Height in the boat - any advice on rigging?
david.ballard
Some while ago I bought an old sculling boat which I've been doing up. It's
a 1987 Ray Sims made of wood with a synthetic laminate on the inside. Having
done it up, I've been learning about how to rig it and seem to be getting
close to where I want it. I have found the whole process fascinating -
really enjoyable to see how adjusting stretcher angle etc makes a big
difference to length of stroke in the water!
Currently the pins are vertical in both dimensions and I have 5 degrees
stern pitch on the swivels, which are level with each other.
Rather to my surprise it seems that I am rather small for the boat. I am 6
foot (1.83 metres) and 92 kg (no comments please!). The evidence is that my
rigging books suggest that I am too high in the boat. John MacArthur says
the height
of work should be 24-26cm for a sculler, but I am 27cm. Terry O'Neill says
heels to waterline and waterline to lowest point of seat should both be in
the range 7-9 cm. He says that these are the most important measures in
fitting athlete to boat. I am currently 6cm heels to waterline (will drop my
feet by 2cm or so to get within the range). I am 10.5 waterline to seat,
however, so am outside the range.
I'm fairly sure that I am doing the measurements correctly.
I seem to have no way of getting the seat closer to the waterline. Nor can I
see a way of reducing the height of the work further (unless I put wedges
in, in which case I will presumably increase lateral pitch from 0 to perhaps
2 degrees). That is, unless I get even further away from my ideal weight of
perhaps 87 kg! Of course, if I do get slimmer then the height issue might
get worse!
I like the boat (which is just as well given all the dosh and time I spent
on doing it up!). I do find it a bit difficult to sit, but have always put
that down to my incompetence as a sculler and in any event it's not too bad.
Are there any comments? Are there any standard tricks for reducing my height
in the boat? Loads of you seem to have a lot more experience than me on
this!
David Ballard
Tel (44) 1672 520561
email: david....@ntlworld.com
Tim Granger
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>of work should be 24-26cm for a sculler, but I am 27cm. Terry O'Neill says
>heels to waterline and waterline to lowest point of seat should both be in
>the range 7-9 cm. He says that these are the most important measures in
>fitting athlete to boat. I am currently 6cm heels to waterline (will drop my
>feet by 2cm or so to get within the range). I am 10.5 waterline to seat,
>however, so am outside the range.
Most rigging books (including the John McArthur book which I have
in front of me) tends to say their measurements are just guidelines
or starting points. Is the current height setting you have actually
too high? I tend to find that I enjoy sculling boats set up as high
as possible *as long as I can keep the finishes in* (without pulling
up to my ears...). Trying sitting at backstops with the blades
square and buried, and see how high up your body the blade handles
are - if you can comfortably pull up that level keeping your wrists
and forearms horizontal then it's probably okay. Just make sure
that you're sitting up straight, though.
Many people row with lateral pitch set at one degree, so putting
a one degree wedge in to get the gates lower might actually be
okay. I'm sure that Carl would be willing to make you a pair of
custom riggers to get the right height range if all else fails!
Tim
Philip Barton
a different seat with lower bearers can be used to drop you in the boat by
10mm or so - even geting one with holes in may help!
In the end, what feels right usually is right, and any measurements you find
in books can only be guidelines or starting points.
Phil.
Carl Douglas
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> writes
You can over-specify your rigging and that some coaches do just that.
We all come different sizes & shapes. Fast rowers (men) come between
170cm/67" & 211cm/83" tall, which represents a height variation of
almost +/-10%. So it seems that the recommendations you are discussing
here should show similar percentage variations according to you own
stature - height off water between 22.5 & 27.5cm, etc.
I wonder how anyone can *define* that the oarlock must be this, or that,
precise distance above the water? There's minimal "design" in oarblades
& oars, & a heck of a lot of cut & try - the things are empirically
designed. Maybe one day we can change that? But meanwhile let's accept
that there is not and cannot (presently) be a scientific definition of a
"correct" height, or angle between oar-loom & water surface, only a good
starting-off point?
It helps to remember that you can over-define any dimension. If you
define both seat *&* gate height above water, you cannot also define
gate height above seat (work height) - as I've had to explain on more
than one occasion. Also, someone tall in the body will clearly need
more work height than someone shorter.
Again for the heels. And please tell me why this, or that, particular
depth of heels below the water surface is any more "correct" than any
other? Surely, since we all have different physical capabilities &
techniques (even among the best rowers), there must be quite a wide
range of optimum heel levels? I once had someone tell me their heels
must be at a level which, it turned out, was below the skin of the
single they were about to buy! I had gently to explain that, while it
might be done, the 2 bumps I'd have to build into the hull for his heels
would seriously impair boat speed. Sometimes the requirements of fluid
dynamics have to take precedence over dogma.
And while on the subject of seat height: how is it that a particular
height above water is seen as optimum? It is a simple fact that most
rowers want their boats to be more stable. The best way to achieve this
is to lower the seat height above water, since stability is extremely
sensitive to this dimension. I've seen no evidence to suggest that
being lower in the boat adversely affects performance, & much to show
that it enhances it (& it reduces windage too).
With an existing boat it may very well be impossible to put the seat any
lower in the boat. So you may be stuck with your 10.5cm height but, if
that feels comfortable, stick with it. However, I can't see why you
should then want to lower your feet into the boat. It isn't the
distance between waterline & feet that matters to you, the sculler, but
the vertical distance between feet & seat. You might even find that
raising your feet works better - some outstanding scullers have had
their feet very high in the boat.
As for pitch - small variations in pin & gate pitch will not adversely
affect your performance except where they reduce your personal
confidence & ease of rowing. There is nothing sacred about the vertical
pin. A bit of outward lateral pitch (1 - 2 degrees) may be helpful both
for catches & finishes. Reducing your gate pitch to 4 or 3 degrees may
also work well for you, but it will probably make zilch difference to
the propulsive efficiency of your blades in the water.
Rowers thirst to be told "the right way" of rigging & rowing, but
because rowing must be adapted to very different capabilities &
physiques there simply cannot be one orthodoxy. It really astonishes me
that our collective thirst for "correct rigging" results in rowers of
all sizes & both genders all rowing with closely similar rigs & oar
dimensions. All of these measurements should be seen as guidance only.
Go to the sources & question the rationales given, to see if they
convince. Then play systematically with all settings (a lifetime's
task!) until you find your own preferred compromise.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
edgar cove
Barton <philip.b...@virgin.net> writes
If you are using a double action seat you should be able to lower
yourself in the boat by switching to a single action undercarriage and
planing some wood off the bearers under the seat, always provided that
your hips (or maybe I should say buttocks) are going to clear the
saxboards as you lower your self. When I switched from double to single
acting I was able to lower myself by about 1.5 cm
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
edgar cove
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> writes
>
>Some while ago I bought an old sculling boat which I've been doing up. It's
>a 1987 Ray Sims made of wood with a synthetic laminate on the inside. Having
>done it up, I've been learning about how to rig it and seem to be getting
>close to where I want it. I have found the whole process fascinating -
>really enjoyable to see how adjusting stretcher angle etc makes a big
>difference to length of stroke in the water!
>
>Currently the pins are vertical in both dimensions and I have 5 degrees
>stern pitch on the swivels, which are level with each other.
>
>Rather to my surprise it seems that I am rather small for the boat. I am 6
>foot (1.83 metres) and 92 kg (no comments please!). The evidence is that my
>rigging books suggest that I am too high in the boat. John MacArthur says
>the height
>of work should be 24-26cm for a sculler, but I am 27cm. Terry O'Neill says
>heels to waterline and waterline to lowest point of seat should both be in
>the range 7-9 cm. He says that these are the most important measures in
>fitting athlete to boat.
It seems to me that your height of work is about 10cm too high because
if you are measuring in the usual manner by checking the height of
swivel above the seat you should be in the range of 14-16 cm. I
normally set boats up for 15cm if he crew is about right for their boat
(sculling).
Check the tables in Steve Redgrave's book for confirmation of this.
Tim Granger
edgar cove <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <bvYc6.3577$cD2.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
>david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> writes
>>foot (1.83 metres) and 92 kg (no comments please!). The evidence is that my
>>rigging books suggest that I am too high in the boat. John MacArthur says
>>the height
>>of work should be 24-26cm for a sculler, but I am 27cm. Terry O'Neill says
>>heels to waterline and waterline to lowest point of seat should both be in
>>the range 7-9 cm. He says that these are the most important measures in
>>fitting athlete to boat.
>
>It seems to me that your height of work is about 10cm too high because
>if you are measuring in the usual manner by checking the height of
>swivel above the seat you should be in the range of 14-16 cm. I
>normally set boats up for 15cm if he crew is about right for their boat
The 24-26cm measurement is from the water to the bottom of the gate,
not from the seat.
Tim
Ewoud Dronkert
> Check the tables in Steve Redgrave's book for confirmation of this.
Also see http://www.studver.uu.nl/triton/afstelling.php3
Ewoud
Triton Utrecht
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
e> Check the tables in Steve Redgrave's book for confirmation of this.
Ouch another name that has written words about centimeters, is this an
anglosaxon mania or what ?
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
The FIRST line will be placed in front of the footline and can be
empty.http://www.studver.uu.nl/triton/rsr/ _*#RSR# Faces*_
http://www.interware.it/users/mike/rowing.html
http://www.triesterivista.it/
*************** _*#Webmaster# TrieSteRivista*_ ***************
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Atarian ST -TS! 2:333/608(FidoNet) bbsgate.interware.it
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
e> yourself in the boat by switching to a single action undercarriage and
He could also go naked, just to join another thread here 8^)
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
Un rimbambit e' l'ottava parte di un rimbambyte.
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
I was sure there was more literature about it 8^)
Can't you do without numbers ?
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
Ti sento, bellissima statua sommersa.... mi ami o nooooo ?
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
db> angle etc makes a big difference to length of stroke in the water!
Pay attention that you will have to insist flexing your ankles, expecially if
you do not do it on the erg (footstretcher too low ), so start with a
confortable angle, and with miles try to go more vertical.
db> Currently the pins are vertical in both dimensions and I have 5
db> degrees stern pitch on the swivels, which are level with each other.
You already know this is a starting point but not so good, a bit of lateral
pitch is needed, and 1-2 cm height difference.
db> Rather to my surprise it seems that I am rather small for the boat. I am
db> 6 foot (1.83 metres) and 92 kg (no comments please!). The evidence is
You do not want them, but just consider we are near be being 185cmx88Kg,
thought more Kgs could be better, if it is all trained muscle mass 8^)
db> that my rigging books suggest that I am too high in the boat. John
db> MacArthur says the height of work should be 24-26cm for a sculler, but I
db> am 27cm.
What height is this ? Anyway consider that you will always feel uncomfortable
going for a higher height, but it will pay off after a while, if you manage
to teach your body to pull that handle high unto your chest, with high body,
extended back and relaxed shoulders, then you will be much more efficient,
and effective, and less dependent about water roughness.
Then going lower (if needed) comes much easier.
db> Terry O'Neill says heels to waterline and waterline to lowest point of
Why do you have those strange names of people telling you about centimetres ?
This is not common in my country.
db> seat should both be in the range 7-9 cm. He says that these are the most
db> important measures in fitting athlete to boat. I am currently 6cm heels
db> to waterline (will drop my feet by 2cm or so to get within the range). I
db> am 10.5 waterline to seat, however, so am outside the range.
As you are higher with the seat you will also want your feet higher, arraging
with an high enough rigging. If the seat height causes balance problems, you
should really try to lower it, changing seat for example. Lowering rails may
be really hard, btw if the boat is for BIG people, let's go with balancing
skills or eat more and train less 8^)
db> I'm fairly sure that I am doing the measurements correctly.
You can never be sure about it, it's black magic after all.
db> I seem to have no way of getting the seat closer to the waterline. Nor
db> can I see a way of reducing the height of the work further (unless I put
db> wedges in, in which case I will presumably increase lateral pitch from 0
db> to perhaps 2 degrees). That is, unless I get even further away from my
db> ideal weight of perhaps 87 kg! Of course, if I do get slimmer then the
db> height issue might get worse!
You got it, maybe you need a lower boat, but if you learn and train with this
high setting, you will really gain benefits, even if unconfortable at the
beginning, so hold on and raise your feet a bit.
db> I like the boat (which is just as well given all the dosh and time I
db> spent on doing it up!). I do find it a bit difficult to sit, but have
db> always put that down to my incompetence as a sculler and in any event
db> it's not too bad.
db> Are there any comments? Are there any standard tricks for reducing my
db> height in the boat? Loads of you seem to have a lot more experience than
db> me on this!
Again, if you learn to go high, you will go better with any condition and any
boat.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
The FIRST line will be placed in front of the footline and can be
empty.http://www.studver.uu.nl/triton/rsr/ _*#RSR# Faces*_
david.ballard
Mike De.Petris <mi...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it> wrote
in message news:21265...@bbsgate.interware.R.E.M.O.V.E.T.O.R.E.P.L.Y.it...
> In uno strano messaggio del 28 Jan 01 ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk
> (2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
> e> If you are using a double action seat you should be able to lower
> e> yourself in the boat by switching to a single action undercarriage and
>
> He could also go naked, just to join another thread here 8^)
>
What a gruesome thought! And what if something got caught in the slide
(oops, sorry, forgot for a moment that I am not one of your Italian
lycra-stretching Gods!)
;-)
David
david.ballard
action seat to see whether my love handles will still squeeze between the
bulkheads if I lower the seat. I had no idea that single action seats were
lower, so many thanks.
I'll leave the stretcher where it is for the time being, taking the various
points that have been made. I could do with a bit more reach forward but
will look to flatten the rake of the stretcher first (I'm about to get the
device that will allow me to alter that).
I'm going to leave the height of the work where it is. Indeed I will
probably get a 1 or 1.5 degree wedge for some lateral pitch and then raise
the swivels to get them back to the same height. I am taller in the body
than the legs so take Carl's point on that.
Mike - I was told very firmly that in the UK we use level swivels. I had
been doing what you say but changed recently to fit in with others. To my
surprise I didn't find it made much difference either way.
I agree totally with Carl about the need to optimise rigging for myself -
it's just that I'm very new at the game. As you say - it's a lifetime's
work - and I'm finding the early courses very stimulating!
What amazes me is that I got through a reasonably successful rowing career
without even learning the basics of this stuff. It's only when I'm too old
to care about speed and - by taking up sculling - have nowhere to hide -
that it begins to make sense. But even some of our fellow club members who
had previous and (in one case) reasonably successful sculling careers don't
know any of this stuff. Why do we not teach it alongside the rowing stroke?
Again, thanks to all.
David
Ewoud Dronkert
> d> Also see http://www.studver.uu.nl/triton/afstelling.php3
>
> I was sure there was more literature about it 8^)
> Can't you do without numbers ?
Maybe, but for starters, all His tables are on this page.
Ewoud
Triton Utrecht
Gareth Wynn
cox saw me do it, corrected the mistake and told me any easy way to
remember. "the gap goes at the back. this prevents things getting tangled
up if you ever go naked rowing." Strangely the cox was a girl.
G
"david.ballard" <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:kamd6.6884$cD2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Katy Cameron
KT
Jeremy Fagan
"Ewoud Dronkert" <dron...@varsity.notthis.nl> wrote in message news:954vs6>
> Maybe, but for starters, all His tables are on this page.
Has 'He' now been elevated through knighthood to divinity??? :)
Jeremy
Gareth Wynn
:0)
G
"Jeremy Fagan" <fag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9567m1$dhm$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
Ewoud Dronkert
> "Ewoud Dronkert" <dron...@varsity.notthis.nl> wrote:
> > Maybe, but for starters, all His tables are on this page.
>
> Has 'He' now been elevated through knighthood to divinity??? :)
Well yes. And we should all worship His writings.
;) Ed
edgar cove
david.ballard <david....@ntlworld.com> writes
>What amazes me is that I got through a reasonably successful rowing career
>without even learning the basics of this stuff. It's only when I'm too old
>to care about speed and - by taking up sculling - have nowhere to hide -
>that it begins to make sense. But even some of our fellow club members who
>had previous and (in one case) reasonably successful sculling careers don't
>know any of this stuff. Why do we not teach it alongside the rowing stroke?
Well, you can do what you want with your own boat but if everybody in
the club became an 'expert' on rigging one would never know from one
week to another what had been done to undo the painstaking work one had
put in setting up club boats for the average rower. :-)
david.ballard
things like the height of the work, stretcher position, etc. I don't know
who it was that was rigging our boats. If it was you, I'm very grateful (and
sorry about the uneven heights!)
David
edgar cove <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:JiINlBAO...@coves.demon.co.uk...