Rigging based on oar brand
sue t
page with suggested rigging measurements (for elite scullers)
http://www.rowfluidesign.com/information/rigging.html.
The chart suggests measurements for different oar brands (for elite rowers).
The suggested rigging varies significantly.
My rigging is pretty close to the numbers for the Concept 2 Smoothies for a
Hwt Woman [or Hwy Woman as the chart indicates ;-) ]
I row with Dreher's (Apex). And the suggested span on the chart is wider
and the oar length longer than I use.
Then, I looked at the suggestion for Braca Sports. Much longer length but
narrower span.
I know blade type (i.e., smoothies) might affect rigging but is there that
much difference between brands?
.........................
sue
Walter Martindale
women will row a different rig with the same blade than will a junior
novice who's below lightweight (I know there's no "jr lwt"). The
manufacturers are probably setting their starting point at different
places on the scale of "who it's for".
Walter
Nick Suess
sue t <sue.thomas-...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:a5SBb.648993$6C4.467038@pd7tw1no...
Well, Sue, that makes it clear that your gearing should be much higher with
Braca, and even His Serene Holiness would agree that this can only mean one
thing. With Braca they expect that you'll be travelling a whole lot faster!
Nick Suess
Scull Success
Braca Sole Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Zak Wood
possible...
298.5? Sounds like going back to the days of the Macon's. (Come on Nick, a
more subtle dig I can't manage ;-)
"Nick Suess" <ni...@scull.com.au> wrote in message
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Nick Suess
Zak Wood <zakwood.spa...@worldonline.co.za> wrote in message
news:br94ne$m8ld$1...@ID-194134.news.uni-berlin.de...
> By that logic, the Dreher Apex R must be the most efficient blade
> possible...
>
> 298.5? Sounds like going back to the days of the Macon's. (Come on Nick, a
> more subtle dig I can't manage ;-)
What's subtlety got to do with rowing? Brute force & ignorance was always
the way back when I were young!
Anyway, when it comes to performance claims for oars, at least I was never
the one making any for vortex tips, was I?
Zak Wood
> the way back when I were young!
>
> Anyway, when it comes to performance claims for oars, at least I was never
> the one making any for vortex tips, was I?
>
Touche.
I must say, the more time I spend in the single, the more I'm becoming a fan
of the BF&I following - clearly there must come a point when I'll realise
that it is my only hope, having at the moment the technical skill of a
panda.
John Davis
Interestingly, I was told that at a recent C-2 clinic this sort of
issue came up. If I get what C-2 says, the smoothies, although cut off
on the end and therefore smaller in area on the face of the blade,
are, due to their shape, actually better at gripping the water and
therefore need to be rigged lighter than even the C-2 big blade with
the vortex strip. How much, I do not know.
Good luck
JD
"sue t" <sue.thomas-...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<a5SBb.648993$6C4.467038@pd7tw1no>...
Ewoud Dronkert
> C-2 says, the smoothies, although cut off
> on the end and therefore smaller in area on the face of the blade,
> are, due to their shape, actually better at gripping the water and
> therefore need to be rigged lighter than even the C-2 big blade with
> the vortex strip. How much, I do not know.
In one quad using smoothies and bigblades with the same size spoon
(standard is, what, 52 cm?) we first made them all the same length
(smoothies were adjustable) then gave the smoothies 0.5 cm (1 nodge)
larger inboard. That worked to everyone's satisfaction. Also, it was
for a 5 km head race and the smoothies were on stroke so even if this
rigging was a bit too easy we (the coaches) didn't see that as a
problem.
Otto
conclusions. Having used the Dreher Apex R, I would guess that those
numbers are way off. The surface area of the Apex R is a little less than
the hatchet style blades, but in my opinion not enough less to justify such
a large change in lever ratio.
-otto
"sue t" <sue.thomas-...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:a5SBb.648993$6C4.467038@pd7tw1no...
felipe
And with that, I think a panda rowing a single will be my holiday card this year ...
j brontey
> It would be interesting to here how Kari Juurakko arrived at these
> conclusions.
It's hard to imagine that anyone could come up with this kind of table
without using a good deal of opinion, and thus taken with a grain of
salt.
Ben
Rob Collings
> Sue:
>
> Interestingly, I was told that at a recent C-2 clinic this sort of
> issue came up. If I get what C-2 says, the smoothies, although cut off
> on the end and therefore smaller in area on the face of the blade,
> are, due to their shape, actually better at gripping the water and
> therefore need to be rigged lighter than even the C-2 big blade with
> the vortex strip. How much, I do not know.
IIRC the instructions that come with smoothies recommend using blades
1cm shorter than an equivalent big blade (or at least it did back in
2000 when our club bought a set). Eg if you usually rig your big
blades 374cm long, use 373cm long smoothies. I don't think the vortex
strip is meant to make a difference to the setup.
Rob.
Neil Wallace
>
> It's hard to imagine that anyone could come up with this kind of table
> without using a good deal of opinion, and thus taken with a grain of
> salt.
> Ben
unless they simply take averages from regatta measurements?
would explain why table is elite only..
Cfuerst
http://www.durhamboat.com on suggestions on rigging for Apex-R sculls and
oars. I think that the info on Gord Henry's Fluid Design site is a typo -
10 to 15 cm. too long in oar length. Next time I talk with him I will ask,
he also rows with Apex-R sculls. Jim Dreher
Ali Williams
Rigging is ultimately a personal thing, particularly in a single and needs
to be based on what works best for the individual. If you follow the tables
you do run the risk of gearing too heavily or too light.
The other side to tables based on observations taken at events is that there
is no allowance for changes made to rigging as a result of conditions. We
have all seen rigging changes in between the rounds of regattas, normally to
combat heavy winds.
They also make no allowance for the physical size of the athelete.
So, one could conclude that tables like this are only of any use as a
general guide.
"Neil Wallace" <rowing...@NOSPAM.virgin.net> wrote in message
news:brc7q3$h4f$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
sue t
are adjustable length sculls, which I've had for about five years. I bought
them second hand. I'm very satisfied with these oars. They have been very
durable, I love the adjustable length (and have played with that just a
bit), and find them very easy to repaint (done it twice). Each time I
consider replacing them, and I check out the blades in the boathouses, I
don't see anything that impresses me more than the ones I have. And then I
end up staying with my good old trusted Dreher's. Still doing the job very
well ... new grips every few months, repaint every couple of years, and
they're good as new!
I am very curious about the rounded blade though. I haven't found anyone on
Vancouver Island that has a pair. I'd love to see them, maybe try them. I
keep thinking I may replace my old Dreher's with a new pair. But there's
too many choices!
Apex?
Apex R?
Would they suit my style of rowing?
What if I didn't like them, at all?
I took the risk purchasing my Fluidesign sight unseen, no test row, and have
been extremely happy with my selection. But should I be going after new
Dreher's when my old ones are doing so well!?
Tough decision!
....................
sue
Matt Jensen
I have changed the numbers for the Apex (round) oars, it was a typo. Hope ppl realized that, don't
want ppl trying to row at a 299 length. As for the Data, Kari as an engineer by trade, used some
sort of analysis on each blade to come up with an optimal setting (but personal preference always
wins out). As the webmaster of the site, can't really tell you much more. I used his suggested
setting for croker oars, and it seemed to work for me at the canadian trials.
MPJ
Walter Martindale
discussions at the National Coaches Conference in Vancouver, in late
January.
Walter
Matt Jensen
response "Last 2 years I collected all info from single scull rigging from past World and Olympic
Rowing Champs. Also I noticed all oars are not the same. The blade area changes quite a not (see
attachment). So I made most common Worlds and Olympics oar (Concept 2 hatchet) as standard and then
ask computer to calculate other oars as equal. Force to hands and boat are equal. So all measurement
I sent you is correct, including Apex (round). This oar's blade is 6.3% smaller than other oars.
I tested Apex (round) last fall. I set them 295 and the middle of the stroke I didn't get power as I
got my C2 smoothies. They were still too light. They are very nicely made, but I do not recommend to
the elite level rowers." So I guess that it was not a typo in the table, still don't think ppl will
row at a 299. Hope this answers some of the questions out there. Kari also sent a picture of where
he compared the surface area of each blade, if you want to see it, just email me and I can send it
to you.
MPJ
Ian Simpson
blades, you should pitch the oarlocks one degree less than with other
manufacturers' oars. Has anyone found this to be the case?
Walter Martindale
vertical pin.
(well, that's what he told me last time we spoke at the KIRS factory in
Cambridge NZ while Howard was at the NZ Nationals, 2002)
I use that number with the more experienced people that I coach, and it
seems to work.
Walter
JimDreher
explains why I believe that you DO NOT want to rig Apex-R sculls and oars
the same as CII, Croker, Empacher or any of the DREHER APEX or BB2198 oars.
Yes the blade area is smaller, but it was designed to favor the 1st 1/3d of
the stroke at a more acute blade angle with a reduced spread and further
through the pin distance. Over a year ago three Elite scullers that used
them at NSR's and trials performed well and won, However I felt that they
were all rigged too wide and the sculls were too long. For example: Conel
Groom at NSR I placed I believe 3rd in the heavy men's single, but his rig
was if I remember correctly 160 spread with 299 length! This is similar to
what Kari recommends and probably resulted from his coaches recommendation
as a direct replacement to his regular Apex sculls. I watched him row and
most of the race he was under 30 spm. I think that the load was too heavy.
Another example: the US junior sculler Owen Pope was the first to use the
Apex-R sculls two years ago. He was a very light sculler, 6 ft. tall, but
just 135 lb. He was rigged at 157 spread, 284 length, and 10 cm through the
pin. This gave him a long stroke and a catch angle of about 25 degrees to
the boat at the catch. He was able to row at 34-35 the entire race and
sprint near 40 at the last 200 meters. This was an effective rig for him.
With Apex-R we suggest that narrower spreads, shorter oars and more through
the pin distance should be tried.
Matt Jensen" <mje...@uwo.ca> wrote in message
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JimDreher
"JimDreher" <j...@durhamboat.com> wrote in message
news:TUrDb.400937$275.1271018@attbi_s53...
Steven Maynard-Moody
Very helpful. When you say "10 cm through the pin," how is it measured? Are
you measuring from the center of the seat holes or the front of the seat?
--
Best, Steven M-M
"JimDreher" <j...@durhamboat.com> wrote in message
news:TUrDb.400937$275.1271018@attbi_s53...
Cfuerst
not the only way the work through is measured, but I think is the most
generally accepted.
Jim Dreher
"Steven Maynard-Moody" <s-mayna...@ku.edu> wrote in message
news:bro5sj$g8p$1...@news.cc.ukans.edu...
Tony Curran
My interpretation of "10 cm through the pin," is 10 cms measured from the
Work Point. Or, draw a line between the two pin centres. The front stops of
the rails should be set to 10cms in front of that line.
Amazin' how many rowers I cross at the Ottawa RC who haven't heard of the
Work Point and, of course, don't know how to set a boat up from that point.
Cheers,
Tony
Ottawa RC
"Steven Maynard-Moody" <s-mayna...@ku.edu> wrote in message
news:bro5sj$g8p$1...@news.cc.ukans.edu...
Steven Maynard-Moody
Thanks for the clarification. The reason I ask is that Redgrave's rigging
charts indicate that the range for "distance through the work" is 1 to 10
cm, with 5 cm preferred. But he measures the distance from the front of the
seat: "Setting the frontstops position to predetermine the angel of the
catch: read from the rigging chart the required distance through the work.
Slide the seat to frontstops and measure from the front edge of the seat to
the line of work" (Steven Redgrave, Complete Book of Rowing. London:
Transworld Publishers, 1995, p. 55).
Using Redgrave's guide, in my single the holes are centered on the "line of
work" with the front edge of the seat approximately 8 cm through the work.
Using Jim's measurement 10 cm through the work would be off Redgrave's chart
at 18 cm!
I rig to get the center of my seat holes to the line of work, or 0 in Jim's
system and 8 in Redgrave's. I already use oars that are shorter (287) and
with an shorter inboard (87) than most to achieve this and can't imagine
what I would have to do to get 10 cm further towards the stern.
--
Best, Steven
"Tony Curran" <tony....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:L6ODb.6563$CK3.5...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Ewoud Dronkert
> measurement [...] would be off Redgrave's chart
No surprise there, IMO they're a bit outdated those charts (also,
bigblades were brandnew). Better more through the work than less.