coaching
Mike Sullivan
morning right next to a MarinBabe (MarinBabes are 40sumpthin, polar
fleece and tights w/ pony tail out the back of a baseball cap) -
best of luck, Nick...
I thought I'd share this slight OT with some of you who coach
rowing.
This weekend my daughter had the championship volleyball tourney
for 8th grade in the area. Her team was seeded 6th out of seven
and ended up second. They won 3 games all season, two against the
last seed. Throughout the year the coach played all the players
where the better teams usually played their best players with only
nominal subbing. Also, this coach was extremely disciplined at
teaching, insisting the girls play bump/set/spike every single
game no matter what the situation, where the better teams would
play the full game only when comfortably ahead, or when the ball
was easy to field.
This resulted in a number of losses to teams they perhaps had the
athletic talent to beat, but at that level, the more you touch the
ball, the more chances you have to mishandle and lose the point.
She was unflaggingly positive, I never saw her get mad at a player,
or berate the player, and was constantly encouraging.
I was really happy with what I saw because Brenna was learning a lot
of volleyball (so was I!) even though they endured loss after loss,
and some girls on the team, well they'd behave like 13 yr old girls
will.
This weekend their game seemed to finally come together, and they
upset the best team in the league (undefeated) and you could see
on one hand it might look like magic, but on the other hand, every
point that had extended volleys, they got better and better all
through the tourney.
I had tingles, not at all from the result, but from watching a truly
masterful coach stay to their plan and execute it successfully.
This school never has gotten this far in the tourney before, though
the high school it feeds consistently is the top of the league (the
same girls).
So many times in my own coaching, I can point to times where I
abandon what I believe to be the right approach in favor of a
result. It's either a lack of confidence, or patience.
Nick came to all the games, but I think he was distracted by the
referee....
Mike
Walter Martindale
Focus on the basics, because it's all basics? Patience and Persistence?
Right on!
When you get frustrated with an athlete who doesn't seem to be
improving, remember, he or she wants to row well. And go fast(er).
Something twigged about coaching frustrations I've had. Coach someone
to fix a technical booboo. Look away, and look back later, and the
booboo is back. Think this.. The error they've been making is well
trained, the correction is not. When they may be trying to reproduce
the correction, the well trained and potentially incorrect motor
recruitment pattern may fight its way back to the top and be seen in the
athlete's movements. Try - correct, rest. Row, correct if needed, when
the error resurfaces, rest. repeat as necessary. Interrupts an
endurance session, but might result in more speed in the long run?
Good on your daughter's coach for her approach and patience.
(re: Nick distracted by the referee... he is, after all, an Aussie. Hi
Nick!)
Walter
John Bennett
Who the hell is interested in this?
Mike Sullivan <Su...@forsythe.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:8u6rp4$1...@lindy.stanford.edu...
> This is really Mike this time, I dropped Nick off in Sausalito this
> morning right next to a MarinBabe (MarinBabes are 40sumpthin, polar
> fleece and tights w/ pony tail out the back of a baseball cap) -
> best of luck, Nick...
>
> I thought I'd share this slight OT with some of you who coach
> rowing.
>
> This weekend my daughter had the championship volleyball tourney
> for 8th grade in the area. Her team was seeded 6th out of seven
> and ended up second. They won 3 games all season, two against the
> last seed. Throughout the year the coach played all the players
> where the better teams usually played their best players with only
> nominal subbing. Also, this coach was extremely disciplined at
> teaching, insisting the girls play bump/set/spike every single
> game no matter what the situation, where the better teams would
> play the full game only when comfortably ahead, or when the ball
> was easy to field.
>
ben
coaching / training .
If you are not interested just skip the post and shut the f¤%& beeeeep &%k
up !
ben
John Bennett wrote in message <3a07...@pink.one.net.au>...
Adriaan Koster
> When you get frustrated with an athlete who doesn't seem to be
> improving, remember, he or she wants to row well. And go fast(er).
> Something twigged about coaching frustrations I've had. Coach someone
> to fix a technical booboo. Look away, and look back later, and the
> booboo is back. Think this.. The error they've been making is well
> trained, the correction is not. When they may be trying to reproduce
> the correction, the well trained and potentially incorrect motor
> recruitment pattern may fight its way back to the top and be seen in the
> athlete's movements.
Lately I have been wondering about this 'error correction' attitude we
rowers and coaches seem to have. Not only does it seem a quite rigid
approach to a complex movement like rowing (as if there would be only
one 'correct' way). But I also see evidence for the contrary when I
watch the top-level athletes row breathtaking races at the games: their
technique contains many so-called errors but still they are the fastest
in the world (or they wouldn't be there). I see a lot of catch-hitting,
loom-burying, back-throwing, washy blade extractions etc.
One dutch coach, Jonkman, who coached the Dutch lightweight coxless
four, has taken the approach of letting each rower row their own style
under the assumption that this style is different for each person. Of
course one would have to believe that rowing different styles of
bodywork can still produce the same stroke in the water and make the
collective go fast. This, I think is one of the basic things we don't
usually beleive. Everybody has to do the exact same thing or the boat
won't go fast, so every deviation from 'standard' is an error.
Personally I think the Dutch LW4- might have been too far apart to keep
it comfortably together during the races that matter, but in general I
don't like the 'standard stroke' concept. Mainly because it never works
out exactly like that, unless you can select from a really large group
of rowers and work on them a long long time.
In other sports the adaptation of technique to an individual is
sometimes far more accepted, but in rowing we all have to be marionets
that do the same.
One extreme example where I felt this worked adversely, was when I rowed
with somebody who was training in an Oxford eight. Their coaches had
learnt them to repeat the exact same stroke each time and just hope for
balance and rowing together as if with your eyes closed. We were in a
pair and of course this approach doesn't work out then, unless you have
identical stroke types (which we didn't). When I explained that it might
be better to keep the blade at a reasonable height above the water level
at all times during the recovery instead of keeping the hand-height in
the boat at a fixed distance we could suddenly row the pair whilst
keeping it set!
I wonder what thoughts others have on this topic.
A3aan.
Gareth G. Price
finding very difficult to get concepts over too. Back to Basics I think.
Gareth G Price
ben <bug...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:rpPN5.15110$oL4.3...@news2.nokia.com...
Anu Dudhia
>
> I wonder what thoughts others have on this topic.
I think you're a brave man for suggesting to Henriette that she might be
doing something wrong!
Anu Dudhia
> What a lot of crap.
> Who the hell is interested in this?
You're new around here, aren't you?
ben
I personally appreciated the initial post very much, since I tend to be too
unpatient with myself in practise in general and always need someone to
help me stick to a certain exercise even if it is not working out yet
properly !
ben
Gareth G. Price wrote in message
<973588687.17203.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>Well said ben. This has helped me think about some of my girls that I'm
>finding very difficult to get concepts over too. Back to Basics I think.
>
>Gareth G Price
>
>
>ben <bug...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>news:rpPN5.15110$oL4.3...@news2.nokia.com...
>> If you don't get the point of it then you don't know anything about
>> coaching / training .
>>
>> If you are not interested just skip the post and shut the f¤%& beeeeep
&%k
>> up !
>>
>> ben
>>
>> John Bennett wrote in message <3a07...@pink.one.net.au>...
Gareth G. Price
completetly biased!
Gareth
Memeber of the Love and Appreciate your coach society!
ben <bug...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:N_PN5.13683$AM5.2...@news1.nokia.com...
Adriaan Koster
Shush!
Tim Granger
Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>John Bennett wrote:
>
>> What a lot of crap.
>> Who the hell is interested in this?
>
Yeah, didn't you know that this news group is about bass fishing
only...
Tim
Ewoud Dronkert
> watch the top-level athletes row breathtaking races at the games:
> their technique contains many so-called errors but still they are
> the fastest in the world (or they wouldn't be there). I see a lot
> of catch-hitting, loom-burying, back-throwing, washy blade
> extractions etc.
I agree that the top athletes still make errors. However my perspective
on that is that it showes how important strength and endurance are in
our sport. With lots of power and a little feeling for the motion you
can come far using less than perfect technique. (BTA there's the
American eight.. Far but not far enough maybe). Especially just below
top level rowing there's too much emphasis on technique improvement as a
means of getting faster. Just learn 'm to relax, lots of miles, build
power, and they will go faster. Good technique will almost be a result
of this, certainly not the other way 'round. You must try and point out
the most limiting factor. Most often it will simply be: not enough
power. (which as a result can mean loss of technique in later stages of
the race).
> Personally I think the Dutch LW4- might have been too far apart
You mean the LM4- of course (there not being a LW4-).
Ewoud
Triton Utrecht
l...@twrc.org
> Yeah, didn't you know that this news group is about bass fishing
maybe he was looking for rec.sport.arguing and got confused....
liz
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Trevor Chambers
>
>
>
> Lately I have been wondering about this 'error correction' attitude we
> rowers and coaches seem to have. Not only does it seem a quite rigid
> approach to a complex movement like rowing (as if there would be only
> one 'correct' way). But I also see evidence for the contrary when I
> technique contains many so-called errors but still they are the fastest
> in the world (or they wouldn't be there). I see a lot of catch-hitting,
> loom-burying, back-throwing, washy blade extractions etc.
>
> four, has taken the approach of letting each rower row their own style
> under the assumption that this style is different for each person. Of
> course one would have to believe that rowing different styles of
> bodywork can still produce the same stroke in the water and make the
> collective go fast. This, I think is one of the basic things we don't
> usually beleive.
>
To those with an interest in the history of the sport, this is a
remarkably similar argument to the century-old "orthodoxy versus
Fairbairnism" debate.
Orthodoxy coached for identical body momevents on the assumption that
that necessarily lead to uniformity of bladework in the water and hence
a fast crew, but took a long time to get from scratch crew ro finished
crew because of the difficulties of coaching stylistic body movements to
e.g. an 8.
Steve Fairbairn effectively said to hell with that, and coached for
precise bladework, accepting that because it was highly unlikely that
the 8 in the boat would all be the same height/strength/flexibility, it
was also therefore highly unlikely that their bodies would move in
perfect sync. And since it is the bladework which moves the boat, that
was more important. At the time of this major shake-up in philosophy, it
was further muddled because the end result of both "religions" was much
the same, but Fairbairn got there quicker.
And that's before we drag Conibear and the Russians into it....
Trevor
Sudbury RC
Neil Selby
: Shush!
So how much is it worth for me not to mail this entire exchange to Henriette
then? Personally, I think Anu's in the most trouble...
cheers,
Neil
Walter Martindale
Adriaan Koster wrote:
> Walter Martindale wrote:
>
> > When you get frustrated with an athlete who doesn't seem to be
> > improving, remember, he or she wants to row well. And go fast(er).
> > Something twigged about coaching frustrations I've had. Coach someone
> (snip)
> Lately I have been wondering about this 'error correction' attitude we
> rowers and coaches seem to have. Not only does it seem a quite rigid
> approach to a complex movement like rowing (as if there would be only
(snip)
True. I've read Fairbairn's book. Cost $120NZ when I got it through an
internet book finder. I've been at this coaching since 1983 and have changed
the way I coach considerably over the years. Now, the thing I pay attention
to first is the bladework.. The timing of the entry with respect to seat
movement, is the athlete in a strong posture to start the stroke, is the
athlete starting the drive with a "connected" (to the oar handle(s)) push on
the stretcher, is the movement - in general - biggest muscle groups to
smallest muscle groups, and so on. I don't believe that you have to row one
way or another as long as most of the "principles of qualitative biomechanics"
are paid some attention. Most of the winning crews row within the principles
(to my eye, anyway) and have very good bladework, particularly wrt the
seat-oar timing.
My father the Major IG was a martinet - I try to remember what it was like
growing up and to NOT submit people I coach to that. Life's far too short.
Walter
john__...@my-deja.com
> What a lot of crap.
> Who the hell is interested in this?
It's more interesting and thought provoking than 90% of the stuff in
RSR!! Plus, Brenna is a real cool kid. Takes after her mom, of
course!!! Way to go Brenna!!!
JD
john__...@my-deja.com
"Gareth G. Price" <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote:
> Coaches you've got to love them. Best things in the world. Then
again I'm completetly biased!
> Gareth
How do I sign up?? What are the dues?? Is there a secret handshake? I
bet Sully could come up with a great motto!
Michael Sullivan
>
> Walter Martindale wrote:
>
> > improving, remember, he or she wants to row well. And go fast(er).
> > Something twigged about coaching frustrations I've had. Coach someone
> > to fix a technical booboo. Look away, and look back later, and the
> > booboo is back. Think this.. The error they've been making is well
> > trained, the correction is not. When they may be trying to reproduce
> > the correction, the well trained and potentially incorrect motor
> > recruitment pattern may fight its way back to the top and be seen in the
> > athlete's movements.
This is exactly right, Walter. there should be a lot of time
allocated to drilling in the correct motion, that is slow, non-
strenuous physical work. There's a time of season for that.
>
> Lately I have been wondering about this 'error correction' attitude we
> rowers and coaches seem to have. Not only does it seem a quite rigid
> approach to a complex movement like rowing (as if there would be only
> one 'correct' way). But I also see evidence for the contrary when I
> watch the top-level athletes row breathtaking races at the games: their
> technique contains many so-called errors but still they are the fastest
> in the world (or they wouldn't be there). I see a lot of catch-hitting,
> loom-burying, back-throwing, washy blade extractions etc.
And this has always been the case. I've always found it
interesting that two crews can row such radically different
styles and be very very fast. Our bodies do adapt.
Training has evolved drastically in the last couple decades. Coaches
are using the ergs as tools not just testing devices and are figuring
out how to maximize aerobic work without burning athletes out. The
old adage, fitness gives you lengths to be in the race, technique gives
you the seats you need to win is still true.
Again, my point was not so much WHAT we teach, but HOW we teach
it. I know there are rowing coaches that do this, but it took
this vball coach from an 8th grade girls team to slap me on the
face to see it in action.
Mike
Michael Sullivan
>
> John Bennett wrote:
>
> > What a lot of crap.
> > Who the hell is interested in this?
>
> You're new around here, aren't you?
(sully laughs evilly...)
Nick now suspects that these goofballs
are actually aliases of mine that I use
to attack my own posts. This way they
get the attention they would have gotten
if they were well reasoned and well written...
:^)
Mike
NO
>I wonder what thoughts others have on this topic.
>
I totally agree. Too many coaches tend to have some sort of fixed idea
of what the perfect stroke is; unfortunately, not everyone is
identical, and not everyone can execute a stroke exactly the same.
Good coaches have specific acieveable goals they try to accomplish
with a crew, most especially timing. Pretty much, if you can get
timing and power application to be pretty much universal through the
boat, any problems of set and check will not factor much. I have
found that my coach really doesn't care much about moving hands to fix
the set of the boat, because he knows that they problem lies in power
application and timing. Unfortunately, my cox hasn't learned that yet
:)
Rowing for the most part is a commong-sense sport; with enough rowing,
your body will learn to row the best way possible for it's given
size/weight/shape/etc. For some people it may take a longer time to
teach their body how to row, but sooner or later it will happen with
enough time in the boat. That's why old geezers can dust us young
buffs for 10 strokes before they get tired, since they have spent
enough time to perfect the rower/shell symmetry.
Joe
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
NO
>
>And that's before we drag Conibear and the Russians into it....
>
>Trevor
>
>Sudbury RC
Actually, it's Pocock. Conibear was a physical trainer and knew
nothing specific about rowing. All his advice he got from George
Pocock, who had come to america from England where his father was head
boatbuilder for Eton College. George's son Stan founded LWRC and
coached several of the 1956, 1960 and 1964 men's olympic teams. as
well as several PanAm crews. Heck, half the boats in our boathouse are
named after olympians who rowed out of LWRC.
You can get a synopsis of the history of Pocock's in rowing at
http://www.pocock.com/history.htm
NO
tired and sore. I can respect them, maybe have a few beers with 'em,
but that's as far as I go....unless they're really hot women :)
Joe
"Gareth G. Price" <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote:
>Coaches you've got to love them. Best things in the world. Then again I'm
>completetly biased!
>
>Gareth
>Memeber of the Love and Appreciate your coach society!
>
>ben <bug...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>news:N_PN5.13683$AM5.2...@news1.nokia.com...
>> yeah, let's stick to the topic !
>> I personally appreciated the initial post very much, since I tend to be
>too
>> unpatient with myself in practise in general and always need someone to
>> help me stick to a certain exercise even if it is not working out yet
>> properly !
>>
>> ben
>>
>> Gareth G. Price wrote in message
>> <973588687.17203.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>> >Well said ben. This has helped me think about some of my girls that I'm
>> >finding very difficult to get concepts over too. Back to Basics I think.
>> >
>> >Gareth G Price
>> >
>> >
>> >ben <bug...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>> >news:rpPN5.15110$oL4.3...@news2.nokia.com...
>> >> If you don't get the point of it then you don't know anything about
>> >> coaching / training .
>> >>
>> >> If you are not interested just skip the post and shut the f¤%& beeeeep
>> &%k
>> >> up !
>> >>
>> >> ben
>> >>
>> >> John Bennett wrote in message <3a07...@pink.one.net.au>...
>> >> >What a lot of crap.
>> >> >Who the hell is interested in this?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
To get in contact with me via email, please remove the NOSPAM from the email address.
Gareth Wynn
crew and tell them I'll give them extra erg tests if they don't join.
This is the way to get good results isn't it??! ;-)
<john__...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u9aa1$k13$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <973591367.18204.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Gareth G. Price" <gareth...@emis.co.uk> wrote:
> > Coaches you've got to love them. Best things in the world. Then
> again I'm completetly biased!
> > Gareth
NO
>In article <3A07CAF4...@atm.ox.ac.uk>,
>Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>John Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> What a lot of crap.
>>> Who the hell is interested in this?
>>
>>You're new around here, aren't you?
>
>Yeah, didn't you know that this news group is about bass fishing
>only...
>
>Tim
>
bass fishing? I thought this was the ng for fly fishing! I guess I
won't be able to get any advice for fly technique here...
Joe
Rob Bristow
Cheers
Rob
"Walter Martindale" <wmar...@pop.telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3A0754BC...@pop.telusplanet.net...
> Hi Mike,
<snip>
Tim Granger
Joe Tynan <NO SPAMa...@indirect.com> wrote:
>tj...@stripos1.cl.cam.ac.uk (Tim Granger) wrote:
>
>>In article <3A07CAF4...@atm.ox.ac.uk>,
>>Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>John Bennett wrote:
>>>
>>>> What a lot of crap.
>>>> Who the hell is interested in this?
>>>
>>>You're new around here, aren't you?
>>
>>Yeah, didn't you know that this news group is about bass fishing
>>only...
>>
>>Tim
>>
>bass fishing? I thought this was the ng for fly fishing! I guess I
>won't be able to get any advice for fly technique here...
Go to deja news and search for bass fishing on rec.sport.rowing, I think
it was the last major diversion caused off topic...
Tim
Walter Martindale
the West Island, aren't we?
W
Rob Bristow
> We're talking about Nick Suess(sp?) of Perth, a POM living for a long time
in
> the West Island, aren't we?
> W
>
> Rob Bristow wrote:
>
Walter Martindale
Australia in the first place? 8-) (my dad was a POM but he moved to Canuck land
by choice)
Rob Bristow wrote:
> yep
> Rob
> "Walter Martindale" <wmar...@pop.telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> news:3A096880...@pop.telusplanet.net...
> > We're talking about Nick Suess(sp?) of Perth, a POM living for a long time
> in
> > the West Island, aren't we?
> > W
> >
> > Rob Bristow wrote:
> >
Ronan Egan
> To those with an interest in the history of the sport, this is a
> remarkably similar argument to the century-old "orthodoxy versus
> Fairbairnism" debate.
>
>
deserves a mention also.
Ronan