Effects of a "too-heavy" single scull?

[jem]

Hello group.

I've been sculling for a couple of years now. In April last year I purchased my own single scull, a 2006 Janousek. The seller said it was suitable for a 95-110kg sculler and I was about 95kg at the time, so I judged it would be ok for me.

Later enquiries with Janousek into the warranty status of the boat revealed that it was actually built for a sculler weighing 110kg +/-5kg. I'm now 90kg, so the boat is 15-20kg "too heavy" for me.

After fifteen months of sculling in the boat, I'm still struggling a great deal to balance it when my spoons are off the water. Any attempt at slow-recovery sculling with plenty of time on the slide is very tricky, with the boat "toppling" over to one side or the other during the recovery, causing a spoon to dig in and catch a crab. In rough water, the boat bounces around beneath me making it almost impossible to clear my spoons from the water on recoveries.

I watch other scullers doing slow-recovery sculling without any problems, taking plenty of time on the slide with both spoons 2 inches off the water, perfectly balanced and wonder why I can't seem to get the hang of it. I've had plenty of advice, including balancing the boat with my feet and making sure my hand heights are the same on the recovery, but none of this seems to help.

Is it likely that the boat being for someone 20kg heavier than me is the cause of my difficulties, or am I just doing the "bad workman" routine?

Thanks.

jem

[Steve]

Hello,

I would say that being significantly "over boated" isn't going to do you
any favours in the balance department as more of the hull is out of the
water making what you've got beneath the waterline less than optimal. Given
that you are up to 20Kg less than the weight of the sculler the hull was
designed for certainly will not help.

However, having said that I'm not too sure just how much actual hull
resizing is done by Janousek to accommodate the specified scullers weight
given that on their website they seem to show one set of hull dimensions
regardless of crew weight.

I've heard it said that what Janousek do is simply raise or lower the seat
deck height along with the sax boards to fit the targeted crew weight and no
actual hull dimensions are changed. Of course, this may be quite wrong, but
I'm sure others here can correct me on this.

Does your boat sit level when placed into the water without sculls? I once
sculled a boat that when placed into the water kept tipping over to the same
side which didn't help.

Also ensure you're rigged correctly dependant on whether you scull left over
right etc.


--

Regards

Steve
"jem" <jason...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7f2d4eb-0cbb-458d...@googlegroups.com...

[Tinus]

On 08/03/2012 02:37 PM, Steve wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I would say that being significantly "over boated" isn't going to do you
> any favours in the balance department as more of the hull is out of the
> water making what you've got beneath the waterline less than optimal. Given
> that you are up to 20Kg less than the weight of the sculler the hull was
> designed for certainly will not help.
>
> However, having said that I'm not too sure just how much actual hull
> resizing is done by Janousek to accommodate the specified scullers weight
> given that on their website they seem to show one set of hull dimensions
> regardless of crew weight.
>
> I've heard it said that what Janousek do is simply raise or lower the seat
> deck height along with the sax boards to fit the targeted crew weight and no
> actual hull dimensions are changed. Of course, this may be quite wrong, but
> I'm sure others here can correct me on this.
>
> Does your boat sit level when placed into the water without sculls? I once
> sculled a boat that when placed into the water kept tipping over to the same
> side which didn't help.
>
> Also ensure you're rigged correctly dependant on whether you scull left over
> right etc.
>
>

I believe the practical weight limit is much larger than the +/- 5kg
limit given by Janousek, from the point of view of stability. An extra
20kg would decrease your height above the water only about 1.5 cm. That
has an effect but should be workable. Also, heavier people are often
taller which counters this effect. So, whether you are a big person or
not should not matter much in the stability of the boat.

Especially if the only difference is a taller saxboard then it doesn't
matter much to use a different boat. Differences between boats are more
common when moving from a heavyweight boat to a lightweight boat.
However the lightweight boat's length and width being smaller is only
improving the wetted service area and has a detrimental effect on stability.

[jem]

Thank you for your reply Steve.

On Friday, August 3, 2012 1:37:53 PM UTC+1, Steve wrote:
> Does your boat sit level when placed into the water without sculls? I once
> sculled a boat that when placed into the water kept tipping over to the same
> side which didn't help.

No, it consistently tips over to stroke side when I place it in the water.

> Also ensure you're rigged correctly dependant on whether you scull left over
> right etc.

I checked this on Tuesday evening after a particularly frustrating choppy outing. I scull left over right. My bow gate was 15mm higher than my stroke gate (180mm vs 165mm above the lowest point of my seat). I've reduced the difference by lowering the bow gate by 5mm but haven't yet tested the changes. I'll do so in the morning.

Thanks.
jem

[Carl]

On 03/08/2012 14:21, jem wrote:
> Thank you for your reply Steve.
>
> On Friday, August 3, 2012 1:37:53 PM UTC+1, Steve wrote:
>> Does your boat sit level when placed into the water without sculls? I once
>> sculled a boat that when placed into the water kept tipping over to the same
>> side which didn't help.
>
> No, it consistently tips over to stroke side when I place it in the water.

This could be due to hull asymmetry or to one pin being further from the
hull centreline than the other. If checking pin location, remember that
you should measure _horizontally_, not diagonally upwards, and do so
from a point perpendicularly above the mid-line between the slide
tracks, not from the top of the opposite saxboard. The mid-line of the
tracks is the most relevant centreline as it is over this that your
weight will be centred but, if that line is itself not directly above
the hull's own effective centre-line, you'll have further reasons for
imbalance.

A rigged sculling boat will not normally be self-stable since it has a
rounded bottom and its CofG above its roll centre. Lean it just
slightly one way or the other and it will fall that way, unless
inherently out of kilter. You could do the balance test with the
riggers removed, to see how level the hull itself wants to float.

You could also put the inverted boat on trestles in the boathouse and
just look along it to check that it looks straight and hasn't suffered
from a poorly executed nose-job (or stern-job). With a tad more effort
you could run a couple of parallel cottons along the length of your
inverted boat at deck level and measure between these cottons & hull
near bow, at the middle & near the stern.

If you and another person agree that all is not right on any of these
tests, then you will know you have a real problem but not before.

>
>> Also ensure you're rigged correctly dependant on whether you scull left over
>> right etc.
>
> I checked this on Tuesday evening after a particularly frustrating choppy outing. I scull left over right. My bow gate was 15mm higher than my stroke gate (180mm vs 165mm above the lowest point of my seat). I've reduced the difference by lowering the bow gate by 5mm but haven't yet tested the changes. I'll do so in the morning.
>
> Thanks.
> jem
>

If this boat is new to you, scull smoothly and at a reasonable rate,
especially in the chop, until you are less tense within yourself. Low
rate exercises are not likely to work well unless you can paddle your
boat stably at higher ratings. Check that your finishes extract
smoothly and together.

Obviously I can't and won't comment on the boat itself, but I would
encourage you to be careful of looking for fault in the boat until
you've given it an uncompromised trial.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglas.co.uk & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[robin_d...@hotmail.com]

It could be the "bad workman" syndrome, but from what you've said it sounds like you're being un-necessarily hard on yourself and are "over-boated".

If what I've been told anecdotally about shells and rated "crew weights" is true, then when you have a limited number of fixed moulds used for wide ranges of crew weights by a manufacturer, for each 10kg increment or decrement in average weight of the crew, the shell will sit on average about 10mm lower in the water and vice versa. Correspondingly, the manufacturer would adjust the bonded height of the deck board onto the naked shell moulding and weld the rigger angles such that the seat and the rigging height would equate to that 10mm increment or decrement, within reason. Obviously there are usually height ring adjusters above and below the oarlocks etc as well, but let's just take those out of the equation for the moment, as I am assuming your rigging is set up at its minimum possible height right now.

What this would suggest is that on average, if you (being 20kg underweight) are sitting in this particular boat without having tinkered with height wedges etc, the whole set up will be sitting 20mm higher than would be optimal for you the athlete - so your centre of mass (centre of gravity?) will be 20mm higher than ideal, making it more difficult to balance the boat - you'll be sitting up in the air like a pea on a drum.

This is compounded by the fact that the handles are tilted at an upwards angle when the blades are buried, for argument's sake at mid-drive as it is easier to picture (although this is true throughout the stroke) and this will vary with the depth the entire system is sitting in the water. I have a rough rule of thumb that I use for the handle heights with respect to the body based on the oarlock heights, which works out roughly "a centimetre of height (above the waterline) at the oarlock equates to an inch above the waterline at the body", based on ratio of inboard to outboard and some very rough trigonometry.

If (somehow) you've managed to completely bury the blades, we must take into account that the boat - and its oarlocks - are around 20mm or 2cm higher than they should be. This means that your hands will be around 2 inches - or ~50mm higher at the body than would necessarily be optimal - so to fully bury the blades you will have your hands at somewhere close to shoulder height (rather than the ribcage). The likelihood is you will either find it difficult to bury the blades fully at the catch and difficult to keep them engaged with the water through the finish and end up rowing "over a barrel". Conversely if you hold your handles at the height which would be ideal against your body, the blades will probably be only half-buried so you'll wash out.

Easy and quick fix - to see if it is the rigging height which is the issue -

Lower the rigging globally by 20mm - by inserting 2 degrees of wedge outwards underneath the rigger feet against the gunwales. This will add 2 degrees of outboard angle to the pins - and may also cause issues with clearance during the recovery (although if the boat is floating this high to begin with you should be o.k), but this can be tolerated providing there wasn't already outboard angle built in.

Once you've done this, make sure that the rigging is similar in height on both sides - I have encountered older sculling boats where the flat surface the riggers bolted on to differed in angle and required different wedges both sides, making it run "stably" about 3 degrees off vertical!

[A3aan]

I wouldn't expect the bigger boat to be the cause of these problems, but the thought can keep nagging at you. Why don't you ask another, more experienced sculler to row your boat and ask him/her how it feels?

good luck,

A3aan.

[sully]

On Aug 3, 4:11 am, jem <jason.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello group.
>
> I've been sculling for a couple of years now.  In April last year I purchased my own single

How often do you scull? What other boats have you sculled in, and
how did that go?

[jem]

On Friday, August 3, 2012 4:56:18 PM UTC+1, sully wrote:
> How often do you scull? What other boats have you sculled in, and
> how did that go?

2-3 outings per week.

More recently I've been getting out in a double and a quad quite regularly, and don't have any trouble in those. I hope that's not due to my crew mates compensating for me!

[sully]

I can stick two brand new scullers in a double
and they will row the boat very easily. It is
an easy boat to row among competitive hulls.

I have seen many many scullers who row about
as often as you for the same time period who
share your difficulty. The "overboating" has
less to do with size of the hull, and more to do
with learning how to row it, IMHO.

some ppl will become comfortable in a
racing hull relatively quickly, many will take a
lot longer.

Out of a group of college novices I had a year
back, there were new kids who were able
to row their boat very nicely after two months
total of sculling, 4 days a week on the water.
there were a couple who just couldn't get
comfortable, and one had rowed sweep a year
before I started him sculling. He was a good
physiological specimen, but not as coordinated.
Moved him back to an Aero.

[KC]

Jason,

To what's already been said, I'll add this: Whatever actual, real effects that exist for "overboating;" you're not, IMO, in the range where it would be very noticeable, if at all. You're ~20kg under the recommended weight for the boat. Go get 2 or three gallon ziplock freezer bags, fill them with sand until the total weight is ~10lb and distribute them in the boat. Or wear a weight belt, or any other of many ways to add weight to the system. If this solves your problem well then there you go. I doubt it will though.

If you were a true lightweight then I'd say you need a smaller boat. But at 10lb under the boat's wt. class. I don't think that's enough to cause concern for a recreational rower. Were you training for senior/elite national team trials, I'd sing a different tune, for different reasons.

Cheers,
KC

[zeke_hoskin]

On Friday, August 3, 2012 4:11:25 AM UTC-7, jem wrote:
> Hello group.
>
>
>
> I've been sculling for a couple of years now. In April last year I purchased my own single scull, a 2006 Janousek. The seller said it was suitable for a 95-110kg sculler and I was about 95kg at the time, so I judged it would be ok for me.
>
>
>
> Later enquiries with Janousek into the warranty status of the boat revealed that it was actually built for a sculler weighing 110kg +/-5kg. I'm now 90kg, so the boat is 15-20kg "too heavy" for me.
>
>
>
> After fifteen months of sculling in the boat, I'm still struggling a great deal to balance it when my spoons are off the water. Any attempt at slow-recovery sculling with plenty of time on the slide is very tricky, with the boat "toppling" over to one side or the other during the recovery, causing a spoon to dig in and catch a crab. In rough water, the boat bounces around beneath me making it almost impossible to clear my spoons from the water on recoveries.
>
>
>
> I watch other scullers doing slow-recovery sculling without any problems, taking plenty of time on the slide with both spoons 2 inches off the water, perfectly balanced and wonder why I can't seem to get the hang of it. I've had plenty of advice, including balancing the boat with my feet and making sure my hand heights are the same on the recovery, but none of this seems to help.
>

Unlike many who know more than I do, I have no idea if your problem is the boat. So try another boat! Experiment trumps theory in every field but theology.

[sully]

The Olys have brought out a bunch of new ppl to
the lake wanting to learn to row.

Now they bring KC back to RSR!

Hope the fam is well! I need to stop in
and say hi.

[KC]

Totally! Come by our new pad some time on your way through. Just give me a call and I'll have a beer chilling.
KC

[Adriaan]

On 3-8-2012 22:40, KC wrote:
>
> Or wear a weight belt

Whilst rowing? In a single? Isn't that, eh, a bit dangerous?!

--
Adriaan

[saraha...@gmail.com]

More dangerous than 'carry a 10kg weight in the boat' which is actually what someone suggested I do to help when I was sculling a 70kg Filippi...

Having tried and failed to scull well in a boat that was 10kg too big for me, I can honestly say that it makes a difference to be properly boated - it also makes the rigging a lot easier to sort out too (the filippi had the gates as low as they'd go, and I was on 2 seat pads, yet i was still having to draw up to my neck at the finish and I don't have a short body for a lwt girl).

Speaking of lwt girls GO GB!! They were awesome just now!

Sarah

[johnf...@gmail.com]

Just make sure you have a will in place and everything will be fine.

Seriously, I know of a woman who weighs 155-ish and trains in a HW boat, races in a MW and wins. Her skill level is high, though. I raced once in a super-HW boat (200-220 rated) and I weighed about 175 at the time. Had to rig it all the way down and wasn't particularly happy, but managed. On the plus side, it turned really easily because less hull was in the water.

I second the motion for the OP to train at stroke position in a 2x as a great way to raise skill level. Helped me a lot. Or try another 1x. I had problems setting the MW Vespoli I had, switched to a used Empacher, and found that far more stable.

As for learning rates, we recently had a clinic which included two teenaged boys aged 14 and 17. The 14YO had 10 days experience, the 17YO less than a month. They shared a HW Vespoli the first day and managed, though the 14YO weighs only about 145 - he was much happier with handle heights when we put him into a MW the next day. His mother is from the UK, so we suspect a genetic component in his case. The coach of the clinic said he works with a lot of teenagers and finds that learning this quickly is not unusual for early teenagers.

[jem]

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll take the opportunity to try a lighter boat if one arises, but other than that I'll just have to persevere with what I have.

[amymcb...@gmail.com]

I had similar problem of pulling in way too high in filippi and the sales rep sold me 4 wedges (2 for each side of the rigor). The wide part goes towards the bow. That lowered the oarlocks so now I can row with no seat pad, which keeps my center of gravity much lower, thus the boat is easier to balance. For the record, I am in the middle of the weight rating for the boat.