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Cramp in forearms

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RobC

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Sep 28, 2008, 2:36:43 PM9/28/08
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I have always suffered from very painful cramp in my forearms when I
scull. I don't get it in sweep oar at all. Normally I can scull
through it, but sometimes it seems to take an age. Basically my
forearms seem to go "solid". I have always been convinced it must be
to do with gripping the end of the blade too tightly, but as a result
I try really carefully not to, to the point of opening my hands on the
recovery in my training to force a looser grip. I get whether I am
doing light or firm pressure and it normally clears after about 20-30
mins rowing. Has anyone got any ideas/suggestions.

Ted van de Weteringe

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Sep 28, 2008, 2:44:31 PM9/28/08
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RobC wrote:
> recovery in my training to force a looser grip. I get whether I am
> doing light or firm pressure and it normally clears after about 20-30
> mins rowing. Has anyone got any ideas/suggestions.

1. At regattas, boat 45 minutes before the start.
2. Carefully check rigging: angles on sleeve/blade and pin, symmetry,
perhaps gearing.
3. Hold the grip in your fingers, hardly touching the hand palm.
4. Relax.

master of rythmn

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Sep 28, 2008, 6:38:32 PM9/28/08
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You probably have the wrong pitch on your blades; either over or under
pitched the constant compensation by your hands generates tension down
your forearms.
To cure the problem do some very slow paddling and consciously
determine whether you are trying to turn the handles towards the stern
or the bow in order to maintain a covered blade. If toward the bow you
are compensating against over pitch. Vice versa for towards the stern.
Adjust the pitch until you are unaware of any necessary compensation.
This should ease the strain on your forearms.
Steve.

wmar...@gmail.com

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Sep 28, 2008, 11:48:46 PM9/28/08
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Warm up well as mentioned by another. Check the rigging on your boat
(or have it checked by someone competent who(m?) you trust.
The way I set singles for people is with rather general - not knowing
any of your dimensions, try (as a startingpoint) 160 cm spread between
pins. make sure the pins are vertical (no lateral pitch, no fore-aft
pitch) or if you have lateral pitch, make sure they are both the same
(usually 1 to 1.5 degrees). Make sure the gates have the same pitch
inserts properly set, and MAKE SURE YOUR BLADES HAVE ZERO PITCH.
Sorry for shouting, but certain vintages of some blades "twist" after
they've been assembled with zero pitch. They usually twist in the
same direction, being made on the same mandrel(s) with the same spin
direction when the carbon is being spun on, so "post production
curing" twists the shafts in the same direction. If your sculls were
made by the big american manufacturer from about 1996 to about 2003,
double check that the pitch measured on the wear plate is still zero.
If it's off by a lot, get new sleeves and wear plates and install them
so they're properly zero pitched. If they're off by a little, a
scraping tool does the trick. If you don't know how to check that the
pitch on a blade is zero, check the Concept 2 website for their oar
pitch tool, or contact Croker on how to check the pitch on their
blades. If it's another manufacturer, I don't know how they're set
up.

I've coached people whose boats were perfectly set for zero pitched
blades, but whose blades weren't zero, until out of frustration I
stuck the blade on a level as spec'd by C2, and stuck a level on the
sleeve - 5 minutes of scraping and all of a sudden the sculling was
easy.
Bye-bye injuries.
Other than that, without seeing you I have no idea how you're
sculling, whether or not your grip is "right" or anything like that...
Hope you can sort it out
Walter

David Jillings

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Sep 29, 2008, 7:21:41 AM9/29/08
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Are you sculling with bent arms?
Depending on the amount of sculling you already do, the answer may be to
scull more/more often. The more you do, the more relaxed you get.

David.

Carl Douglas

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Sep 29, 2008, 8:03:49 AM9/29/08
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From long personal experience of the condition & its remedy, in myself
7 in others, I have to differ on its fundamental cause from the views
already expressed by learned contributors.

For years my sculling was intermittently blighted by this same
condition. I had to get by with finishing races & training sessions
with solid forearms, cramping pain & at 75% pressure. It sure as hell
takes the shine off your sculling!

Then, by great good fortune & through the pulling of strings by a sports
medic then helping my club (Vaughan Thomas), I got to spend an hour with
an orthopaedic surgeon in Derby, UK. He was impressively open about his
ignorance of our sport, but keen to learn if doing so might help him to
help me. We went into the hospital's gym where he asked me to explain &
demonstrate what we rowers did, using an unlikely assortment of
non-rowing equipment (no ergs in those days).

Keeping it short, he discovered that as soon as the load I was pulling
exceeded a certain threshold, the blood flow in my arm ceased. And when
the load was reduced, it returned. So he applied a tourniquet to my
upper arm & asked me what I felt. This generated just the same symptoms
- a hardening of the forearm, coupled with pain & the reduction of
manual dexterity & grip.

He was also able to learn that, if I tensed the arm & shoulder as I
ceased pulling, the circulation was slow to return.

It all became very clear. As the surgeon explained to me, my symptoms
were those of ischaemic cramp - insufficient blood flow to provide
adequate oxygenation & the removal of metabolites causing those muscles
to seize-up. A less than ideal arrangement of blood vessels & ligaments
in my shoulder meant that the blood vessels were constricted by the
tightening of the ligaments & muscles, much as the tourniquet
constricted them.

We talked around this problem for as long as he had time. He reckoned
that, provided I could find a way to alter my technique so as to relax
the shoulder region during the recovery, I'd get enough blood flushing
through the arms to maintain good function in the forearm & hand. But
it was up to me to explore how that might be achieved without
compromising my sculling in a different way.

A wonderful guy, & there's nothing like an intellectual challenge in a
sporting setting!

My next bit of luck, directly after this, was to get an outing in a 2x
with John Russell, a former Wingfields winner. I soon noticed two
distinctive differences between our techniques:
1. John was extremely relaxed (it seemed to me to be slow), about
starting the recovery. He did _not_ thrust his hands away but allowed
each stroke to finish, followed by an imperceptible pause, before a
smooth sweep towards the catch.
2. He had no check, pause or "poise" around his catch. His smooth sweep
forward continued straight into a rapid catch without interruption, & he
loaded that catch so rapidly that his body closed on mine in the first
part of the stroke.

As I progressively matched the feel of my action to what I felt of his,
we came very well together. And as I did so, my cramping problem
completely disappeared!

So I learned, in that one outing, how I could relax at the finish & how
accurate had been that kind & modest surgeon's analysis. And I found
that I was now faster in my 1x than before, faster even than on my more
cramp-free days. So I'd not only found the cure for a condition arising
from the non-ideal construction of my shoulder joint, but also a way to
scull faster.

As I see it, we are too often encouraged (without the slightest valid
reasoning, IMHO) to get our hands away fast. Certainly that's how I'd
been coached. This can lead some of the less athletic of us to start
the process of pushing the hands away before we have yet completed the
stroke. That causes one set of muscles to oppose others, so not only
are working to pull the boat but wasting a heap of work by pulling &
pushing internally against ourselves in the subconscious effort to get
that fast recovery.

For those with the same kind of shoulder construction as mine, the
muscles there may then be much slower to relax or may never fully relax
during the recovery. As the arms start to seize up, relaxation gets
even less likely. So if that tension to constricts blood vessels around
the shoulder joint, then you're probably going to cramp up.

I suspect that this cramping, by raising the local stresses & impairing
recovery processes, & by us rowing on through it, may help to bring on
further problems of the RSI type, including tendonitis.

Rowing as a sport prefers not to think too hard about how these & other
issues resulting from some rowers' "non-ideal" physical build can
destroy what might otherwise be a very useful rowing career. It prefers
to tip us onto the scrap-heap, in some cases (e.g. with lower back
problems) physically damaged by our rowing experiences.

Rowers thus cast aside are seen by the coaching system (if seen at all)
as somewhat inadequate & fit to be quickly forgotten. I hope I've shown
that some conditions, such as the fore-arm cramping problem, can be very
effectively worked around & that they may in any case be the
consequences of ill-considered coaching orthodoxies. I regard this
wastage of potentially useful rowers, the impaired rowing careers of
others & the injury toll to be most unfortunate. It verges even on the
irresponsible.

HTH
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

RobC

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Sep 29, 2008, 8:56:28 AM9/29/08
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> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk  Tel: +44(0)1932-570946  Fax: -563682
> URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)

Many many thanks to all of you responding. Much as I would love to
blame it on pitch, I realise I should have mentioned that this happens
in doubles and various sculling boats. However, it certainly wasn't
something I had considered. I come from the school of rowing where
fast hands were an obsession so what Carl describes makes 100% sense.
I will report back on how this all works, but just knowing that I am
not the only person to suffer from the problem makes me feel a lot
happier. I do really appreciate all the advice and views given.

Mike Sullivan

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Sep 29, 2008, 12:59:43 PM9/29/08
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"RobC" <rc....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:4ed39bf2-cf21-4656...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 29, 12:03 pm, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
> RobC wrote:
snip

> I will report back on how this all works, but just knowing that I am
> not the only person to suffer from the problem makes me feel a lot
> happier. I do really appreciate all the advice and views given.

I'll throw in a little extra, it may not apply to you directly.

Almost universally, new scullers tend to grip the handles too tight,
and will also be somewhat concerned about crabbing in a single
when they row hard, so they tend to make sure they feel the pressure
on the blades with their arms before they really stand on it.

Every new sculler seems to get 'firepaw' in their first races.

You may not be a new sculler, like I say this may not apply.

gripping tight on the handles will cause havoc with the forearms all
by itself. Experienced sweep people will tend to figure that out
quickly, but still "feel" with their arms on the drive rather than
hang on the oar.

wmar...@gmail.com

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Sep 29, 2008, 4:43:25 PM9/29/08
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Carl's thorough and well considered reply carries valuable messages.
Again, haven't seen you scull, didn't know about the fast hands stuff.
Relax, flow, feel the boat.
As one who currently has a bit of "thoracic outlet syndrome" numbness
in the hands from time to time, relaxation and stretching is
invaluable.
W

Pete

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Sep 29, 2008, 5:42:35 PM9/29/08
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On 28 Sep, 19:36, RobC <rc.2...@btinternet.com> wrote:

If you open your hands on the recovery you'll just end up grabbing at
the handles when the blades go in.

First, the position you hold sculls is not the same as with sweep
blades. It's very tempting to sit the sculls on the sweep callouses,
but the scull handle is a lot narrower: you'll find that you have your
fingers wrapped round the handles and the only way you have control is
to grip (and then your forearms cramp). So, let the sculls go right
out, try to put the weight really on the last bone in the fingers. You
won't actually do this, it'll end up on the joint between second and
third phalanges - but if you don't try you'll be putting the weight
too close to the palm and you will feel out of control when you don't
grip hard.

Second, try jacking the rating up to 26ish (on flat water, with waves
this will not help!) and sculling at an easy pressure, one you would
feel happy enough with for an hour. Don't try to pull at all with the
arms, just put the blades in the water, give the legs and back a bit
of a push, and take the blades out as they reach you. Get your
shoulders relaxed, get your arms relaxed (which almost certainly means
not straight!). Keep going until it feels natural. Then when you start
pulling with the arms (which you need to to get a decent pace, sadly)
you do it with the arms (not by yanking your shoulders up and back and
cutting off blood flow) and you do it smoothly at the end of the
stroke not early or with a big yank.

From the clearing - probably it is some kind of tension issue, some
muscle gets tired after 20-30 minutes and when it stops tensing out of
time your arms are in a better position. You might try massaging your
arms and shoulders or getting someone else to after an outing where
you get tense to find out which one - it will probably be the one that
hurts.

Pete

anatol...@abdm.co.uk

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Sep 30, 2008, 3:42:15 AM9/30/08
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It is definitely a tension thing. I get it when the pressure is on and
the conditions are bad on the tideway. Keeping shoulders relaxed, body
upright and opening the hands on the recovery seems to be the cure for
me. I would try practicing on longer outings and then try to keep the
same feeling at higher rates.

Also, I'm not so sure about the 'fast catch'. Taken to the extreme,
the temptation to slam the catch could also be a cause of increased
tension in the stroke. It is certainly a contributor to possible elbow
trouble.

Anatole


Carl Douglas

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Sep 30, 2008, 7:55:41 AM9/30/08
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I think we're agreed that it is, as you say, a tension thing. But I
think our OP needs solid evidence rather than presumption. Thus I
regret the attention now directed at the supposedly hard catch which, as
I reported, came only as the consequence of an entirely beneficial
change in finish & recovery technique.

It'd be interesting to know which of our correspondents has actually
laboured for many years under the seized forearm problem & then found,
as I was helped to find, a really effective explanation & immediate
remedy? And I'd note that in my case the newly-acquired harder, faster
catch was an accidental part of the remedy (whether directly relevant to
it or not) & never, as some seem now to imply, a part of the problem.

For those who do suffer chronic seized forearm problems this is a very
serious matter. I think they deserve very clear information on what
actually does & does not work for its victims. As a sculler with a bit
of ambition, one tends to suffer such an impediment in silence (why
reveal an Achilles' heel in a sport where the immediate response is to
suggest you're doomed ;) ), yet I still had a number of different &
useless bit of advice chucked at me from those who did learn of it.

Let's take this a bit further:

1. Catches are never as hard as we think or pretend & never, contrary to
popular myth, can they be slammed. Reason? The evidence of ergometer
force curves & in-boat force curves, & the simple fact that the oar loom
is an elastic beam which must undergo considerable bending before it can
carry the maximum load you will (around mid-stroke) get to apply.

2. In my case, the only one detailed here so far with a complete case
history from ailment to cure, it seems I should have spelled out that we
found that only in certain stroke positions did loading the shoulder
shut off the arm's blood flow, & then did so as effectively as a tourniquet.

3. The ligaments, muscles, blood vessels & bony parts of the shoulder
joint passes through a range of 3D inter-relationships between catch &
finish. I am sure all here can see how, in some positions & loadings
but not in others, & only for someone with a particular shoulder
structure, an essential blood vessel might come under sufficient
pressure from the surrounding structures & tissues to become squeezed &
as effectively closed to flow as under a tourniquet.

4. Equally, rowing would be a lot less popular if this happened to
every rower!

5. And, by great good fortune, I was helped to find a way to row which
accepted that blood flow would still be interrupted but facilitated the
prompt & effective subsequent relaxation of the tension causing that
interruption, allowing blood flow to quickly re-establish rather than
remain stifled at the end of each stroke.

6. The result for me was a new, more relaxed technique, under which I
was immediately a faster sculler in comparison to my previous
performances _before_ the onset of arm seizure inevitably slowed me down.

So, while everyone may speculate, this is a very serious issue for an
afflicted sculler. In particular, I would suggest that it is firmly
grasping at the wrong end of the stick to think that hard catches, per
se, induce this condition. That's not to say that if someone tenses
their shoulders to make a hard catch (which will inevitably result in a
slow & soft catch because the catch cannot be all that hard) they may
not also induce this condition - dependent on the structures of their
own shoulder.

Similarly, there are very many scullers who enjoy sending their hands
fast away, with none of the arm cramp suffered by a few of us. They
might try to understand that this does not necessarily mean that their
hand speed is more than an irrelevant decoration to their stroke, or
that it may even be mildly detrimental to their performance, there being
no logic to explain why pushing hands away fast should speed the boat &
some to show that it will not. The good stroke is entirely free of
"twiddly bits", but irrational decorations are sometimes beloved of
their exponents & of a proportion of coaches. Which wouldn't matter but
for the fact that insistence on their application can really screw up &
even injure an otherwise useful rower.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf

Pete

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Sep 30, 2008, 7:45:25 PM9/30/08
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On 30 Sep, 08:42, "AnatoleBe...@googlemail.com"

Definitely not my intention to suggest a 'fast catch' or any such
thing. Rate 26 is really not that high, you get the rate by moving a
bit faster on the recovery. Because you're not working very hard
despite rating 26, you're actually doing very little work at the
catch. The catch should feel relaxed and easy, it should still feel
that way at 36 as well. If it feels like you're doing anything fast or
worked with the arms at the catch, then don't do it and the tension
will probably be helped.

Pete

Debs

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Nov 20, 2012, 8:14:49 AM11/20/12
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Just a note to thank Carl for his detailed description of this condition. I have had the same problem on and off for ten years, and as you mentioned - have generally suffered in silence. When I do mention it, I inevitably get the suggestion it must be because I'm gripping the handle too tight. This leaves me infuriated, as I am so keen to avoid forearm cramps that I sure as hell don't grip the handle tightly! That, or the wry smile from the coach who thinks I'm just making excuses for a poor performance.

I finally decided to see a physio after starting to get this problem on an erg (previously it had only been an issue on the water), and a lot of what you have written seems to tie in with the proposed diagnosis. I'm back on the erg tomorrow to try out some of the suggestions both he and you have provided, and it's reassuring to know that this problem should be able to be eliminated with a change in technique.

One thing worries me - I am now starting to get problems with forearm weakness / RSI type symptoms in my everyday life, and I'm concerned that "rowing through the pain" has caused damage as you suggest... Does anyone have any comments on whether this is likely / possible?

Many thanks!
Debs

Carl

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Nov 21, 2012, 7:52:55 AM11/21/12
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Debs - I'm intrigued to see this re-surface after a 4-year break. But,
of course, the same problem persists within all sports demanding
intensive use of arm & hand.

Unfortunately those who have not suffered this problem may seek facile
explanations which dump the blame for your problem back onto you. This
general attitude is not helpful & I believe it results in a significant
level of irreversible injury & departure of a number potentially good
athletes from their sports. Unfortunately, sports still regard
relatively common impediments such as this not as something to
understand & resolve or help you to work around, & certainly not as
indicators of the need for a more considered approach to instruction,
but as signs of personal deficiency in the affected athlete. It's
easier to discard an athlete you wrongly see as a wimp than to work with
them to overcome their problem, especially if aspects of the technique
you want them to achieve might possibly be the cause of that problem.

I think you now need to consult a really good medical professional with
the sort of concerned approach which so greatly helped in may case. The
human body is capable of great things and of regaining that potential
with the right sort of care

Good luck -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglas.co.uk & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

Jim Dwyer

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Nov 21, 2012, 2:59:15 PM11/21/12
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I agree with Carl. Have your forearm strength, endurance and flexibility
tested and see if it is within the normal range.
A physio may be able to suggest exercises to help if a problem exists.

What helped me was selecting the proper grips.
I use CII black rubber grips and they feel sticky on my fingers so I just
hang off of them like hanging from an overhead rubber coated bar by your
fingers.
If they get slippery due to sweat I just rinse them off with water and they
get sticky again.

Jim


"Carl" wrote in message news:B84rs.308643$YJ1.2...@fx09.am4...

Carl

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Nov 21, 2012, 4:31:57 PM11/21/12
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On 21/11/2012 19:59, Jim Dwyer wrote:
> I agree with Carl. Have your forearm strength, endurance and
> flexibility tested and see if it is within the normal range.
> A physio may be able to suggest exercises to help if a problem exists.
>
> What helped me was selecting the proper grips.
> I use CII black rubber grips and they feel sticky on my fingers so I
> just hang off of them like hanging from an overhead rubber coated bar by
> your fingers.
> If they get slippery due to sweat I just rinse them off with water and
> they get sticky again.
>
> Jim
>

Your own experience might help Debs but it would not have helped me in
the least &, if her problem does have the same cause as mine, it would
not help her either.

If you visit the original thread you'll see that I wrote in 2008 about
my own cramping problem & how it was finally shown to result from the
complete interruption of blood flow by something within the shoulder
when the arm was pulling hard. This caused ischaemic cramp, every
symptom of which was exactly replicated by the simple application of a
tourniquet on the arm close to the shoulder.

The excellent surgeon who identified the source of my trouble told me I
need not quit sculling (I was losing the ability to sustain full
pressure due forearm cramp) if only I could find a way to scull that
permitted the swift return of circulation to my arms between strokes.
He felt I'd do fine provided blood could flow well during the recovery,
& showed that anything causing me to maintain tension around the
shoulder joint at & after the finish prevented this.

The 2nd happy event was that, shortly after this diagnosis & advice, I
went in a 2x with a very fine sculler whose technique was supremely
relaxed at the finish - no fast hands away, indeed almost a moment for
reflection. Yet he could rate high and moved fast with this technique,
and his catches were magically fast. I learned more in that one outing,
in moulding myself into his actions until the boat felt like we were one
sculler, than ever before or since. And in particular I learned that
those relaxed yet powerful finishes, whether in that boat or in my own
1x, enabled me to race without forearm cramp, regardless of conditions,
& to move the boat much better.

That's what I mean about learning that current orthodoxies may not
always serve the well-being of the rower or be best for moving the boat.
We should be ready to review all we do, the key to which is in the
word 'insight'. That surgeon was willing to learn, made no prior
assumptions, understood the body well & had the wit to devise tests
which gave measurable, meaningful results. He was open about what he
did not know & was not out to impress or pull rank. And, having
correctly diagnosed the cause & given me insight, he sent me off with
the hope & belief that I could find a work-around.

It was a wonderful learning process. So I hate hearing the same
hackneyed, damaging old stuff spouted to support fast hands-away
finishes. I learned the hard way that it was purely a stylistic
fixation, an article of perceived wisdom never analysed or challenged by
its exponents but widely considered essential to moving boats & raising
ratings. And I've met too many who, through no fault of their own
except slight differences in shoulder construction, have had their
rowing careers blighted by the physical consequences of jumping through
that unnecessary hoop.

Cheers -

James HS

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Nov 26, 2012, 3:45:37 AM11/26/12
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I am going to agree and disagree with Carl - always a dangerous situation as I know he writes carefully.

Start with the agreement :)
I think that the blood flow can be constricted by the shoulder/posture combination. The disagreement - I do not link it to the fast catch.

Like Carl I can get a debilitating fore arm burning to a point that I am almost unable to feather the blade.

Unlike Carl, it only seems to happen when I scull in one direction - downstream from Chiswick to Putney :) - i.e. when I am sculling the sculler's head course.

Perversely it happens when I do a rehearsal for the race at R24 or during the race at R28 - but on the same river, in a different direction or the same direction on another stretch it NEVER happens.

However, I have also sculled the course and the direction without it happening at all over the 4.5 miles of the course.

The difference is how relaxed I am feeling and how relaxed I am sculling. While this may seem completely "obvious" it is not that I am 'gripping' harder, and it is not that my hands go away any faster or slower, but, that the whole upper shoulder assembly is 'tighter'.

The shoulder is a complex of muscles and tendons and some joint as there is little direct sceletal attachment. It is relatively easy to over tense the whole arrangement and draw through slightly to low - thus constricting the arteries, and leave the arms low, keeping them restricted.

My physio showed me on the erg how to lift my arms some 10mm and engage a shoulder stabalizing muscle and tendon alignment to improve the biomechanics and allow the shoulder to act as that 'rope' in a relaxed and biomechanically efficient arrangement.

Another illustration for me - is skiing (which I am not good at) where my instructor always asks me to move my arms away from the foetal clinging I am demonstrating, and immediately my balance and relaxation returns (only to be reminded a few moments later).

I think I am saying the same thing as Carl - row more upright and with a more open 'armpit'. I sometimes think of it as getting air to my armpit (without skying or over chicken winging to signify that I am also getting blood underneath the pit (where the artery is).

When people shout 'relax' (at a tense individual) I think "air to armpit".

The small disagreement - I think that blood flow should be fairly continuous, and that the rowing through of the stroke can be accompanied by an equally relaxed and appropriately "fast" relaxed hands away.

PS - never "row through it" - analyse it, change it, sort it and talk to some sensible people to try to work it out as rowing through it just means that there are things that can be improved and potential damage that is being done.


James

Carl

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Nov 26, 2012, 7:55:27 AM11/26/12
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On 26/11/2012 08:45, James HS wrote:
> I am going to agree and disagree with Carl - always a dangerous situation as I know he writes carefully.
>
> Start with the agreement :)
> I think that the blood flow can be constricted by the shoulder/posture combination. The disagreement - I do not link it to the fast catch.
>

James, I'm afraid you're disagreeing with something I didn't & I never
have said! In fact I very much favour fast catches - the faster the better.

If you re-read my other posting, which summarises what I said in my 2008
RSR posting (to which Debs was responding here), you'll see that I am
noting specifically that the problem comes (for some of us) from the
fast hands-away finish, which prevents the rower from relaxing the
shoulder region &, in my case, further restricts the duration of
interrupted blood circulation through the shoulder region into the
recovery phase.

There are real biomechanical disadvantages to the fast hands finish too.
If your mind is on getting hands away fast, the thought is father to the
deed & there is every possibility that, to achieve this, you start
pushing before you finish pulling.

You won't realise you're doing this, but different muscle sets are
involved in these 2 separate actions & relaxing 1 set takes time, as
does activation/transition to the other set. That means your incipient
push works against the tail end of your pull, so you do 2 lots of
opposed & thus wasted work - work which thus can't move the boat. And
all that in the cause of the concatenation of unsound arguments which
gets advanced for your needing a fast finish in the first place.

cheers -

James HS

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Nov 26, 2012, 9:52:05 AM11/26/12
to
>>I didn't & I never have said! In fact I very much favour fast catches - the faster the better.

Apologies - sloppy writing - I meant fast hands away.

The arms at full stretch and relaxed appear to allow (from personal observation) as good an arterial flow as when they are by your side (feel the pulse under the armpit).

The moment the arms break, the muscles tense and the arm comes towards the body it would appear to me that the hosepipe is being bent - when I pull my arm back to the end of the stroke and leave it there I can feel a slight swelling feeling on the back of the hand - indicating a slight restriction in the clearing of deoxygenated blood. As i raise my arm (chicken wing) the feeling reduces.

So I am modifying my statement and adding a bit - it has been found in athletes that the use of the legs actually causes the arteries feeding the arms to slightly constrict (reducing the flow) and my hypothesis is that elbow down and back hampers clearing blood.

So that is my hypothesis that elbows should be kept slightly away from the body, and as least a time in arm break position as possible ....... but linked to the need for a smooth rear of the stroke.

Despite my inaccurate reporting of your email I stick by my 'observation' that I aim to get air to the armpit for the best blood flow and extraction.

Carl

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Nov 26, 2012, 1:43:13 PM11/26/12
to
Thanks, James. I guessed that was a slip, but thought it best clarified
so we don't confuse others.

However, I still favour the simple & logical approach: do not perform
an action which is both mechanically & biomechanically unsound. While
raised elbows may reduce or eliminate the problem of forearm cramp for
you (& please understand that I hold no brief for the 'tuck your elbows
in' brigade), if the root cause is that you are having to perform an
unnecessary (fast hands away) action why should you want to find a way
to allow yourself to perform that unnecessary action? Isn't that like
trying to push the cat back into the box for the sake of appearances?

You may be able to fix it like that, but others may not (it didn't do it
for me, BTW, & I tried many things in seeking a solution). It will not
be disseminated by coaches, who often hate splayed elbows anyway & too
often see fore-arm seizure as a sign of personal inadequacy, or of
gripping, or of sheer wimpishness (it is none of these things). So the
problem will persist for as long as we coach for an action that's both
deleterious & unnecessary.

I've found that forearm cramping is always eliminated in victims by
giving them more time at the finish. And it makes perfect sense, when
you analyse it. I've also seen that some who benefit from making the
change to more relaxed finishes are then pushed straight back into the
same difficulties by pressures to conform.

Were a fast-hands finish a logical & necessary action, I'd be right with
you. But it plays no rational part in a rowing stroke, nor in raising
your rate (the 2 arguments most used by advocates of this technique), so
why compromise anyone's well-being by exploring ways to achieve an
action which cause serious problems for a small proportion of us -
problems which are simply not appreciated by the rest of the rowing world?

Cheers -

jgc...@gmail.com

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Jan 27, 2013, 2:28:06 PM1/27/13
to
Wow, this is a wonderful insight- I'll bet you have solved my problem: I have no trouble at all with forearm cramping in normal sculling, but when conditions get very rough on open water, i do sometimes get horrible cramps. I always thought it was from gripping too hard to keep the blades from being knocked out of my hands by wave impact, but concentrating on not doing that has not helped at all. Conversely, I've also tried gripping very hard on flat water to see what would happen, and... no cramps. In fact, I know that my shoulders do tense up more on the recovery under difficult conditions. Staying loose and relaxed is of course crucial to adapting each stroke to the ever-changing water surface anyway, but it's easier said than done, for me at least. Now I have an even more urgent reason to work on attaining that relaxation. Many thanks, Carl!!!
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