Welsh rowing

[Chris A]

Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.

I cannot see what effect this will have.

a) an English crews which wins a 2 or 3 boat event at a Welsh event will win points anyway under rule 5-2-5c and their BROE administrators will have to ensure that they are applied.

b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

[Brian Chapman]

Chris,

To put it in perspective, how many regattas does this involve? I am not aware of any in N Wales.

Is it just the affiliated regattas, Monmouth and Llandaff?

Brian

[Phil]

Mumbles / Cardiff Bay / Swansea / Penarth etc., (if they are still
going)

[davie...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 14, 2013 10:38:19 PM UTC+1, Chris A wrote:

> Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.
>

> b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

Is that what 5-2-3g actually says? I read it as just putting the crew into the most suitable event. A Welsh point being worth more than and English point is no different from how eg US or Aussie wins are valued over here.

[Richard du P]

A wind-up, surely?

or has Wales broken away from "British" Rowing?

Any son of the principality looking for points, say to hit a crew point minimum for some Championship Course Head Race, would presumably have to get his BR points tally adjusted, by negotiation with Lower Mall??? ..... or is he now a non-BR competitor?

No, must be a wind-up, I hope

Richard du P

[Richard]

I fear not, although I haven't seen a copy of the Welsh Rules of Racing, so I have only seen this new rule advertised in an email for one of the Welsh regattas. It would be useful if Welsh rules were published on their website (or if they are there, they need to be easier to find - they have eluded my search efforts).

Presumably crews (Welsh and non-Welsh alike) racing in Welsh regattas will now have to maintain two points counts - one for use in Wales and one for use in BR events elsewhere. What happens to the points tally for Welsh crews winning in BR regattas outside Wales (or regattas abroad)?

To borrow a phrase from an umpiring colleague "what is the problem to which this is the solution?". It seems to me to have introduced a heap of complications for unclear (and possibly non-existent) benefits.

[davie...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:26:03 AM UTC+1, Richard wrote:
> To borrow a phrase from an umpiring colleague "what is the problem to which this is the solution?". It seems to me to have introduced a heap of complications for unclear (and possibly non-existent) benefits.

The small number of events and clubs means that points acquisition is disproportionally easy?

[JK]

The small number of events and clubs means that points acquisition is disproportionally easy?

Correct... and ducking for cover, Welsh rowing is a micro-environment that demonstrates the plight of the "club" rower in the UK as a whole. There are a multitude of rowers (and now "missing" rowers) who want to support local events and still win but are not that interested in racing Dorney/large regattas... so you get a "club" four that is locally rather good, goes to several small regattas and get several wins each time in straight finals... so the point system works in that they are promoted out of the way for those who kept being beaten by them.... but they have outgrown the pool, no-one else is at their level locally so they can't get any races at the races they want to do... so begrudingly go to a large regatta to get some different competition normally involving extensive travel etc.... they meet ABC University who haven't raced much as their coach wants to win the Novice Pennant at HORR but have been extensively coached and as students having nothing better to do so each have a 6:30 erg and are in the regatta to hone their starts for BUCS (insert other non-point bearing event or major event with little chance of winning)... little local crew gets beaten soundly... "helpful" comments about training harder/longer/more often ensue.....repeat several times and rowing is no longer FUN for them and they leave the sport as all they actually wanted to do was race a few regattas each summer against similar crews, win some, lose some, have a beer afterwards and a life in between!... they have been in the sport a relatively short time and have little voice to correct the situation... but this type of club rower used to be the backbone of most club's revenue (and BR memberships) and after several years probably would sit on the club committee... I can't see that much is being done to save this section, the "grassroots", of rowing, the equivalent of the Sunday kickabout in football and not all such rowers will qualify to discover the delights of Masters rowing (although hard to find oppo at most events). It's not sexy, it's not likely to grow the next Olympian etc, but it did provide those that ran the local event/local club in future.... good on the Welsh for trying something (and yes I am biased)!

[John Griffiths]

The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

[Richard du P]

On Monday, 29 April 2013 06:26:23 UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

John, thank you for that clarification, and I apologise for my previous ungracious surprise. These are to be non-qualifying events, fair and square, and there will be no question of any winner, from either side of Offa's Dyke, trying to convince the entries sec of an English competition [a particular interest of mine] that he or she should be regarded as having another point.

Richard du P

[Chris A]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 6:26:23 AM UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear

"A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British
or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under
British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their
own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the
British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included
electronically against the competitor’s total."

It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh's rowing reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.

[Peter Ford]

Are there definitions of "self-contained body" in 4-1-2 or of "association" in 5-2-5c? If not, why are eg CRA races exempt?

While we're on the subject, I discover the existence of 5-2-5b and admit that I failed to notify the NCC of my intention to race a double scull around Hamilton harbour in Bermuda...

Peter

[John Griffiths]

On Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:36:23 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:

Indeed so which is why English crews do not have to pick up points under the special conditions.

[Richard du P]

On Saturday, 11 May 2013 12:01:59 UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:36:23 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:
> > On Monday, April 29, 2013 6:26:23 AM UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> > > The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.
>

[CA] > > English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear

> > "A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British
> > or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under
> > British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their
> > own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the
> > British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included
> > electronically against the competitor’s total."

> > It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh rowing's reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.
>
[JG] > Indeed so which is why English crews do not have to pick up points under the special conditions.

OK John, I'll bite .....

A] English club crew wins 3-boat event in England; event not non-qualifying under "British" rules - each member of the crew picks up a point?

B] Same crew wins apparently analogous event in Belgium; event would not have been non-qualifying under "British" rules - each member of the crew should have another point, on report to Lower Mall?

C] Same crew wins apparently analogous event at a Welsh competition - should this triumph not likewise be reported to Lower Mall for points?

Discuss.

Richard du P

[John Griffiths]

A] If there are special conditions accepted by the National Competition Committee which make the event non-qualifying, then nobody picks up any points

B] Correct

C] Same as A]

Cheers,

John

[John Griffiths]

Further to A and C, if there are no special conditions, then the event is qualifying and Welsh and English crews pick up points alike.

[Richard du P]

John, thanks - not the first time the NCC has surprised me, probably won't be the last, they've every right.

I've happy memories of racing in Wales in the very early 1970s, in British club crews which saw the races as comparable in a good way with British races; is it possible to say very briefly, what special conditions the NCC now recognises, which effectively reduce the significance of wins in Wales?

Richard du P

[John Griffiths]

I couldn't possibly comment about your state of surprise at "the NCC" - but therein lies the confusion east of the dyke.

Wales has their equivalent of National Competition Committee and given that the British Rowing Rules of Racing are non-specific regarding the "National" Competition Committee, at Welsh events clearly it is the Welsh equivalent that has jurisdiction.

As far as knowing what special conditions apply, the Rules of Racing are also clear that each regatta must publish these conditions with the notice of the Regatta. Monmouth dutifully complied with this which is why this discussion arose.

I would point out that Wales are trying to address the points issue by the regattas trying to reduce the number of 2 or 3 boat events through merging some of the categories. Elimination of J17 and reducing the number of Intermediate categories would certainly help (although this is not officially the case yet). If removing the risk of picking up cheap points attracts more entries, then perversely the problem disappears!

But given that there are only 2 significant events in Wales (and apologies to any other Welsh regattas I have arrogantly overlooked), the actual numbers of athletes affected by this will hopefully be very small.

I'm sure Monmouth Regatta would love to see you back on the picturesque River Wye. With straight 1500m side by side racing, they have a wonderful venue and their events are renowned for their timely and efficient running. The Dusk Dash after racing on the Saturday night is also quite a spectacle to watch. (Entries close 18:00hrs Sunday 19th May 2013 - advert over)

[Richard du P]

Ahhhh!

I'm known to be a huge fan of the British National Competition Committee - present composition listed on p259 of my 2013 BRA - but I'd regrettably not noticed that the next-door Nation has its own! [Nor can these elderly eyes find any reference in pp189-197 op cit]

I do see that Monmouth Regatta's special conditions hang on less [?fewer?] than four racing. As you say, we should hope this doesn't happen. It does happen at many British regattas I know, but which follow the British points system.

I'm surprised that this has been ruled to be a "special condition" within the sense of the British Rowing rule. Perhaps this indicates that Wales and Britain are nations drifting apart. I'm involved with Fullers HoR IVs, which already sees the status of foreign clubs as an intractable problem, and insists that they enter Elite events only.

Perhaps we shall come to see Welsh clubs as likewise foreign.

Richard du P

[Carl]

Mmmm - rule 5-2-3g, egad!

Am I the only one (I hope I'm not) whose mind boggles, nay swoons, at
the 4-tiered complexity of the rules considered necessary to regulate an
activity so evidently simple (since it is for simple folk like us) as
rowing a couple of shells down a river side by side?

I'd have thought that, once it requires an obsessive-compulsive to
negotiate the nooks & crannies of racing rules, those rules are fit only
for the bin. Or is rowing now incidental, a mere sideshow, to the
higher art of playing the rules?

In rowing, of all sports, haven't we long-since learned that life ain't
fair? After all, how many other sports oblige us to race on costly
multi-lane course on which the disadvantage between lanes can be so
great as to ensure that a bad draw eliminates us, & in which the
supposedly fastest are then seeded into the apparently fastest lanes.
When such a huge bias is accepted without demur (since it is an article
of twisted faith that we like to believe that multilane courses are
"fair"), isn't it an astronomical departure from from reality to concoct
ever more finicky layers upon layers of rules in the alleged pursuit of
fairness?

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
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[Richard]

I'll bite :-) Why not; it's been a while.

If you have a magic answer rather than rhetorical questions then please share. The sport will be eternally grateful. Well some of us will be.

You won't find too many BR members (of whichever constituent nation or principality) who would disagree that the competition structure isn't serving the sport as well as it could or that the rule book is over-complicated [1]. Grumbling about these things is dead easy (just sit in any club bar for 10 minutes!). Making a constructive contribution to fixing these problems is a lot harder, although many of us try.

Still, if you want a *really* complicated rule book, try sailing; theirs makes ours look like a mere pamphlet.

[1] My current favourite daft rule is 4-1-9 which covers the combination of Masters and Senior categories. Depending on how the event is described, it may or may not be "qualifying", e.g. "IM2 MasC" might be (if enough crews race), "MasC IM2" isn't even though *exactly* the same crews are eligible. So a small typo on the regatta poster might bring points where athletes weren't expecting any. What purpose does this distinction serve? Why would athletes opt to race for points, when they don't have to? Shrug.

[Alistair]

The whole 'points' thing is idiotic.

Just run the event and give prizes to the winners. And if you need a
'novice' even, great, put one in. If you're not really novice and you
enter, well you're an idiot.

Let crews judge whether they're intermediates or novices or whatever.
Rowers have a strange obsession with thinking they're entitled to have a
pretty good chance at winning silverware whatever their proficiency.

I would honestly rather row with an average crew and get thoroughly
beaten by a good one than sign up for something restricted to a certain
number of points and 'win'. I would feel ashamed to display my medal in
front of those who signed up for the harder event and didn't win. I
genuinely don't understand the mentality of people who obsess about
these things.

And if the justification is that you don't get knocked out in round one
and your day's finished, well do some b finals too. Or run a "fastest to
the buoy and back again" for anyone not still in the competition.

There are enough natural demarcations and combinations of men, women,
mixed crews, schools, universities, colleges, clubs, juniors,
first-timers, U16s, U23s, masters A,B,C,D,E,F,G, 1x, 2x, 4x, 2-, 4-, 4+,
8+, 8x, and people actually missing body parts etc etc.

Pointless.

AJP

[coach]

I have a suggestion for a system that might go some way to solving some of these problems.

With the on line system now well and truly established, we need not be tied to a points system that has to fit onto a racing licence card.

As I see it, the current system does not allow for any grading of regattas and what I propose is a halfway house between the current rules, where every race counts, and those that occurred when I started out in the sport. Back then, any event of less than 1000m was designated as not qualifying.

Any regatta win at an event such as those at Nottingham or Dorney etc. should carry permanent points that you cannot get rid of at the end of a season.

Wins at sprint events and other off season regattas (Aug Sept) should carry points that apply to that season only, with the exception of ones first win. This is a system not unlike that which applies to junior events. (3-3-2-g)

[ct]

Definitely a fan of the idea that there's one event per boat type, then you split into "A","B" finals etc, that way the "elite" crews end up in draws bigger than 4 crews (i assume this is what they want), and you're much more likely to end up racing in a final against people of roughly the same level. A great incentive to competition on all levels surely?

Can also see no reason why under this system more "local" events could once again become prominent fixtures in the season (something that apparently was the case way before i started rowing!).

Not saying this would be easier to organize mind...

[davie...@gmail.com]

This fits in (more or less) with the system used at the Diamond Jubilee regatta, where time trials sorted out the crews into groups of roughly equal standard, then race-offs to find the winner of each group.

I've mentioned this before, but this is roughly how rugby 7s competitions are organised. Pool play decides whether you go into Cup, Bowl or Plate, and teams play off for each prize. Result = some good close games and lower standard competitors still have a chance of some reward for beating their peers.

No need for points at all.

Kit

[JK]

Not sure that a small event can cope with time trials due to doubling up, boat sharing, logistical issues etc.

Rowing is not that comparable to other team sports as slight changes to a crew composition can make dramatic differences and crews rarely stay the same for a whole "season".

So individual points probably still needed...

The permanent/non-permanent points idea sounds good. Possible format could be:
- win any event with more than 8 entrants... gain a permanent point
- win an event with less than 8 entrants... gain a non-permanent point
- win any event... lose "novices"
- win more than 4 non-permanent points in one season... gain a permanent point
- rationalise the status/points levels down to novice/club/intermediate/elite based upon total points (ie permanent plus non-permanent)
- leave Masters in age bands as present
- regression of permanent points only if no events of any type won in the year

If seperate the racing licence into a rowing card and a sculling card, the hole-punchers/hole-collectors of this world could also be kept happy... permanent points on one side of the card, non-permanent on the other...

[Chris A]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:42:25 PM UTC+1, JK wrote:
> Not sure that a small event can cope with time trials due to doubling up, boat sharing, logistical issues etc.
>

Llandaff regatta operating under British Rowing rules I notice

[Richard du P]

On Thursday, 16 May 2013 19:19:51 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:

>
> Llandaff regatta operating under British Rowing rules I notice

Long laboured post about the movie "Passport to Pimlico", then I got thrown off the page, probably for the best .....

Richard du P

[Richard]

On Thursday, 16 May 2013 19:19:51 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:

I guess they have to. There are references here and there (e.g. in a document recently published on the Welsh Rowing website - http://bit.ly/108qAs2) to Welsh Rowing Rules of Racing, but I still haven't managed to track down a copy. So, does Welsh Rowing have its own set of Rules of Racing or not? My confusion deepens.

[coach]

British Rowing head office have now stepped into the fray with a reminder on their web site about wins at non BR regattas

[Richard du P]

Thanks for the heads-up. Looking at that reminder, it reads to me like a faithful restatement of a BR Rule.

I'm not sure that - in itself - this reminder addresses the question, whether anyone can set himself up a "National Competition Committee" which decides that certain events are non-qualifying, both for local and for English crews
..... which is what the Principality sounds to me like it is doing?

Richard du P

[Peter Ford]

Can anyone explain why these difficulties are not held to apply to events organised by the CRA, the CUCBC (two Cambridge based organisations which run non-BR events) or the various colleges and town clubs? I've tried reading rules 1-1-4, 4-1-2, 5-2-5c a few times and I have little idea of what those who drafted the rules intended them to mean. 3-2-1a and 4-1-2 even appear to contain a circular definition just to add to the obfuscation.
Thanks,
Peter

[Richard du P]

I've assumed - perhaps wrongly - that CRA events are restricted to CRA members?
If the CRA is held to be a "self-contained body", that might do? At one time, I knew of at least two events restricted to local ARA divisions, which didn't report for status, but that was some time ago, and I'd understood the Rules to have become less accommodating???

None of that will be relevant to Welsh events which encourage English clubs to compete? If they were closed to Welsh clubs, that might be more like Cambs?

I think I agree about the circular definition; perhaps we should bear in mind that these Rules are drafted by committee?

Richard du P

[Peter Ford]

College clubs are excluded from membership of the CRA, and a number of their events have a large college entry. There are only head races organised directly by the CRA, but there are a few regattas organised by clubs in Cambridge which generally offer "CRA events", in which the competitors aren't required to be BR members, and no points are awarded. In the results of the most recent Autumn regatta at http://www.rowstats.com/regatta.php?id=156&f=1&b=1
races 81, 135 and 143 (and various others involving Star) include non-CRA clubs in "CRA" events.

Then there are races (including regattas, using some rather special local rules) organised by CUCBC, restricted to college crews; and various events organised by college clubs, generally restricted to college crews and their alumni clubs.

If I were required to report these wins as 'qualifying wins under another association', I would have reached 12 points a number of years ago while rowing at the level of a college 2nd VIII, which would be a little unfortunate...

Peter

[Richard du P]

My little brain is hurting.

I think I understand the idea of a "[local] event", limited to a defined group [and thus not "open" as I understand the word] which carries no points for winners.

What I don't find so easy, is the idea of such a restricted event being open to a club which is not a member of that group ..... which can none the less win a trophy without any point.

If I've correctly understood Peter's statement, I note that I've no responsibility in the administration of competitive rowing, and I count my blessings.

Richard du P

[ng...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31:41 PM UTC+2, Richard du P wrote:
> My little brain is hurting.
>
>
>
> I think I understand the idea of a "[local] event", limited to a defined group [and thus not "open" as I understand the word] which carries no points for winners.
>
>
>
> What I don't find so easy, is the idea of such a restricted event being open to a club which is not a member of that group ..... which can none the less win a trophy without any point.
>

Do you know, the same thing occurred to me as I read it, and I've been rowing in and around Cambridge for a little over 30 years now without ever thinking about the regulatory infrastructure. I wonder how it works?
Wasn't there a rule a while back about being able to have a non-qualifying 'invitation' event if entries came from your own or neighbouring regions? I seem to remember Bedford SBH using something like that during the ARA's brief attempt at making head races qualifying, around the early 90s.

[Chris A]

Very glad to see that BR HQ has taken the lead on this and manually added the points to the English winners of the 2 and 3 boat events at Monmouth. Of course, English regattas will now have to closely scrutinize the entries of the Welsh winners to ensure that they are entering the appropriate event.

[John Griffiths]

On Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:08:46 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:
> Very glad to see that BR HQ has taken the lead on this and manually added the points to the English winners of the 2 and 3 boat events at Monmouth. Of course, English regattas will now have to closely scrutinize the entries of the Welsh winners to ensure that they are entering the appropriate event.

On the contrary, they have accepted they have acted illegally and removed the points they added.

[Richard du P]

Chris, John, are we inching towards a clear statement of what is - no, I won't say "legal" - allowed under the relevant governing rules?

IF Welsh Rowing is part of British Rowing (and an authoritative unambiguous answer to that would be a good start) then I've real doubt whether the County of Cambridge, the Principality of Wales, or the Civil Service Rowing Association can rightly designate certain events as non-qualifying whoever enters them and whoever wins them.

If Welsh Rowing is external to BR, then it gets easier. One competition I know quite well, will I predict designate Welsh clubs as foreign, and restrict them to Elite entries only
..... and Lower Mall will surely put these points, won abroad, back on?

Perhaps an enquiry is necessary of the BR National Competition Committee. Those who know my history, will correctly expect that I leave that correspondence to someone else!

Richard du P

[John Griffiths]

I have to say I am somewhat exasperated that there is any difficulty in grasping the concept of Wales as a Nation in sporting terms given that we have a National Assembly, have been partaking in the 4/5/6 Nations Rugby for one or 2 years, Home International Regattas for about 50 years and indeed in British Rowing's own Whole Sport plan it states on page 7, section 4.1:

"The Home Country National Associations, Scottish Rowing (SR) and the Welsh Amateur Rowing Association (WARA) [sic] are responsible for the governance of rowing in Scotland and Wales respectively."

Given that clear statement from British Rowing, the validity of a Welsh National Competition Committee is unquestionable.

I'm not entirely sure the same could be said for the Civil Service Rowing Association.

[Richard]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this "local rule", it would help Welsh Rowing's case if the Welsh Rules of Racing and the composition and terms of reference of the Welsh National Competition Committee were published somewhere, and it would be interesting to see the minutes of the Welsh NCC meeting at which this new rule was proposed, discussed and agreed. I can find no trace of any of this on the Welsh Rowing website, which does give the unfortunate impression that this issue hasn't been properly thought out.

Are any other Welsh events planning to implement this new rule? I had heard that Llandaff Regatta will be using bog-standard BR rules.

[Chris A]

There are surely no issues with Welsh Rowing having its own rules. The Scots do. If they do then it would be best if the withdraw from BROE and the registration system and set up their own.

The issue is surely that a body that none of us had ever heard of (the Welsh National Competition committee), and which is nowhere mentioned on the WR Boards and Officers page, or in the structure plan, is telling British Rowing what its own rules are.

[John Griffiths]

I wonder what the 'B' in BROE stands for?

[John Griffiths]

On Thursday, 6 June 2013 17:42:41 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:

I accept that the communication from Wales has not been ideal - the transition of the Welsh Rowing website has left something to be desired. But throughout all of this discussion, the fact that the definition of "National" in all of the British Rowing rules and documents is unclear is the root cause of this situation. By it's very name British Rowing encompasses England, Scotland and Wales - 3 of the Home Nations. There is some mention of Wales and Scotland in the rules of racing but there is not a single reference to England and there is only one reference to English - perversely regarding the language of FISA rules! However, there are many references to National.

Given that the Amateur Rowing Association decided to call itself British Rowing some years ago now, one would have thought they could manage to sort this out by now.

[Chris A]

Well BROE cannot cope with two sets of rules.

[John Griffiths]

Big sigh.

It doesn't need to. No BR rules have been changed or contravened.

[Richard du P]

>
> > The issue is surely that a body that none of us had ever heard of (the Welsh National Competition committee), and which is nowhere mentioned on the WR Boards and Officers page, or in the structure plan, is telling British Rowing what its own rules are.
>
> I accept that the communication from Wales has not been ideal - the transition of the Welsh Rowing website has left something to be desired. But throughout all of this discussion, the fact that the definition of "National" in all of the British Rowing rules and documents is unclear is the root cause of this situation. By it's very name British Rowing encompasses England, Scotland and Wales - 3 of the Home Nations. There is some mention of Wales and Scotland in the rules of racing but there is not a single reference to England and there is only one reference to English - perversely regarding the language of FISA rules! However, there are many references to National.
>
> Given that the Amateur Rowing Association decided to call itself British Rowing some years ago now, one would have thought they could manage to sort this out by now.

I'm sure the Rules of Racing Sub-Committees, of the many respective nations involved, have their heads together on these very questions, even as we correspond, and will give us their agreed judgement soon.

I live in a beautiful world.

Richard du P

[Richard]

My confusion continues to deepen.

This is either a "local rule" under the BR Rules of Racing, in which case BR approval is required, or it's a Welsh Rule, in which case please will someone publish the Welsh Rules of Racing. You can't have it both ways.

[John Griffiths]

Neither. It is one of the existing cases for non-qualifying events defined in British rule 4-1-2. Special conditions permitted by the National Competition Committee.

Please provide a (existing, documented?) definition of "National" for the "British" Rowing Rules of Racing.

[Richard du P]

On Monday, 10 June 2013 11:18:46 UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:

> Neither. It is one of the existing cases for non-qualifying events defined in British rule 4-1-2. Special conditions permitted by the National Competition Committee.
>
> Please provide a (existing, documented?) definition of "National" for the "British" Rowing Rules of Racing.

Can't help with "National"! I think the problem is that everyone thought [s]he knew what "National" meant when we thought the ARA was the governing body of the sport in England and Wales, forgetting your powerful point that the Principality sees itself as a Nation, certainly when it has a prolate ball in its hand.
When the ARA decided [on pecuniary consideration?] to rebrand itself as "British", no doubt it set up a working group to consider what concomitant changes will be necessary to its rules. I hope that group may report sometime soon.

The Welsh NCC's "special condition" appears to some of us to be .....
"When a group decides that it prefers the old ARA rule on numbers of starters, to the present BR rule."
In the spectrum of sympathy for what it has done, I seem not to be at the understanding end.

British Rowing MIGHT want to make efforts to resolve this issue, but my breath for one, is not held. Alternatively it might decide that the circumstances of Welsh rowing are now so different from those in England, that Wales should now be seen as a foreign country. As I've said above, I've a feeling that one substantial English event, might decide precisely that.

Richard du P

[JK]

My limited understanding/recollection is that Welsh rowing clubs needed to establish WARA in 1985 so as to match changes in funding which meant that grants only went to organisations with a Welsh governing body..

Anyway, pragmatically.... how many rowers did the rules at Monmouth actually affect? Most events seemed to have more than 3 entries unless Masters or the more esoteric junior categories.... so I'm guessing not many as I don't have my programme to hand... how many other events within 50 miles suffered reduction in entries due to the chance to race without gaining points?... probably none, the further travelling clubs are normally there due to some connection with Monmouth, reciprocal visit etc....

The Welsh have always provided a good distraction to waste away English time avoiding other issues or a few useful battles to hone skills to use against the French as shown by Henry V (but then the archers that won the day at Crecy and Agincourt were mainly Welsh)...


If the energy spent discussing the above had been directed to solving the whole culture of "avoiding points" or the manipulation of points by School/University/Club coaches or the fact that many experienced & talented oarspeople still beinng Nov/IM3 because they only race Met/Marlow etc. with a goal of reaching finals to pre-qualify for HRR but never gain points then who knows what might have been achieved rather than attempting to quell the latest Rebecca riot ;0)

...circa '85.... "I've got 6 points in one season"... response "wow, well done, you must be good"

...circa '07.... "I've got 6 points in one season"... response "bloody fool, go away regress a few and come back when you're more useful" or "must have been cheap points"

[Chris A]

>
>
> Please provide a (existing, documented?) definition of "National" for the "British" Rowing Rules of Racing.

It's quite straightforward

1. The rules are British Rowing's (1-1-1 These rules are established by British Rowing...), therefore the body referred to in them as "National Competition Committee" is that which exists in Appendix (iii) of the rules of British Rowing.
2. The rules were accepted wholesale by the WARA (as was).
3. This assumption of the rules does not change the definition of NCC in 1 above, nor does it allow any body accepting these rules to redefine what it wants.
4. The NCC has not given permission for these events to be non-qualifying.
5. All the English winners have had points added or their JB status removed.

[johnf...@gmail.com]

Does it strike anybody else that legal training would be useful for anyone wishing to race in the UK?

[John Griffiths]

Item 1, the words:

"therefore the body referred to in them as "National Competition Committee" is that which exists in Appendix (iii) of the rules of British Rowing."

do not exist in the rules of racing and so are simply one interpretation.

Start off with an invalid assumption and you can prove anything.

[coach]

As I understand it, this whole problem has been generated because our colleagues on the other side of Offa's Dyke feel that, due to the smallness of their talent pool, wins and thus points are too easy to come by.

There is a solution and example that is properly documented and set out on the other side of the Bristol Channel. (http://www.weara.co.uk/articles-association-and-rules)

I would suggest that the Welsh look at this document, and draw up one of their own, with clearly defined rules as to how their internal points system should relate to those of British Rowing.

As has been commented elsewhere, a root and branch restructuring of the points/status system is required. For my part I would like to see the return of non qualifying events or a system of grading events.

[Richard]

But at least the British Rowing Rules of Racing ARE published and freely available (unlike the apparently mythical Welsh ones) and the "National Competition Committee" is clearly defined (also unlike the apparently mythical Welsh equivalent - which I had never heard of until AFTER the proposal to introduce this new rule).

So given the absence of any published Welsh Rules of Racing, or a defined Welsh National Competition Committee or any evidence that such decision-making under Rule 4-1-2 (modifying the *BRITISH* Rowing Rules of Racing) has been delegated by the (entirely unambiguous) NCC to the Welsh NCC (if it exists), I don't believe you have a leg to stand on. Happy to be corrected - all it will take is a copy of the Welsh Rules of Racing and the minutes of the relevant Welsh NCC meeting. I've asked nicely three times; still no joy. Such important documents ought to be readily available and I am sure would clarify this issue once and for all. If you can't (or won't) publish, it would be interesting to know why.

If Welsh Rowing want to go and do their own thing (like Scottish Rowing) in the interest of developing the sport in Wales, and have the support of their clubs and events to do so, then crack on, go for it, good luck. But do it properly. In the meanwhile, I fear all it's going to do is to make life awkward for Welsh crews competing in English events and for entries secs of those events.

BTW (and don't tell anyone for goodness' sake) - British Rowing Rules of Racing do not explicitly define "rowing" [FISA rules do]; there is no definition of "rowing" or "sculling". Is it therefore an invalid assumption that we may only use oars / sculls to move our boats?

[Chris A]

And I forgot to say

6. Welsh winners at Monmouth (and there were quite a few, Monmouth in Nov8+ for example) will now be under-pointed according to BROE when racing in England. I have asked entry secretaries round here to scrutinize Welsh entries to check that they are in the right event according to their racing history

[Chris A]

I have provided an existing, documented definition of the NCC. It is set out in black and white in British Rowing's rules. It is not "one" interpretation, it is the only interpretation.

[hwa...@googlemail.com]

I'm following this argument from afar, and trying to make my own mind up as to the rights and wrongs. It doesn't help that I think the current points/qualifying rules are from ideal. Even some of the rules differ from what I believe was the intended spirit.

However, I post here to raise a question. Much of the argument currently stands around the definition of the NCC and its authority. I have been to BR website and downloaded the racing rules for 2013 (and 2012 and what is supposed to be 2011 - but is actually the same link as 2012). These documents do not seem to define an NNC or National Competitions committee, and further do not have any references to an Appendix (iii). Indeed the only appendices are referred to as A & B, not as numbers.

So my question is which copy of the BR racing rules is being quoted? (Not wanting to put water on the fire, just trying to understand the important points of the argument).

[JK]

I would disagree that there is only one interpretation when there is clear contradiction in that British Rowing's own objects state below. I was surprised to see "England" as I thought the change to "British Rowing" had actually given jurisdiction over whole of UK.

OBJECTS

3 The objects for which British Rowing is established are: -
(a) To act as the governing body for the sport of rowing. British Rowing is responsible for
the training and selection of individual rowers and crews representing Great Britain,
and for participation in and the development of rowing in England. Rowing in Scotland
and Wales is governed and organised nationally by Scottish Rowing and Welsh
Rowing respectively.


I'm still interested to hear how many rowers/events are actually affected? I expect a lot of spleen being vented over very little where they are far bigger issues to deal with as alluded to before.

Funny how many sports derived from "gentlemanly pursuits" have ended up with complex rules to shut down little "wheezes" created to give an ungentlemanly advantage...

Funny how the laws derived from the Acts of Union, 1922 treaty with Ireland, surpression of the Celts leading to the absorption of the Principality of Wales etc. do not seem to apply to the sporting arena e.g. football played as contingent nations/principalities... and TeamUKGB&NI not very snappy is it!! Anyone for "6 nations plus the Channel Islands"... lawyers shoot me down but theoretically an Irish citizen resident in London is eligible to compete for TeamGB (as is a UK citizen resident in Dublin for TeamIreland)as under the Anglo-Irish treaty they are not allowed to be treated as alien?...

[davie...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:21:14 PM UTC+1, JK wrote:
> I would disagree that there is only one interpretation when there is clear contradiction in that British Rowing's own objects state below. I was surprised to see "England" as I thought the change to "British Rowing" had actually given jurisdiction over whole of UK.
>
>
>
> OBJECTS
>
>
>
> 3 The objects for which British Rowing is established are: -
>
> (a) To act as the governing body for the sport of rowing. British Rowing is responsible for
>
> the training and selection of individual rowers and crews representing Great Britain,
>
> and for participation in and the development of rowing in England. Rowing in Scotland
>
> and Wales is governed and organised nationally by Scottish Rowing and Welsh
>
> Rowing respectively.
>
>

Objects are stated here:
http://www.britishrowing.org/about-us/what-we-do

And here's a pretty coloured map on BR's website of its regional makeup.

http://www.britishrowing.org/clubs/regions

Celts noticeable by their absence?

Kit
(half-Welsh)

[coach]

Where does WEARA (West of England Amateur Rowing Association) sit within this structure. It has its own points system, its own rules of racing etc. However whilst it sets out how wins at its regattas should translate into BR rowing points for athletes from its member clubs, it does not appear to define how these wins would affect oarsmen form outside the region.

[Chris A]

>
>
>
> I'm following this argument from afar, and trying to make my own mind up as to the rights and wrongs. It doesn't help that I think the current points/qualifying rules are from ideal. Even some of the rules differ from what I believe was the intended spirit.
>
>
>
> However, I post here to raise a question. Much of the argument currently stands around the definition of the NCC and its authority. I have been to BR website and downloaded the racing rules for 2013 (and 2012 and what is supposed to be 2011 - but is actually the same link as 2012). These documents do not seem to define an NNC or National Competitions committee, and further do not have any references to an Appendix (iii). Indeed the only appendices are referred to as A & B, not as numbers.
>
>
>
> So my question is which copy of the BR racing rules is being quoted? (Not wanting to put water on the fire, just trying to understand the important points of the argument).

The NCC is quite clearly defined in British Rowing's rules, which are distinct from British Rowing's Rules of Racing. They define all sorts of things like the composition of the standing committees (like the NCC), duties and powers of the Executive Board, subscription, equity, penalty, boat ID, anti-doping etc. If you have an 2013 Almanack it's on page 281 et seq. These don't seem to be online.

[Chris A]

>
>
> Where does WEARA (West of England Amateur Rowing Association) sit within this structure. It has its own points system, its own rules of racing etc. However whilst it sets out how wins at its regattas should translate into BR rowing points for athletes from its member clubs, it does not appear to define how these wins would affect oarsmen form outside the region.

There has always be a conversion factor for WEARA wins as far as I know and perhaps our friends in the north and let us know how they cope with Scottish crews coming south of the border. We don't tend to get many of them round here, but do get plenty of Welsh crews so it would be useful to know how to treat these "foreigners".

[Chris A]

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:21:14 PM UTC+1, JK wrote:

>

> I'm still interested to hear how many rowers/events are actually affected? I expect a lot of spleen being vented over very little where they are far bigger issues to deal with as alluded to before.
>

The winners of
W.J15A.4x+ on Saturday

The winners of

NOV.8+
NOV.4x-
J18A.4x-
J15A.4x+
IM3.2x on Sunday

I'm amazed that people are bringing politics, treaties, acts of union into this. They have nothing to do with it.

Wales has been content for a number of years to use BR's rules, registration system, BROE and IT and administrative infrastructure. It now seems that they are not content and wish to have their own rules, a decision they're perfectly entitled to reach. They cannot, however, assume that this has no consequences.

[John Griffiths]

Chris, I really think your efforts would be more usefully focussed in your own region where I know there are events flouting the points rules. Or even on crews that have had wins in Gent or even, dare I say it, the Home International Regattas which are far more deserving of points than a lowly sculler who may happen to win a straight final without breaking into a sweat.

[Richard]

That others may also be bending / breaking the rules is never a defence.

I notice no-one from Welsh Rowing has yet managed to do the simple task of publishing the Welsh Rules of Racing or the minutes of the relevant meeting of the Welsh Competition Committee. Why is this difficult? Or do they, as I and others suspect, simply not exist?

Please publish, or explain why you can't (or won't). This is the fifth time of asking (I think).

[davie...@gmail.com]

Easy tiger!
As Kissinger said
"University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."

No doubt rowing politics is smaller still.

Anyway, all Objects, Articles, Rules etc that you could ever want for BR are here:
http://www.britishrowing.org/sites/default/files/pages/22683/ArticlesUpdated22.9.2012.pdf

[davie...@gmail.com]

Here:

http://www.britishrowing.org/sites/default/files/pages/22683/ArticlesUpdated22.9.2012.pdf

But this still doesn't change the fact that BR's national jurisdiction doesn't cover Wales.

[Douglas MacFarlane]

In article <0020e5fc-e9ec-409c...@googlegroups.com>,

Richard <use...@rjpacker.org.uk> wrote:

> On Friday, 14 June 2013 13:26:37 UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> > On Thursday, 13 June 2013 23:27:00 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:21:14 PM UTC+1, JK wrote:
> >
> > >

...
...
...

>
> That others may also be bending / breaking the rules is never a defence.
>
> I notice no-one from Welsh Rowing has yet managed to do the simple task of
> publishing the Welsh Rules of Racing or the minutes of the relevant meeting
> of the Welsh Competition Committee. Why is this difficult? Or do they, as I
> and others suspect, simply not exist?
>
> Please publish, or explain why you can't (or won't). This is the fifth time
> of asking (I think).

From a quick look at the Welsh Rowing web site the page which covers
Governance and Minutes has access restricted to Welsh Rowing officers
and club members. Perhaps what you are looking for is there?

Douglas

[Richard du P]

On Friday, 14 June 2013 15:46:37 UTC+1, davie...@gmail.com wrote:

> But this still doesn't change the fact that BR's national jurisdiction doesn't cover Wales.

This, if it's agreed by Welsh Rowing to be true - would a competent authority in WR confirm? - surely answers all of our practical concerns?

Welsh clubs and individual competitors are effectively foreign?

..... English crews, winning in Wales, record points as nearly as possible as if the event had occurred under BR rules?

..... and the legitmacy of Welsh Rowing rules, governance and decisions, and indeed whether they exist, are questions the English don't need to worry about?

Richard du P

[Chris A]

On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:46:37 PM UTC+1, davie...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> But this still doesn't change the fact that BR's national jurisdiction doesn't cover Wales.

But that, as I've pointed out regularly, is entirely a canard. The issue is not whether British Rowing covers Wales. It doesn't (for national rowing). The issue is that Welsh Rowing was using British Rowing rules; now they are not, and they're quite entitled to change their mind and change the definition of non-qualifying, or use whatever rules they want. Things cannot continue as before with BROE.

[Carl]

On 14/06/2013 15:44, davie...@gmail.com wrote:

> Easy tiger!
> As Kissinger said
> "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."
>
> No doubt rowing politics is smaller still.
>

I apologise in advance to the greater world of RSR for the intimately
parochial nature of this thread. Many must be questioning the relevance
of this to the art & science of our sport. Have we lost that sense of
fun, irreverence & self-deprecation which gave us Monty Python?

Wales, historically and right up to the present, has been the regular
recipient of the rough end of the English pineapple. Born in a part of
the Principality which then was considered English, I feel sympathy
towards those asserting a Welsh independence from overweening English
regulation.

But my question is: What's the value to rowing of this argument?

The status rules (for English rowing) have been made made harder &
tighter by multiple layers of arcane legislation by a worthy bunch of
blazers, but upon the content of which legislation no rower can recall
having been asked their opinion. Like all human attempts to nail things
down ever more tightly, these rules are somewhat self-defeating.

When I competed we trusted each other to play straight (& settled
disputes privately). Officialdom had a lighter touch. And you went to
a regatta to race, not to protect your measly status for next year. We
had none of this card-carrying, points-book bureaucracy which now
infests the sport in the larger part of the largest of the British Isles
- the which island is itself a surly aggregation of once separate
nations, now so firmly under the thumb of the largest bunch that the
rest of the world mistakenly talks of the English when they mean the
British.

I suggest that the argument going on here confirms the damage done to a
sport by over-regulation. So perhaps it has real value?

Cheers -
Carl


--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglas.co.uk & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[davie...@gmail.com]

So this all boils down to the BROE online system and the inability of its implementation to reflect reality. "To err is human. To really screw things up requires a computer."

AIUI, there is no impact on classifying competitors at English events so long as the Welsh events where they may have won points were being managed by BROE, since any "English-equivalent" points will already be in the system.

Problems arise is when classifying competitors for Welsh events, because wins recorded in BROE may not be qualifying under Welsh rules.

Maybe a Welsh event could ask BROE for a list of entered competitors and their history, from which a reworking of their points from a Welsh perspective could pretty easily be calculated.

I'm sure a modicum of practical system analysis could solve all this, with no questioning of national juridictions or NCC definitions.

[Chris A]

On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:43:30 PM UTC+1, davie...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> So this all boils down to the BROE online system and the inability of its implementation to reflect reality. "To err is human. To really screw things up requires a computer."
>
>
>
> AIUI, there is no impact on classifying competitors at English events so long as the Welsh events where they may have won points were being managed by BROE, since any "English-equivalent" points will already be in the system.
>
>
>
> Problems arise is when classifying competitors for Welsh events, because wins recorded in BROE may not be qualifying under Welsh rules.
>
>
>
> Maybe a Welsh event could ask BROE for a list of entered competitors and their history, from which a reworking of their points from a Welsh perspective could pretty easily be calculated.
>
>
>
> I'm sure a modicum of practical system analysis could solve all this, with no questioning of national juridictions or NCC definitions.

Well BROE is designed to implement British Rowing's rules, not someone else's!

You have it the wrong way round. Welsh regatta secretaries would mark some events as non-qualifying (under Welsh rules) and so BROE would not allocate points. HQ then has to add the points manually to the English winners (and did so in this case). So English crews are correct in BROE, some Welsh crews are not.

And yet again, absolutely no-one is questioning the Welsh right to do this. It's just that they have not thought through the implications at all.

[Chris A]

On Friday, June 14, 2013 1:26:37 PM UTC+1, John Griffiths wrote:
> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 23:27:00 UTC+1, Chris A wrote:
>
> Chris, I really think your efforts would be more usefully focussed in your own region where I know there are events flouting the points rules. Or even on crews that have had wins in Gent or even, dare I say it, the Home International Regattas which are far more deserving of points than a lowly sculler who may happen to win a straight final without breaking into a sweat.

I look forward to seeing how many points Monmouth regatta will be awarding next year just at the point when we will be doing away with them.

But there is a serious point will Wales be sticking with the rules as operated this year or accepting wholesale the very different ones which are likely to be passed by BR Council in February? And will they be available anywhere?