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Dynamic Ergs - Which One?
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Steve
Nov 26, 2012, 7:41:55 AM11/26/12
to
Hello,
As we come to that time of year where we spend perhaps more time labouring
on our ergometers, I was pondering the question of purchasing one for
myself.
After speaking to a few people, I've considered opting for a dynamic
ergometer. Rowperfect was the first to make such a machine I believe, but I
understand that Concept 2 have now also produced a dynamic model.
So, I was wondering which one is best? Or, at least what the pro's and cons
are of each - if any.
Anyway, any opinions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
--
Regards
Steve
As we come to that time of year where we spend perhaps more time labouring
on our ergometers, I was pondering the question of purchasing one for
myself.
After speaking to a few people, I've considered opting for a dynamic
ergometer. Rowperfect was the first to make such a machine I believe, but I
understand that Concept 2 have now also produced a dynamic model.
So, I was wondering which one is best? Or, at least what the pro's and cons
are of each - if any.
Anyway, any opinions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
--
Regards
Steve
davie...@gmail.com
Nov 26, 2012, 8:35:56 AM11/26/12
to Steve
1. Rowperfect 3
2. Oartec Slider
3. Standard C2 on slides
4. Dynamic C2
But you need to try them for yourself, esp if spending your own cash.
James HS
Nov 26, 2012, 9:58:55 AM11/26/12
to Steve
I have not done a comparison - only of fixed Vs Dynamic C2 - both of which I own.
If I had the money I would have considered a rowperfect -from what I have read the movement is more scull like.
If the slider had the same monitor as the C2 I would have strongly considered that.
I had a fixed head C2 and so tried the slides, and did not get on with them because of space - and so purchased a C2 dynamic to sit next to my Model C.
I have just fitted a core perform seat.
So I like it more than the model C because it allows me to work at much higher rates and feels (a bit) more like a single. - With the core perform, much more like a single!
A C2 on slides lets you still use the Cbreeze, which I miss.
Oartec slider looks interesting and is a compact design - a lower 2nd hand market.
So despite the fact that I probably agree with the list order, the C2 was what I purchased and am making work for me :)
I don't think it is as bad as vhs/betamax, but I live to be on the water and there is no replacement (for me) of that!
James
If I had the money I would have considered a rowperfect -from what I have read the movement is more scull like.
If the slider had the same monitor as the C2 I would have strongly considered that.
I had a fixed head C2 and so tried the slides, and did not get on with them because of space - and so purchased a C2 dynamic to sit next to my Model C.
I have just fitted a core perform seat.
So I like it more than the model C because it allows me to work at much higher rates and feels (a bit) more like a single. - With the core perform, much more like a single!
A C2 on slides lets you still use the Cbreeze, which I miss.
Oartec slider looks interesting and is a compact design - a lower 2nd hand market.
So despite the fact that I probably agree with the list order, the C2 was what I purchased and am making work for me :)
I don't think it is as bad as vhs/betamax, but I live to be on the water and there is no replacement (for me) of that!
James
johnf...@gmail.com
Nov 26, 2012, 1:21:06 PM11/26/12
to Steve
I have a lot of experience with the C2, C2 on slides, and the C2 Dynamic. Of these three, I much prefer the C2 Dynamic. I have no experience with the RowPerfect or anything else so can't comment there.
I like the C2 Dynamic because it requires at least a modicum of skill and feels a bit like being on the water. The C2 on slides feels a bit heavier than the Dynamic, I think it's noisier than the Dynamic, it takes up nearly twice the length (11 feet), it costs the same as the Dynamic (here), and I was constantly stubbing my toes on the sharp-ish rails.
Unanticipated advantage with any of the dynamic types (the C2 Dynamic, RowPerfect, and C2 on slides) is that your body stays in one place. So you can target fans on that spot to keep yourself cool(er), and it's easier to focus on a TV screen (I watch TV series and rowing DVD's during long sessions) if you're not moving back and forth as much.
I like the C2 Dynamic because it requires at least a modicum of skill and feels a bit like being on the water. The C2 on slides feels a bit heavier than the Dynamic, I think it's noisier than the Dynamic, it takes up nearly twice the length (11 feet), it costs the same as the Dynamic (here), and I was constantly stubbing my toes on the sharp-ish rails.
Unanticipated advantage with any of the dynamic types (the C2 Dynamic, RowPerfect, and C2 on slides) is that your body stays in one place. So you can target fans on that spot to keep yourself cool(er), and it's easier to focus on a TV screen (I watch TV series and rowing DVD's during long sessions) if you're not moving back and forth as much.
krattie
Nov 29, 2012, 11:53:32 AM11/29/12
to
Zeebee
Nov 29, 2012, 2:35:28 PM11/29/12
to
On Nov 29, 5:53 pm, krattie <rpmuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a Rowperfect 3 which gives a much better feel of a rowing stroke than the fixed head C2. There is a lot more bite in the early part of the drive. It has a wobbly seat for balancing practice, but then again the seat does not move a lot during the stroke. The interface is pretty comprehensive, but you need to hook up a PC (no Apple or iPad version yet: hint). I like the options in the interface such as stroke length and showing the power curve in real time (not a lot of curve in my case). The bad news is that the machine has a very home made feel to it. Mine is one of the first ones so perhpas the production values have gone up but we are not talking Carl Douglas handmade quality here. You might try a Waterrower which also has a bit more catch bite
And you consider this "catch bite" as a good thing?
> I have a Rowperfect 3 which gives a much better feel of a rowing stroke than the fixed head C2. There is a lot more bite in the early part of the drive. It has a wobbly seat for balancing practice, but then again the seat does not move a lot during the stroke. The interface is pretty comprehensive, but you need to hook up a PC (no Apple or iPad version yet: hint). I like the options in the interface such as stroke length and showing the power curve in real time (not a lot of curve in my case). The bad news is that the machine has a very home made feel to it. Mine is one of the first ones so perhpas the production values have gone up but we are not talking Carl Douglas handmade quality here. You might try a Waterrower which also has a bit more catch bite
--
Yours Virtually, Zibi
Jim Dwyer
Nov 29, 2012, 7:34:24 PM11/29/12
to
I made this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JCKl8d6MzQ&list=UUDZvlElEQq-6G4x6jENHHKQ&index=27&feature=plcp
Jim
"Steve" wrote in message
news:67CdnSapjdUH_i7N...@brightview.co.uk...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JCKl8d6MzQ&list=UUDZvlElEQq-6G4x6jENHHKQ&index=27&feature=plcp
Jim
"Steve" wrote in message
news:67CdnSapjdUH_i7N...@brightview.co.uk...
Charles Carroll
Dec 1, 2012, 2:32:09 PM12/1/12
to
John,
Yours is not the first report I have heard that a C2 Dynamic Erg “requires
at least a modicum of skill and feels a bit like being on the water.” These
seem to be good reasons for retiring my Old model C on slides (with
CorePerform seat).
But every time I start to reach for the phone to place an order I stumble
across one concern that remains unsettled. Maybe you are the man to settle
it.
I have been trying to teach myself to draw my shell underneath me during the
slide. To this end I have been practicing on the erg. I am using is a Pause
Drill after the crossover when I have most of my forward angle. At the pause
I try to sit very still. Then using mostly my heels and my hamstrings I try
to draw the flywheel to me without moving. Of course the erg, because it is
on slides, moves underneath me.
I have been pleased with the results. I have gotten to a point where I
hardly move at all. And I can report that I have even been able to duplicate
this movement with my shell. Now it seems to be only a matter of practice
before the movement becomes second nature.
So now comes the question. Can I duplicate this movement on a C2 Dynamic?
From the videos I have seen of the C2 Dynamic (or a RowPerfect for that
matter) it is clear that the erg itself is stationary. So clearly you cannot
draw the erg underneath you.
But you do draw the stretcher to you, and in a shell the stretcher is fixed
to the boat, so I suppose you can make the case that you are drawing the
boat underneath you. Or would it be more accurate to say that you produce
the illusion that you are drawing a boat underneath you?
I would be curious to hear any comments you may have about this …
Cordially,
Charles
Ps. I never replied to your post a few months ago about my niece. It turns
out that I have met her coach, Sandy Armstrong. I had no idea Sandy was one
of the National Team coaches. Goes to show you how out of the loop I am. But
in any event I thought you might enjoy knowing that my niece has signed a
letter of intent to Dartmouth.
Yours is not the first report I have heard that a C2 Dynamic Erg “requires
at least a modicum of skill and feels a bit like being on the water.” These
seem to be good reasons for retiring my Old model C on slides (with
CorePerform seat).
But every time I start to reach for the phone to place an order I stumble
across one concern that remains unsettled. Maybe you are the man to settle
it.
I have been trying to teach myself to draw my shell underneath me during the
slide. To this end I have been practicing on the erg. I am using is a Pause
Drill after the crossover when I have most of my forward angle. At the pause
I try to sit very still. Then using mostly my heels and my hamstrings I try
to draw the flywheel to me without moving. Of course the erg, because it is
on slides, moves underneath me.
I have been pleased with the results. I have gotten to a point where I
hardly move at all. And I can report that I have even been able to duplicate
this movement with my shell. Now it seems to be only a matter of practice
before the movement becomes second nature.
So now comes the question. Can I duplicate this movement on a C2 Dynamic?
From the videos I have seen of the C2 Dynamic (or a RowPerfect for that
matter) it is clear that the erg itself is stationary. So clearly you cannot
draw the erg underneath you.
But you do draw the stretcher to you, and in a shell the stretcher is fixed
to the boat, so I suppose you can make the case that you are drawing the
boat underneath you. Or would it be more accurate to say that you produce
the illusion that you are drawing a boat underneath you?
I would be curious to hear any comments you may have about this …
Cordially,
Charles
Ps. I never replied to your post a few months ago about my niece. It turns
out that I have met her coach, Sandy Armstrong. I had no idea Sandy was one
of the National Team coaches. Goes to show you how out of the loop I am. But
in any event I thought you might enjoy knowing that my niece has signed a
letter of intent to Dartmouth.
johnf...@gmail.com
Dec 2, 2012, 2:00:14 PM12/2/12
to
Charles, unfortunately I can't answer your question definitively. I'm on an extended trip and so can't try your pause and draw on my Dynamic at home.
The main functional differences between a D on slides and a Dynamic seem to be:
(a) The mass moving to and fro. On a D with slides, the D moves, and it weighs 57 lbs. With the Dynamic, only the footstretcher moves very much, and I think I recall reading somewhere that it weighs about 30 lbs. C2 says: "The Dynamic offers a feeling of rowing in a lightweight shell because only the foot carriage is moving. This is consistent with a boat where the footstretcher moves relative to the water. The Model D on Slides is more like rowing in a heavy boat, due to the movement of the entire mass of the machine."
(b) The return force on the handle. C2 says "The design of the Dynamic Indoor Rower has allowed us to reduce the handle return tension significantly compared to our Model D and E. Handle return tension, inherent in erg rowing, is not something experienced in the boat, so we view this lower tension as a positive feature."
If anything it seems as though these differences would make it easier to pause and draw as you do.
I'm not sure how noticeable these differences would be. The mass difference is a factor of only about 2; the slides reduce the moving mas by a factor of about 3 (for guys).
For me a major plus of the Dynamic is its smaller footprint, about half the length of a D on slides: 76" vs 136".
The main functional differences between a D on slides and a Dynamic seem to be:
(a) The mass moving to and fro. On a D with slides, the D moves, and it weighs 57 lbs. With the Dynamic, only the footstretcher moves very much, and I think I recall reading somewhere that it weighs about 30 lbs. C2 says: "The Dynamic offers a feeling of rowing in a lightweight shell because only the foot carriage is moving. This is consistent with a boat where the footstretcher moves relative to the water. The Model D on Slides is more like rowing in a heavy boat, due to the movement of the entire mass of the machine."
(b) The return force on the handle. C2 says "The design of the Dynamic Indoor Rower has allowed us to reduce the handle return tension significantly compared to our Model D and E. Handle return tension, inherent in erg rowing, is not something experienced in the boat, so we view this lower tension as a positive feature."
If anything it seems as though these differences would make it easier to pause and draw as you do.
I'm not sure how noticeable these differences would be. The mass difference is a factor of only about 2; the slides reduce the moving mas by a factor of about 3 (for guys).
For me a major plus of the Dynamic is its smaller footprint, about half the length of a D on slides: 76" vs 136".
s...@ku.edu
Dec 3, 2012, 9:17:33 AM12/3/12
to
johnf...@gmail.com
Dec 3, 2012, 11:49:19 AM12/3/12
to
I think you will find that you get better connection as you use it more. It took me a while to adapt to the D on sliders, and then I went through a similar learning phase with the Dynamic. This might translate to better connection in your 1x - or maybe not.
C2 suggests that you can increase the tension on the bungee cord if you want the Dynamic to "feel more like an erg".
Personally I don't expect an erg to replicate the feeling of being in a 1x. All I want from it is fitness training focused on the muscle groups and movements involved in sculling. Any "technique" training I hope to get from it is limited to posture and sequencing of body motions. After all, almost any erg on the market is closer to sculling than say indoor running, bicycling, ellipticals, swimming (all of which can be useful cross-training, however).
IOW, I think we're talking about small differences here. Ergs are closer than anything else to on-water training yet none incorporates all the nuances of sculling, it's just that some are slightly closer in some respects than others. The Oartec Simulator, for example, gives the two-handle experience of sculling (which none of the others do) but it is a static erg.
C2 suggests that you can increase the tension on the bungee cord if you want the Dynamic to "feel more like an erg".
Personally I don't expect an erg to replicate the feeling of being in a 1x. All I want from it is fitness training focused on the muscle groups and movements involved in sculling. Any "technique" training I hope to get from it is limited to posture and sequencing of body motions. After all, almost any erg on the market is closer to sculling than say indoor running, bicycling, ellipticals, swimming (all of which can be useful cross-training, however).
IOW, I think we're talking about small differences here. Ergs are closer than anything else to on-water training yet none incorporates all the nuances of sculling, it's just that some are slightly closer in some respects than others. The Oartec Simulator, for example, gives the two-handle experience of sculling (which none of the others do) but it is a static erg.
s...@ku.edu
Dec 3, 2012, 12:35:29 PM12/3/12
to
Carl
Dec 3, 2012, 2:31:50 PM12/3/12
to
simulator of the full dynamics of the sculling action, although still a
chain-puller machine. And its moving mass was much closer to that of a
boat - which is one prerequisite for any dynamic simulation.
It also had the first power & force curve displays, and as a simulator
it led the way in every respect at that time (& perhaps still does).
It was, for instance, a good enough simulator for Frans Goebel, the
Dutch LWt 1x, to use it in preference to on-water training on the
confined & crowded Bled regatta course when he became World Champion -
he found it a good way to avoid the collision hazards without losing the
necessary sense of being afloat.
Yes, there are drawbacks to all ergs (chain tension is one), but many
advantages to a proper simulator such as RP. When we were marketing it
in the UK, back in its early days, we had any number of rowers telling
us how much they liked using it & how realistic it felt, but then saying
they wouldn't use it because all squad assessments were done on C-II
static machines. That was 20 years ago, and provides yet another
example of the blinkered thinking which continues to hold back progress
in rowing. It was also around the time that Thomas Lange, the man who
could never score high on a static erg, became world HWt 1x champion.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglas.co.uk & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells
s...@ku.edu
Dec 3, 2012, 5:34:36 PM12/3/12
to
On Monday, December 3, 2012 1:31:50 PM UTC-6, Carl wrote:
I would love to try the RP, but they are rare in US boathouses and I've never seen them demo'ed at major US regattas. They are also expensive: ~40% the cost of a new CD-X 1x. SMM
James HS
Dec 4, 2012, 2:33:59 AM12/4/12
to
I need to generate a faster, smoother drive with a bettter sequence to get the power into the handle and footplate.
There is almost no draw on the handle from the "chain".
The plate is a bit light to represent a single's inertia, but you can definitely draw it towards you.
I have recently installed the core perform on it and can seriously feel the difference.
I think the differences between a dynamic and a c2 on slides is less than dynamic & static, more one of convenience.
I feel i have to be much more sprightly on the dynamic, which helps me scull. For a large boat rower i am not sure the difference is worth it, except for aussie concerns with static & back strain.
James
s...@ku.edu
Dec 4, 2012, 8:21:22 AM12/4/12
to
Zeebee
Dec 4, 2012, 8:58:04 AM12/4/12
to
On Dec 4, 8:33 am, James HS <jholmessie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have now completed 1.3 million metres on the dynamic and it does have less of a feel of connection at the begning of the leg drive, and that is the point!
>
Finally at last! Somebody with a real experience of a subject, not
>
> I have now completed 1.3 million metres on the dynamic and it does have less of a feel of connection at the begning of the leg drive, and that is the point!
>
only repeating buzzwords from advertizing materials.
Well, "less connection at the beginning of a drive", what does it mean
in practice? It means one is literally forced to open upper body at
the catch. Please review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_third_law
if in doubt.
Now, how about a finish of the drive?
It is winter now, so we have to close our eyes and imagine sitting in
a boat. Legs straight, we row/scull arms only. Or arms and torso, if
you wish. As soon as we apply any power into oars, we feel a push
coming through a footstretcher and our body together with a boat is
send forward, toward a finish line. Right?
How it looks or feels on a stationary erg? There's not much of "push"
from the footstretcher, but at least we have a firm support. We can
row arms only, or arms&torso no problem, and we can apply power, as
much as we want.
Next, C2 on sliders. When we try to row arms only, the footstretchr
kind of gives in, there's not much of a support. It is possible to
apply some power but it is not really comfortable. Especially
arms&torso. If someone is not skillfull enough then the whole system
moves "sternward" until bungee cords stretch and stop it.
Now, how it is on a C2 Dynamic erg?
Those with access to the C2 Dynamic, please tell us how it feels. How
it feels at the end of a normal drive, and how it feels to row arms
only?
For those who do not have the Dynamic around, please look up these two
videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkgjEwSoX9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wv9hWgZJLI
or any other video of rowing on a C2 Dynamic, there's plenty of them
on Youtube.
Especially, take a note what happens with a seat and a footstretcher
in a final phase of the drive.
Does it look like a powerfull drive? Do they look comortable?
--
Yours Virtually, Zibi
johnf...@gmail.com
Dec 4, 2012, 3:46:55 PM12/4/12
to
James HS, was it easy to install the CorePerform seat on it? I contacted CorePerform and they were vague about whether I could put one on a C2 Dynamic.
On a related front, I find the C2 seat somewhat uncomfortable, at least after an hour on it, even with seat pads. Has anybody had any luck fitting a Dreher seat onto a C2 Dynamic or a CorePerform???
As for the RowPerfect 3, no price for it is listed on the Durham Boat Company site. The US price for a C2 Dynamic is $1250. Anybody know what it sells for in the US? I was a bit dismayed to see that the RP3 does not include a display, one must link a computer to it via a USB cable. And apparently only Windows software is available (I use Mac, or an iPad app would be handy). Personally all I need is watts, time, stroke rate, and heart rate. So all this software would provide far more data than I want or need.
Incidentally, my GF points out that it should be "RowPerfectly".
Zibi, perhaps I didn't make it clear that I have had my Dynamic for about 2 years I think, mine is one of the first batch made. I don't bother to track how many meters I have on it and can't check from here. Certainly some hundreds of thousands of meters, but probably less than a million. I certainly don't find that it has screwed up my on-water rowing, but as I said I use it mainly as a fitness tool and don't obsess over minutiae re how closely it replicates on-water rowing.
I quoted C2's posted info because what a manufacturer THINKS (or CLAIMS) they are doing is usually a good starting point to evaluate whether they have succeeded. And because some comments here suggested that the posters hadn't bothered to read C2's posted info. Or watch the videos posted on C2's website:
http://www.concept2cts.com/indoorrowers/dynamic_home.asp
Bryan Volpenheim stroked the US gold medal 8+ in Athens and now coaches the US National Team lightweight men, so his thoughts carry weight for me.
The compact size of the Dynamic is a plus, but I could be perfectly happy on a D with slides or probably an RP3 or an Oartec slider. I'll be on a static D for the next couple of months, and that will just have to do.
On a related front, I find the C2 seat somewhat uncomfortable, at least after an hour on it, even with seat pads. Has anybody had any luck fitting a Dreher seat onto a C2 Dynamic or a CorePerform???
As for the RowPerfect 3, no price for it is listed on the Durham Boat Company site. The US price for a C2 Dynamic is $1250. Anybody know what it sells for in the US? I was a bit dismayed to see that the RP3 does not include a display, one must link a computer to it via a USB cable. And apparently only Windows software is available (I use Mac, or an iPad app would be handy). Personally all I need is watts, time, stroke rate, and heart rate. So all this software would provide far more data than I want or need.
Incidentally, my GF points out that it should be "RowPerfectly".
Zibi, perhaps I didn't make it clear that I have had my Dynamic for about 2 years I think, mine is one of the first batch made. I don't bother to track how many meters I have on it and can't check from here. Certainly some hundreds of thousands of meters, but probably less than a million. I certainly don't find that it has screwed up my on-water rowing, but as I said I use it mainly as a fitness tool and don't obsess over minutiae re how closely it replicates on-water rowing.
I quoted C2's posted info because what a manufacturer THINKS (or CLAIMS) they are doing is usually a good starting point to evaluate whether they have succeeded. And because some comments here suggested that the posters hadn't bothered to read C2's posted info. Or watch the videos posted on C2's website:
http://www.concept2cts.com/indoorrowers/dynamic_home.asp
Bryan Volpenheim stroked the US gold medal 8+ in Athens and now coaches the US National Team lightweight men, so his thoughts carry weight for me.
The compact size of the Dynamic is a plus, but I could be perfectly happy on a D with slides or probably an RP3 or an Oartec slider. I'll be on a static D for the next couple of months, and that will just have to do.
James HS
Dec 5, 2012, 2:19:13 AM12/5/12
to Steve
I use a df of 130 and my weekly diet is 60r20, 8x500r1:30 and 5k with a typical 4k wu and 2k wd.
When i first used the dynamic, boy did i struggle to catch up with the mechanism, then i used to rip it, now i think imhave a fast but accellerating catch and a drive through to the end.
Arms only and then arms plus body is tough ... my wu has 400 arms only then 400 arms plus body and i have to work hard to be smooth so the muscles don't tire.
The core perform was fittet with a trick from Zibi (thanks), where i bouht some longer m5 machine screws, and used m8 nuts to space the seat higher on the carriage .... works fine. You could us washers ... about 6mm.
Nothing feels like a boat. I have used the oartec simulator (sculling handles, fixed head) in a pub rowathon and it felt weird......so the c2 dynamic with core perform currently feels like the best alternative to bobbing up and down on the water!
James
thomas....@googlemail.com
Dec 5, 2012, 12:10:32 PM12/5/12
to Steve
Just to add my own 2 cents, I currently own a rowperfect (original) and have had a couple of go's on the concept 2 dynamic and the Oartec slider and a concept 2 static on sliders, personally I would rank them:
Rowperfect (best)
Oartec Slider
Concept 2 on sliders
Concept 2 Dynamic
To me the concept 2 dynamic is a nice idea but I get none of the muscle feedback that I get when sculling, it just feels too light on the pickup and doesnt feels like it encourages me to rock over and properly connect at the catch and then swing through the middle, more hunch over at the catch and pump the legs without opening out through the stroke. As a side note when I was havng a go on it as well I decided to open it up and go for a full pelt lowest split (for a bit of fun) and without really trying I ended up rating in the high 60's for a good number of strokes. Which just cant be right.
Concept 2 on sliders are ok, I can sort of see what they have tried to do but with the overall weight of the ergo it never really felt right to me when I have used them at the club
The Oartec ive tried a few times and it would be something I would consider TBH, it feels very smooth and does seem to encourge good sculling technique and if I were buying new this would be the ergo I would get just from a pure value point of view
I settled on the rowperfect mostly because the second hand original is the cheapest dynamic around, plus although it may be noisy and look horrendously ugly and have the WORLDS MOST UNCOMFORTABLE SEAT (my poor hamstrings) it simply still is the very best at simulataing how you should row in a boat, making you focus on connecting properly at the catch, rewarding you when you leave the shoulders behind, drive with the legs and open the back at the end of the stroke, and punishing you hard if you dont flow round the back end and rock over to the next stroke. Its tough to get it right at first but it gets you sculling really well, the only thing it can encourage/doesnt do enough to discourage IMO is a late rush into the catch or a dip at the catch, but thats an issue that all ergo's have.
Another feature the Rowperfect has is the PC connection and great force curve software, I use this all the time when on my Rowperfect and its great to not only see the curve but also the estimated splits you would be getting on the water. Also training to Joules per stroke is a much better work indicatior that average split or Watts, since it isnt affected by stroke rate, which means you can easily track your improvement over time no matter what rate your pieces are done at
Rowperfect (best)
Oartec Slider
Concept 2 on sliders
Concept 2 Dynamic
To me the concept 2 dynamic is a nice idea but I get none of the muscle feedback that I get when sculling, it just feels too light on the pickup and doesnt feels like it encourages me to rock over and properly connect at the catch and then swing through the middle, more hunch over at the catch and pump the legs without opening out through the stroke. As a side note when I was havng a go on it as well I decided to open it up and go for a full pelt lowest split (for a bit of fun) and without really trying I ended up rating in the high 60's for a good number of strokes. Which just cant be right.
Concept 2 on sliders are ok, I can sort of see what they have tried to do but with the overall weight of the ergo it never really felt right to me when I have used them at the club
The Oartec ive tried a few times and it would be something I would consider TBH, it feels very smooth and does seem to encourge good sculling technique and if I were buying new this would be the ergo I would get just from a pure value point of view
I settled on the rowperfect mostly because the second hand original is the cheapest dynamic around, plus although it may be noisy and look horrendously ugly and have the WORLDS MOST UNCOMFORTABLE SEAT (my poor hamstrings) it simply still is the very best at simulataing how you should row in a boat, making you focus on connecting properly at the catch, rewarding you when you leave the shoulders behind, drive with the legs and open the back at the end of the stroke, and punishing you hard if you dont flow round the back end and rock over to the next stroke. Its tough to get it right at first but it gets you sculling really well, the only thing it can encourage/doesnt do enough to discourage IMO is a late rush into the catch or a dip at the catch, but thats an issue that all ergo's have.
Another feature the Rowperfect has is the PC connection and great force curve software, I use this all the time when on my Rowperfect and its great to not only see the curve but also the estimated splits you would be getting on the water. Also training to Joules per stroke is a much better work indicatior that average split or Watts, since it isnt affected by stroke rate, which means you can easily track your improvement over time no matter what rate your pieces are done at
wmar...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2012, 2:03:18 PM12/8/12
to Steve
I believe the more recent versions have a better built/designed flywheel...
Cheers,
W
nomail
Dec 11, 2012, 3:36:37 AM12/11/12
to
On 05.12.2012 08:19, James HS wrote:
Interesting - I use a BioRower (used and older model - see BioRower.com)
or a good old Concept model D on slides which I have kept. Anything in
between doesn't make much sense to me.
The main advantage of the BioRower is that you have real oar handles and
it mimics a boat much more at the catch, at the finish, and not to
forget on the recovery. Will be perfect when the BioRower Swingframe
will have been doen for the S1.
Interesting - I use a BioRower (used and older model - see BioRower.com)
or a good old Concept model D on slides which I have kept. Anything in
between doesn't make much sense to me.
The main advantage of the BioRower is that you have real oar handles and
it mimics a boat much more at the catch, at the finish, and not to
forget on the recovery. Will be perfect when the BioRower Swingframe
will have been doen for the S1.
Rebecca Caroe
Dec 11, 2012, 11:53:51 PM12/11/12
to Charles Carroll
>
> I have been trying to teach myself to draw my shell underneath me during the
>
> slide. To this end I have been practicing on the erg. I am using is a Pause
>
> Drill after the crossover when I have most of my forward angle. At the pause
>
> I try to sit very still. Then using mostly my heels and my hamstrings I try
>
> to draw the flywheel to me without moving. Of course the erg, because it is
>
> on slides, moves underneath me.
>
>
>
> I have been pleased with the results. I have gotten to a point where I
>
> hardly move at all. And I can report that I have even been able to duplicate
>
> this movement with my shell. Now it seems to be only a matter of practice
>
> before the movement becomes second nature.
>
>
>
> So now comes the question. Can I duplicate this movement on a C2 Dynamic?
>
>
I'm going to ask Carlos Dinares to contact you and see if he can lend you a Rowperfect to try out because i am so sure you'll be blown away by the impact of the skill [and the joules measure Thomas mentions].
Rebecca
thomas....@googlemail.com
Dec 13, 2012, 8:33:35 AM12/13/12
to Charles Carroll
> > Charles - on a Rowperfect you CAN replicate this movement...
I was going to say, im sure when im training on the rowperfect I am trying to replicate this "feel" of the flywheel/boat gliding towards me off the finish, I also get the feeling of applying presure against the footplate as the flywheel is close to the catch so it slows before I would raise my hands to the catch, another excercise that its useful to do as it stops the "last 1/3 rush" that a lot of people seem to do on a rowperfect if unchecked
I was going to say, im sure when im training on the rowperfect I am trying to replicate this "feel" of the flywheel/boat gliding towards me off the finish, I also get the feeling of applying presure against the footplate as the flywheel is close to the catch so it slows before I would raise my hands to the catch, another excercise that its useful to do as it stops the "last 1/3 rush" that a lot of people seem to do on a rowperfect if unchecked
Carl
Dec 13, 2012, 10:44:58 AM12/13/12
to
On 13/12/2012 13:33, thomas....@googlemail.com wrote:
>>> Charles - on a Rowperfect you CAN replicate this movement...
>
> I was going to say, im sure when im training on the rowperfect I am trying to replicate this "feel" of the flywheel/boat gliding towards me off the finish, I also get the feeling of applying presure against the footplate as the flywheel is close to the catch so it slows before I would raise my hands to the catch, another excercise that its useful to do as it stops the "last 1/3 rush" that a lot of people seem to do on a rowperfect if unchecked
>
Thomas -
>>> Charles - on a Rowperfect you CAN replicate this movement...
>
> I was going to say, im sure when im training on the rowperfect I am trying to replicate this "feel" of the flywheel/boat gliding towards me off the finish, I also get the feeling of applying presure against the footplate as the flywheel is close to the catch so it slows before I would raise my hands to the catch, another excercise that its useful to do as it stops the "last 1/3 rush" that a lot of people seem to do on a rowperfect if unchecked
>
I hope you realise that the boat never "glides towards" you during the
recovery?
It may seem so, but in reality it comes to you only because you make it
do so. All of the drag is on the hull of the boat, pulling it
sternwards away from you, while almost all of the inertia is in
yourself, carrying on regardless as Newton told is it would. So when
you appear to move towards the stretcher what actually happens is that
you pull the stretcher towards you by applying tension through the legs
to bring your feet, plus boat, forwards. Otherwise you'd just stay, sat
there like lemon, at backstops.
Now the supposed RP rush:
If you visibly slow over the last 1/3 before the catch, you'll do that
by pressing on your feet. What does that do? It pushes your heavy mass
against the boat's much lighter mass. And what does that do to the run
on the boat? It checks it.
The trick which good scullers use, often without knowing it, is to take
the catch without your proposed protracted relative deceleration of
sculler WRT boat. They realise the relative lightness of the boat & the
need to pick it up with the least possible check. So their blades are
in & working without all the "gathering for the catch" stuff we hear
being coached in sweep rowing.
I'm not criticising what you are saying. The problem is the orthodox
belief system behind it, & to which we have all at some time been
coached. It remains blissfully unaware that the boat is always the
junior partner in the crew/boat combo, more like a somewhat heavy pair
of shoes than an obstacle or heavy mass to be accelerated. And the
other problem is that most rowers spend most of their erging time on
static ergs: on these machines the mass ratio between man & machine is
near-infinitely different to that of man & boat, so you can't row them
with sensitivity towards the inertial interactions between yourself &
the erg.
Whereas with a boat or a good dynamic erg the motion of the body's C of
G hardly departs from steady state, constant velocity (zero on an erg,
or average boat speed when wet rowing), with a fixed erg only the body
moves, so we get accustomed to thinking in terms of large bodily
movements & accelerations. And that gets translated into the ways we
row in boats, treating the boat like something we can use to accelerate
& decelerate our own motion, not realising the impossibility of doing
this in a boat.
If that's unclear, please ask for a better explanation & I'll do my best.
johnf...@gmail.com
Dec 13, 2012, 12:37:57 PM12/13/12
to
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:44:58 AM UTC-6, Carl wrote:
"So when you appear to move towards the stretcher what actually happens is that
you pull the stretcher towards you by applying tension through the legs
to bring your feet, plus boat, forwards."
Hmmm, would this mean that the force your legs must generate on the recovery is the sum of the force needed to accelerate the 14kg mass of the boat (+ some portion of the weight of the oars) PLUS the drag force of water on the hull surface??
"So when you appear to move towards the stretcher what actually happens is that
you pull the stretcher towards you by applying tension through the legs
to bring your feet, plus boat, forwards."
Does this mean that a dynamic erg would feel more "boat-like", at least on the recovery, if its moving mass were somewhat greater than 14kg?? If so, how much greater than 14kg??
Carl
Dec 13, 2012, 2:07:59 PM12/13/12
to
First, though: you aren't actually accelerating the boat when your feet
pull it under you &, thereby, pull the front-stops toward to. All
you're doing is reducing its rate of drag-induced deceleration.
And the entire crew/boat system continues dissipating energy into the
water through the fluid drag acting on the hull.
I don't think a greater mass than boat + oars is needed to enhance the
simulation but no one should suppose that even Rowperfect, good as it
is, is a perfect simulator of rowing dynamics. That's why there are
people like me to make real boats for real rowers & scullers to use on
real water.
Nor, BTW, do I think we are yet at the end of the road for really good
rowing simulators.
robin_d...@hotmail.com
Dec 14, 2012, 4:08:10 AM12/14/12
to
In that case Carl - and this may sound like a rather silly question - does this mean that the liquid-containing flywheels of non-C2 ergometers are actually hampered in terms of their fidelity to the "feel" relative to a real-life situation because water is the wrong fluid to use in this circumstance owing to the relative masses of man and boat / man and dynamic erg / man and static erg + the earth? For that matter, would there be any way that this fidelity could be enhanced by increasing the working surface area of the inside of the flywheel to match that of the boat somehow, while having a moving flywheel mass similar in weight to the boat so that the momentum remains the same? Of course, this is all arm waving as I assume the volumes and surface areas of the fluid flywheels were decided based on some aspect of relative proportions to those of a boat to give something approximating to "real feel", although clearly they've still not got it quite right. Plus you'd need a rather large piece of kit to match the surface area of a boat so it wouldn't be something you could set up easily in your spare room.
Would there be a rationale using a similar structure, but instead replacing water with another liquid with slightly different characteristics of surface tension or viscosity - such as a silicone oil of some description - or conversely, having an electro-viscous fluid present that within which one could modulate the viscosity until it gave something more realistic in terms of feel at the output end of the equipment in terms of simulation of "drag" in the real system? I am thinking, of course, of the situation in bicycle turbo trainers where some manufacturers offer several different types of flywheel system (air, magnetic, fluid etc) bolted onto the same basic framework depending on what price point you decide to pay.
Carl
Dec 14, 2012, 6:52:20 AM12/14/12
to
flattery).
Some of the remaining problems with dynamic ergs as simulators relate to:
1. Inelasticity of the connection to the power-absorption system
2. Inability to simulate the loss-making "slip/stall" processes between
blade & water
3. Inability to match the implicit continuously variable gearing of the
real stroke
4. Poor/absent modelling of the drag & inertial effects on "boat" & crew
That said, good dynamic ergs are far better rowing simulators than any
fixed erg can be.
Sarah Harbour
Dec 14, 2012, 2:26:40 PM12/14/12
to
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:44:58 PM UTC, Carl wrote:
<snip>
Interestingly, I watched this clip by Drew Ginn the other day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1n-G91HGegQ
Similar thoughts!
Sarah
<snip>
>
>
> Now the supposed RP rush:
>
>
>
> If you visibly slow over the last 1/3 before the catch, you'll do that
>
> by pressing on your feet. What does that do? It pushes your heavy mass
>
> against the boat's much lighter mass. And what does that do to the run
>
> on the boat? It checks it.
>
>
>
> The trick which good scullers use, often without knowing it, is to take
>
> the catch without your proposed protracted relative deceleration of
>
> sculler WRT boat. They realise the relative lightness of the boat & the
>
> need to pick it up with the least possible check. So their blades are
>
> in & working without all the "gathering for the catch" stuff we hear
>
> being coached in sweep rowing.
<snip>
>
> Now the supposed RP rush:
>
>
>
> If you visibly slow over the last 1/3 before the catch, you'll do that
>
> by pressing on your feet. What does that do? It pushes your heavy mass
>
> against the boat's much lighter mass. And what does that do to the run
>
> on the boat? It checks it.
>
>
>
> The trick which good scullers use, often without knowing it, is to take
>
> the catch without your proposed protracted relative deceleration of
>
> sculler WRT boat. They realise the relative lightness of the boat & the
>
> need to pick it up with the least possible check. So their blades are
>
> in & working without all the "gathering for the catch" stuff we hear
>
> being coached in sweep rowing.
Interestingly, I watched this clip by Drew Ginn the other day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1n-G91HGegQ
Similar thoughts!
Sarah
Carl
Dec 14, 2012, 3:22:35 PM12/14/12
to
most of the last 40 years.
As Ginn says, fast hands around the finish is for show (he used a
blunter word). Let everything run at the finish, don't try to be fast
away, only to slow down over front-stops.
Watch Mahe Drysdale for the same, as he says, & so many other good scullers.
And you have to be quick into the catch - just as they are.
That's a great dismantling of so much orthodox thinking! And you can
compare the Aussies' relaxed finishes with the Kiwis' fast turns at
around 12 minutes.
Oddly enough, the next video in that set underlines another lesson I'd
hope more rowers would take on board at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=VnUaPD-bDZ4&NR=1
See how shallow their blades are? That's scooping the surface instead
of engaging solid water, & moves water, not boats. Again, compare with
Drysdale, who digs deep.
Thanks again -
Sarah Harbour
Dec 14, 2012, 3:25:31 PM12/14/12
to
Note like this:
http://www.menshealth.co.uk/video/?click=vid_sr&click=vid_sr#v180284506001
also known as "How to row like a gym rower"...
http://www.menshealth.co.uk/video/?click=vid_sr&click=vid_sr#v180284506001
also known as "How to row like a gym rower"...
davie...@gmail.com
Dec 19, 2012, 8:12:43 AM12/19/12
to
AIUI, NCRA inherited the idea from the lightweight 8 that were world champs in the early 80s. It would be interesting to know whether they got it from anybody else.
Carl
Dec 19, 2012, 10:17:45 AM12/19/12
to
> Interesting that Ginn draws on the lightweights for inspiration. I was fortunate to row (briefly) with the NCRA when Mark Lees was in charge. Patience around the finish was one of the things continuously drummed into us newbies brought up on 'old school' quick hands away. The NCRA crews were very fast and were exactly the sort of people who would ask 'Does it make the boat go fast?'.
>
> AIUI, NCRA inherited the idea from the lightweight 8 that were world champs in the early 80s. It would be interesting to know whether they got it from anybody else.
>
You saw
>
> AIUI, NCRA inherited the idea from the lightweight 8 that were world champs in the early 80s. It would be interesting to know whether they got it from anybody else.
>
Carl
Dec 19, 2012, 10:35:43 AM12/19/12
to
On 19/12/2012 13:12, davie...@gmail.com wrote:
> Interesting that Ginn draws on the lightweights for inspiration. I was fortunate to row (briefly) with the NCRA when Mark Lees was in charge. Patience around the finish was one of the things continuously drummed into us newbies brought up on 'old school' quick hands away. The NCRA crews were very fast and were exactly the sort of people who would ask 'Does it make the boat go fast?'.
>
> AIUI, NCRA inherited the idea from the lightweight 8 that were world champs in the early 80s. It would be interesting to know whether they got it from anybody else.
>
IIRC, you'd see similar relaxed finishes from Australian sculler, Stuart
>
> AIUI, NCRA inherited the idea from the lightweight 8 that were world champs in the early 80s. It would be interesting to know whether they got it from anybody else.
>
Mackenzie - but I can find no film of that great sculler.
ISTR that Krylya Sovetov eights combined hard, well-held finishes with
tigerish catches - again can't find film to confirm.
Generally I think you'll find that great scullers & small-boat rowers,
being less subject to pressures to conform, are the masters of
developing techniques which most facilitate fine performances while
displeasing the pundits. And lightweights, receiving less encouragement
than heavies, must compete for much of their time against bigger rowers
& have every incentive to take a jaundiced view of the style books.
Cheers -
Douglas MacFarlane
Dec 20, 2012, 5:29:48 AM12/20/12
to
In article <W7lAs.693391$nB6.3...@fx21.am4>, Carl <s...@sss.jjj>
wrote:
> On 19/12/2012 13:12, davie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 14, 2012 8:22:35 PM UTC, Carl wrote:
> >> On 14/12/2012 19:26, Sarah Harbour wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:44:58 PM UTC, Carl wrote:
> >>
Good stuff snipped to keep news server happy
Is it perhaps easier for folk in sculls and small boats to try things
out to find what works for them in making the boat go faster. If you are
out in a single sculling beside another boat you can try things and get
almost instant feedback on whether it made the boat go faster or slower.
In a crew boat, particularly a large one, you have to get the whole crew
to understand and agree on the change and all interpret it the same way
to get a proper trial of possible improvement. It's a longer more
complex process to undertake. The feedback in a small boat can be seen
and interpreted much more easily than in a large crew boat so technique
changes can be tried and evaluated much more quickly.
Cheers,
Douglas
wrote:
> On 19/12/2012 13:12, davie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 14, 2012 8:22:35 PM UTC, Carl wrote:
> >> On 14/12/2012 19:26, Sarah Harbour wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:44:58 PM UTC, Carl wrote:
> >>
out to find what works for them in making the boat go faster. If you are
out in a single sculling beside another boat you can try things and get
almost instant feedback on whether it made the boat go faster or slower.
In a crew boat, particularly a large one, you have to get the whole crew
to understand and agree on the change and all interpret it the same way
to get a proper trial of possible improvement. It's a longer more
complex process to undertake. The feedback in a small boat can be seen
and interpreted much more easily than in a large crew boat so technique
changes can be tried and evaluated much more quickly.
Cheers,
Douglas
thomas....@googlemail.com
Dec 20, 2012, 6:24:41 AM12/20/12
to
Odd, I did reply to this but it doesnt seem to have gone through, ill try and reply again
> Thomas - I hope you realise that the boat never "glides towards" you during the recovery? It may seem so, but in reality it comes to you only because you make it do so.
Apologies if I caused confusion, when talking about rowing I tend to talk more about the feel rather than the exact science, you are obviously completely correct but I find when I am sculling its all about "feel" and the boat tends to run the best with a "feel" that the boat comes to you rather than pulling the boat to you, describing it in that way to people tends to get the best response
> Now the supposed RP rush: If you visibly slow over the last 1/3 before the catch, you'll do that by pressing on your feet. What does that do? It pushes your heavy mass against the boat's much lighter mass. And what does that do to the run on the boat? It checks it. The trick which good scullers use, often without knowing it, is to take the catch without your proposed protracted relative deceleration of sculler WRT boat.
To clarify what I mean by the RP rush, for want of a better example check out this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIJi1lQQeM4
I say for want of a better example as I am aware that Carlos is an excellent sculler and coach, but he does show a technique that i have seen on a RP quite a lot from people with a quick last moment lunge to the catch, something that you can get away with on a rowperfect but less so in a boat if you dont have the hand speed/control to take the catch and change direction as quickly.
My comments on the pressure on the feet is another "feel" call that I tend to find gives a good response in the boat when made, meaning people dont rush into the catch off or on the water
> Thomas - I hope you realise that the boat never "glides towards" you during the recovery? It may seem so, but in reality it comes to you only because you make it do so.
> Now the supposed RP rush: If you visibly slow over the last 1/3 before the catch, you'll do that by pressing on your feet. What does that do? It pushes your heavy mass against the boat's much lighter mass. And what does that do to the run on the boat? It checks it. The trick which good scullers use, often without knowing it, is to take the catch without your proposed protracted relative deceleration of sculler WRT boat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIJi1lQQeM4
I say for want of a better example as I am aware that Carlos is an excellent sculler and coach, but he does show a technique that i have seen on a RP quite a lot from people with a quick last moment lunge to the catch, something that you can get away with on a rowperfect but less so in a boat if you dont have the hand speed/control to take the catch and change direction as quickly.
My comments on the pressure on the feet is another "feel" call that I tend to find gives a good response in the boat when made, meaning people dont rush into the catch off or on the water
Carl
Dec 20, 2012, 7:50:25 AM12/20/12
to
dynamics of the stroke?
You write as if the rower changes direction at the catch - which makes
it seem like a major process (as it would indeed be). In reality the
rower does not change direction. I know that's a very tough thing to
appreciate when we all come from a background which has drummed into us
that idea that the boat is something heavy & solid we have to work
against. And there can now be few rowers who have not been taught how
to row on static ergs - further reinforcing the view that they are the
lighter part of the dynamic system and have thus to control themselves
on the slide.
In reality the boat is very much the junior partner. You can't "slow
yourself down" on the slide by pressure on the feet, however much it may
seem to be so, since all that does is check the boat.
I might think Carlos Dinares' pre-catch action a little extreme, but
what it will do is to keep the boat moving forwards, not checking.
We must also accept that there really are no difficult or rapid actions
in rowing. Compared with what other athletes must do, everything in
rowing is really slow, but we like to dress it up as being fast and
tricky. FWIW, our fastest hand action in the whole stroke is at the
catch - not in taking the load but the vertically-diagonal motion of
immersing the blade. Nothing else moves as fast at any point in the
stroke. Yet we keep hearing stress put on accelerating the boat at the
catch, despite the fact that at & after the catch every boat actually
_decelerates_, only catching up with the rower later in the stroke.
Having long been told to view the rowing action in such cock-eyed ways,
small wonder we can't understand & find it easy to criticise actions
which may very well be more effective in shell propulsion.
But you, at least are thinking about it, and that's great. Would that
more of us had questioning minds willing tackle these tricky issues
rather than accepting so many unfounded hypotheses about the mechanics
of rowing.
s...@ku.edu
Dec 20, 2012, 8:51:43 AM12/20/12
to
On Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:50:25 AM UTC-6, Carl wrote:
How different Carlos D looks when sculling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg0SktLy4L4
Carl, please explain how lunging the shoulders to the stern near the entry contributes to keeping the boat moving forward.
Steven M-M
Carl, please explain how lunging the shoulders to the stern near the entry contributes to keeping the boat moving forward.
Steven M-M
thomas....@googlemail.com
Dec 20, 2012, 11:59:56 AM12/20/12
to
How different Carlos D looks when sculling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg0SktLy4L4 Carl, please explain how lunging the shoulders to the stern near the entry contributes to keeping the boat moving forward. Steven M-M
Ah thanks for showing that, interestingly I would say the sculling video shows a similar tehncique (a noticable lunge to the catch) just not as pronounced as on the rowperfect.
I think what Carl is saying is that as you slide to the catch the momentum of your body moving will be moving the boat in the opposite direction (Newtons third law) so really moving quickly to the catch would keep the boat "surging" tthrough the water (you can see this if you sit with the blades off the water and just slide to the catch, the boat surges towards the bow)
However where I have to admit I am slightly confused is Carls comment that you dont change direction at the catch? From the point of view of the rower (i.e. everything is in relation to the boat) you slide to the catch, take the catch, and then push back therefore changing direction, and so ideally you want that change in direction to be as quick as possible.
All the speed you take going into the catch has to be dumped to zero before you can start the drive, so surely approaching the catch in a measured or controlled way would be better than at an increasing accleration or lunge? As an extreme example, surely you would be able to start pressing towards the bowball more quickly if you approached the catch at 1mph as opposed to 10mph?
zeke_hoskin
Dec 21, 2012, 4:35:28 PM12/21/12
to
Carl: when you write "you aren't actually accelerating the boat when you pull your feet under you", I suggest you mean that you *shouldn't* accelerate the boat, but you certainly can. Rowing with a liter or so of water in the boat showed me that about a third of the way through recovery, water started surging toward the stern, indicating that I was accelerating the boat. And that's a one-legged sixty-year-old after forty years behind a desk. Some biped in his/her twenties with abs of steel?
Carl
Dec 21, 2012, 5:41:18 PM12/21/12
to
On 21/12/2012 21:35, zeke_hoskin wrote:
>
>
> Carl: when you write "you aren't actually accelerating the boat when you pull your feet under you", I suggest you mean that you *shouldn't* accelerate the boat, but you certainly can. Rowing with a liter or so of water in the boat showed me that about a third of the way through recovery, water started surging toward the stern, indicating that I was accelerating the boat. And that's a one-legged sixty-year-old after forty years behind a desk. Some biped in his/her twenties with abs of steel?
>
We are not in disagreement Zeke. What I actually wrote was:
>
>
> Carl: when you write "you aren't actually accelerating the boat when you pull your feet under you", I suggest you mean that you *shouldn't* accelerate the boat, but you certainly can. Rowing with a liter or so of water in the boat showed me that about a third of the way through recovery, water started surging toward the stern, indicating that I was accelerating the boat. And that's a one-legged sixty-year-old after forty years behind a desk. Some biped in his/her twenties with abs of steel?
>
"at & after the catch every boat actually _decelerates_, only catching
up with the rower later in the stroke". And the sturdy biped does
exactly the same, but probably without your own natural grace & finesse.
Carl
Dec 21, 2012, 5:46:48 PM12/21/12
to
coaching is to get everyone doing the same things. When that happens
the boat goes much better. The risk then is to believe that what the
crew is now doing together is what they should continue to do, whereas
they may need to make many further changes to row well. As you say, the
changes in actions of and the feedback for one person in an eight are
always overwhelmed by the failure of the other 7 to follow suite. So
the evolutionary pressures resulting, in a single, from small changes
well observed are actively suppressed in larger crew shells.
Carl
Dec 21, 2012, 7:11:47 PM12/21/12
to
As you sit in the boat you really think & feel as if you are sliding
back & forth over the boat.
In reality, the boat is sliding back & forth under you.
The accelerations & changes in direction (relative to a constant
velocity reference frame) are nearly all in the boat, not the rower.
Does that help?
Carl
Dec 22, 2012, 8:20:32 AM12/22/12
to
On 20/12/2012 16:59, thomas....@googlemail.com wrote:
> How different Carlos D looks when sculling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg0SktLy4L4 Carl, please explain how lunging the shoulders to the stern near the entry contributes to keeping the boat moving forward. Steven M-M
>
>
> Ah thanks for showing that, interestingly I would say the sculling video shows a similar tehncique (a noticable lunge to the catch) just not as pronounced as on the rowperfect.
>
> I think what Carl is saying is that as you slide to the catch the momentum of your body moving will be moving the boat in the opposite direction (Newtons third law) so really moving quickly to the catch would keep the boat "surging" tthrough the water (you can see this if you sit with the blades off the water and just slide to the catch, the boat surges towards the bow)
>
Sorry that I failed to confirm general agreement with Thomas' comment
>
>
> Ah thanks for showing that, interestingly I would say the sculling video shows a similar tehncique (a noticable lunge to the catch) just not as pronounced as on the rowperfect.
>
> I think what Carl is saying is that as you slide to the catch the momentum of your body moving will be moving the boat in the opposite direction (Newtons third law) so really moving quickly to the catch would keep the boat "surging" tthrough the water (you can see this if you sit with the blades off the water and just slide to the catch, the boat surges towards the bow)
>
there. All I'd add is that, rather than have the boat surge forward,
the objective is to sustain an impulse, transmitted as continued tension
between feet & stretcher, to reduce the deceleration which would
otherwise occur through fluid drag on the hull & any tendency to push
against the stretcher before any load is on the blades.
You can't, I think, fully achieve this but it may well be worth giving
it some thought.
Here we run into the wider presumption that if it doesn't "look right"
it must be wrong, which is taking us back down the usual "style versus
content" argument in which style so often earns the higher acclaim,
while winning with the right content & hence the "wrong" style gets
criticised.
s...@ku.edu
Dec 22, 2012, 9:04:07 AM12/22/12
to
On Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:20:32 AM UTC-6, Carl wrote:
Wonderfully concise description of the tasks of an effective 'recovery.' At least based on my limited understanding, surges of speed based on fast hands away, or pulling the feet, or lunges into the catch generate proportionately greater fluid drag than they generate in hull speed. The net effect is more drag and less run.
John Greenly
Feb 3, 2013, 2:28:26 PM2/3/13
to
May I try my 2 cent's worth of explanation too?
I think part of the difficulty we all have in convincing ourselves of what Carl has so nicely explained is that on the water we have no fixed reference point, the boat is the largest object in view, much larger than we are, and our natural intuition seems to be that it must be going along smoothly and we are moving back and forth on it. But, a shell is a counter-intuitive object, large but absurdly light, and of course it is really doing the back-and-forth, as your demonstration of sliding with the oars off the water shows beautifully. Similarly, you can see this immediately on a dynamic erg. I have an Oartek Slider that I like a lot. The machine slides freely under you, the moving frame is sort of boat-like around you, and you can really watch it on the recovery to work on drawing it toward you smoothly, without lurches. Speaking of ergs, really the thing I don't like about any of them is the handle tension- there is no such force in a boat, you have to pull the boat toward you on the recovery with your legs, whereas on the erg the chain tension does a lot of that for you, puling through your arms. I reduced the tension on my Oartek to a minimum and it's much better. The Oartek, by the way, is a really well-made, smooth, strong machine. Also by the way, I suspect that the sense several have expressed of less heavy engagement at the catch on dynamic versus static ergs comes from the fact that on the static erg you truly are having to decelerate and reverse the motion of your body mass at the catch, and that puts a lot of strain on your legs just then. That's really the whole point of the dynamic erg, it eliminates that unrealistic loading at the catch.
One more detail if I may- if you look at actual measurements, like these in the Rowing Biomechanics newsletter:
http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2012_files/2012RowBiomNews11.pdf
you see that the boat actually is accelerating forward a bit during the recovery. Maybe it helps in understanding this to remember that during the drive, you have left the boat behind you. During the recovery the boat has to catch up with you- you have to pull it forward to get it underneath you again. So the question is, do you do that fast enough to actually speed up the boat, or is it just a matter of keeping it from slowing down as much as it would have if you just sat there at the finish? The answer depends upon stroke rate and speed- at high stroke rate and race pace, you have bring it back to you in such a short time that it needs to actually accelerate to get there soon enough, while with a long, slow recovery it doesn't. The more it does have to accelerate, the larger the sudden decrease in boat speed has to be at the catch- the boat was going faster than you to catch up, but right at the reversal of the catch, you and it are going the same speed again, so it has to slow down to match you- no choice in the matter!
Hope this is some use,
cheers,
John G
On Friday, December 21, 2012 7:11:47 PM UTC-5, Carl wrote:
> On 20/12/2012 16:59, thomas....@googlemail.com wrote:
> > I think what Carl is saying is that as you slide to the catch the momentum of your body moving will be moving the boat in the opposite direction (Newtons third law) so really moving quickly to the catch would keep the boat "surging" tthrough the water (you can see this if you sit with the blades off the water and just slide to the catch, the boat surges towards the bow)
> > However where I have to admit I am slightly confused is Carls comment that you dont change direction at the catch? From the point of view of the rower (i.e. everything is in relation to the boat) you slide to the catch, take the catch, and then push back therefore changing direction, and so ideally you want that change in direction to be as quick as possible
I think part of the difficulty we all have in convincing ourselves of what Carl has so nicely explained is that on the water we have no fixed reference point, the boat is the largest object in view, much larger than we are, and our natural intuition seems to be that it must be going along smoothly and we are moving back and forth on it. But, a shell is a counter-intuitive object, large but absurdly light, and of course it is really doing the back-and-forth, as your demonstration of sliding with the oars off the water shows beautifully. Similarly, you can see this immediately on a dynamic erg. I have an Oartek Slider that I like a lot. The machine slides freely under you, the moving frame is sort of boat-like around you, and you can really watch it on the recovery to work on drawing it toward you smoothly, without lurches. Speaking of ergs, really the thing I don't like about any of them is the handle tension- there is no such force in a boat, you have to pull the boat toward you on the recovery with your legs, whereas on the erg the chain tension does a lot of that for you, puling through your arms. I reduced the tension on my Oartek to a minimum and it's much better. The Oartek, by the way, is a really well-made, smooth, strong machine. Also by the way, I suspect that the sense several have expressed of less heavy engagement at the catch on dynamic versus static ergs comes from the fact that on the static erg you truly are having to decelerate and reverse the motion of your body mass at the catch, and that puts a lot of strain on your legs just then. That's really the whole point of the dynamic erg, it eliminates that unrealistic loading at the catch.
One more detail if I may- if you look at actual measurements, like these in the Rowing Biomechanics newsletter:
http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2012_files/2012RowBiomNews11.pdf
you see that the boat actually is accelerating forward a bit during the recovery. Maybe it helps in understanding this to remember that during the drive, you have left the boat behind you. During the recovery the boat has to catch up with you- you have to pull it forward to get it underneath you again. So the question is, do you do that fast enough to actually speed up the boat, or is it just a matter of keeping it from slowing down as much as it would have if you just sat there at the finish? The answer depends upon stroke rate and speed- at high stroke rate and race pace, you have bring it back to you in such a short time that it needs to actually accelerate to get there soon enough, while with a long, slow recovery it doesn't. The more it does have to accelerate, the larger the sudden decrease in boat speed has to be at the catch- the boat was going faster than you to catch up, but right at the reversal of the catch, you and it are going the same speed again, so it has to slow down to match you- no choice in the matter!
Hope this is some use,
cheers,
John G
On Friday, December 21, 2012 7:11:47 PM UTC-5, Carl wrote:
> On 20/12/2012 16:59, thomas....@googlemail.com wrote:
> > I think what Carl is saying is that as you slide to the catch the momentum of your body moving will be moving the boat in the opposite direction (Newtons third law) so really moving quickly to the catch would keep the boat "surging" tthrough the water (you can see this if you sit with the blades off the water and just slide to the catch, the boat surges towards the bow)
> > However where I have to admit I am slightly confused is Carls comment that you dont change direction at the catch? From the point of view of the rower (i.e. everything is in relation to the boat) you slide to the catch, take the catch, and then push back therefore changing direction, and so ideally you want that change in direction to be as quick as possible
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