Original boat builders
Tony Curran
crafts we see today - the hull shapes I mean.
Carl Douglas is obviously one of them though he makes small boats only.
Stampfli was another but they seemed to have disappeared from the elite
scene, I don't recall seeing any at the '99 worlds.
Its been stated here in the past that a lot of the current makers are copies
of Empachers, but they inturn are copies from Karlisch. Are the full range
of hulls from Empacher copied from Karlisch?
Donoratico was an original, but I believe are lost to history as Filippi are
Empacher copies.
Vespoli appears to doing some original work, though he originally used hulls
from Carbocraft. Where did Carbocraft originate from?
Hudson used a mould from a company called Sabre Shell, for his winged
single, from the east coast of Canada but has since changed his single
shapes several times over the last few years. What about his bigger boats?
Don't know much about Pocock or Kaschper. Are they Empacher copies as well?
Resolute is new and I haven't actually seen one, but they could be classed
as one of the original thinkers!
But all the others. Empacher, Vespoli, Sims, Aylings, Filippi, Kirs,
Schoenbrod, Janousek, Sykes et al. Has there been nothing new since Karlisch
and Donoratico went out of business.
Technology for materials has advanced enormously. But what has happened to
hull shapes?
Are they boat "makers" not boat "builders".
Cheers,
Tony
Ottawa
Andreas Fischbach
> Empacher copies.
>
> Vespoli appears to doing some original work, though he originally used hulls
> from Carbocraft. Where did Carbocraft originate from?
>
> Hudson used a mould from a company called Sabre Shell, for his winged
> single, from the east coast of Canada but has since changed his single
> shapes several times over the last few years. What about his bigger boats?
>
> Don't know much about Pocock or Kaschper. Are they Empacher copies as well?
>
> Resolute is new and I haven't actually seen one, but they could be classed
> as one of the original thinkers!
>
> But all the others. Empacher, Vespoli, Sims, Aylings, Filippi, Kirs,
> Schoenbrod, Janousek, Sykes et al. Has there been nothing new since Karlisch
> and Donoratico went out of business.
>
> Technology for materials has advanced enormously. But what has happened to
> hull shapes?
>
> Are they boat "makers" not boat "builders".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tony
> Ottawa
I think, many boat builders use their own shapes, but they base on experience of
older shapes.
In my opinion, BBG (former known as VEB from east Germany) use different shapes
to empacher.
And also other boat builders have bought shapes which were sold by FES
(Forschungs und Entwicklungsstelle für Sportgeräte) at the breakdown of eastern
Germany. I think it was Filippi and Schellenbacher (from Linz, Austria).
Greetings from Andreas
dave henderson
One of my rowing careers was between 1974 and 1978. It seemed
to me that boatbuilders went in & out of fashion very quickly in
those days - one year everybody was in a Stampfli, the next it
was all Donoratico, the next it was Karlisch. Then the plastic
boats arrived...
I used to think of Karlisch(e)s and Dons as floating Porsches
and Ferraris - one beefy, the other sleek, both very fast.
Round about 1977 Winchester College painted the hull of their
new Don eight dark blue - it was the most beautiful boat I've
ever seen, before or since (sorry Carl).
Carl, of course, will know better than any of us, but something
in the back of my mind links the first Carbon boats with Edwin
Phelps, who was probably the premier (or at least the most
fashionable) English builder around that time.
Dave H
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Nick Suess
these new R2D2 (or is it V2??) guys in Cambridge, there have been no really
new hull shapes in years or even decades? Can it really be that those older
hulls (other than Carl's of course), designed without the benefits of modern
computer modelling techniques for water flow, were that well optimised?
I'm curious, and I also recall that someone in the recent debate about the
cleaver (hatchet) blade pointed out that they were just macons in curvature
and profile, but with a bit chopped out at the top and a different bit added
at the bottom. And I suppose macons were just toothpicks likewise. Is it
only with the introduction of smoothies/slicks/wings/apex that we are seeing
anything like a proper R&D effort in this area?
OK, let the Wild Rumpus re-commence!
Andreas Fischbach <andreas....@sicad.de> wrote in message
news:39642C7C...@sicad.de...
Andreas Fischbach
> So are the guys below telling us that other than Resolute, and I suppose
> these new R2D2 (or is it V2??) guys in Cambridge, there have been no really
> new hull shapes in years or even decades? Can it really be that those older
> hulls (other than Carl's of course), designed without the benefits of modern
> computer modelling techniques for water flow, were that well optimised?
>
> I'm curious, and I also recall that someone in the recent debate about the
> cleaver (hatchet) blade pointed out that they were just macons in curvature
> and profile, but with a bit chopped out at the top and a different bit added
> at the bottom. And I suppose macons were just toothpicks likewise. Is it
> only with the introduction of smoothies/slicks/wings/apex that we are seeing
> anything like a proper R&D effort in this area?
>
> OK, let the Wild Rumpus re-commence!
>
That's not the fact, I know a German Boat Builder (Gerhard Wenig) who builds
high class carbon singles (very nice Boats well craftmanship the "Carl Douglas
of Germany") who engeneers his shapes with speciall hydrodinamic simulation
Programms. (He has good contacts to Siemens at Erlangen). But he tells me, there
are some fomulas to build boats, from which you should not differ to much.
As example, in Gemany before the Olympic Games in Atlanta , FES built a new
eight, a very nice boat (black carbon eigth with golden anodisesed riggers and
so on) the MAGNUM eight for geman national eight, which is desigend for a stroke
rate about 36 spm.
At that spm, i heard, the boat was very fast, but at other rates, it was
horrible to row.
So it is a fact, that a boat builder can take more attention on special things,
like beeing very stable or diving into water at catch or finish.
But the shapes are all a compromise between all the factors of rowing and so the
shapes differ not to much.
And if some factors are very high priored, other facors get less priority.
Example the boats from BBG, are not so stable at balance, so very good tecnique
crews can go very fast.
Greetings Andreas
Gareth G Price
I used to row at monmouth and across the road was Nexton-wye who
made oars now these were Asymetric and £30,000 worth of research went into
these oars I don't know about the other companies but certainly there was
quite a lot of documentry evidence and time put into the research of these
oar and I certainly found them excellent.
--
GAZA
The one The only rowing's my everything
Nick Suess <ni...@scull.com.au> wrote in message
news:39644605$0$71...@motown.iinet.net.au...
> So are the guys below telling us that other than Resolute, and I suppose
> these new R2D2 (or is it V2??) guys in Cambridge, there have been no
really
> new hull shapes in years or even decades? Can it really be that those
older
> hulls (other than Carl's of course), designed without the benefits of
modern
> computer modelling techniques for water flow, were that well optimised?
>
> I'm curious, and I also recall that someone in the recent debate about the
> cleaver (hatchet) blade pointed out that they were just macons in
curvature
> and profile, but with a bit chopped out at the top and a different bit
added
> at the bottom. And I suppose macons were just toothpicks likewise. Is it
> only with the introduction of smoothies/slicks/wings/apex that we are
seeing
> anything like a proper R&D effort in this area?
>
> OK, let the Wild Rumpus re-commence!
>
Paul Slade
Filippi are based on BBG shapes.
All BBG shapes were designed by ex head of the FISA materials commission,
Klaus Filter. In my opinion still one of the worlds greatest designers.
Carbocraft was UK born I believe and even though the company line went
bankrupt a few times, they are current day Aylings.
Resolute are original builders but if you think that they were the first to
make a shoulderless eight you are wrong! >> I have seen photographs of a
wooden eight that didn't have any shoulder. NO it wasnt in the process of
being built, it had just come off the water after winning a GOLD medal at an
Olympics. I believe it was the US crew that rowed it (could be wrong). I
have a feeling it was a Karlisch (might be wrong again). Even though it was
a wooden boat it would have been just under todays FISA minimum weight class
for eights.
I heard that the Kaschper shape is there own and pretty decent!!
Sims use BBG designs. In my opinion the Klaus (bbg) designed lightweight
quad is the fastest quad shape around! Just look at Filippi and Sims (both
Klaus's shapes and both getting medals in the Olympics.
As far as own designs go, there is a builder in South Africa JOHN WAUGH, who
pretty much designed his own single some years back. Nothing really radical
except the amount of boat thats actually in the water. Very difficult to row
but ultra fast. >>> Has won pretty much every big local regatta and holds
every big record in SA. Thats against Empacher, Filippi, BBG and other big
names.
Sykes are apparently nothing radical but still all there own designs. They
have pioneered many things that are standard in rowing boats today (Aussie
rail system).
Ok we can go on and on, but a water session before the light disappears
sounds good to me. If Im mis-informed on any of what I have said I welcome,
with interest, corrections.
Regards
Paul
Andreas Fischbach wrote in message <39642C7C...@sicad.de>...
Curran, Tony [CAR:CF64-M:EXCH]
original post
Paul Slade wrote:
>
They
> have pioneered many things that are standard in rowing boats today (Aussie
> rail system).
I think Carl Douglas will have something to say about this - he has them
trademarked.
Tony
Michael Sullivan
>
> I was just wandering who really are the original boat builders of the fine
> crafts we see today - the hull shapes I mean.
>
> Carl Douglas is obviously one of them though he makes small boats only.
> Stampfli was another but they seemed to have disappeared from the elite
> scene, I don't recall seeing any at the '99 worlds.
Stampfli was an original, a great many builders copied
his hull designs.
>
> Its been stated here in the past that a lot of the current makers are copies
> of Empachers, but they inturn are copies from Karlisch. Are the full range
> of hulls from Empacher copied from Karlisch?
>
> Donoratico was an original, but I believe are lost to history as Filippi are
> Empacher copies.
I thought Empacher came from the Donorotico shop. I can
stand to be corrected here.
>
> Vespoli appears to doing some original work, though he originally used hulls
> from Carbocraft. Where did Carbocraft originate from?
Vespoli started as a Carbocraft rep in the US, then
started to build Carbos here.
>
> Hudson used a mould from a company called Sabre Shell, for his winged
> single, from the east coast of Canada but has since changed his single
> shapes several times over the last few years. What about his bigger boats?
>
> Don't know much about Pocock or Kaschper. Are they Empacher copies as well?
I don't know about the new hulls. Pocock is definitely
an original. George learned boatbuilding from his father
in England. His dad built boats on the Thames in the
last century (given that we're officially still in
the 20th).
>
> Resolute is new and I haven't actually seen one, but they could be classed
> as one of the original thinkers!
>
> But all the others. Empacher, Vespoli, Sims, Aylings, Filippi, Kirs,
> Schoenbrod, Janousek, Sykes et al. Has there been nothing new since Karlisch
> and Donoratico went out of business.
Schoenbrod originally derived Pocock style boats.
An innovative US builder left out here is Van Dusen.
While many small boat builders adapted and modidified
plugs taken from existing successful hulls, Ted engineered
and tank tested a new design entirely from scratch back
in the late 70s, as well as experimented with the newest
carbon fiber materials.
Other US boat builders: Robinson, King, Owens. Can't
say where they got their hull designs.
The Maas Aero is a pretty original looking open water
boat.
It sure doesn't take me long to tell you guys everything
I know - a couple minutes? :^)
Mike
Carl Douglas
Despite my hernia op this afternoon, I'm afraid I've got to correct that
one, Tony.
Jeff Sykes did invent the Aussie Rail slide. We at CDRS were first to
import & market it in Europe ('75), later making it under licence to
Jeff.
We gave it the "AussieRail" name. A catchy little number. And that
name is our copyright & property, available only to Sykes & ourselves.
Aussie Rail (the real stuff) sold well from the start. Then, as with so
much in rowing trade, despite the ready availability of an excellent
product at a knock-down price, the world & his wife all thought "Why not
rip that product off? It won't be any better. It won't be any cheaper.
And we'll slightly modify it so it doesn't even interchange with the
original. It will also be a bit heavier as a result. But never mind,
because then we can then pretend it's our own idea".
Consequence is that for other products we have designed we have to spend
money (our money - which in the end is your money, my clients) on
protecting our intellectual property.
All so utterly sad, silly & despicable, don't you think? But not
entirely surprising considering dire lack of real innovation in this
sport.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas Racing Shells
(for AeRoWing low-drag Riggers & Fine Small-Boats)
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JZ, UK
URL: http://www.carldouglas.co.uk TEL: +44 (0) 1784-456344
E-mail: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk FAX: +44 (0) 1784-466550
longb...@my-deja.com
inability to modify the curvature of their mold. The prevailing
thought at the time was that their macon shape had too much curvature
at the tip, thus adversely effecting the release. Since they could not
flatten the blade, they sawed the tip off and replaced the surface area
by adding it to the bottom of the blade. This allowed them to use the
same mold, but cut the shape with a different template; thus creating a
flatter, shorter, and wider blade.
George
The Longboat Company
Braca Sport Oars and Sculls
In article <39644605$0$71...@motown.iinet.net.au>,
> > > Donoratico was an original, but I believe are lost to history as
Filippi
> are
> > > Empacher copies.
> > >
> > > Vespoli appears to doing some original work, though he originally
used
> hulls
> > > from Carbocraft. Where did Carbocraft originate from?
> > >
> > > Hudson used a mould from a company called Sabre Shell, for his
winged
> > > single, from the east coast of Canada but has since changed his
single
> > > shapes several times over the last few years. What about his
bigger
> boats?
> > >
> > > Don't know much about Pocock or Kaschper. Are they Empacher
copies as
> well?
> > >
> > > Resolute is new and I haven't actually seen one, but they could
be
> classed
> > > as one of the original thinkers!
> > >
> > > But all the others. Empacher, Vespoli, Sims, Aylings, Filippi,
Kirs,
> > > Schoenbrod, Janousek, Sykes et al. Has there been nothing new
since
> Karlisch
> > > and Donoratico went out of business.
> > >
> > > Technology for materials has advanced enormously. But what has
happened
> to
> > > hull shapes?
> > >
> > > Are they boat "makers" not boat "builders".
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Tony
> > > Ottawa
> >
> > I think, many boat builders use their own shapes, but they base on
> experience of
> > older shapes.
> > In my opinion, BBG (former known as VEB from east Germany) use
different
> shapes
> > to empacher.
> > And also other boat builders have bought shapes which were sold by
FES
> > (Forschungs und Entwicklungsstelle für Sportgeräte) at the
breakdown of
> eastern
> > Germany. I think it was Filippi and Schellenbacher (from Linz,
Austria).
> > Greetings from Andreas
> >
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tim Wise
[snip]
>Sykes are apparently nothing radical but still all there own designs. They
>have pioneered many things that are standard in rowing boats today (Aussie
>rail system).
I guess this are the only brand I really have much experience with
(although I have rowed and won in Empacher, Stamplfi, Glyn Locke, S&B,
Ted Hayle, Vega.) having owned a single and couple of doubles over the
years.
(Ok so they all have Carl Douglas AeroWings.)
Sykes produces very well made and boats have a wide range of models, from
the
conservative Western European mold I row, to the radical (at least to the
eye)
Ultimate mold and the Model 26 which fits nicely in between.
Their double scull/pair design is well worth a look, Gold at the Barcelona
Olympics
in the men's heavy double double with a lightweight and former lightweight
for
crew, Gold and silver in the Womens pair at Atlanta and a bronze in the
Men's light double and Gold in the men's light double at the Worlds in 92,
93.
>
>Ok we can go on and on, but a water session before the light disappears
>sounds good to me. If Im mis-informed on any of what I have said I welcome,
>with interest, corrections.
I guess everyone has their favorites and I've been spouting on about mine.
I'd be interested to see someone put together a short history of rowing
technology and a comparison of various designs.
Tim
>
>Regards
>Paul
>
Tim Wise
http://www.sykes.com.au/manufacturing.html
Curran, Tony [CAR:CF64-M:EXCH] wrote in message
<3964B9EE...@americasm01.nt.com>...
>My apologies to BBG - I knew about them but forgot to add them to my
>original post
>
>Paul Slade wrote:
>>
>They
>> have pioneered many things that are standard in rowing boats today
(Aussie
>> rail system).
>
>I think Carl Douglas will have something to say about this - he has them
>trademarked.
>
Yes Carl does have it trademarked, interesting though that it is called
"AussieRail".
>Tony
Tim Wise
Matthias Hammer
by saying that there is an awful lot of copying going on out there. One of
the basic problems is that you are not allowed by FISA to patent or
copyright any kind of design that is to appear on the international scene.
The thinking behind this is that the market is kept open and level for all
competitors. But even if patenting was allowed, all a copycatter would have
to do is change one little aspect of the design slightly and sell it off as
his / her own to rip the inventor off, as Carl puts it so succinctly.
Having said all that, we at 2kVelocity Rowing Shells (2kV for short, Nick),
have developed all our hull designs from scratch, trying to be unimpeded by
traditional ideas of what rowing boats should look like. But it costs an
awful lot of money to be innovative, so I guess it is understandable that
most boatbuilders today just tinker with designs that go way back in time
and technology to only a few basic hull shapes, as discussed here.
If you are interested there is some information on our website about the
problems of old designs etc. and what we have come up with as a result. We
are at www.2kvelocity.com and in case you are wondering, we have just come
on the market this summer, so if you are outside the UK, you probably won't
have heard of us.
Regards
Matthias Hammer
-----------------------------------------------
2kVelocity Rowing Shells Ltd.
Unit 1, North Quay Business Park
Peto Way, Lowestoft NR32 2ED, UK.
T: +44-1502-538500 F: +44-1502-538599
W: http://www.2kvelocity.com
carbo...@gmail.com
> I was just wandering who really are the original boat builders of the fine
> crafts we see today - the hull shapes I mean.
>
> Carl Douglas is obviously one of them though he makes small boats only.
> Stampfli was another but they seemed to have disappeared from the elite
> scene, I don't recall seeing any at the '99 worlds.
>
> of Empachers, but they inturn are copies from Karlisch. Are the full range
> of hulls from Empacher copied from Karlisch?
>
> Empacher copies.
>
> Vespoli appears to doing some original work, though he originally used hulls
> from Carbocraft. Where did Carbocraft originate from?
>
> Hudson used a mould from a company called Sabre Shell, for his winged
> single, from the east coast of Canada but has since changed his single
> shapes several times over the last few years. What about his bigger boats?
>
> Don't know much about Pocock or Kaschper. Are they Empacher copies as well?
>
> Resolute is new and I haven't actually seen one, but they could be classed
> as one of the original thinkers!
>
> But all the others. Empacher, Vespoli, Sims, Aylings, Filippi, Kirs,
> Schoenbrod, Janousek, Sykes et al. Has there been nothing new since Karlisch
> and Donoratico went out of business.
>
> Technology for materials has advanced enormously. But what has happened to
> Are they boat "makers" not boat "builders".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tony
> Ottawa