"
version. However in a touring boat, light is good.
I don't know what the model number is, sorry Charles. I do
occasionally use various macon sculls in the touring boat - mostly
older ones and not Drehers - and find them quite uncomfortable. It's
probably a case of what you're used to.
Caroline
Charles Carroll
> occasionally use various macon sculls in the touring boat - mostly
> older ones and not Drehers - and find them quite uncomfortable. It's
> probably a case of what you're used to.
I couldn't agree more, Caroline.
In a few weeks when I have become more accustomed to the new shell I am
going to try again the Dreher LS1999s, just on the possibility that learning
to master them, I may also learn something new about sculling.
boatie
>
> In a few weeks when I have become more accustomed to the new shell I am
> going to try again the Dreher LS1999s, just on the possibility that learning
> to master them, I may also learn something new about sculling.
Charles
there are three sizes of macon made by Dreher, with tip measurements
17, 18 or 19 cms.
And so I'd recommend measuring the ones you picked up.
In Germany, their rowing administration mandated the use of small
blades for juniors and they created the 'kinder' oar which is the 17cm
macon and it is much shorter than standard, being I think about 284
cms long. For comparison, Caroline's were 288 long.
Will Hoodless at Upper Thames RC (UK) bought himself a pair of the 19
cms for his winter training (he uses big blade for summer).
I could probably put you two in touch if you want to find out what he
thinks.
Jim Dreher himself told me that he thinks his Macon design is a faster
spoon shape than the Dreisiggaker big blade......!
Rebecca
paul_v...@hotmail.com
Having the good fortune to be able to use anything from Pocock Wood
Sculls (The finest feeling of all) to the ApexRx (The near peak of
technology and design, IMO.), I find it quite troubling when anyone
claims that a given blade design is "faster". That can only lead to
people mistakenly believing they were just beaten by the equipment
rather than the rower, something that this sport has a long history of
claiming to be governed against.
The speed of the M8+ has not increased over the last 20 years, and the
blip in increased speed that did happen those many years ago coincided
with the introduction of lighter composite shafted oars, not a change
in blade shape.
I'm sure we could find a shape that would not work well, but by the
time one is to market, they all work pretty darn well, after all,
we're in the business of helping to move boats as fast as we can.
Wouldn't it be fun if we could design our competitions equipment? But
not so fun if they got to design ours. [;o)
- Paul Smith
Carl
Paul -
There's 1 reason why a macon blade might prove more effective:
Being symmetrical & tapering inwards near the tip, when buried to the
neck the outer part of its upper edge cannot help but be better
submerged than that of the cleaver. That makes it less easy for air to
entrain down the blade's suction (convex) face, so the blade should be
less prone to slip (slip being more dependent on aeration than blade
area) which would improve its efficiency.
Cheers -
Carl
PS Thanks for the photos. Most interesting. And the Snappers are in
Pete's hands.
C
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey, Surrey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
paul_v...@hotmail.com
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)
Agreed, but that "one thing" has a dependency, it requires the skill
of precise catch timing and exceptional quickness in the early drive
(AKA - excellent skill). The person that can take advantage of the
Macon shape will be at no disadvantage (aside from handling
characteristics perhaps) when using the Cleaver shapes. The ApexR is
a whole lot more like a Macon than it is like a cleaver, and enhances
the exact features that you mention as advantageous, also requiring
the application of good skills to capitalize on them. The big
asymmetrical blades are the perfect answer to the trend in becoming
more strong and fit at the expense of skill, but wouldn't it be nice
to see both come together? (I think that we do see it from time to
time, recently AUS M2-, FRA M2x, GER W1x are good examples, IMO. But
they all still used cleaver type blades even if they didn't need
them.) Even the GBR M4- was working on making some changes that would
be supported by the Macon blade, but skill at the catch is non-
trivial. I wonder if Jurgen gave them Macon Blades to learn with. A
reasonable learning curve would be found out by the athletes
themselves with the right tools in hand.
Cheers,
Paul Smith
PS - Pete enjoyed the tour, and being able to see boat #1 (from the
new premises) being in process.
Walter Martindale
editor, a POM himself) have done some blade shape comparisons in a
flume/tank and say essentially that it's the surface area that made the
"big blades" a bit better at propulsion more than the shape, when
contrasting Macon with "big blades" of various shapes. They say that if
the surface areas were equal, a Macon would v. likely propel just as
well. After that, it's up to the organism on the end of the handle(s).
W
paul_v...@hotmail.com
<wmart...@telusSPAMSTOPplanet.net> wrote:
Yep, I read either that paper or a similar one courtesy of KC, but the
problem of what a blade is doing throughout a stroke in a boat surely
can't be evaluated properly with static plates in a moving stream.
The ApexR is easily smaller in surface area than a big blade, the
ApexRex even smaller, yet there is no loss in performance as far as I
can tell. (admittedly small test pool)
Didn't someone mention that a coach of some fame gave his M8+ Macons
on one side and Big Blades on the other, finding that the boat still
went straight?
- Paul Smith
Carl
And, similarly, I have a pair of cleaver sculls. One blade is
unaltered. From the to edge of the other I removed a chunk ~150mm long,
starting from the tip, & ~25mm deep (i.e. 6" x 1"). No one who's used
these sculls finds the slightest difference in feel or effect between
them. And the boat still goes straight.
Blades "designed"? In the fluid dynamics sense, I rather doubt it. And
I agree, Paul, that studies of a blade fixed in a steady flow are
inevitably prejudged & thus probably not very meaningful as means of
calibrating a blade which, within 0.8 seconds, passes through a range of
180 degrees in angle of attack WRT the actual water flow over it.
And then there's the business of blade area. Why do folk sweat buckets
over minuscule alterations to spread, length & inboard - differences
whose effect can be of no more than 2nd order - while everyone uses
about the same blade area? Does a 60kg woman require the same blade
area as a 110kg man? Someone must have too much or too little area, or
all of us have either too much or too little. Yet this is barely ever
discussed or considered.
So we pretend at science, & then fall back on the old excuse of
claiming, out of consolidated ignorance, that none of it makes any
difference.
Next someone will start arguing in favour of a bit of slip between blade
& water. I expect they also grease the tyres on their bike before
riding off.
Mmmm -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey, Surrey KT16 8RP, UK
Mike Sullivan
"Carl" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fddn0s$40j$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> paul_v...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sep 25, 12:35 pm, Walter Martindale
>> <wmart...@telusSPAMSTOPplanet.net> wrote:
>>
>>>paul_v_sm...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sep 23, 11:01 am, boatie <rebe...@caroe.com> wrote:
snip
>> Didn't someone mention that a coach of some fame gave his M8+ Macons
>> on one side and Big Blades on the other, finding that the boat still
>> went straight?
>>
>> - Paul Smith
>>
>
> And, similarly, I have a pair of cleaver sculls. One blade is unaltered.
> From the to edge of the other I removed a chunk ~150mm long, starting from
> the tip, & ~25mm deep (i.e. 6" x 1"). No one who's used these sculls
> finds the slightest difference in feel or effect between them. And the
> boat still goes straight.
>
> Blades "designed"? In the fluid dynamics sense, I rather doubt it. And
The very popular ones made here in the US weren't.
They were a design of Pocock's in 1950 who experimented with
hatchet blades. Pocock thought the blades were more effective in
his typical scientific fashion, watching them, using them, experimenting
with them in the water, but couldn't manufacture them with good
consistency in wood. One oar to another would twist differently
as the center of the blade didn't line up with the shaft.
The D's saw this blade around Stanford's boathouse in the 60s
in the rafters of the old A frame building.
Conn showed me the oar one time. JD prolly had to trip over
it all the time when he was coaching there.
The vortex edge is remarkably like the brass strips put on old
wood oars to protect the edges of blades.
I rowed a single a few years ago w/ a macon and a hatchet
but the hatchet felt 'deeper'. I didn't do it on purpose, I'd
mistakenly grabbed a wrong scull out of the locker in the dark
and wasn't paying attention to what I'd gotten. When I set
the oars on the dock is when I saw it, but just laughed and
rowed with them anyway to see what happened. They
did feel different, but the buttons were different, no thought about
the outboards, etc. After pushing along a mile or so I couldn't really
tell.
I'm a bad experiment, though, I can row in really awful rigs
and not know it. My old wood Sims that I used to scull all
the time was the worst rigged 1X in history, I didn't realize
it until I had someone else row it who'd never been in a wood
boat before. God, that was a pathetic sight, poor guy.
Mike
Charles Carroll
>> can't be evaluated properly with static plates in a moving stream.
>> The ApexR is easily smaller in surface area than a big blade, the
>> ApexRex even smaller, yet there is no loss in performance as far as I
>> can tell. (admittedly small test pool)
>>
>> Didn't someone mention that a coach of some fame gave his M8+ Macons
>> on one side and Big Blades on the other, finding that the boat still
>> went straight?
>>
>> - Paul Smith
Carl writes:
> .................the business of blade area. Why do folk sweat buckets
> over minuscule alterations to spread, length & inboard - differences whose
> effect can be of no more than 2nd order - while everyone uses about the
> same blade area? Does a 60kg woman require the same blade area as a 110kg
> man? Someone must have too much or too little area, or all of us have
> either too much or too little. Yet this is barely ever discussed or
> considered.
>
Hello Rebecca, Paul and Carl -
Sorry to be so late in posting. I am enjoying the new shell so much that I
find myself loathe to sit in front of a computer screen typing. This week in
San Francisco we have had a string of as close to perfect days for sculling
as I may ever see. Temperature has been in the low to mid 70s F, blue sky,
no wind, mirror flat water.
Now, as for the experiment that you mentioned, Paul. This was reported in
the "Rowing News," the October 2004 issue, p. 50.
"... the conventional wisdom [is] that hatchets help novices greatly but
have less impact at the top end of the sport. Elite coach Volker Nolte
graphed the best Olympic and world championship times during the transition
from Macons to the Big Blade. 'You do no see specific improvements between
1991 and 1992,' he says. 'I also could not see [a difference] when I coached
the Canadian lightweight men's eight. I actually rowed Macon oars on one
side and Big Blades on the other, removed the rudder and asked the rowers
to row with closed eyes. The boat went perfectly straight.'"
Now, Carl, as for blade area, how could anyone disagree? Very few people pay
any attention to blade area but will constantly play with their gearing. But
isn't this understandable? Once you purchased a boat and sculls, isn't it
easier to change spread, outboard and inboard then it is to swap out blades?
As for blade area and shape, that was the whole point of bringing up the
Dreher LS1999 blade. The length of this blade is shorter than a Macon, the
width is wider, and the blade has less curve to it. I was in a hurry, as I
always am, and picked out a set of sculls from the Club Rack thinking I was
selecting a set of Macons. Surprise!
The first problem I had was backing up. I just couldn't get the blade out of
the water. I am a bit ashamed to admit this, but backing up was so difficult
that I turned around and rowed out of the Marina. In the hour or so that I
used these sculls I never did manage to back up worth a damn.
The second problem I encountered was at the catch. I found that in order to
get a decent catch with the LS1999s I had to be much more careful about
building up pressure against the pins. If I built up this pressure too
suddenly - that is, slammed back against the pins - the LS1999s lost hold of
the water. That air entrainment behind the blades that you have so expertly
written about, Carl!
So with the LS1999s I had to be subtler and more delicate when I took the
catch. It seems to me that another way of saying this is that to take a good
catch with the LS1999s required more skill than is required by conventional
Macons, hatchets or Apex-RX designs. But the upside to the LS1999s is that
when the blades lost hold of the water at the catch, I didn't feel the same
hard, punishing load that I feel when my Apex-Rex blades lose their hold on
the water. The only problem with losing hold of the water with the LS1999s
is that I just didn't go as fast as when I kept my hold on the water.
In the hour or so that I sculled with the LS1999s I eventually learned how
to catch water and hold on to it. And when I did, I found that I could build
up pressure against the pins every bit as well as I can with a set of
hatchets, or Macons, or Apex-Rx blades.
My conclusion, for what its worth, corroborates what Paul wrote in an
earlier posting. The LS1999s and Macons require more skill than hatchets or
Apex-Rx blades. But once you have attained this skill, LS1999s and Macons
are every bit as effective at catching water and holding on to it as the
other, bigger blades.
Now, Carl, as for the new shell. Every day I find myself falling a little
bit more in love with it. Yesterday I had very strange thing happen. I went
out rowing with David Lay, and as we were racing down from Cone Rock to
Strawberry he shouted out to me that he had never seen me rowing so well.
Then when we returned to the dock, Liz and Ellen were waiting. Both of them
told me that they had never seen me rowing so well. I think everyone thinks
that this new alteration in my rowing skills can be attributed to the new
Carl Douglas.
Ellen took it out the other day and I think she fell in love with it. I have
been making a few brief notes, which I will eventually post here. And Ellen
and I want to make a video of the shell. I hope we can get some film showing
how it moves through the water, what the bow looks like, and the stern, and
how it self-bails, and what it looks like next to a 24, and if we're lucky
maybe we can show how it moves in rough water. We just have to find the time
to do it.
Cordially,
Charles
Alasdhair Johnston
> wood oars to protect the edges of blades.
Which was actually the only reason I went for the Vortex Edge option:
boating from concrete steps leads to some interesting blade shapes whatever
you start with...