Picking Sides (Bow or stroke debate)
Horse
I am a novice coach (second season coaching, after a few rowing) and I am
now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its course?
Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
Thanks for your time
Horse
Koster J.A.
I have never had to pick sides for a rower, usually they develop a predilection
themselves. If I had to select a completely unexperienced freshman eight I
would take into consideration:
*strength: try to maintain some sort of balance between port and starboard side
*personality: see "personality traits in an eight" by our own Sully. Although
humorous, there is a quintessence of truth in the article.
http://www.wsu.edu:8000/~i8810689/traits.html
*height: I would avoid putting rowers with very different heights in adjoining
seats. You can take this into account when thinking about sides.
*stroke potential: some rowers are more coordinated and rythmic than others
(althougg everybody can develop over time). Consider who could be stroke, and
keep in mind you might need a back-up (spare) stroke in the course of the
season. Freshman strokes usually don't "last" a complete season and can very
well be given a few weeks "rest" at 6 or even 4 in the boat, to work on their
own technique instead of only stroking the boat.
*rower's own preference
A3aan.
--
ATTENTION! MY EMAIL ADDRES HAS CHANGED TO a3...@mail.com
Adriaan Koster room: P1.46 / +31 20 4447658
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~a3aan tel: +31 6 24237395
a3...@mail.com fax: +31 20 8836014
CHOCDEV
>now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
>rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its course?
>Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
>someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
>
>
>Horse
>
I sometimes considered left-handed folks to be candidates for port-side,
because I thought they would be more likely to hold on to the end of the oar
with their dominant hand. I also put my best two or three pure athletes of
middling to upper height on port to develop them as strokes. I also spread out
my bigest people on both sides to try to balance an engine room, but some years
all the big folks on one side quit anyhow!
I have absolutlely no evidence that any of this worked to make my crews faster,
although we did have two of our strokes go to the Oly's. To throw any thoughts
of logic right out the window, more starboards than ports from the program made
the World, Pan Am and Goodwill national teams! Go figure!
Good luck.
JD
Horse
experience (I am right handed), I found that when I transfered over from bow
to stroke side, there was little difference (but I guess it all depends on
the rower). Not a bad idea about having spares for stroke. Anyway thanks
for your help
Horse
<snip>
>
>JD
Horse
then see what developes from that.
Thanks again
Horse
<snip>
chris harrison
> I am a novice coach (second season coaching, after a few rowing) and I am
> now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
> rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its course?
> Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
> someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
On top of all the various size/shape considerations, trying to pick out
the "natural" strokes and always putting the little guy at bow, it has
to be a good thing to keep the rowers as ambidextrous as possible.
It might take the boat a little longer to settle (in a long-term, season
context, rather than in outing terms) but for their development as
rowers, being comfortable whichever side the blade is pointing has got
to be a good thing.
--
"Not how the world is, is the mystical, but that it is."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein
chris harrison - http://www.lowfield.co.uk/
Michael Sullivan
>
> Hi
>
> I am a novice coach (second season coaching, after a few rowing) and I am
> now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
> rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its course?
> Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
> someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
What I did coaching frosh was to randomly assign seats for about two
weeks, keeping them on side they start, then switch for a week, stbds
to port, port to stbd. It slows progression on the one side, but the
overall co-ordination gain helps a lot, and there's a side benefit of
rowers not depending so much on inside hand, they do learn to use both
better.
after the 3 weeks, they can pick their side. By then, some of the
try-it-a-week and leave folks were gone, and before I boated them
up, I'd look for a balance of athletic talent. Ususally one or two
guys would get switched from the side they picked so that I'd have
a talent and size balance.
A nice advantage of this system, especially in a small program, is
that as rowers start dropping off, and you lose more of one
side than the other, it's not quite as hard to make a switch,
especially in the fall.
Like JD stated, did it work? hellifiknow. It made my life easier,
and isn't THAT what counts? :^)
Mike
Walter Martindale
row for the first 2-3 months. This may slow down some wins early in the
season, but if you explain that it's for the health of their lower backs to
prevent muscular and flexibility (from tendons) imbalances, they may accept
it, they'll be able in future to row "any boat, any seat, any time", and if
a Starboard seat was empty they wouldn't have to say "Sorry, I only row
Port".....
Consider the long term benefits of being able to do both sides. Settle a
crew later on and train the last month or so of the important races on the
one side, then in the "off season" get them back switching frequently, or
sculling.
W
Horse <horseyC...@beer.com> wrote in article
<7ukk9h$jvc$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
> Hi
>
> I am a novice coach (second season coaching, after a few rowing) and I am
> now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
> rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its
course?
> Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
> someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
>
Nick Suess
Walter Martindale <wmar...@nospam.clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:01bf1b2f$3febe3e0$48c2a7cb@kctbjuqk...
> With novices I'd strongly recommend boating them on opposite sides every
> row for the first 2-3 months. This may slow down some wins early in the
> season, but if you explain that it's for the health of their lower backs
to
> prevent muscular and flexibility (from tendons) imbalances, they may
accept
> it, they'll be able in future to row "any boat, any seat, any time", and
if
> a Starboard seat was empty they wouldn't have to say "Sorry, I only row
> Port".....
>
> Consider the long term benefits of being able to do both sides. Settle a
> crew later on and train the last month or so of the important races on the
> one side, then in the "off season" get them back switching frequently, or
> sculling.
I agree with the Kiwi Canuck. I always coach novices to aspire to becoming
"any boat, any seat, any time" rowers. I don't necessarily change their
sides every outing, but certainly try to prevent them becoming one-side
wonders. And just like Walter, if they have eventually settled into one side
for a racing season, I get them to change during the off period, so that
they approach the following season thinking ambidextrously.
I have only ever encountered three novice rowers whom I considered to be
genuinely one-sided, and all had significant physical asymmetries as the
result of past injuries.
And one of my favourite coaching tricks for regatta crews is that if the
whole thing just isn't quite coming right, and I'm tearing my hair out
trying to think why (those who know me will have seen the effects of this),
and wondering desperately whatever else I have left to try, I just switch a
couple of rowers from opposite sides. I reckon that 7 times out of 10 it
works.
N
Persephone Wynn
row, equally competently, on either side, that way they will be more likely
to get a row. While you are about it why not teach them to scull, most
scullers can row (either side) but a lot of rowers cannot scull and can
only row on one side.
P
John Mulholland
learned in the '60s and am condemned to perpetual bow side. When I joined my
present club and we needed some experience at stroke, I cheated; we
re-rigged the boat so I could stroke it from bow side!
Good luck,
John Mulholland
Walter Martindale <wmar...@nospam.clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:01bf1b2f$3febe3e0$48c2a7cb@kctbjuqk...
> With novices I'd strongly recommend boating them on opposite sides every
> row for the first 2-3 months. This may slow down some wins early in the
> season, but if you explain that it's for the health of their lower backs
to
> prevent muscular and flexibility (from tendons) imbalances, they may
accept
> it, they'll be able in future to row "any boat, any seat, any time", and
if
> a Starboard seat was empty they wouldn't have to say "Sorry, I only row
> Port".....
>
> Consider the long term benefits of being able to do both sides. Settle a
> crew later on and train the last month or so of the important races on the
> one side, then in the "off season" get them back switching frequently, or
> sculling.
> W
Jon Bond
When I joined my
> present club and we needed some experience at stroke, I cheated; we
> re-rigged the boat so I could stroke it from bow side!
Heck, thats not cheating! All three of our varsity boats were starboard
rigged, IE, the stroke rowed starboard (or bow side) and the bow was port
(or stroke side). Confusing in England? Yes! Confusing everywhere else?
Not too bad, although being a cox, it can get a bit confusing between the
bow pair if you switch boats sometimes.
However, there is a good reason for ambidextrous rowers. When my boat was
damaged (not my fault, I can assure you, and the coach doesn't think so
either, because I'm still in 2nd boat, and am in the running for 1st next
season [and I'm only a sophomore]) we had to switch to another boat, a GH
King, Wooden, with all the bolts stuck in their regular side because the
wood had swelled over time. What did we do? Well, our coach simply
switched bow 6's pairs (IE, bow became 2, 2 became bow) and had our stern
pair simply row on the other side! Good thing they were Bisweptual, because
our stroke has a fairly good catch and a good, solid rythm, and our 7 is
great at motivating the crew (sometimes it just works better if a rower
yells something than if a coxswain yells it, seeing as how its an unexpected
voice, and they feel more of a "kinship" to them). So, yes, try to make the
rowers bisweptual. Start 'em out for 2 weeks on one side, then switch 'em,
switch 'em back again for a week, and see where their stroke looks better.
Unless you have a one side-power boat, keep 'em where they row better. A
great way to work on technique is to have everyone switch sides, as they
really have to think about it then, too. And the Varsity coach will
appreciate being able to switch rowers from side to side as need be!
Good luck!
Jon "Commander" Bond
Horse
Michael Sullivan wrote in message <380D9D...@forsythe.stanford.edu>...
<snip>
>A nice advantage of this system, especially in a small program, is
>that as rowers start dropping off, and you lose more of one
>side than the other, it's not quite as hard to make a switch,
>especially in the fall.
Know what you mean, I have sort of not bothered to assign a rower to a side
and make them stick to it, as much as possible I have tried to give them a
go at either side. We do have a relatively small program, so yeah I agree
that it does make sense.
Anyway thanks
Horse
John C. Sundqvist
Horse <horseyC...@beer.com> wrote in message
news:7ukk9h$jvc$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
> Hi
>
> I am a novice coach (second season coaching, after a few rowing) and I am
> now coaching sweep oar. My question is how do you determine what side a
> rower is? Do you just chuck em into any side and let nature run its
course?
> Or perhaps if they are right or left handed? Anyway if not then could
> someone please suggest a technique/method/ be used to determine this.
>
> Thanks for your time
>
> Horse
>
for them to row either side with sweep at any given time.
It may take more time when starting with sweep rowing, but have them learn
how to row either side. It is better in the long run. (Just ask Ben Hur)
It gives the rower a better chance to make a seat in a boat. It helps a
coach to make up boats. When a rower is having problems with technique,
switch him/her over to the other side (if they can do the basics on either
side) the change of side often helps by a simple change of focus.
edgar cove
<otakuk...@home.com> writes
>>snip<
>When I joined my
>> present club and we needed some experience at stroke, I cheated; we
>> re-rigged the boat so I could stroke it from bow side!
>
>Heck, thats not cheating! All three of our varsity boats were starboard
>rigged, IE, the stroke rowed starboard (or bow side) and the bow was port
>(or stroke side). Confusing in England? Yes! Confusing everywhere else?
>Not too bad, although being a cox, it can get a bit confusing between the
>bow pair if you switch boats sometimes.
>
When you cox a boat rigged for bowside stroke do you still issue
commands to 'bowside' and 'strokeside' and are these the 'normal' sides
or do you reverse the meaning too?
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
John Mulholland
John Mulholland
Nick Suess <suc...@networx.net.au> wrote in message
news:3810a...@news.highway1.com.au...
> > ..................have them learn
> > how to row either side. It is better in the long run. (Just ask Ben
Hur)
>
> I saw the movie at least twice. Ben was a bowside.
>
> Z
>
>
Michael Sullivan
>
> > ..................have them learn
> > how to row either side. It is better in the long run. (Just ask Ben Hur)
>
> I saw the movie at least twice. Ben was a bowside.
No, no, I'm pretty sure he was a port(strokeside),
didn't enemy ships ram port side barely missing ol'
Chuck?
I'll buy the first round of beer if I'm wrong.
Mike
Jon Bond
> When you cox a boat rigged for bowside stroke do you still issue
> commands to 'bowside' and 'strokeside' and are these the 'normal' sides
> or do you reverse the meaning too?
From what I know, in England the sides switch (I think... just to make it
confusing!) I'm in the US, so I just go by port and starboard. keeps it
easy that way.
Jon "Commander" Bond
Nick Suess
> how to row either side. It is better in the long run. (Just ask Ben Hur)
I saw the movie at least twice. Ben was a bowside.
Z
Nick Suess
>... but did he have a choice?
>John Mulholland
No. The coach at that club had an authoritative rather than consultative
management style.
> No, no, I'm pretty sure he was a port(strokeside),
> didn't enemy ships ram port side barely missing ol'
> Chuck?
>
> I'll buy the first round of beer if I'm wrong.
> Mike
Thanks for that, Sully. I'm heading past the video store today, so it looks
like a call in is required.
And how's this for overposting, Adriaan?
N
Tim Granger
As far as I know, the sides stay the same - to change them would just
be really confusing. All it means is that stroke is a bowsider, and
bow is a strokesider. The cox in my novice crew had to deal with a
bow-rigged boat on her first outing ever, which made explaining why
one side was called strokeside and one side bowside a little tricky...
Tim Granger
--
Rob Roy & Kings College Boat Clubs, Cambridge, UK
Nick Suess
> > No, no, I'm pretty sure he (Ben Hur) was a port(strokeside),
> > I'll buy the first round of beer if I'm wrong.
Well, I'll be damned, you're right, Mike. The beer's on me. But if you're in
California and I'm in WA, we'll have to find a mid-way neutral venue for
this session. How about the brewing capital of the universe? Forget
Milwaukee, forget Pilsen, even overlook Masham and Hook Norton, and go to
Burton on Trent, where they not only produce a nectar of the gods called
Marston's Pedigree, but the biggest brewery in town makes a beer called Bass
!
Now a while back I raised the intellectual tone of this newsgroup with
discussions on rowing in literature, and we talked about "Three Men in a
Boat", "Our Mutual Friend", and quite recently "Catch 22". Now to be
completely on-topic, let's turn our attention to "The Wind in the Willows".
One of the animals, I'm almost certain it was Ratty, was an adept sculler.
But he had neither strokeside nor bowside blades, as it was the artful
technique of sculling over the stern that he did.
N
Jeremy Fagan
>
> Well, I'll be damned, you're right, Mike. The beer's on me. But if you're
in
> California and I'm in WA, we'll have to find a mid-way neutral venue for
> this session. How about the brewing capital of the universe? Forget
> Milwaukee, forget Pilsen, even overlook Masham and Hook Norton, and go to
> Burton on Trent, where they not only produce a nectar of the gods called
> Marston's Pedigree, but the biggest brewery in town makes a beer called
Bass
> !
Jeremy
Burton Leander Rowing Club
chris harrison
>
> > <snip>
> > When you cox a boat rigged for bowside stroke do you still issue
> > commands to 'bowside' and 'strokeside' and are these the 'normal' sides
> > or do you reverse the meaning too?
>
> From what I know, in England the sides switch (I think... just to make it
> confusing!) I'm in the US, so I just go by port and starboard. keeps it
> easy that way.
Blimey, that would be too confusing. Expecting the middle four of an
eight to remember their number and how to row and what they're called as
a group? That's just asking for trouble.
Analogous to watching the Rugby yesterday and that most of the
Springboks weren't singing along to their new national anthem. I mean,
expecting the second row to be able sing without a song sheet, that's
just unfair ;)
Trevor Chambers
>
> Blimey, that would be too confusing. Expecting the middle four of an
> eight to remember their number and how to row and what they're called as
> a group? That's just asking for trouble.
>
I remember the season before last (?) when umpires started trying to use
Port/Starboard in the UK....mass confusion with poor WN 1x's scatterring
all over the river in panicky reactions as Umpires shouted themselves
hoarse...
It didn't work!
Red = the drink port = Portside is what I remember, but in the heat of
a race
you revert to type, and s/side or b/side is what's ingrained...
Trevor
Sudbury RC
Michael Sullivan
>
> > > No, no, I'm pretty sure he (Ben Hur) was a port(strokeside),
> > > I'll buy the first round of beer if I'm wrong.
>
LMAO. I went to get the definitive answer from my wife
who is a HUGE Chuck Heston fan. Ben Hur is her favorite
movie and her memory is far better than mine.
I explained our question, told her what I thought the
answer was and why, that he was rowing port.
She told me he was starboard. Since she's not rowing
savvy, I asked her to show me which side, and she
confirmed starboard.
ROFL now. I was ready to concede the beer, since wife
is such an expert on Heston films.
I shouldn't have told her which side I thought he rowed,
she always first assumes I'm wrong before deciding anything
for herself.
> California and I'm in WA, we'll have to find a mid-way neutral venue for
> this session. How about the brewing capital of the universe? Forget
good beer is wasted on me. I enjoy it immensely, but have no
pretense about having any taste. Getting good beer for me is like
feeding a dog a Filet Mignon, sure he loves it...
He wags his tail for the Alpo too!
Now to decide whether to take her on over HER answer...
Nah, it's futile, the answer musta been right, somehow I asked the
wrong question.
:^)
Sully
Nick Suess
> Ben Hur is her favorite
> movie and her memory is far better than mine.
Then yours must be way worse than mine, and I have CRAFT disease! Went into
the video store on Saturday arvo and was ready to invest my 3 bucks in
getting Ben out, and fast forward to the trireme bit in order to finally get
this one settled. I might even have watched it through again if I found a
spare 3 hours. But I just glanced at the back of the case thing the video's
in, and there was a still of Ben rowing. Strokeside!
Pity about your lack of appreciation of beer, but at least we have found out
via this oblique route that Bass sponsors the Burton regatta, and but for
your fishing post of so long ago, we'd never have known that. Perhaps Jeremy
will also tell us what that stretch of the Trent is like, what distance they
row, and all sorts of other interestinf stuff. I've never rowed there, but I
have played cricket on the Marston's ground, where the post-match
hospitality in the social club was most welcomingly liquid.
OK, so can we now keep this one going as yet another "rowing in movies"
thread? Sadly nobody picked up on the "rowing in literature" one with "Wind
in the Willows". But then, as touched on in all the recent comments about
the middle 4 of an 8, most rowers can't read beyond Dr Seuss. That's why my
contibutions to RSR are so invaluable !
N
Koster J.A.
(Stuff...)
> And how's this for overposting, Adriaan?
Aw, c'mon you can do better than this! Sheesh!! (and other Yankee slang)
Jeremy Fagan
> Pity about your lack of appreciation of beer, but at least we have found
out
> via this oblique route that Bass sponsors the Burton regatta, and but for
> your fishing post of so long ago, we'd never have known that. Perhaps
Jeremy
> will also tell us what that stretch of the Trent is like, what distance
they
> row, and all sorts of other interestinf stuff. I've never rowed there, but
I
> have played cricket on the Marston's ground, where the post-match
> hospitality in the social club was most welcomingly liquid.
We have around 6km that we train on, although we can go another km
downstream before a weir, and x km upstream, until your boat hits the bottom
(or you get stuck in the weed...). Since the river's not navigable, we have
a local agreement where we row on the left, since it is easier for boating
and for most of the big corners on the river. Although the river's not very
wide in places, we have around 1200m where the regatta is held the weekend
after Henley and the weekend before the Nat. Champs. (and would make a very
good warm-up regatta for the Nats. since it is so close to Nottingham...)
Again, since the river's not navigable, there are only the two rowing clubs,
a canoe club, one motor launch that does tours of the river at the weekends
in the summer, some Sea Cadets, and a powerboat club (the bane of all our
lives) that use the river. Oh, and the usual rash of fishermen. This means
that it's usually fairly clear on the river for training.
The two clubs are Trent R.C. and Burton Leander R.C. I think that it's fair
to say that the town can only really support one rowing club, but the
history of the two clubs means that they'll never amalgamate. Back in the
days when rowing in England was a class-dominated structure, Trent was for
the 'working classes', Leander for the middle classes, and the (defunct
since the start of the century) Burton Rowing Club for the aristocracy. Now
of course, there's no difference between the two clubs, but plenty of
rivalry. At the moment, Leander is certainly the most successful club, but
that changes every few years.
Rowing in Burton is picking up, especially over the last three years at
Leander, where the current squad is now about 30 active members strong (a
lot for such a small club). The atmosphere is superb, with most of the
rowers being locals who have learnt their rowing in Burton. And with the
captain being a butcher, and the treasurer working in quality control at
Bass, the club barbecues are something special!
Sorry to bore you, but someone did ask.
Jeremy
(currently back in Oxford, but still with links in Burton)
Nick Suess
Jeremy Fagan wrote in message
..............the regatta is held the weekend
> after Henley and the weekend before the Nat. Champs
That means that it's the same weekend as Llandaff regatta, which explains
why I've never been there
> The two clubs are Trent R.C. and Burton Leander R.C. I think that it's
fair
> to say that the town can only really support one rowing club, but the
> history of the two clubs means that they'll never amalgamate. Back in the
> days when rowing in England was a class-dominated structure, Trent was for
> the 'working classes', Leander for the middle classes, and the (defunct
> since the start of the century) Burton Rowing Club for the aristocracy.
Now there's a coincidence, because up until the very recent unpleasantness
(1939-45) a similar situation existed in Cardiff. The club named after the
river, Taff Rowing Club, was for working men, and Cardiff Rowing Club was
for "gentlemen". Their boatsheds were side by side on the only rowable
section of the Taff, immediately above Llandaff weir. But after the clubs
were abandoned for the duration, those members of both who returned at the
cessation of hostilities found both boatsheds derelict and all the boats
gone except for a couple that some responsible citizen had quite remarkably
rescued from the mudflats of the bay. So the only way to establish the
critical mass necessary to get re-established was to amalgamate, and thus
Llandaff RC was born in 1946. There's lovely!
In the golden jubilee year of Llandaff, a major new development was opened
by a couple of guys just back from America. One's called Redgrave, and he's
a good mate of Peter Williams.
And if anybody thinks that Britain has put those old class attitudes way
behind it, just try flying in economy on "The world's favourite (sic)
airline".
N