Straight arms at the catch
david.ballard
I was at an coaching course yesterday in the UK. There were about 10
students and 3 instructors, the least qualified of whom had already got a
Bronze award - the other two had the silver award (one having coached a UK
national championship winner) and one of them was an ARA professional coach.
In other words, not mugs!
I said that the inside arm, when rowing, is not straight at the catch, but
slightly bent. This is a clear muscle memory that I have (and I had last
raced at the Fairbairns only two days before) and this also seems to me to
me to be geometrically inevitable unless there are extreme contortions of
the shoulders. However, everyone in the room seemed to disagree with me -
at least no-one supported my position! The gold medallist coach claimed that
the winning crew all had both arms straight at the catch. No one seemed to
think that I had a point at all.
I went home and looked at some photos and watched some videos closely. As
far as I could tell, virtually every rower in the Olympics had a bent inside
arm at the catch. This was usually quite marked. The few that didn't
normally had a cocked inside wrist but a flat outside wrist, thereby
achieving virtually the same result. This was true of all three GB mens
sweep crews, the Romanian womens pair, indeed virtually every medallist. The
French pair was particularly marked. It was also true of the GB 2- and 2+ at
Barcelona, etc.
I also realised that there is only really one position from which one can
say for sure that an arm is straight - with the arm in question directly
facing one (hence the clarity of the olympic shots, which were often from a
slight angle). Much harder with a stern camera as in the Boat Race (the 1994
Cambridge crew had fairly straight looking arms from that angle) or from
side on. Bare arms also help the clarity.
So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are they
even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row that
way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
Views please!
--
David Ballard
Swindon RC
Gareth G. Price
me who said it!!). The shoulders are parallell with the blade of which the
inside shoulder is further back the the outside shoulder to enable you to
row the same arc as your blade.
Gareth
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:b%MW5.5644$uP1.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
j...@durge.org
: So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable?
Undoubtedly. Try lifting shopping repeatedly with bent arms.
Are they
: even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row that
: way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
I've always been taught to have straight arms, and I think this is a
good ideal. Not sure if it is always possible though.
Incidentally, which river do you row on in Swindon?
Jon
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david.h...@aea.be
"david.ballard" <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped message>
>
I think I can claim to row with straight arms, although whether my
beginnings are long enough is another matter...
I just tried a little experiment (you too can do this at home)..
Sitting with my shoulderblades against the back of the chair and my
arms extended as far as they could go, touching the edge of my
keyboard, how far could I shorten one arm, without twisting my
shoulders or bending my elbow? It retracted quite a long way - 4
inches or so. Bringing the shoulders into play would obviously
increase the effect even more.
I have thought about this in the boat, because the person who usually
rows behind me (we're both ancient veterans, BTW) has a very bent
inside arm and a very short stroke. I've tried to persuade him to
straighten his elbow while *somehow* keeping his outside hand on the
handle.
Dave H
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Adriaan Koster
> So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are they
> even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row that
> way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
My view: you are absolutely right, and the other coaches must have
misunderstood because I think this is widely agreed upon. You can't keep
both arms straight at the catch without turning your shoulders in an
unnatural position. At my club, all clubs in Holland I know, as well as
the dutch rowing association it is explicitly taught to leave the inside
arm relaxed at the catch and hang on to the outside arm. A specific
drill for this is 'outside arm only' rowing, where the rower has to put
the inside arm behind the back (or in the lap) and row with squared
blade. After a while the inside arm is put on the shaft (halfway to the
oarlock) to follow the oars movement, but still pulling with the outside
arm only. Finally the hands return to normal position, but the inside
arm is only used to pull in the last part of the stroke.
A3aan.
david.ballard
But have you actually seen anyone do this? Please direct me to a photo! And
dig out your Olympics videos and tell me what they are all up to!
All the best
(Otherwise the day was v. good!)
David
Gareth G. Price <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:975939363.13886.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are
they
> > even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row
that
> > way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
> >
Katy Cameron
Yep, SARA agrees too, or at least it did at Easter when they ran an RIC
course. We saw lots of videos critiquing different rowers and I seem to
remember quite a few Olympic rowers rowing with straight inside arms.
The worst offender of bent arms was the bow woman of the Romanian pair
who won their Olympic race, who went on to use the same techniques in
all the other boats she rowed in (not surprisingly really!), but her
arms must have hurt! As one coach of mine used to point out, you
should pretend you are lifting a fridge, so you should not bend either
your back or arms. Getting people to do this is quite another matter...
KT
(I'll go and hide now, I don't like getting into technical discussions -
they scare me! Also people might have seen me row and decide to comment
- even scarier :o) )
david.ballard
> Yep, SARA agrees too, or at least it did at Easter when they ran an RIC
> course. We saw lots of videos critiquing different rowers and I seem to
> remember quite a few Olympic rowers rowing with straight inside arms.
> The worst offender of bent arms was the bow woman of the Romanian pair
> who won their Olympic race, who went on to use the same techniques in
> all the other boats she rowed in (not surprisingly really!), but her
> arms must have hurt! As one coach of mine used to point out, you
> should pretend you are lifting a fridge, so you should not bend either
> your back or arms. Getting people to do this is quite another matter...
>
> KT
>
> (I'll go and hide now, I don't like getting into technical discussions -
> they scare me! Also people might have seen me row and decide to comment
> - even scarier :o) )
Don't hide! But what about the stroke of that pair. And the sainted Steve.
And the even more sainted Matthew and Tim (technically, that is). Or the
entire bowside of the GB VIII (can't speak for the strokeside, because angle
of camera was wrong). And the entire field of the pairs final. And so on.
If her arms hurt so much, why didn't she blow up - after all, she won two
finals and two semis virtually back to back!
David
Gareth G. Price
I think your taking the point of the exercise the wrong way.
The excerise is designed to make sure that you don't pull more with the
inside arm as this is the job of the outside hand. To enable both arms to
be straight then your outside shoulder is pushed forward and the inside
should is pushed back(slightly) so to be shoulder parallel with the blade
handle. I'll dig up some pictures and put it on the web.
Gareth
Adriaan Koster <a3...@tryllian.com> wrote in message
news:3A2BB71E...@tryllian.com...
> "david.ballard" wrote:
>
> > So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are
they
> > even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row
that
> > way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
>
david.ballard
> Undoubtedly. Try lifting shopping repeatedly with bent arms.
But do you lift your shopping with your back twisted at 35 degrees or
whatever?
>
> Are they
> : even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row
that
> : way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
>
> I've always been taught to have straight arms, and I think this is a
> good ideal. Not sure if it is always possible though.
I humbly submit that it isn't possible - if it is, I want to see the
evidence. After all, I've given loads of evidence the other way!
>
> Incidentally, which river do you row on in Swindon?
It's a pond, but it's home - Coate Water Park.
david.ballard
>
> I think I can claim to row with straight arms, although whether my
> beginnings are long enough is another matter...
I'm not advocating short beginnings, but long and powerful ones. The GB bow
in the VIII was short as a rower - about 1.85 metres - yet clearly takes the
catch with bent arms. Someone as short as him couldn't have held his place
if he were also rowing short!
> I just tried a little experiment (you too can do this at home)..
> Sitting with my shoulderblades against the back of the chair and my
> arms extended as far as they could go, touching the edge of my
> keyboard, how far could I shorten one arm, without twisting my
> shoulders or bending my elbow? It retracted quite a long way - 4
> inches or so. Bringing the shoulders into play would obviously
> increase the effect even more.
Of course there is a turn to the shoulders - the issue is - is it enough to
enable both arms to stay straight?
>
> I have thought about this in the boat, because the person who usually
> rows behind me (we're both ancient veterans, BTW) has a very bent
> inside arm and a very short stroke. I've tried to persuade him to
> straighten his elbow while *somehow* keeping his outside hand on the
> handle.
Sounds like good advice - as long as he doesn't think he has to go all the
way to dead straight!
David
Gareth G. Price
would die if we attempted. When you see international scullers drop the
wrists they are able to do for that due the intensity of the training and
lactic resistance/recycling levels within their bodies. When showing
video's to people of technique I try to point out that everyone has faults
even internationals they can just get away with them more easily than us
mere mortals but I'll dig out a picture and post it on the web ASAP.
Gareth
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:GVPW5.5974$uP1.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Mark Hamilton
slightly bent at the catch. Like Adriaan I have spent considerable time at
the inside hand off drill. Regardless of this, due to the fact that the
inside arm is closer to the gate, it would be impossible to have the inside
arm straight, and maintain a grip with the outside hand, due to the position
of the body in relation to the arc of the oar handle as you come forward
(assuming you have the shoulder with grip I have always been told to use).
At least I find this to be the case, and I'm pretty sure both my arms are
the same length. I have to say I was shocked to see so much support for the
straight arm argument, as I've never seen it, and certainly can't do it!
Mark
<david.h...@aea.be> wrote in message
news:90gg72$4im$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <b%MW5.5644$uP1.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> "david.ballard" <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snipped message>
> >
>
> I think I can claim to row with straight arms, although whether my
> beginnings are long enough is another matter...
>
> I just tried a little experiment (you too can do this at home)..
> Sitting with my shoulderblades against the back of the chair and my
> arms extended as far as they could go, touching the edge of my
> keyboard, how far could I shorten one arm, without twisting my
> shoulders or bending my elbow? It retracted quite a long way - 4
> inches or so. Bringing the shoulders into play would obviously
> increase the effect even more.
>
> I have thought about this in the boat, because the person who usually
> rows behind me (we're both ancient veterans, BTW) has a very bent
> inside arm and a very short stroke. I've tried to persuade him to
> straighten his elbow while *somehow* keeping his outside hand on the
> handle.
>
j...@durge.org
: The worst offender of bent arms was the bow woman of the Romanian pair
: who won their Olympic race, who went on to use the same techniques in
: all the other boats she rowed in (not surprisingly really!), but her
: arms must have hurt!
If this is the person I think you're talking about she has an Olympic
record that is incredible, something like 4 golds and 2 bronze medals.
If only I could do her the honour of recalling her name, but she's very
very successful.
j...@durge.org
: But do you lift your shopping with your back twisted at 35 degrees or
: whatever?
Not laterally, no.
: I humbly submit that it isn't possible - if it is, I want to see the
: evidence. After all, I've given loads of evidence the other way!
I've seen a lightweight international do this, and look good at it too.
At least his inside arm was nearly straight, I wasn't looking too
closely more trying to steer.
: It's a pond, but it's home - Coate Water Park.
How many metres of rowing do you get on it?
david.ballard
> Internationals tend to be able to get away with things that us mere
mortals
> would die if we attempted. When you see international scullers drop the
> wrists they are able to do for that due the intensity of the training and
> lactic resistance/recycling levels within their bodies. When showing
> video's to people of technique I try to point out that everyone has faults
> even internationals they can just get away with them more easily than us
> mere mortals but I'll dig out a picture and post it on the web ASAP.
>
> Gareth
>
If one or two of them were doing it, Gareth, I'd agree with you. What I'm
saying is that if you look at the Olympic finals stern on shots frame by
frame on a video, you will clearly see that virtually every inside arm is
bent (I prefer the term 'relaxed' that Adriaan used - but there is still a
very clear angle). If they are all in error, then why isn't someone else
coming along with 'good' technique and beating them? Why do Jurgen Grobler
and the rest of them let them all get away with it?
I humbly suggest that the term 'straight arms' - as so many others - is used
as a useful exaggeration - as something that some coaches think it is useful
to get an athlete to think about, recognising that that is not what actually
happens. Wouldn't be what I'd emphasise - but each to his or her own!
Do have a look at the videos - and not from sideways on!
All the best
David
(PS - I won't fail the course just for being argumentative will I?!)
Tim Granger
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>Gareth G. Price <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:975948943.16524.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Internationals tend to be able to get away with things that us mere
>mortals
>> would die if we attempted. When you see international scullers drop the
>> wrists they are able to do for that due the intensity of the training and
>> lactic resistance/recycling levels within their bodies. When showing
>> video's to people of technique I try to point out that everyone has faults
>> even internationals they can just get away with them more easily than us
>> mere mortals but I'll dig out a picture and post it on the web ASAP.
>>
>> Gareth
>>
>
>If one or two of them were doing it, Gareth, I'd agree with you. What I'm
>saying is that if you look at the Olympic finals stern on shots frame by
>frame on a video, you will clearly see that virtually every inside arm is
>bent (I prefer the term 'relaxed' that Adriaan used - but there is still a
>very clear angle). If they are all in error, then why isn't someone else
>coming along with 'good' technique and beating them? Why do Jurgen Grobler
>and the rest of them let them all get away with it?
My feeling is that as long as your outside arm is straight, and you're
not actively pulling on the inside one, does it matter if it's relaxed?
Most people tend to find that if they keep the inside arm straight that
they drop the outside shoulder at the catch, and all sorts of other
problems.
Is there, biomechanically, a reason why the full force of your legs can't
be transmitted by a single arm rather than needing both?
Tim
Douglas MacFarlane
"david.ballard" <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Gareth G. Price <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:975948943.16524.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Internationals tend to be able to get away with things that us mere
> mortals
> > would die if we attempted. When you see international scullers drop the
> > wrists they are able to do for that due the intensity of the training and
> > lactic resistance/recycling levels within their bodies. When showing
> > video's to people of technique I try to point out that everyone has faults
> > even internationals they can just get away with them more easily than us
> > mere mortals but I'll dig out a picture and post it on the web ASAP.
> >
> > Gareth
> >
>
> If one or two of them were doing it, Gareth, I'd agree with you. What I'm
> saying is that if you look at the Olympic finals stern on shots frame by
> frame on a video, you will clearly see that virtually every inside arm is
> bent (I prefer the term 'relaxed' that Adriaan used - but there is still a
> very clear angle). If they are all in error, then why isn't someone else
> coming along with 'good' technique and beating them? Why do Jurgen Grobler
> and the rest of them let them all get away with it?
>
> I humbly suggest that the term 'straight arms' - as so many others - is used
> as a useful exaggeration - as something that some coaches think it is useful
> to get an athlete to think about, recognising that that is not what actually
> happens. Wouldn't be what I'd emphasise - but each to his or her own!
>
> Do have a look at the videos - and not from sideways on!
>
> All the best
>
> David
>
> (PS - I won't fail the course just for being argumentative will I?!)
Might it also be one of those things which varies depending on your
shape. Breadth of your shoulders and distance between hands (as well
as rigging setup) may change how easy it is for you do straighten
your inside arm at the catch. Telling folk to try and do it may also
make them stretch round with the outside hand to increase their
reach at the catch. If folk are told they can keep the inside arm
bent they may row more within themselves as far as reach goes.
Douglas
david.ballard
<j...@durge.org> wrote in message news:90gj0v$orl$2...@fof.durge.org...
> david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> : But do you lift your shopping with your back twisted at 35 degrees or
> : whatever?
>
> Not laterally, no.
>
> : I humbly submit that it isn't possible - if it is, I want to see the
> : evidence. After all, I've given loads of evidence the other way!
>
> I've seen a lightweight international do this, and look good at it too.
> At least his inside arm was nearly straight, I wasn't looking too
> closely more trying to steer.
I think you can't tell for sure unless you look in slow motion from the
right angle (tho' it's often very obvious that an arm *isn't* straight).
>
> : It's a pond, but it's home - Coate Water Park.
>
> How many metres of rowing do you get on it?
If my new speedcoach is roughly right (and I think it is) we get just over
900 metres before turning. It's not the tideway, but it keeps a smile on the
face of a gentling ageing 40 something! Silly think is, I used to live quite
near and probably ran around it over 1000 times (literally) before realising
that I could resurrect my rowing career here.
david.ballard
> Might it also be one of those things which varies depending on your
> shape. Breadth of your shoulders and distance between hands (as well
> as rigging setup) may change how easy it is for you do straighten
> your inside arm at the catch. Telling folk to try and do it may also
> make them stretch round with the outside hand to increase their
> reach at the catch. If folk are told they can keep the inside arm
> bent they may row more within themselves as far as reach goes.
>
> Douglas
I suppose it might vary with build etc. But have a look at the 3 man in the
US VIII (or it may have been the 5 man). Huge reach forward - and bent
inside arm. Surely a focus on a straight inside arm would discourage rather
than encourage reach with the outside arm?
David
Tony Curran
Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of after
the blade is dropped in when alignment between shoulders and handle is now at a
more reasonable angle. I distinctly recall in my days at the University of Kent
('80-'83) a coach we had (member of GB squad) did a lot of outside arm only
drills and adding inside arm to feel the initial part of the drive with the
outside arm but adding inside arm fairly quickly.
In fact, I developed a technique whereby I hold the oar handle with my outside
hand with my thumb resting on top, to act as a "hook" and feather and square
with my inside hand only - pissed off the coaches here in Ottawa when I moved
here back in '87.
Tony
Ottawa RC
david.ballard
news:3A2BF91C...@nortelnetworks.com...
> DAvid,
>
> Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of
after
> the blade is dropped in when alignment between shoulders and handle is now
at a
> more reasonable angle. I distinctly recall in my days at the University of
Kent
> ('80-'83) a coach we had (member of GB squad) did a lot of outside arm
only
> drills and adding inside arm to feel the initial part of the drive with
the
> outside arm but adding inside arm fairly quickly.
>
> In fact, I developed a technique whereby I hold the oar handle with my
outside
> hand with my thumb resting on top, to act as a "hook" and feather and
square
> with my inside hand only - pissed off the coaches here in Ottawa when I
moved
> here back in '87.
>
> Tony
> Ottawa RC
>
Yes - that is what it looked like to me - the arms are straight pretty soon
after the catch but bent as the blades first enter the water.
And of course the use of the outside hand as a hook (I was also taught
something similar if less extreme) effectively increases the length of the
outside arm while the inside wrist is bent.
David
Swindon RC
Carl Douglas
>>
>> Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of
>after
>> the blade is dropped in when alignment between shoulders and handle is now
>Yes - that is what it looked like to me - the arms are straight pretty soon
>after the catch but bent as the blades first enter the water.
>
Which is just what you need for a quick catch (which gets the blade
loaded early).
It is simple mechanics:
If you catch with straight arms the only way to apply load to the handle
is by first accelerating the trunk towards the bow. That makes a slow,
dull, boat-stopping catch - it's like trying to hit a nail by bending
from the waist, or to raise a glass by only bending the back.
A flexed arm is able by a small further flex to hook & load the blade
into the water (a straight arm must flex a lot to get any hand movement
at all) & once the full body/leg load connects with the shoulder (which
isn't instantaneous) the flexed arm is drawn out straighter than before
- exactly as we see in so many fine crews.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
NO
I would think that after rowing a while, that would incorporate back
straink especially in the lumbar region, since you are twisting your
back with a load on it.
Joe
"Gareth G. Price" <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote:
>I would agree with the view of straight arms(well I have to seeing as it was
>me who said it!!). The shoulders are parallell with the blade of which the
>inside shoulder is further back the the outside shoulder to enable you to
>row the same arc as your blade.
>
>Gareth
>
>david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:b%MW5.5644$uP1.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>> Can I ask for some help?
>>
>> I was at an coaching course yesterday in the UK. There were about 10
>> students and 3 instructors, the least qualified of whom had already got a
>> Bronze award - the other two had the silver award (one having coached a UK
>> national championship winner) and one of them was an ARA professional
>coach.
>> In other words, not mugs!
>>
>> I said that the inside arm, when rowing, is not straight at the catch, but
>> slightly bent. This is a clear muscle memory that I have (and I had last
>> raced at the Fairbairns only two days before) and this also seems to me to
>> me to be geometrically inevitable unless there are extreme contortions of
>> the shoulders. However, everyone in the room seemed to disagree with me -
>> at least no-one supported my position! The gold medallist coach claimed
>that
>> the winning crew all had both arms straight at the catch. No one seemed to
>> think that I had a point at all.
>>
>> I went home and looked at some photos and watched some videos closely. As
>> far as I could tell, virtually every rower in the Olympics had a bent
>inside
>> arm at the catch. This was usually quite marked. The few that didn't
>> normally had a cocked inside wrist but a flat outside wrist, thereby
>> achieving virtually the same result. This was true of all three GB mens
>> sweep crews, the Romanian womens pair, indeed virtually every medallist.
>The
>> French pair was particularly marked. It was also true of the GB 2- and 2+
>at
>> Barcelona, etc.
>>
>> I also realised that there is only really one position from which one can
>> say for sure that an arm is straight - with the arm in question directly
>> facing one (hence the clarity of the olympic shots, which were often from
>a
>> slight angle). Much harder with a stern camera as in the Boat Race (the
>1994
>> Cambridge crew had fairly straight looking arms from that angle) or from
>> side on. Bare arms also help the clarity.
>>
>> So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are they
>> even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row that
>> way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
>>
>> Views please!
>>
>> --
>> David Ballard
>> Swindon RC
>>
>>
>>
>
>
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
NO
featehring with my outside arm, and my coach quickly put an end to
that by making me row one handed for 5k. Needless to say, my forearm
felt like a wood log by the end of practice.
the way I have learned to row is that you want your outside hand as
straight as possible, so that you can transfer the power through to
the oar with minimal loss and then you control the blade with your
inside hand. Thanks to lots of practices, I can just hook BOTH hands,
and I just let my thumbs hang below the shaft, incase a large wake
should suddenly come by and knock my oar around.
Joe
Tony Curran <acu...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>DAvid,
>
>Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of after
>the blade is dropped in when alignment between shoulders and handle is now at a
>more reasonable angle. I distinctly recall in my days at the University of Kent
>('80-'83) a coach we had (member of GB squad) did a lot of outside arm only
>drills and adding inside arm to feel the initial part of the drive with the
>outside arm but adding inside arm fairly quickly.
>
>In fact, I developed a technique whereby I hold the oar handle with my outside
>hand with my thumb resting on top, to act as a "hook" and feather and square
>with my inside hand only - pissed off the coaches here in Ottawa when I moved
>here back in '87.
>
>Tony
>Ottawa RC
>
>"david.ballard" wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Might it also be one of those things which varies depending on your
>> > shape. Breadth of your shoulders and distance between hands (as well
>> > as rigging setup) may change how easy it is for you do straighten
>> > your inside arm at the catch. Telling folk to try and do it may also
>> > make them stretch round with the outside hand to increase their
>> > reach at the catch. If folk are told they can keep the inside arm
>> > bent they may row more within themselves as far as reach goes.
>> >
>> > Douglas
>>
>> I suppose it might vary with build etc. But have a look at the 3 man in the
>> US VIII (or it may have been the 5 man). Huge reach forward - and bent
>> inside arm. Surely a focus on a straight inside arm would discourage rather
>> than encourage reach with the outside arm?
>>
>> David
>
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NO
disconcerting. Perhanps I should take the "devil's advocate"
approach, just for the sake of argument :)
Carl Douglas <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
>david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> writes
>>Tony Curran <acu...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote in message
>>> DAvid,
>>>
>>> Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of
>>after
>>> the blade is dropped in when alignment between shoulders and handle is now
><snip>
>>Yes - that is what it looked like to me - the arms are straight pretty soon
>>after the catch but bent as the blades first enter the water.
>>
><snip>
>Which is just what you need for a quick catch (which gets the blade
>loaded early).
>
>It is simple mechanics:
>If you catch with straight arms the only way to apply load to the handle
>is by first accelerating the trunk towards the bow. That makes a slow,
>dull, boat-stopping catch - it's like trying to hit a nail by bending
>from the waist, or to raise a glass by only bending the back.
>
>A flexed arm is able by a small further flex to hook & load the blade
>into the water (a straight arm must flex a lot to get any hand movement
>at all) & once the full body/leg load connects with the shoulder (which
>isn't instantaneous) the flexed arm is drawn out straighter than before
>- exactly as we see in so many fine crews.
>
>Cheers -
>Carl
>
>Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
>Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, UK
>Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
>URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
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I've always found a great way to make sure my body doesn't pivot out
of symmetry is to row with my legs apart, and let my torso go between
my knees at the catch. It's also handy with letting me get a deeper
breath at the catch, since I don't have my knees pressing against my
chest :)
Joe
"Gareth G. Price" <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote:
>A3aan
> I think your taking the point of the exercise the wrong way.
>The excerise is designed to make sure that you don't pull more with the
>inside arm as this is the job of the outside hand. To enable both arms to
>be straight then your outside shoulder is pushed forward and the inside
>should is pushed back(slightly) so to be shoulder parallel with the blade
>handle. I'll dig up some pictures and put it on the web.
>
>Gareth
>
>Adriaan Koster <a3...@tryllian.com> wrote in message
>news:3A2BB71E...@tryllian.com...
>> "david.ballard" wrote:
>>
>> > So my question is - are two straight arms at the catch desirable? Are
>they
>> > even possible? If they are, why do almost all the best crews not row
>that
>> > way? If they are not, why does the ARA believe that they are important?
>>
>> My view: you are absolutely right, and the other coaches must have
>> misunderstood because I think this is widely agreed upon. You can't keep
>> both arms straight at the catch without turning your shoulders in an
>> unnatural position. At my club, all clubs in Holland I know, as well as
>> the dutch rowing association it is explicitly taught to leave the inside
>> arm relaxed at the catch and hang on to the outside arm. A specific
>> drill for this is 'outside arm only' rowing, where the rower has to put
>> the inside arm behind the back (or in the lap) and row with squared
>> blade. After a while the inside arm is put on the shaft (halfway to the
>> oarlock) to follow the oars movement, but still pulling with the outside
>> arm only. Finally the hands return to normal position, but the inside
>> arm is only used to pull in the last part of the stroke.
>>
>> A3aan.
>
>
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Gareth G. Price
think) on the Ron Needs training video that the ARA use to teach on the
bronze lecture course. I'll see if I can take a picture and get it up on
the web.
Gareth
Gareth G. Price <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:975948560.16377.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
Adriaan Koster
> In fact, I developed a technique whereby I hold the oar handle with my outside
> hand with my thumb resting on top, to act as a "hook" and feather and square
> with my inside hand only - pissed off the coaches here in Ottawa when I moved
> here back in '87.
>
> Tony
> Ottawa RC
That's exactly how one should do it IMO, nothing to be pissed off about
(-:
The thumb on top is not a necessary addition, but helps to avoid
gripping the handle.
When I rowed sweep (back in the olden days) I used to alternate between
thumb on top
or under (and pinky on top or on the outside of the handle, but this was
for different
reasons). The inside arm comes into play after the shoulders are
somewhat straight
behind the oar, I would think around mid-stroke, and is used in the
draw. Controlling
the extraction and feathering is done completely by the inside arm/hand,
outside
hand stays a 'hook' throughout the stroke and recovery and determines
the trajectory of
the handle through the boat (pointing towards the catch in a fluent
line).
A3aan.
Adriaan Koster
> I think I can claim to row with straight arms, although whether my
> beginnings are long enough is another matter...
Many veterans I encounter (and I don't mean any offense whatsoever) row
really short at the
catch, which makes it much easier to row with straight arms. Maybe this
has something to do
with it?
I am also very surprised at the amount of support for straight arms - I
suggested in my
first post that this issue was widely agreed upon, which it apparantly
isn't. You learn something
new on RSR every day... (except about the difference between waterrower
and concept II)
I was rowing a pair in the season of 1997 and once we were coached by
Kris Korzeniowski. The
stroke rower was rowing with straight arms. Kris would say in his
typical manner: "Don't row
with straight arms, they are not pieces of wood! Relax the inside arm
and pull with the outside
arm so you can sit straight" (I'm sorry I can't convert the heavy polish
accent in this email).
I weep for all the straight arm rowers, because I cannot imagine them
becoming happy, fulfilled
rowers. Do not row with straight arms, or you will encounter bad luck.
Pass on this email to 10
rowing friends within 5 days.
A3aan.
Anu Dudhia
a) by sitting up vertically, so that the shoulders rotate about a vertical axis
(your spine), thus remain parallel to the blade handle, or
b) by keeping both hands close together on the oar, so that both arms
effectively reach for the same point, or
c) with a normally-spaced grip and some body swing, by "hunching", ie raising
and pushing back the inside shoulder at the catch, and/or dropping the outside
shoulder to maintain the shoulder-handle distance for both arms
While a straight inside arm is desirable in the sense that it is less fatiguing
to pull with a straight arm than a slightly bent arm, you have to weigh this
against the undesirability of the above catch positions.
(so put that down as one Silver on your side).
Gareth G. Price
Gareth
Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A2CC64A...@atm.ox.ac.uk...
Katy Cameron
We went through a lot of broken down catches a few years ago when we got
taught to use our outside arm as the hook to lock on, not the inside
one, and also to keep our inside arms straight. It was to do with a
slight shoulder movement rather than flexed arms to accomplish the same
effect as you described - different strokes for different folks perhaps?
KT
Katy Cameron
>
> DAvid,
>
> Might it be also that the arm is bent for only the first foot or two of after
> more reasonable angle. I distinctly recall in my days at the University of Kent
> ('80-'83) a coach we had (member of GB squad) did a lot of outside arm only
> drills and adding inside arm to feel the initial part of the drive with the
> outside arm but adding inside arm fairly quickly.
>
> hand with my thumb resting on top, to act as a "hook" and feather and square
> with my inside hand only - pissed off the coaches here in Ottawa when I moved
> here back in '87.
>
> Tony
> Ottawa RC
>
>
> > >
> > > Might it also be one of those things which varies depending on your
> > > shape. Breadth of your shoulders and distance between hands (as well
> > > as rigging setup) may change how easy it is for you do straighten
> > > your inside arm at the catch. Telling folk to try and do it may also
> > > make them stretch round with the outside hand to increase their
> > > reach at the catch. If folk are told they can keep the inside arm
> > > bent they may row more within themselves as far as reach goes.
> > >
> > > Douglas
> >
> > I suppose it might vary with build etc. But have a look at the 3 man in the
> > US VIII (or it may have been the 5 man). Huge reach forward - and bent
> > inside arm. Surely a focus on a straight inside arm would discourage rather
> > than encourage reach with the outside arm?
> >
> > David
We were taught this way, in fact using a particularly cruel excersise
whereby the outside hand only was on the blade through the water, and as
soon as it was extracted, the inside hand took over until the catch.
I've used it on novices since and it seems to make them notice a lot
more what each hand is meant to do, though it takes a little patience to
get it going right.
KT
Katy Cameron
>
> Katy Cameron <kaca...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
> : The worst offender of bent arms was the bow woman of the Romanian pair
> : who won their Olympic race, who went on to use the same techniques in
> : all the other boats she rowed in (not surprisingly really!), but her
> : arms must have hurt!
>
> If this is the person I think you're talking about she has an Olympic
> record that is incredible, something like 4 golds and 2 bronze medals.
> If only I could do her the honour of recalling her name, but she's very
> very successful.
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Durge: j...@durge.org http://www.durge.org/~jon/
> OnStream: acco...@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yeah, I know that, it just looked sore, and my coach would have had
kittens if he'd seen any of us trying it!
KT
Katy Cameron
There was a mature student that rowed with us when I was in first year
that adopted that technique, to the derision of our coach who said she
looked like she was giving birth (he was right, she did!) But it
effectively shortened her stroke. When she was taught to row round her
knee (in three years previously no-one had noticed that they hadn't
taught her this) her stroke increased in length dramatically. So how
long is your stroke? Longer or shorter than if you row round your
knee? And you think you have problems with having you knees up against
your chest? Try being a woman!
KT
Nick Suess
"Anu Dudhia" <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A2CC64A...@atm.ox.ac.uk...
> You can achieve a straight inside arm at the catch either
>
I don't know, Anu. I've thought about this one a lot during the years I've
been coaching. I was always coached to keep straight arms at the catch, and
it didn't make me fast! But I reckon it's anatomically very difficult if not
impossible to have the inside arm as fully extended as the outside. Even if
the shoulders are truly parallel with the handle, they will still be offset
from it. By this I mean that a line joining the centre of your shoulders, ie
the notch at the top of your breastbone, to the mid point of your hand span
on the handle will NOT be perpendicular to the oar or shoulders.
So I reckon "both arms straight at the catch" is really a coaching shorthand
for extend the outside arm fully, rotating the shoulders for maximum reach,
and this helps extend the inside one as far as possible. I reckon there are
a lot of such coaching shorthands around, many of which are best not
interpreted entirely literally. Trouble is people do just that. I also take
on board Carl's point about having some relaxation in the arms to enable
them to take up the initial loading on the oar prior to the leg drive.
david.ballard
of them had a link to a picture of a rather good Australian crew. I hope
that James Worrell will forgive me for quoting what he said and for giving
the link:
>David,
>I'm not real big on sweep myself .. I coach sculling ...
>That said here is one of my pics from a couple
of years back:
>http://www.rowtoday.com/Photos/ViewPhoto.asp?PhotoID=00000003
>The stroke is a long term sweep rower and has
>from what I can tell straight arms ...
>
>Interestingly the guy in 3 is 3 time world
>champ Gary Lynagh - but in the lwt double!
>
>He and the guy in two seat raced for AUS in the
>96 Olympics ... lwt 4-
>Bow is also a long term sweep rower ...
>J
>PS: ignore the rest of the site - I am still
>writing it!! ;-)
In this photo, the position of the bow side oarsmen is exactly what you see
on the Olympic videos from the same angle. I forecast that a similar photo
from an exactly equivalent angle would give a very similar picture for
strokeside. From here, you just can't tell whether the inside arm is
straight or not (tho' 2's arm does appear to be bending - look at upper to
lower arm positions). As for stroke - since his wrist is flat he must either
have a bend in his arm, or I am incorrect that the position is in fact
impossible. I think he may be bending his elbow out - but what do others
think?
Another challenge: the issue of how the catch can possibly be taken with
straight arms has often been answered with a statement that the shoulders
rotate to be parallel with the oar. I simply do not believe that this is
possible (tho' I do worry about injuries to rowers who are persuaded that it
might be). Can anyone produce a photo from directly above a rowing crew at
the moment of catch (ie as the blades enter the water) where the shoulders
are indeed parallel to the oar? If such a photo can be produced, assuming
that it is of a reasonable standard boat, then I will be persuaded that the
position is at least possible - tho' I would still need convincing that it
is either necessary (given the weight of evidence to the contrary) or even
desirable.
One point: I didn't respond yesterday, but whoever would liken the rowing
stroke to lifting a heavy fridge? If a coach gave me this analogy I would
wonder whether he or she had ever set foot in a racing shell! I think Carl's
emphasis on speed at the catch is much more like it.
David
Katy Cameron
No, really our coach at Ironbridge DID say we should pretend to be
lifting a frdige, also that we should not stretch too far out but sit up
straight - my stroke shortened considerably, and my coach when I
returned to uni told me to get a grip and row properly! As I said
above, different strokes for different folks.
KT
CaptStash
countrymen, I know in fact that his accent while theoretically Polish is
closer to Tranylvanian.
Regards,
CaptStash....
"Adriaan Koster" <a3...@tryllian.com> wrote in message
news:3A2CBC30...@tryllian.com...
CaptStash
symmetry of rowing styles? If you are rowing through the legs, while
everyone else is si rowing more traditionally, then you are more than likely
throwing the set of the boat off.
Beware the "I am special so I don't have to..." mind set. Look around at
people who are fast and do what they do.
Regards,
CaptStash
P.S. Hands about 6" apart, body rotated at the catch, both arms straight. I
never could do it, but I've been coached by both schools of thought. Seems
like many coaches are now looking for a compromise. Hands closer together
than the traditional shoulder width, some rotation of the trunk, and for
advanced crews a little leaning out at the catch. Inside hand arm is only
slightly bent but, as the aforementioned Polish coaches recommend, relaxed.
<NO SPAMa...@indirect.com (Joe Tynan)> wrote in message
news:3a2f713d...@news.earthlink.net...
david.ballard
> >
> > One point: I didn't respond yesterday, but whoever would liken the
rowing
> > stroke to lifting a heavy fridge? If a coach gave me this analogy I
would
> > wonder whether he or she had ever set foot in a racing shell! I think
Carl's
> > emphasis on speed at the catch is much more like it.
> >
> > David
>
> No, really our coach at Ironbridge DID say we should pretend to be
> lifting a frdige, also that we should not stretch too far out but sit up
> straight - my stroke shortened considerably, and my coach when I
> returned to uni told me to get a grip and row properly! As I said
> above, different strokes for different folks.
>
> KT
Think your Uni coach has the right idea! Bet the uni's crews go faster.
D
Katy Cameron
We're a bit too far apart to test this theory and race (about 300 miles
or so), and our general racing circuits don't overlap, also his crew
were S2, and our uni one only S3, so maybe he wasn't all wrong!
KT
j...@durge.org
: Oh yeah, I know that, it just looked sore, and my coach would have had
: kittens if he'd seen any of us trying it!
Play your coach a video of the Olympics and stand there looking smug.
:-)
Katy Cameron
I try not to look at my coach at all, he scares me! (He scared the rest
of last year's crew off to Bristol, Burgundy and Dublin!)
KT
David Biddulph
news:976010678.7157.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> I've found the straight arm catch. The GB Lwt 8+ from 95 (gold medal I
Silver, so obviously their catches didn't slow them too badly.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/david_biddulph/
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/
Horse
(I know, its picky).
Horse
Gareth G. Price <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:976013801.8354.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
NO
achieve 90 degrees with no problem. :) Believe it or not, I ascribe
the last few degrees to the fact that I can pivot my torso a few
inches further, since my legs aren't in the way. I find that if I do
row with my knees in the way, my chest is constricted, and I have more
difficulte drawing a breath. Also, my waist feels more compacted,
which doesn't make the catch a very comfortable position with my knees
in the way. I'd rather spread my legs a little bit and enjoy the
comfort that comes with it :).
Joe
Katy Cameron <kaca...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
>There was a mature student that rowed with us when I was in first year
>that adopted that technique, to the derision of our coach who said she
>looked like she was giving birth (he was right, she did!) But it
>effectively shortened her stroke. When she was taught to row round her
>knee (in three years previously no-one had noticed that they hadn't
>taught her this) her stroke increased in length dramatically. So how
>long is your stroke? Longer or shorter than if you row round your
>knee? And you think you have problems with having you knees up against
>your chest? Try being a woman!
>
>KT
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
NO
for oar hand positon, I was taught to row with my hands about two
thumb lenghts apart, with the outside hand having the pinky finger
along the edge of the oar, and not overlapping.
As for symmetry, I would think that having any rower lean their bodies
into or out of the oar would throw off the set more than a symmetrical
movement such as spreading the legs, but that's just me :)
Joe
"CaptStash" <capts...@home.com> wrote:
>Ever considered thar one of the things that make sweep boats set is
>symmetry of rowing styles? If you are rowing through the legs, while
>everyone else is si rowing more traditionally, then you are more than likely
>throwing the set of the boat off.
>
>Beware the "I am special so I don't have to..." mind set. Look around at
>people who are fast and do what they do.
>
>Regards,
>
>CaptStash
>
>P.S. Hands about 6" apart, body rotated at the catch, both arms straight. I
>never could do it, but I've been coached by both schools of thought. Seems
>like many coaches are now looking for a compromise. Hands closer together
>than the traditional shoulder width, some rotation of the trunk, and for
>advanced crews a little leaning out at the catch. Inside hand arm is only
>slightly bent but, as the aforementioned Polish coaches recommend, relaxed.
><NO SPAMa...@indirect.com (Joe Tynan)> wrote in message
>news:3a2f713d...@news.earthlink.net...
>>
NO
>One point: I didn't respond yesterday, but whoever would liken the rowing
>stroke to lifting a heavy fridge? If a coach gave me this analogy I would
>wonder whether he or she had ever set foot in a racing shell! I think Carl's
>emphasis on speed at the catch is much more like it.
>
>David
true, I would liken the rowing stroke more to a clean-and-jerk, or
maybe a hand-clean, much like weightlifters.
Joe
Simon Wood
well as bent inside arm question, I thought I'd add a little comment:
Watching Pinsent over the years and especially at the Sydney olympics, I've
noticed that at the start and finish of the race, he tends to row with his
knees together and reaches over the top of his knees at the catch. During
the 'cruise' in the middle 1000m or so he does open his knees (I think I'm
right in saying this) and go through his legs to the catch, although you
would never describe him as being in the birthing position...
I realise that he can get away with an awful lot due to his immense size and
cardiovascular capacity (he has legendarily large lungs) but it seems that
to really get the rate going and a very strong leg drive at the catch he
closes the knees together and sits up more. Conversely, the extra length and
relaxation when going through the knees (rather than over them) seem to
generate a more sustainable, relaxed rhythym (and possibly allow deeper
breaths).
I used to try and row like this but got an immense bollocking from my coach
for not separating my knees. Due to my lesser size, I was constricting my
movement and so not reaching full length or a decent catch position. When I
relaxed, allowed my knees to separate and also relaxed my inside arm (see -
eventually this all relates to the original post) I started to flow much
better into the catch and was picking the water up far quicker.
I realise that none of this is earth-shattering observation, but I wonder if
anyone else has noticed this and whether anyone has noticed any other top
rowers adapting their stroke within phases of the race (other than just
sitting up and spinning for a couple of strokes whenever they push the rate
up for the line...)
Simon Wood.
david.ballard
deal over the course of a race and by much more than anyone else that I have
ever seen. My style changes but that is purely a consequence of my blowing
up! I think that our revered Matthew is rather beyond this point! I can't
remember what he does with legs together but when he opens them, he clearly
bends his inside arm.
(I need to be careful not to emulate David Coleman's comments about the
miler John Walker in Montreal (I think)!
I think the issue of relaxation to help speed is one of the main reasons for
not pushing the inside arm straight. Several people have said that they do
row with a straight inside arm, but I am still waiting to hear a good reason
why they should - and for evidence that they actually do, rather than just
think they do.
To argue the other way for a moment, the best example I have seen of a photo
of an apparently straight armed crew is that on p 138 of High Performance
Rowing by John McArthur. The arms certainly look straight, tho the angle
isn't clear enough to see for sure. The Danish crew on pp 18-19 clearly has
bent arms and the GB lightweights on p 20 seem to vary with 2, 4 and 6
apparently bending but bowside (particularly 5) looking straighter. Does
anyone know the crew on p 138 and would anyone like to comment on what they
are doing? Incidentally, neither crew (GB lightweights or p 138) is rotating
the shoulders enough to explain how their arms might be straight.
David Ballard
Simon Wood <sa...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:90laa6$fjo$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
David Freeman
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vjsX5.977$uC6....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Yes - I have noticed Pinsent do this. His style really does change a great
> deal over the course of a race and by much more than anyone else that I
have
> ever seen. My style changes but that is purely a consequence of my blowing
> up! I think that our revered Matthew is rather beyond this point! I can't
> remember what he does with legs together but when he opens them, he
clearly
> bends his inside arm.
>
> (I need to be careful not to emulate David Coleman's comments about the
> miler John Walker in Montreal (I think)!
"There goes Juantorena down the back straight, opening his legs and showing
his class"
David Coleman, Montreal 1976
Dave
CaptStash
again, a large majority of their eight is made up of National Team Oarsmen
from around the world. By the way, you won't see any of them rowing with
both arms through their legs.
Regards,
CaptStash....
<NO SPAMa...@indirect.com (Joe Tynan)> wrote in message
news:3a2ee7f9...@news.earthlink.net...
Tony Curran
Simon Wood wrote:
>
> Watching Pinsent over the years and especially at the Sydney olympics, I've
> noticed that at the start and finish of the race, he tends to row with his
> knees together and reaches over the top of his knees at the catch. During
> the 'cruise' in the middle 1000m or so he does open his knees (I think I'm
> right in saying this) and go through his legs to the catch, although you
> would never describe him as being in the birthing position...
>
Simon,
I guess for the first and last 500m he isn't rowing full slide, maybe three
quaters, so the need to go thru the legs to get the reach has gone.
Tony
Ottawa RC
Adriaan Koster
> While a straight inside arm is desirable in the sense that it is less fatiguing
> to pull with a straight arm than a slightly bent arm, you have to weigh this
> against the undesirability of the above catch positions.
I don't see why a straight indside arm at the catch should be less
fatiguing. If your arms are being fatigued by pulling hard at the catch
you are doing something fundamentally wrong in my opinion. The only
thing you need to do right after the catch is hang on to your oar whilst
your legs are pushing out, and your legs cannot even apply force
maximally at this point because the knees are still at a sharp angle. By
the time back, shoulders and arms come into play you are past mid-stroke
and in a position to use both arms for the finish. Forcing use of the
inside arm for pulling right after the catch is likelier to be fatiguing
because you have to twist into an unnatural position to do so, which
hinders relaxation, breathing and the deployment of the muscle groups
you need (like hip flexors, Ilias Psoas, hamstrings and whatever - all
those intricate muscles you need to start your stroke). If you do the
outside-arm-only drill, you will discover that you can never push out
your legs so hard that you can't hold on to your handle with one hand.
Along the same lines I advocate sweep rowing with the inside arm between
the legs (inside leg drops slightly sideways for this) as you approach
the catch. I saw Matthew Pinsent rowing with both legs together between
his arms, and I admit I was surprised. I think He changes this once he
lengthens his stroke in the middle part of the race, but I haven't
checked this on video yet.
A3aan.
Tony Curran
helps in keeping the blade buried especially if your oar is slightly over
pitched.
Also, there would appear to be a mis-balance in bow and stroke side heights and
weights, so there could be balance problems caused by varying archs.
Tony
Ottawa RC
>
>
> Tim Granger <tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:90o9o3$s3p$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> > In article <NzNX5.120868$U46.4...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,
> > CaptStash <capts...@home.com> wrote:
> > >Inside arm between the legs or outside arm? Inside arm would suggest both
> > >arms between the legs. Wierd, Wierd, Weird.
> >
> > I can't believe that's what the intention was. My personal experience
> > is that I prefer my feet to be sufficiently low in the boat so that if
> > I sit tall enough in the boat (ie don't just hunch over forwards) my arms
> > tend to be just clear of my knees, so that I can rotate my shoulders
> > more or less independantly of my knees; it tends to be that my outside
> > knee is below my outside armpit, not that we really want to bring my
> > armpits into the whole discussion. A couple of pictures can be found
> > at http://www.mcshane.org/rowing/; I'm stroke in the two at the bottom
> > of the page, from summer 1999. I think in both I'm bending my inside
> > arm a little, although probably not enough since I have a habit of
> > dropping my outside shoulder at the catch, which is quite visible
> > on the henley photo. Comments?
> >
> > Tim
Tim Granger
Douglas MacFarlane <d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <90oc29$sc$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
>tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk (Tim Granger) wrote:
>> On a related issue, do people have any good recovery stratagies for
>> rsi in the wrist? Over last summer doing a body weights circuit I damaged
>> my left wrist doing press ups, and despite giving it loads of rest since
>> october it can still feel it on the odd occasion I do a few minutes on
>> the erg to test it out. Should I give it complete rest, or given that
>> I can do some things (like bench pulls, with moderate weight) without
>> any sort of pain or abnormal feeling should I do that and gently try
>> and build up to normal training again?
>>
>> Tim
>
>Your message headers suggest you are in the computer lab at Cambridge.
>Is it possible that this is causing problems for you - or at least
>slowing down the cure? Some of my colleagues here at Glasgow have
>rsi problems related to computer use - I have managed to avoid them so
>far fortunately.
I am in the computer lab, and generally staring at the screen all day
long - it certainly wasn't the cause of my problems, but I agree that
it probably isn't helping.
Tim
Tony Curran
I was always taught to drop the outside leg and row "around" the inside leg, ie
the torso pivots around the inside leg - outside arm (now straight) goes
between the legs. Also, dip the inside shoulder and lean in to the rigger -
watch the GB hwt 8+.
You have no idea how long it took me to kick this habit when I got in a
scull!!!!
Tony
Ottawa RC
Adriaan Koster wrote:
> CaptStash wrote:
> >
> > Inside arm between the legs or outside arm? Inside arm would suggest both
> > arms between the legs. Wierd, Wierd, Weird.
>
> I'm sorry, I meant inside leg dropped slightly sideways, outside arm
> between the legs. You tend to forget these things if you become a
> sculler.
>
> A3aan.
Tim Granger
Katy Cameron <kaca...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
>1. I stopped carrying that harp and bought a trolley!
>2. I got a chair with a height adjustment for use at the computer and
>made sure that my arms never rested on the desk and kept my wrists flat,
>ie the height of the chair was a lot higher than previously.
>
>On the other hand (no pun intended!) you may be stuck in a computer lab
>like the one I'm in now, where you can't adjust the height of the chairs
>and the screens are far too close to us (yes I now wear glasses too) -
>the university's excuse for this is that since they are not a business,
>they do not have to comply with the business health and safety laws
>regarding computer use, so when we all gang up and sue them a few years
>down the line for permanent eyesight problems and recurrent rsi, they'll
>which they'd thought about it sooner! In which case, sit up as straight
>as possible and try and keep your wrists as flat as possible.
They have a similar thing here as well; as long as you're a paid
employee (as I was for the year between my undergraduate degree and
starting my phd) then you are entitled to more help. I already try
and make myself sit up properly - the result of some back problems
from last year, but I'll try the arms off the desk trick and see how I
get on.
Now does anyone have any training suggestions?
Tim
CaptStash
arms between the legs. Wierd, Wierd, Weird.
Regards,
CaptStash....
"Adriaan Koster" <a3...@tryllian.com> wrote in message
news:3A2F948D...@tryllian.com...
Tim Granger
>arms between the legs. Wierd, Wierd, Weird.
I can't believe that's what the intention was. My personal experience
Katy Cameron
> I think in both I'm bending my inside
> arm a little, although probably not enough since I have a habit of
> dropping my outside shoulder at the catch, which is quite visible
> on the henley photo. Comments?
>
> Tim
I think the guy at 6 has a worse shoulder dropping problem than you,
and, having consulted a few photos of us rowing (I thought I ought to
before I started commenting on anyone else!) you're not the only one
that does it (the more tired I get, the more I would seem to do it too).
Haven't got a cure though, but if you find one, do tell me!
KT
Gareth G. Price
piss taking I was going to say YUK! as I hate seeing outside shoulders
dropping but I won't! What I think your doing is at the catch your trying
to get more reach by dropping the shoulder and this doesn't succed as it
sends the spoon upwards so means you've got to drive the blade in lifting
the back. Here's the solution though to help you stop dropping the
shoulder:
From the finish tap down push the hands straight out and keep the outside
shoulder high and forward of the inside shoulder (allows you to follow the
arc of the blade) Body swing until the thighs tighten slightly or the hands
are halfway between the knee and feet. Slide forward while maintaining this
position and you should come to the catch without dropping the shoulder
raise the hands to let the spoon into the water and push down on the
stretch. I'll take some photo's and put them up next time I'm at the rowing
tank so I can explain it better.
Gareth.
Tim Granger <tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:90o9o3$s3p$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
Tim Granger
>piss taking I was going to say YUK! as I hate seeing outside shoulders
>dropping but I won't! What I think your doing is at the catch your trying
>to get more reach by dropping the shoulder and this doesn't succed as it
>sends the spoon upwards so means you've got to drive the blade in lifting
>the back. Here's the solution though to help you stop dropping the
>shoulder:
It's one thing I think has improved since those pictures were taken,
but the only one's I've got online
(http://www.kcbc.mcshane.org/easter00/pictures/m1_23_8.jpg from this
summer, again at stroke) are not at the catch, so it's difficuilt to see.
>From the finish tap down push the hands straight out and keep the outside
>shoulder high and forward of the inside shoulder (allows you to follow the
>arc of the blade)
So are you actively pushing the shoulders forwards from the finish, rather
than keeping them loose - which implies not forward?
> Body swing until the thighs tighten slightly or the hands
>are halfway between the knee and feet. Slide forward while maintaining this
>position and you should come to the catch without dropping the shoulder
>raise the hands to let the spoon into the water and push down on the
>stretch. I'll take some photo's and put them up next time I'm at the rowing
>tank so I can explain it better.
I think the easiest way for me to think about it is to actively drop the
inside, whilst bending my inside arm... Back to square one! I remember
a few years ago one coach was coaching me in a rowing tank, and trying
to sort my shoulder positions right with not much sucess. A bit later
on I had a go at bowside, which I've never rowed on, and found it really
easy - my tendancy to drop my left shoulder was now a positive advantage!
Katy Cameron
>
> Tim never ask for comments this near to christmas as it will result in much
> piss taking I was going to say YUK! as I hate seeing outside shoulders
> dropping but I won't! What I think your doing is at the catch your trying
> to get more reach by dropping the shoulder and this doesn't succed as it
> sends the spoon upwards so means you've got to drive the blade in lifting
> the back. Here's the solution though to help you stop dropping the
> shoulder:
>
> From the finish tap down push the hands straight out and keep the outside
> shoulder high and forward of the inside shoulder (allows you to follow the
> arc of the blade) Body swing until the thighs tighten slightly or the hands
> are halfway between the knee and feet. Slide forward while maintaining this
> position and you should come to the catch without dropping the shoulder
> raise the hands to let the spoon into the water and push down on the
> stretch. I'll take some photo's and put them up next time I'm at the rowing
> tank so I can explain it better.
>
> Gareth.
I was with you right up until you said you'd put some photos (no
appostrophe incidentally) up the next time you were at the rowing tank.
Any chance you could stick some somewhere that we could all see?
KT
Adriaan Koster
CaptStash wrote:
>
> Inside arm between the legs or outside arm? Inside arm would suggest both
> arms between the legs. Wierd, Wierd, Weird.
I'm sorry, I meant inside leg dropped slightly sideways, outside arm
Gareth G. Price
easier, more comfortable and uses less energy and doesn't stop the boat on
the recovery and makes that catch a lot easier.
Gareth.
Katy Cameron <kaca...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A2FB427...@cs.strath.ac.uk...
Douglas MacFarlane
...
...
> On a related issue, do people have any good recovery stratagies for
> rsi in the wrist? Over last summer doing a body weights circuit I damaged
> my left wrist doing press ups, and despite giving it loads of rest since
> october it can still feel it on the odd occasion I do a few minutes on
> the erg to test it out. Should I give it complete rest, or given that
> I can do some things (like bench pulls, with moderate weight) without
> any sort of pain or abnormal feeling should I do that and gently try
> and build up to normal training again?
>
> Tim
Your message headers suggest you are in the computer lab at Cambridge.
Is it possible that this is causing problems for you - or at least
slowing down the cure? Some of my colleagues here at Glasgow have
rsi problems related to computer use - I have managed to avoid them so
far fortunately.
Douglas
CaptStash
have a straight(er) inside arm at the catch. Yim would appear to have a very
long trunk compared to his legs, thus he sits above his knees. Other folks
(such as myself) have a short body (or corpse as my infamous
Polish/Transylvanian rowing coach once told me...but that's another story).
My knee nearly hits my chin at the catch, thus I have to put my outside arm
in between my legs (similar to the stroke in the photos from Tim's link). I
suspect that body geometry has a lot to do with how straight one's inside
arm is at the catch.
Regards,
CaptStash....
"Tim Granger" <tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:90o9o3$s3p$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
CaptStash
in the bottom two pics, Tim is rowing with his outside arm between his legs
as I was taught and am most comfortable. I still don't see how you can row
effectively with your inside arm between your legs.
Stupidly,
CaptStash....
"Tim Granger" <tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:90o9o3$s3p$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
CaptStash
I'm well aware of the effects of sculling induced brain damage. Nowadays, I
only get into sweep boats for occasional races and when threatened with
serious bodily harm; i.e., harm worse than that inflicted by sweep rowing.
Regards,
CaptStash....
Katy Cameron
early age, I admit it! Also it could have been carrying that concert
harp around), and had to endure a number of things to cure it. First my
doctor stuck my arm in a sling and told me not to use it, but it was
quite convenient to still use it for some things which I did. In
despair he stuck it in plaster so I couldn't use. After 6 weeks I
graduated to a splint, and after numerous physio sessions was back to
normal. I've avoided further repercussions by taking certain avoiding
action:
1. I stopped carrying that harp and bought a trolley!
2. I got a chair with a height adjustment for use at the computer and
made sure that my arms never rested on the desk and kept my wrists flat,
ie the height of the chair was a lot higher than previously.
On the other hand (no pun intended!) you may be stuck in a computer lab
like the one I'm in now, where you can't adjust the height of the chairs
and the screens are far too close to us (yes I now wear glasses too) -
the university's excuse for this is that since they are not a business,
they do not have to comply with the business health and safety laws
regarding computer use, so when we all gang up and sue them a few years
down the line for permanent eyesight problems and recurrent rsi, they'll
which they'd thought about it sooner! In which case, sit up as straight
as possible and try and keep your wrists as flat as possible.
KT
Gareth G. Price
age of 9 so I've now been using them for the grand total of 16 years. I've
got RSI(a little) but the solution is to try and slow down the typing, use a
wrist rest and not post so much to RSR(well 1 out of 3 isn't bad!). I've
never experienced RSI while rowing but pity the poor sods who do. If you
want a definite way to get RSI then become a programmer.........
Gareth
Katy Cameron <kaca...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A2FC281...@cs.strath.ac.uk...
Mike De.Petris
scrisse al povero All :
c> A flexed arm is able by a small further flex to hook & load the blade
c> into the water (a straight arm must flex a lot to get any hand movement
c> at all) & once the full body/leg load connects with the shoulder (which
c> isn't instantaneous) the flexed arm is drawn out straighter than before
c> - exactly as we see in so many fine crews.
ARGH this is exactly the opposite then what they tell us to do here in Italy,
is our theory of rowing so bad or that our national team boats could go much
faster or that our athletes are ignoring our coaches on this subject ?
In my opinion the correct way to connect at the catch is to have straight
arms and coordinate hands rising and slide inversion, this way your legs push
back your body hangin on the blade/water as soon as possible.
Isn't this what Rob is doing in 1x ?
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
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empty.http://www.studver.uu.nl/triton/rsr/ _*#RSR# Faces*_
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Atarian ST -TS! 2:333/608(FidoNet) bbsgate.interware.it
NO
>
>I think the easiest way for me to think about it is to actively drop the
>inside, whilst bending my inside arm... Back to square one! I remember
>a few years ago one coach was coaching me in a rowing tank, and trying
>to sort my shoulder positions right with not much sucess. A bit later
>on I had a go at bowside, which I've never rowed on, and found it really
>easy - my tendancy to drop my left shoulder was now a positive advantage!
>
>On a related issue, do people have any good recovery stratagies for
>rsi in the wrist? Over last summer doing a body weights circuit I damaged
>my left wrist doing press ups, and despite giving it loads of rest since
>october it can still feel it on the odd occasion I do a few minutes on
>the erg to test it out. Should I give it complete rest, or given that
>I can do some things (like bench pulls, with moderate weight) without
>any sort of pain or abnormal feeling should I do that and gently try
>and build up to normal training again?
>
>Tim
I know this sounds odd, but If you want to take care of that dropping
shoulder, think of ballet (I know, it sounds odd). Ultimately, I
think you're dropping your shoulder probably because you're not
keeping your back straight. If you really concentrated on keeping
your back straight, there would be nowhere for your shoulder to drop
to. On thing I remember doing to take care of my shoulder issues was
to watch the IceCapades on TV here in the states. I could barely
endure watching it, but I finally understood why our coach wanted
"grace in the boat" (not that I'm very graveful, only less ugly than
before). When I want to keep my back straight when I get out of bow,
I imagine I'm sitting on the edge of my seat (like you're in suspense,
say if you were watching hte final 5 minutes of the Manchester U v.
Bayern Munich game two years ago for the Euro Cup). That helps me
keep my lumbar straight. For my upper back, I imagine that I'm trying
to squeeze an orange between my stomach and my lap.
As for your wrist, I would say give it a compete rest (and see a
doctor, if it's bad), and then start with forearm exercises for a
spell, and then move up to more complex exercises.
Joe
NO
have to break the elbow anyway, I can kind of wrap it around my inside
leg, and still be able to place my chest between my legs. I just let
my knees rest in my armpits at the catch.
Joe
"CaptStash" <capts...@home.com> wrote:
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
david.ballard
Mike De.Petris <mi...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it> wrote
in message news:18868...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it...
> In uno strano messaggio del 04 Dec 00 ca...@carldouglas.co.uk
(2:333/608.1)
> scrisse al povero All :
> c> A flexed arm is able by a small further flex to hook & load the blade
> c> into the water (a straight arm must flex a lot to get any hand
movement
> c> at all) & once the full body/leg load connects with the shoulder
(which
> c> isn't instantaneous) the flexed arm is drawn out straighter than
before
> c> - exactly as we see in so many fine crews.
>
> ARGH this is exactly the opposite then what they tell us to do here in
Italy,
> is our theory of rowing so bad or that our national team boats could go
much
> faster or that our athletes are ignoring our coaches on this subject ?
But Mike, it is exactly what your top boats actually do - and very fine
crews they are too! I liked what you said earlier a lot - I can understand
why there might be a benefit to getting the hands away quickly and that the
inside arm might play a key role in that. But there is a period at the catch
when the blade is moving down to the water (no-one is instananeous!) and
while the blade is being covered and that is exactly the time when all the
top crews - including the ones from your country - bend the inside arm.
David Ballard
Carl Douglas
writes
>In uno strano messaggio del 04 Dec 00 ca...@carldouglas.co.uk (2:333/608.1)
>scrisse al povero All :
> c> A flexed arm is able by a small further flex to hook & load the blade
> c> into the water (a straight arm must flex a lot to get any hand movement
> c> at all) & once the full body/leg load connects with the shoulder (which
> c> isn't instantaneous) the flexed arm is drawn out straighter than before
> c> - exactly as we see in so many fine crews.
>
>ARGH this is exactly the opposite then what they tell us to do here in Italy,
>is our theory of rowing so bad or that our national team boats could go much
>faster or that our athletes are ignoring our coaches on this subject ?
>
>In my opinion the correct way to connect at the catch is to have straight
>arms and coordinate hands rising and slide inversion, this way your legs push
>back your body hangin on the blade/water as soon as possible.
>
>Isn't this what Rob is doing in 1x ?
>
the oarblade up to the speed of the passing water & b) to move the
handle that extra distance required to bend the loom enough to create
any load on the oar (no bend = no load), it is inefficient to use the
legs to move the whole of the body (including rigid arms) instead of
using an initial movement of the hands, arms & upper body to achieve
this essential early movement.
And, yes, crews may go fast while having defects within their technique.
And few fast crews would not go faster if they attended to those
defects.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
CaptStash
wild because he had supposedly developed a technique that was so good he was
actually getting his oars in just before the end of the recovery. A so
called perfect splashless catch. In theory this allowed him to have a
complete connection with the water from the very beginning of the drive. I
never saw him row, but I have fooled around with this technique. It's fun to
try but nearly impossible to do well. Seems to me that done corectly you
would be very fast indeed.
And I hardily agree, just because you are the fastest, doesn't mean you
can't row better and be faster still.
Regards,
CaptStash....
"Carl Douglas" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fJi+FJAN...@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk...
Mike De.Petris
scrisse al povero All :
c> A few years ago Lange won the world championships and drove many
c> coaches wild because he had supposedly developed a technique that was so
c> good he was actually getting his oars in just before the end of the
c> recovery. A so called perfect splashless catch. In theory this allowed
I would really like to see some snapshots, as I watched mr. Lange very well
at the time, but it was many years ago. What I can remember is a catch very
similar to the Rob's catch.
I think that when you are long enough at the catch, the blade has a little
angle respect to the boat direction, so that you can bury it even if you are
still completing the recovery, the blade is actually moving to the boat, not
so much to the bow, I tryed this myself, keeping Rob's timings in mind and I
say it can be done, the real problem is that you have to be near perfect
about balance, squaring time, handle/blade height, and recovery timing, with
a quick accelerated movement of the slide before the catch.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
"Dual Pentium-100 - Compiles in a flash, makes great coffee too!"
CaptStash
"Mike De.Petris" <mi...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it> wrote
in message news:18886...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it...
Mike, while I agree with what you are saying, I'm not quite sure I
understand what you mean about "a quick accelerated movement of the slide
before the catch." That sounds like a boat stopper to me. I do know that a
godd catch has an effortless feel to it and an immediate locking in on the
water. I think that my catch is good enough that I get some free speed that
way. It's one way I am able to beat some of the younger kids who are much
stronger than I am (you listening Joe?). I would love to see them if you
find some pics of Lange.
Regards,
CaptStash....
Mike De.Petris
scrisse al povero All :
c> Because it takes a certain amount of movement of the hands a) to bring
c> the oarblade up to the speed of the passing water & b) to move the
c> handle that extra distance required to bend the loom enough to create
c> any load on the oar (no bend = no load), it is inefficient to use the
c> legs to move the whole of the body (including rigid arms) instead of
c> using an initial movement of the hands, arms & upper body to achieve
c> this essential early movement.
I simply do not agree with this, but I understand your opinion, and maybe
also that different boats ask for different catch, and eight may require arms
work at the catch, considering that most of the work is done moving the body,
but on slow booats such as 1X you have to put pressure on oars, so you have
let your arms work only when needed.
The other consideration will be about tech/physics, so I think you will like
more 8^) The speed relations between body/blade/boat/water is not so simple
at the catch, pushing your legs is actually pushing back the boat, reducing
its speed, add to this the fact that oars have a SMALL angle with the boat at
the catch.
BTW the point may be about something our coach tells us, you have to extend
your legs QUICK at the catch, not HARD, and this is correct as you do not
have so much load until the shaft/loom is bent. I'm not so sure about what
you say bending arms is quicker then extending legs with body weight, you
push the boat back (boat is connect by riggers to oars) so you get the blade
speed, accumulating cynetic energy of your body sending it to bow, with no
arm effort.
One more work, bending your arms you loose a lot of your feeling of the blade
and coordination for catch timing/handles lifting.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
Ti sento, bellissima statua sommersa.... mi ami o nooooo ?
Carl Douglas
writes
>In uno strano messaggio del 09 Dec 00 ca...@carldouglas.co.uk (2:333/608.1)
>scrisse al povero All :
> c> Because it takes a certain amount of movement of the hands a) to bring
> c> the oarblade up to the speed of the passing water & b) to move the
> c> handle that extra distance required to bend the loom enough to create
> c> any load on the oar (no bend = no load), it is inefficient to use the
> c> legs to move the whole of the body (including rigid arms) instead of
> c> using an initial movement of the hands, arms & upper body to achieve
> c> this essential early movement.
>
>I simply do not agree with this, but I understand your opinion, and maybe
>also that different boats ask for different catch, and eight may require arms
>work at the catch, considering that most of the work is done moving the body,
>but on slow booats such as 1X you have to put pressure on oars, so you have
>let your arms work only when needed.
We have to agree to disagree, Mike. There is no fundamental difference
between the mechanics of propulsion of the different boat classes -
similar rules apply to all, with only slight differences in the
constants in the equations.
>
>The other consideration will be about tech/physics, so I think you will like
>more 8^) The speed relations between body/blade/boat/water is not so simple
>at the catch, pushing your legs is actually pushing back the boat, reducing
>its speed,
Which is exactly the point I was making. If you push with the legs
before the blade is engaged you *will* check the boat.
> add to this the fact that oars have a SMALL angle with the boat at
>the catch.
So????
>
>BTW the point may be about something our coach tells us, you have to extend
>your legs QUICK at the catch, not HARD, and this is correct as you do not
>have so much load until the shaft/loom is bent.
You should perhaps discuss this with the late Isaac Newton ;^)? He
would have told you that QUICK = HARD. There is no way to achieve a
rapid reaction without applying a correspondingly large force. With
great respect to your coach's undoubted abilities in general, he is
fundamentally wrong in this one point.
> I'm not so sure about what
>you say bending arms is quicker then extending legs with body weight, you
>push the boat back (boat is connect by riggers to oars) so you get the blade
>speed, accumulating cynetic energy of your body sending it to bow, with no
>arm effort.
Exactly! As you say (& I have already said) you *can* connect the
riggers to the oars by pushing back (checking) the boat. But that's a
lousy way to propel your boat because it increases the speed range in
each stroke & thereby (since drag is strongly non-linear with speed)
increases the power consumed at any given average boat speed.
>
>One more work, bending your arms you loose a lot of your feeling of the blade
>and coordination for catch timing/handles lifting.
And, finally: why are you so worried about those poor, weak & helpless
little arms of yours? Do gymnasts look as if they are losing their
feeling as they swing their entire weight (plus centripetal forces)
around on their slightly bent arms?
You should think of your stroke as the skilled assembly of many small
actions, each blending smoothly into the next - not as one crude great
shove with weak bits to be ignored around the edges:
So you require a fast, minimal check catch, engaged before the onset
of the leg drive (maybe only milliseconds before, but bodies are
perfectly capable of such finesse).
This catch perfectly prepares & applies the load to the oar & the pin
just an instant before (or exactly as) the leg drive connection with the
stretcher drives the body mass against the rigger.
Because this catch causes some bending of the arms (& early movement
of the shoulders) it may have taken the initial arm flex beyond what can
then be easily maintained by the arm muscles against the growing impulse
of the powerful legs & back muscles, you may then see a slight re-
straightening of the arms.
But towards the finish, as the scope & speed of leg & back motion
reduce, you see the arm flex return (progressively) to complete the
finish.
When considering the (relative) weakness of the arms, please remember
that the load on the arm muscles increases only slowly as you first bend
the arm, so a slightly flexed arm can take a huge load, much greater
than it can take when flexed further. Also remember that an arm which
is extended straight (into a locked-out position even) is incapable of
immediate response.
Go & consider my simplified description above. Then watch some ballet
or gymnastics very closely, to study the fluidity of transition of
powerful arm & body movements. Then go & row a single with all that in
mind & tell me what you find.
CaptStash
Carl, I was at first completely disagreeing with you about the beginning of
the catch. Then I closed my eyes and pantomined what I knew to be the way I
take the water. Sure enough, there is a minimal flexing of the arms and some
shoulder movement. So, how about that? I agree with you. The important thing
to understand is that a solid, seamless connection to the water must be made
at the transition from recovery to drive. It is at the ends of the stroke
that we have the greatest potential for checking the boat, as well as the
greatest potential for achieving free speed.
For all single scullers, the easiest way to monitor your check at the catch
is to watch the stern. The less it bobs at the catch the less check you're
causing and the more efficiently you're rowing.
Regards,
CaptStash....
Adriaan Koster
> You should perhaps discuss this with the late Isaac Newton ;^)? He
> would have told you that QUICK = HARD. There is no way to achieve a
> rapid reaction without applying a correspondingly large force. With
> great respect to your coach's undoubted abilities in general, he is
> fundamentally wrong in this one point.
I think there is a common misunderstanding about the difference between
a QUICK catch (a fast movement, requiring a lot of acceleration thus
relatively a lot of force) or an EARLY catch (a movement that starts
well before the legs start pushing). A well-timed (EARLY) catch does not
have to be so QUICK to be efficient. If you watch top-level crews row
you might see that they are taking a lot of time to perform their catch,
in an almost lazy, relaxed movement. They commence their entry movement
so early that the blades are well enough buried by the time they need to
start the stroke again. This requires relaxation and timing, not a
sudden QUICK movement (is this fashionable now, capitalizing words?).
There is also a third confusion, concerning an EASY catch, but that is
something completely off topic (-;
A3aan.
Adriaan Koster
>
> It's not that I row with my inside arm between my legs, but since I
> have to break the elbow anyway, I can kind of wrap it around my inside
> leg, and still be able to place my chest between my legs. I just let
> my knees rest in my armpits at the catch.
Been playing Twister this weekend?
Btw, in reponse to your other post. I don't think one should necessarily
row with a straight back. Natural, strong posture is more the way I
would describe it. Having people row with an unnaturally straightened
back has all sorts of nasty side effects like tension, loss of
connection throughout the stroke, injury.
A3aan.
CaptStash
I have said it before, and I'll say it again -- we all agree more than we
realize. Many top coaches have told me seemingly different things, but upon
further instruction I realized that they were all saying essentially the
same things, just in different ways. Here again, Adrian is saying pretty
much what Carl (and I) and many others have been, only in different words.
What Adrian is talking about is essentially what I was saying that Lange
managed to refine extremely well. The point being, that the catch is not a
sudden boat stopping event, but a smooth and controlled transition that does
not upset the run of the boat.
Regards,
CaptStash....
Mike De.Petris
scrisse al povero All :
c> We have to agree to disagree, Mike. There is no fundamental difference
c> between the mechanics of propulsion of the different boat classes -
c> similar rules apply to all, with only slight differences in the
c> constants in the equations.
This is right, but it is a fact that in longer boats the speed is higher and
so the stroke rate, this way the rower puts more effort on moving his own
body and less applying pressure, comparing to slower boats. Add that faster
boat/water/blade/body means higher forces at the inversion points, but the
speed at which you can dive the blades in is limited by human
capabilities/skill.
c> Which is exactly the point I was making. If you push with the legs
c> before the blade is engaged you *will* check the boat.
I had long toughts on this, mostly today out in my 1x. You HAVE to push right
? So we are discussing WHEN, and you say it is better after having bent your
arms but I think this is not a good idea. The variation of velocity is a
problem because we want the boat to stay in a little range around the mean
speed, BUT the speed of the boat is at max during the recovery, and at
minimum at half drive (a bit earlier), so slowing the boat at the catch seems
not so bad (considering the friction with water, drag) as it will slow down
another bit later completing the leg drive, the real problem I see here is
just not to loose water, but this has to do with rising hands fast and at
correct timing, then push your legs.
>> add to this the fact that oars have a SMALL angle with the boat at
>> the catch.
c> So????
So you have to push with legs slower then bending arms to transmit the same
motion to the blade, but ok this means nothing if we only consider the
component in the direction of the boat. I am not able to fully understand the
mechanic here, having the blades moving very fast outwords comparing to the
leg drive, but seems right to achive a good lifting 8^)
c> would have told you that QUICK = HARD. There is no way to achieve a
c> rapid reaction without applying a correspondingly large force. With
c> great respect to your coach's undoubted abilities in general, he is
c> fundamentally wrong in this one point.
Yes I explained it bad, the meaning is to do a catch that lets you quick go
back with your body and handles connected, instead of hanging at the catch
with big pressure just because you had a lot of stern check or a bad diving
of blades.
c> Exactly! As you say (& I have already said) you *can* connect the
c> riggers to the oars by pushing back (checking) the boat. But that's a
c> lousy way to propel your boat because it increases the speed range in
c> each stroke & thereby (since drag is strongly non-linear with speed)
c> increases the power consumed at any given average boat speed.
I think you can do the catch with legs without checking the boat, just push
quickly down the blades at correct timing, I do not believe that you feel a
load of the body compared to arms bending, you still connect to the blades
and push the footstrecher right ? Even banding your arms you first had to
stop your slide in the recovery and connection to the blade goes to the feet.
Then the system is free (except for drag) so pushing with legs pushes back
the boat but if you connect with water with blades you actually push riggers
to oars and then to water, then the body going back moves blades very fast
outwards.
>> One more work, bending your arms you loose a lot of your feeling of the
>> blade and coordination for catch timing/handles lifting.
c>
c> And, finally: why are you so worried about those poor, weak & helpless
c> little arms of yours? Do gymnasts look as if they are losing their
c> feeling as they swing their entire weight (plus centripetal forces)
c> around on their slightly bent arms?
Ouch, don't tell me this story, they are lifting their own body (ok small
legs) but a rower at the catch before connection has to move a very light
scull/oar, this is another story, should we use gymn dust on hands to
increase grip ?
c> You should think of your stroke as the skilled assembly of many small
c> actions, each blending smoothly into the next - not as one crude great
c> shove with weak bits to be ignored around the edges:
This is how they coach here.
c> So you require a fast, minimal check catch, engaged before the onset
c> of the leg drive (maybe only milliseconds before, but bodies are
c> perfectly capable of such finesse).
c> This catch perfectly prepares & applies the load to the oar & the pin
c> just an instant before (or exactly as) the leg drive connection with
c> the stretcher drives the body mass against the rigger.
Let the body mass on its own, the boat is slowing down remember, you push
your feet/riggers back.
c> Because this catch causes some bending of the arms (& early movement
c> of the shoulders) it may have taken the initial arm flex beyond what
c> can then be easily maintained by the arm muscles against the growing
c> impulse of the powerful legs & back muscles, you may then see a slight
c> re-
c> straightening of the arms.
Now I understand the great difference between Italy and GB technique in
rowing in the last 50 years. I say you can do the catch with straight arms
and you will do less effort then bending it, maybe it is easier to achive a
good catch bending arms, but I am sure you have a good pay off, rising your
skill to do a good straight arms catch like Rob.
c> But towards the finish, as the scope & speed of leg & back motion
c> reduce, you see the arm flex return (progressively) to complete the
c> finish.
This is were the gymnastic imagine comes in mind, to get the best
acceleration and smootness, arms and body as to pull together with a complex
smoot progressive motion.
c> When considering the (relative) weakness of the arms, please remember
c> that the load on the arm muscles increases only slowly as you first
c> bend the arm, so a slightly flexed arm can take a huge load, much
c> greater than it can take when flexed further. Also remember that an arm
I know, but I think it has more to do with blood distribution, keeping the
muscles in action does not help blood to recover lactate, and remember that
you need each single muscle fiber to buffer the large amount of lactic acid
produced by all that many big muscle masses involved.
c> which is extended straight (into a locked-out position even) is incapable
c> of immediate response.
This is where you require high skill.
c> Go & consider my simplified description above. Then watch some ballet
c> or gymnastics very closely, to study the fluidity of transition of
c> powerful arm & body movements. Then go & row a single with all that in
c> mind & tell me what you find.
THis is where I put my last consideration. Ballet and gym is mostly an art to
use impulses applied to your body, maximising the effects of muscle
contraction, but let's go back to our catch. If you connect very soon bending
arms, you find yourself connected to blades with legs in the weakest position
where you need max power, so do you still think it is right ?
So we have at the catch:
- boat is slowing down because of body inversion, so there is do drag problem
(slower=less drag)
- angle of the oar/scull gives you more speed on the blade moving body
instead of arms
- quick catch can give you a quick connect
- leg push has not the body involved, as the system is free, this is not an
erg
- legs must extend and give full power possibily not at max compression but
in a better position, so immediate full connection is not a must
Please Carl, continue on this, I think it is good and don't think I'm
mind-closed, just a bit ignorant, based on my own boat feelings.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
In the shuffling madness of the locomotive breath...
Mark Ruscoe
with straight inside arms (and the video particularly focuses on the 7
man)
and that's what Ron's talking about, but check out the rest of the crew.
A number of them are quite clearly not catching with straight inside
arms.
so, with different video shots of the same crew, you could coach that a
bent inside arm is the "correct" technique ;-)
"Gareth G. Price" wrote:
>
> I've found the straight arm catch. The GB Lwt 8+ from 95 (gold medal I
> think) on the Ron Needs training video that the ARA use to teach on the
> bronze lecture course. I'll see if I can take a picture and get it up on
> the web.
>
> Gareth
>
C H MAGGIULLI
if you think about it mathematics or physics, your inside arm has to be
bent. I mean, you are sitting straight in the boat, but at the catch, your
oar is not at a 90 degree angle, so it's closer to one side of your body,
and therefore, unless one of your arms is deformed and therefore shorter,
you have to (slightly) bend your inside arm. If you were to trace the path
your oar makes out of the water, it's an arc, and your body's path up and
down the slide is a straight line. There's just no way it would work!!! You
are definately right.
Gareth G. Price
catch. Your body might be going up and down the slide in a straight line
but you pivot and your shoulders follow the arc of the blade therefore the
arms are straight. Photo's will be appearing on the CBRC website ASAP.
Gareth.
C H MAGGIULLI <BO...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:916pd1$22s0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Adriaan Koster
> Photo's will be appearing on the CBRC website ASAP.
>
> Gareth.
promises, promises...
(-;
A3aan.
David K Walker
experience are all very well, but perceptions and the point of time at
which still photos are taken differ.
The oar blade must accelerate rapidly to approx 8 knots relative to the
boat in order to bury the blade early enough to avoid kicking the boat
backwards, even with a soft and early catch. Only the lightest parts of
the body can do that. They are the arms and flexible shoulders (not
lifting the top of the spine) moving horizontally. Therefore, the arms
must be slight bent just before and after the catch, and must be
extended loosely and fully at the instant of the catch itself, with
sculling oars.
So the advanced sweep oar rower does the same with inner arm at least,
which is clearly visible in e.g. the best women's eights.
Adriaan Koster wrote:
>
> Carl Douglas wrote:
>
> > You should perhaps discuss this with the late Isaac Newton ;^)? He
> > would have told you that QUICK = HARD. There is no way to achieve a
> > rapid reaction without applying a correspondingly large force. With
> > great respect to your coach's undoubted abilities in general, he is
> > fundamentally wrong in this one point.
>
> I think there is a common misunderstanding about the difference between
> a QUICK catch (a fast movement, requiring a lot of acceleration thus
> relatively a lot of force) or an EARLY catch (a movement that starts
> well before the legs start pushing). A well-timed (EARLY) catch does not
> have to be so QUICK to be efficient. If you watch top-level crews row
> you might see that they are taking a lot of time to perform their catch,
> in an almost lazy, relaxed movement.
Very interesting, indeed. Well, what do we mean by a SLOW catch ? I
think the most productive definition of a slow catch is a catch in which
drive is applied before the blade is covered, so that the rower is
"creaming" the surface of the water and not getting a grip.
We see and hear a lot about fast hands and fast catches, but the fastest
boats have a continuous flowing motion and no hurry anywhere. The
reason they don't have slow catches and slow hands is that their body
movements occur in natural sequence, and what gives natural sequence is
mileage.
> They commence their entry movement
> so early that the blades are well enough buried by the time they need to
> start the stroke again. This requires relaxation and timing, not a
> sudden QUICK movement (is this fashionable now, capitalizing words?).
>
> There is also a third confusion, concerning an EASY catch, but that is
> something completely off topic (-;
An easy catch also means in practice burying the blade completely before
applying drive, and hence it is not a slow catch however much time is
used.
Best wishes,
David Walker
Fana Roklubb, Bergen, Norway
Dr. Paul Thomas
> The oar blade must accelerate rapidly to approx 8 knots relative to the
> boat in order to bury the blade early enough to avoid kicking the boat
> backwards, even with a soft and early catch. Only the lightest parts of
> the body can do that. They are the arms and flexible shoulders (not
> lifting the top of the spine) moving horizontally. Therefore, the arms
> must be slight bent just before and after the catch, and must be
> extended loosely and fully at the instant of the catch itself, with
> sculling oars.
Simple calculation shows that for a sculler travelling at 5m/s, with
sculls
288cm long and an inboard length of 88cm, reaching forward so that the
sculls
make an angle of 70 degrees with a line perpendicular to the boat, the
sculler's
shoulders must move back to the bows at (upper bound) 26cm/s so that the
blade
enters the water vertically.
In my view, it takes no effort at all to use the leg drive to produce a
velocity
of 26cm/s in the torso and shoulders without opening the back or bending
the
arms at all. Keep the arms straight and---importantly---relaxed at the
catch,
I say :-)
Paul.
Walter Martindale
"match the speed of the water going by". You're trying to reach a long way
out, stick an oar in water, and move past the oar with as little
acceleration/deceleration as possible
The "best" actually have their oar come out of the water closer to the finish
line than they put it in. Please don't believe me on this - take a video from
overhead of the best scullers you can possibly find and see for yourself.
"Matching the speed of the passing water" means that you've had to push on the
boat somehow to change directions. this, of course implies that the 90 kg
athlete has pushed sternwards on the 14 kg boat for some amount of time before
the blades have entered to prevent the boat's being kicked towards the start
line relative to the movement of the entire boat/athlete/blades system.
Arms straight, relaxed and all are important, but more important is the timing
of the person throwing his/her body mass around wrt when the sticks are put in
the pond.
Walter
Sorry, I'm just a colonist, so I can't possibly understand this stuff.
david.ballard
> catch,
> I say :-)
>
> Paul.
What no-one has yet explained adequately in this thread is why - if straight
arms are so efficient - almost all top class crews used bent inside arms in
the Olympics. Like 95% or more of them. Not just a question of when under
greatest stress either, Gareth, for it was just the same for crews leading a
heat by miles as in the closest parts of a final.
When a crew had straighter arms, at least some of the crew had bent arms.
But there were many crews with 100% bent inside arms. I haven't yet seen a
picture of a crew with 100% straight inside arms from any source.
This is true even of the crews which others have claimed to have been
coached for straight arms - e.g. Italian IV- and GB IV- Is coaching always
this ineffective?
And the crews with straighter arms (eg Egyptian coxless IV) were not
necessarily paragons of technique - and they did miss a lot of water at the
catch, as Carl predicts.
By the way, I do now accept that some athletes do take the catch with
straight arms. A small minority it is true, and I can't see why they would,
but they can and do.
I suspect a good deal of belief in the efficacy of the straight inside arm,
largely unbacked by evidence. But I will be charitable. This is a time of
year when blind faith is often praised!
For what it is worth I have a photo of my father using the straight inside
arm in the Jesus, Cambridge crew which won the HORR in 1952. The crew looked
a mess (he was rowing at 7 in the 'birthing' position and 6 rowed with legs
together, and the arms were all different) but they shoved hard (> 40 down
the boats at Putney) and won. And they whopped the Cambridge crew the week
before in their final course before the famous blizzard boat race.
So perhaps it doesn't even matter all that much. That's my conclusion.
Happy Christmas to all
David Ballard
Carl Douglas
>David K Walker wrote:
>
<snipped>
>Simple calculation shows that for a sculler travelling at 5m/s, with
>sculls
>288cm long and an inboard length of 88cm, reaching forward so that the
>sculls
>make an angle of 70 degrees with a line perpendicular to the boat, the
>sculler's
>shoulders must move back to the bows at (upper bound) 26cm/s so that the
>blade
>enters the water vertically.
>
>In my view, it takes no effort at all to use the leg drive to produce a
>velocity
>of 26cm/s in the torso and shoulders without opening the back or bending
>the
>arms at all. Keep the arms straight and---importantly---relaxed at the
>catch,
>I say :-)
>
Against what do your feet react (if you disbelieve that the very
earliest phase of the catch should be engaged with hands & arms) to
accelerate your entire body mass by whatever amount you think necessary
to get a clean entry?
From what you're saying, you will choose to react your entire body mass
against the stretcher, thus causing a backwards acceleration of the boat
of perhaps 5x your own forwards acceleration. That will be seen as a
mighty check in the boat before your blades enter & engage. It is a
pretty unscientific way of applying work to the blades &, by increasing
the boat's velocity fluctuations, also increases it's time-averaged
fluid drag. And, as I have said before, your proposed action is as
ergonomically sound as trying to knock in a nail by jumping up & down
while holding the hammer with a rigid arm.
It is really much more clever & efficient to get the initial engagement
of the blade by reacting transiently against bodily inertia - which is
done by relatively small movements of the fingers, arms & shoulders
only. It is also perfectly possible (with a bit of thought & practice)
to do this. Then you get the blade loaded against the water, & hence
against the pin, an instant before the feet hit the stretcher so that
the boat, instead of being entirely free to shoot off backwards
(relatively speaking) as you stamp your feet, is already anchored in its
smooth forward motion by the immersed & loaded blades when the load hits
the stretcher.
Happy Christmas to all :-))))
laurentroumaya
Obviously, there are always some exceptions (Katrin Boron, Iztok Cop,...),
but the best example, I think, of how efficient can be this is the Italin 4X
: arms straight, back straight, shoulders relaxed.... and every other crew
is behind !
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message :
VWq16.12952$ca6.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
david.ballard
Yes - this thread has been about rowing not sculling (though what Carl has
been posting is making me think a bit about that as well). But I don't
disagree with Paul for sculling, of course.
David