new (old) boat!

[John Greenly]

Some of you RSR regulars might remember that I joined the group last fall with questions about finding a racing single for myself to do some head races with, instead of my Maas Flyweight which I row on open water. I learned a lot from the resulting discussion, for which I am greatly thankful to you all.

I was just beginning to follow the advice of trying out a bunch of boats to see what suits me when I heard of a boat for sale locally. It's a Peinert X25 that had been horribly scraped up on the bottom. Well, it was cheap, I have gelcoat repair skills, I figured I could make a substantial profit on it, and I bought it. The damage was cosmetic- gelcoat- only, the outer kevlar layer was not damaged, and I have now repaired it.

I've been rowing it for a couple of weeks now, and I absolutely love it! It fits me very nicely (as far as I can tell with my limited experience), it's very stable and easy to set, it has a wonderful light, stiff feel (the hull is a lot stiffer than my 10-yr old Flyweight and somehow the 29.5 lb weight feels much lighter on the water than the 32 lb Maas). I'm certainly not going to sell it any time soon!

I've had an interesting range of responses from other rowers about this boat, on the one hand from an elite rower who called it a "plastic" boat and slow, but okay for learning to row (what makes it, a kevlar-carbon composite, any more "plastic" than most other boats I don't know), and on the other hand an excellent masters sculler told me it's a fine, simple, tough, fast boat. I don't know how fast it is, but it feels just great to me.

I'd still love to try out a CD single, but it would probably spoil me for anything else, and realistically, with my son starting college this fall any new boat is out of my reach financially for quite a while. At least this boat has CD seat slides (they're smooth as silk)!

This morning I went out for a short row and ended up going 10 miles- I just couldn't make myself get out of the boat, it felt so good... and I felt like telling you all!!

Cheers,

John G

[Sarah Harbour]

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:10:15 PM UTC+1, John Greenly wrote:

> I've had an interesting range of responses from other rowers about this boat, >on the one hand from an elite rower who called it a "plastic" boat and slow, >but okay for learning to row (what makes it, a kevlar-carbon composite, any >more "plastic" than most other boats I don't know), and on the other hand an >excellent masters sculler told me it's a fine, simple, tough, fast boat. I >don't know how fast it is, but it feels just great to me.
>
> I'd still love to try out a CD single, but it would probably spoil me for anything else, and realistically, with my son starting college this fall any new boat is out of my reach financially for quite a while. At least this boat has CD seat slides (they're smooth as silk)!
>
>

Hi John,

Glad to hear you're having fun in your new (to you) boat!

I just had to respond about your comment about 'plastic' boats. I've lost count now how many times I've been met with 'I didn't know Carl Douglas made plastic boats' when I've been at regattas with my CD-X... so it's not just you - just because someone might be good at rowing, doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about with boats - bunch of muppets!

Sarah

[johnf...@gmail.com]

The "plastic boat" putdown has always seemed a bit silly to me. As far as I know, the only boats still being made without at least some "plastic" in the hull are those built by Grahm King. And even in that case I believe the hull is made of special thin plywood sheets he laminates himself, so if there is catalyzed resin in the glue holding the layers together........

Therre are so many different constructions of "plastic" boats too that lumping them together also seems silly.

Peinerts are durable race-worthy designs. A friend raced her X25 for a number of years with good results. She eventually got a Filippi and loaned the X25 to Catherine, who raced it for a season. Now my friend's daughter uses it. There are also a number of X25's in Harvard's boathouse in Boston and they hold up well to heavy usage.

They're a tad heavy, especially the seat. Replacing it with a Dreher seat might save a pound or more!

[John Greenly]

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:04:16 PM UTC-4, Sarah Harbour wrote:

> I just had to respond about your comment about 'plastic' boats. I've lost count now how many times I've been met with 'I didn't know Carl Douglas made plastic boats' when I've been at regattas with my CD-X... so it's not just you - just because someone might be good at rowing, doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about with boats - bunch of muppets!
>
>
>
> Sarah

This particular muppet was rowing a boat made of some sort of yellow stuff... that certainly couldn't have been plastic, could it?

--John

[sully]

sounds like you got a perfect boat!

[John Greenly]

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:27:41 PM UTC-4, johnf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Peinerts are durable race-worthy designs. A friend raced her X25 for a number of years with good results. She eventually got a Filippi and loaned the X25 to Catherine, who raced it for a season. Now my friend's daughter uses it. There are also a number of X25's in Harvard's boathouse in Boston and they hold up well to heavy usage.

--That's nice to know, thanks!

> They're a tad heavy, especially the seat. Replacing it with a Dreher seat might save a pound or more!

--Yes, the seat is rather heavy- I just weighed it, it's about 1 1/2 lb. It's also a bit strange in that it is not cut right away in the middle where your tailbone goes, but just has a sort of hollowed-out downward tilted area there. In fact, my tailbone was hitting that at the finish and it was very uncomfortable, so I modified it- cut it away deeper there and re-formed the surface with a bit of carbon cloth. Now it is actually extremely comfortable and fits me really well, so I guess I'll keep using it.

[John Greenly]

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:23:57 PM UTC-4, sully wrote:

> sounds like you got a perfect boat!

Yup, thanks Sully!!

[ATP]

"John Greenly" <jgc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5d36a231-34d7-437a...@googlegroups.com...

Congrats! Did you use the cure in air type gelcoat? I recently fixed a crack
on the top of the hull that was taking on some water in the Maas 24. Today I
discovered a long crack in the fiberglass wing rigger, that will be next.

[John Greenly]

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 10:32:55 PM UTC-4, ATP wrote:
Did you use the cure in air type gelcoat? I recently fixed a crack
>
> on the top of the hull that was taking on some water in the Maas 24. Today I
>
> discovered a long crack in the fiberglass wing rigger, that will be next.

I did not use the gelcoat with the wax additive that floats to the surface to isolate the resin from air for curing. I don't know how the professionals do it, but I haven't found that to give as durable a result. I use standard gelcoat, and for small repairs (this area was roughly 6 inches wide by 3 ft long) I spray it on, let it set up just enough to not flow, a sticky state which it gets to easily in a few minutes in air, and then I put ordinary kitchen plastic wrap over it tightly. It sets up nicely. I generally have to do more than one coat of gelcoat- I try to match the original thickness, very thin on a rowing shell, and I almost always sand through it in some spots the first time.

One thing to be aware of is that if you have used epoxy in the repair, you absolutely must remove all of the amine layer that forms on the surface (soap and water, scrub well- must do whether or not there is any visible "blush", and do it before any sanding, that will just work it into the surface) otherwise polyester gelcoat will not cure properly. The result is a horrible chewing-gum-like stuff that is nasty to remove. As you can probably tell, I learned this the hard way.

--John

[Carl]

I don't know what that term 'Plastic' is supposed to mean, but I think
it's used to define something made entirely from man-made materials.
Thus I suppose it means, "contains no wood"?

I don't know which magic properties are supposed to accompany a boat
made entirely of man-made materials. I'm an engineer who has been
designing & making engineering structures (not just shells) from a wide
range of man-made & natural materials, from Titanium through steels &
brasses to aluminium, from Kevlar, carbon, glass, nylon, PEEK, diolen,
polyurethanes, acrylics, epoxies &, of course, from natural materials
including (dare I say it?) wood. So I'm entirely sure that those who
talk so glibly about the supposed merits of "plastic" boats simply
haven't a clue what they're burbling on about.

My experience is that ignorance has never stopped a self-appointed
expert from denigrating what he doesn't know, hasn't tried & can't
understand. Rowing has at least its fair share of such types.

You need only contemplate the extreme irrationality of the various
descriptions of how we should row to see that rowing floats small
islands of knowledge on a sea of ignorance. And so it is with the
popular understanding of the equipment with which we row. Thus one
argument popular in promoting boats is that boat A has less wetted
surface than boat B. It's the kind of case which, on the face of it,
sounds right - until we realise that we wouldn't dream of racing in
short fat shells of minimum wetted surface 'cos we'd lose every time.
So jumping to simple conclusions isn't smart. And it's as true with
materials of construction.

Now I'll grind my own axe:
We build shells from a wide range of materials, but always they
incorporate a large proportion of wood. Why? Because using these
materials, with our techniques, makes better, tougher, stiffer, more
resilient & more lasting boats for our clients than any other boat
that's out there. Unlike our honourable competitors, we did not throw
the baby out with the bathwater, despite the seductive economic
rationale, when fashion switched to making shells with vulnerably thin,
single, cloth layers sandwiching hollow honeycomb cores. Sure, it's a
lot easier to do it that way, but we soon saw that it wasn't better.

Putting integrity before fortune, we kept faith with a truly wonder
material - the product of 400 million years of continuous R&D, one of
the few materials immune to fatigue failure, still the world's only
aligned, mouldable, durable, bondable, durable, resilient, structural
hollow-fibre composite. It is also entirely renewable: it can be
harvested & re-planted indefinitely in ways which benefit the community
& minimise pollution.

We've been building shells for 40 years & my firm plans to continue for
the next 40. Almost every shell we've ever built is still in regular
use. Shell built around 40 years ago come occasionally into our works
for overhauls or refits to bring them up to the latest specification &,
when they leave us, their owners are simply delighted while those who
see them can't believe that these shiny, stiff, fast shells are not
brand new & may even be older than themselves. Please show me _any_
other make of racing shell with similar competitive longevity....

This does not mean that our designs and construction techniques stand
still - they don't. But we put a huge amount of effort into getting
things right &, unlike others, never copy or adapt anyone else's
product. Everything we make is strictly original, designed from the
ground up. I know, because I did all the fundamental design work &,
together with my colleagues, we did all the engineering & further design
refinement - it's an unending process, of course.

As I said, we're engineers. We're continually researching ways to make
the best even better. We respect all materials, recognise fully their
valuable properties & drawbacks, & know how their intelligent use can
further improve our products. So, currently, our laminates & structures
use Kevlar, glass & carbon as well as wood. But in even our white CD-X
models - which those armchair know-alls so glibly describe as our
"plastic" shells, the major constituent is still wood. Because wood
does the job better than anything else.

I reported on RSR, after the Duisburg World Masters last September, how
people came up to our stand to tell us that our boats would be faster,
or stiffer, or stronger, or more durable, if made in carbon. We pointed
to the array of boats on our stand, ranging in age from 14 years down to
c8 months, & explained they were in regular use & none had ever been
refurbished - they were amazed, since all looked so new. We showed how
stiff they were by pressing down on the stern of a boat that was sitting
in widely-spaced slings - to show how the bow immediately lifted without
delay or complaint. And then we pointed to the large number of our
clients who were out on the water & winning.

Still our crestfallen experts were telling us carbon should be faster.
So we asked them: how can water know that the hull passing through it is
a wood composite, not carbon? No answer, of course.

Yes, there's education job to do & we need to do it better. RSR readers
know that I'm happy to provide cogent answers & explanations of knotty
rowing related topics. But the simplistic/dismissive reactions of those
who've done no research continue to amaze me. Thus a very fine & fast
young lightweight sculler who has been using our boat to beat all comers
has a coach come up, uninvited, to tell him "you'd go much faster in a
Filippi". On what basis can he say that? The answer is that he's seen
others using Filippi, assumes they've "done all the tests" & that "it
must be so". He couldn't be more wrong - squads don't do objective
testing! But what a moron to arrogantly say something which could
undermine a young man's confidence (but not that particular one - tough
scullers have independent minds!).

So what was that coach trying to do? Gain influence by seeming smart,
perhaps? He had no experience of our shells, knew nothing about them,
hadn't used one & didn't know what he was talking about.

I always advise rowers to objectively test equipment. You spend a lot
on a boat - too much to throw at a mere whim or, more likely, in
response to untestable claims from its makers or marketeers. Squads use
certain makes of shells on the same basis as, once upon a time, everyone
bought a certain make of computer: "You can't be sacked for buying IBM",
they used to say. Too often it's a case of not daring to using anything
different from the opposition since, if your crew wins, the pundits'll
say that was lucky & if you lose it'll be "because you used the wrong
boats". And I know of cases where objective tests supported an
unfancied make, so they were ignored "'cos the crews felt better in
'Brand A'". It's daft, but in rowing it's normal - because rowing is
run by people who don't understand the underlying science, so they
prefer to follow fashion. It wouldn't happen in F1. It doesn't happen
any more at the top of cycling in the UK.

So, to cap this: this weekend we took orders for 2 singles. Both the
direct result of clients actually trying & testing our boats - and being
amazed by their performance & responsiveness. They had not realised
these boats really behaved like that, although they already understand
the beauty, resilience, longevity, etc. It was trying the boat which
made the real difference.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglas.co.uk & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[2potsin...@gmail.com]

Let me jump in here with what I hope will be relevant information to the original post in this thread. But first, it would be rude to not introduce myself, and that may involve some digression for which I apologize in advance. I've been a lurker here on RSR for a looong time, just listening and learning, but with not much of my own to offer in the discussions. I am a late-comer to the sport of rowing, having joined at age 49 a learn-to-row (sweep) class 14 years ago offered by the coach of my son's high school rowing team, and stayed on in their recreational club. There developed some deeper philosophic issues (which led to political issues) in the club management, akin to some that have been discussed here on RSR, and I temporarily left them to learn to scull with another club in the same boathouse. In my efforts to learn more and scull better, I discovered RSR and have lurked religiously ever since. I particularly hang on Carl's every word, I wish there were a book of his collected wisdom to use as a reference volume.

The sculling club that I belong to has a fleet including 12 Peinert singles (eight x25s and four 26s presently) and as the club's assistant Commodore and chief wrench monkey, I have spent many an afternoon, some mornings, and a few evenings repairing and maintaining them. A few years ago when the club bought some new shells and excessed the older ones, I bought one of them for myself. I am another happy Peinert owner, though I must admit I do envy the looks and descriptions of the CD line and wish I could at least try one for the experience. Unfortunately, it isn't quite the same as any of the local luxury car dealers where I might go in any afternoon and waste their sales rep's time just because I can... And it is a disappointment that CD's USA reps recently proved themselves unworthy, as I would have diverted my route if I were ever within reasonable driving range, but that is a different matter. (Carl, you may recognize my name, I was the one who asked on the Facebook page about the purchase availability of the demo models when they arrived in the USA.) So, back on topic, some thoughts about Peinert maintenance:

Yeah, what is it with the sneering about "plastic," but that has been covered. Well, actually, it hasn't... Back in my kayaking days, there were 2 main production methods for mass-market 'yaks - composite hulls, in the manner of many rowing shells, and roto-molded poly. Leaving aside for a moment the economics and other advantages/disadvantages of the roto-molded products, they were clearly "plastic" with a discernibly flexible surface. And because they were so much less expensive than composite hulls, they were often sneered down upon by those who had no other ways to feel better about themselves. And that is, I believe, where the Peinerts get the "plastic" reputation. The Peinerts are built of laminated kevlar and fiberglas, but without the honeycomb core that some other rowing shell makers use. As a consequence (and a related one that I will mention further in a moment), the surface of the hull body is somewhat flexible. In many places, you can depress it with your finger. Ergo, it must be cheap "plastic." But the reality is that they are designed with some very strong internal beams running the length of the hull and thus is quite rigid overall despite the apparently soft skin. In fact, this is one of the main reasons we like the Peinerts as a club boat. They are quite resilient, take a beating, bounce off most river trash, and can be crash-docked by the most amateur of our members without much damage.

But the downside of the soft skin is that the gelcoat quickly begins to show flex cracks on the hull bottom, particularly longitudinal ones amidship near the internal beam where the beam remains rigid while the hull flexes around it. We have talked to Paul (of Peinert Boatworks) about this issue and he assures us that it is cosmetic only, does not affect the kevlar/fiber fabric or the water-tightness of the hull. John, you mention that you applied a new layer of gelcoat to repair what you described as scrapes - were these scrapes from impact damage while rowing/transporting, or the fine hairline flex cracks? Somewhat related to this is the durability of the skin. Although it is resilient to most abuse, you can if you try (and even without trying as some of our members have unfortunately proven) whack a submerged tree stump at full pressure and put a good-sized hole in the bow section. In response to that, if you are buying a new Peinert, you can ask Paul to build it with an extra layer of kevlar in the bow section. Our most recent purchases have included this ice-breaker prow and none of our members have complained that it made a good boat unrowable.

Other maintenance considerations: That seat you mention is an interesting problem looking for solutions. Because of the way the cockpit/rigging of the x25 is designed, the seat tracks must be closer together than typical. (As an aside, the OEM tracks are CD Aussies...) Thus the seat must be designed with narrowly spaced wheels. Hence that strange molded thing of a seat. I've casually looked around at alternate brand seats and haven't noticed one with sufficiently narrow wheel spacing. Though I personally have not been displeased about the tailbone issue, I have in my role of club wrench monkey wondered about the mold of the seat, specifically about the comfort of the butt cheek hollows for the ladies in the club. Would they be more comfortable if the hollows were a bit farther apart for the typical female pelvic/sitbone placement? The seats pop in and out of the boat easily enough, what if we had a stock of "lady" seats and "gentleman" seats that could be selected by the individual member when signing out a boat? Carl, at some point I might contact you offlist about your customized seat sizing, do your customers send you a plaster casting of their bum so you can size the seat properly ;-)

Design aside, there are two significant mechanical vulnerabilities in the x25 seat. If your seat was made before last year, the restraining bracket on the bottom of the seat that keeps it from falling out of the track is a problem looking for a place to happen. The bracket itself was acrylic plastic and easily broken, leaving the seat to fall off when you pick up the boat or turn it over. I replaced that plastic bracket on all the club boat seats with a shop-made one of aluminum strapping. We mentioned this Paul a few years ago and the new boats we bought last year came aluminum brackets, so that suggests once again that a good builder listens to his customers. The second problem I have not found a good solution for. The aforementioned bracket is screwed onto the bottom of the hollow molded seat, and the screws strip out after a bit of usage. I have tried bigger screws, reamed out the holes and plugged them with stronger expoxy, and still the mounting screws strip out of the thin bottom of the hollow seat. I am testing one seat with a hollow door molly anchor holding each mounting screw; time will tell how well this works. The ultimate solution would be a manufacturing design change of putting a small strip of metal on the inside of the bottom of the seat to hold the mounting screws for the bracket. Another hint on the seat - we drilled a small hole in the edge of each track, one side in front of the seat at mid-slide, the hole in the other track behind the seat. When not rowing, we use a small bungee clipped diagonally across the seat to keep it firmly held in place while carrying or upside down in the rack. This takes the pressure off that vulnerable bracket.

And on to rigging maintenance. The method of mounting the pin to the round rigger bar using a single bolt/clamp system is highly adjustable, but difficult to work with. When you loosen the nut to adjust pitch, the clamp may also slip in or out changing the span without noticing it. I mitigated that problem by wrapping a turn of black electrical tape around the bar right beside the clamp when it was at the correct span. Thus you can quickly align the clamp at the correct span while struggling with the pitch adjustment. I say struggle, because it is tricky holding the pitch meter on the pin while holding two wrenches to tighten the clamp in place. Regarding these pin clamps, the default OEM orientation of the clamp knuckle is with the pin positioned to the stern side of the bar. We reversed them all so that the pin is now on the bow side of the bar (need to switch them side to side to do this) and many of our members, particularly smaller ones, find it easier to get a good long catch. You might try yours both ways and see which you like.

Enjoy your Peinert, and keep the informative discussions going.

Dick White

[johnf...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 11:47:18 AM UTC-4, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yeah, what is it with the sneering about "plastic," but that has been covered. Well, actually, it hasn't... Back in my kayaking days, there were 2 main production methods for mass-market 'yaks - composite hulls, in the manner of many rowing shells, and roto-molded poly. Leaving aside for a moment the economics and other advantages/disadvantages of the roto-molded products, they were clearly "plastic" with a discernibly flexible surface. And because they were so much less expensive than composite hulls, they were often sneered down upon by those who had no other ways to feel better about themselves. And that is, I believe, where the Peinerts get the "plastic" reputation. The Peinerts are built of laminated kevlar and fiberglas, but without the honeycomb core that some other rowing shell makers use. As a consequence (and a related one that I will mention further in a moment), the surface of the hull body is somewhat flexible. In many places, you can depress it with your finger. Ergo, it must be cheap "plastic." But the reality is that they are designed with some very strong internal beams running the length of the hull and thus is quite rigid overall despite the apparently soft skin. In fact, this is one of the main reasons we like the Peinerts as a club boat. They are quite resilient, take a beating, bounce off most river trash, and can be crash-docked by the most amateur of our members without much damage.
>

Another "coreless" boat is the Fluidesign, which like the Peinert feels "squishy". As you point out, coreless boats have the advantage of greater durability, but they are also less expensive to make and offer greater freedom in the layup schedule, which does not need to be symmetric WRT the core.

The reason "squishiness" can be OK is that water does not press on the hull in a limited area as your finger or hand does, the force is distributed over the hull surface. Probably my terminology is wrong, but I like to think of this as "panel stiffness" versus "point stiffness". Of course the hull must be stiff overall so that it does not deform as a whole under load.

And what the plastic snobs don't know is that wood boats are "squishy" too! Handling my friend's King 1x and 2x, which are about as "woody" as one can get these days, I discovered that their hulls are about as "squishy" as the hull of my Fluidesign 2x. Whereas my 1x, being of cored construction, has a very rigid-feeling hull. I don't think either construction is "faster" than the other.

>
> But the downside of the soft skin is that the gelcoat quickly begins to show flex cracks on the hull >bottom, particularly longitudinal ones amidship near the internal beam where the beam remains rigid >while the hull flexes around it. We have talked to Paul (of Peinert Boatworks) about this issue and he >assures us that it is cosmetic only, does not affect the kevlar/fiber fabric or the water-tightness of the >hull. John, you mention that you applied a new layer of gelcoat to repair what you described as scrapes >- were these scrapes from impact damage while rowing/transporting, or the fine hairline flex cracks?

I haven't noticed cracks like these in my 2005 Fluidesign 2x, which has seen a LOT of use. But I think it lacks an interior I-beam, and the materials may be a bit different.

> Other maintenance considerations: That seat you mention is an interesting problem looking for >solutions. Because of the way the cockpit/rigging of the x25 is designed, the seat tracks must be >closer together than typical. (As an aside, the OEM tracks are CD Aussies...) Thus the seat must be >designed with narrowly spaced wheels. Hence that strange molded thing of a seat. I've casually looked >around at alternate brand seats and haven't noticed one with sufficiently narrow wheel spacing.

Dreher (Durham Boat) offers seats with wheels as narrow as 16.5 cm, would that fit?

>Another hint on the seat - we drilled a small hole in the edge of each track, one side in front of the >seat at mid-slide, the hole in the other track behind the seat. When not rowing, we use a small bungee >clipped diagonally across the seat to keep it firmly held in place while carrying or upside down in the >rack. This takes the pressure off that vulnerable bracket.
>

I do this on all my boats. Less likely to misplace the seat if I take it off to cartop the boat so that it does not bang around while driving.

[John Greenly]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 11:47:18 AM UTC-4, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:

> Let me jump in here with what I hope will be relevant information to the original post in this thread. But first, it would be rude to not introduce myself, and that may involve some digression for which I apologize in advance. I've been a lurker here on RSR for a looong time, just listening and learning, but with not much of my own to offer in the discussions. I am a late-comer to the sport of rowing, having joined at age 49 a learn-to-row (sweep) class 14 years ago offered by the coach of my son's high school rowing team, and stayed on in their recreational club. There developed some deeper philosophic issues (which led to political issues) in the club management, akin to some that have been discussed here on RSR, and I temporarily left them to learn to scull with another club in the same boathouse. In my efforts to learn more and scull better, I discovered RSR and have lurked religiously ever since. I particularly hang on Carl's every word, I wish there were a book of his collected wisdom to use as a reference volume. The sculling club that I belong to has a fleet including 12 Peinert singles (eight x25s and four 26s presently) and as the club's assistant Commodore and chief wrench monkey, I have spent many an afternoon, some mornings, and a few evenings repairing and maintaining them. A few years ago when the club bought some new shells and excessed the older ones, I bought one of them for myself. I am another happy Peinert owner, though I must admit I do envy the looks and descriptions of the CD line and wish I could at least try one for the experience. Unfortunately, it isn't quite the same as any of the local luxury car dealers where I might go in any afternoon and waste their sales rep's time just because I can... And it is a disappointment that CD's USA reps recently proved themselves unworthy, as I would have diverted my route if I were ever within reasonable driving range, but that is a different matter. (Carl, you may recognize my name, I was the one who asked on the Facebook page about the purchase availability of the demo models when they arrived in the USA.) So, back on topic, some thoughts about Peinert maintenance: Yeah, what is it with the sneering about "plastic," but that has been covered. Well, actually, it hasn't... Back in my kayaking days, there were 2 main production methods for mass-market 'yaks - composite hulls, in the manner of many rowing shells, and roto-molded poly. Leaving aside for a moment the economics and other advantages/disadvantages of the roto-molded products, they were clearly "plastic" with a discernibly flexible surface. And because they were so much less expensive than composite hulls, they were often sneered down upon by those who had no other ways to feel better about themselves. And that is, I believe, where the Peinerts get the "plastic" reputation. The Peinerts are built of laminated kevlar and fiberglas, but without the honeycomb core that some other rowing shell makers use. As a consequence (and a related one that I will mention further in a moment), the surface of the hull body is somewhat flexible. In many places, you can depress it with your finger. Ergo, it must be cheap "plastic." But the reality is that they are designed with some very strong internal beams running the length of the hull and thus is quite rigid overall despite the apparently soft skin. In fact, this is one of the main reasons we like the Peinerts as a club boat. They are quite resilient, take a beating, bounce off most river trash, and can be crash-docked by the most amateur of our members without much damage. But the downside of the soft skin is that the gelcoat quickly begins to show flex cracks on the hull bottom, particularly longitudinal ones amidship near the internal beam where the beam remains rigid while the hull flexes around it. We have talked to Paul (of Peinert Boatworks) about this issue and he assures us that it is cosmetic only, does not affect the kevlar/fiber fabric or the water-tightness of the hull. John, you mention that you applied a new layer of gelcoat to repair what you described as scrapes - were these scrapes from impact damage while rowing/transporting, or the fine hairline flex cracks? Somewhat related to this is the durability of the skin. Although it is resilient to most abuse, you can if you try (and even without trying as some of our members have unfortunately proven) whack a submerged tree stump at full pressure and put a good-sized hole in the bow section. In response to that, if you are buying a new Peinert, you can ask Paul to build it with an extra layer of kevlar in the bow section. Our most recent purchases have included this ice-breaker prow and none of our members have complained that it made a good boat unrowable. Other maintenance considerations: That seat you mention is an interesting problem looking for solutions. Because of the way the cockpit/rigging of the x25 is designed, the seat tracks must be closer together than typical. (As an aside, the OEM tracks are CD Aussies...) Thus the seat must be designed with narrowly spaced wheels. Hence that strange molded thing of a seat. I've casually looked around at alternate brand seats and haven't noticed one with sufficiently narrow wheel spacing. Though I personally have not been displeased about the tailbone issue, I have in my role of club wrench monkey wondered about the mold of the seat, specifically about the comfort of the butt cheek hollows for the ladies in the club. Would they be more comfortable if the hollows were a bit farther apart for the typical female pelvic/sitbone placement? The seats pop in and out of the boat easily enough, what if we had a stock of "lady" seats and "gentleman" seats that could be selected by the individual member when signing out a boat? Carl, at some point I might contact you offlist about your customized seat sizing, do your customers send you a plaster casting of their bum so you can size the seat properly ;-) Design aside, there are two significant mechanical vulnerabilities in the x25 seat. If your seat was made before last year, the restraining bracket on the bottom of the seat that keeps it from falling out of the track is a problem looking for a place to happen. The bracket itself was acrylic plastic and easily broken, leaving the seat to fall off when you pick up the boat or turn it over. I replaced that plastic bracket on all the club boat seats with a shop-made one of aluminum strapping. We mentioned this Paul a few years ago and the new boats we bought last year came aluminum brackets, so that suggests once again that a good builder listens to his customers. The second problem I have not found a good solution for. The aforementioned bracket is screwed onto the bottom of the hollow molded seat, and the screws strip out after a bit of usage. I have tried bigger screws, reamed out the holes and plugged them with stronger expoxy, and still the mounting screws strip out of the thin bottom of the hollow seat. I am testing one seat with a hollow door molly anchor holding each mounting screw; time will tell how well this works. The ultimate solution would be a manufacturing design change of putting a small strip of metal on the inside of the bottom of the seat to hold the mounting screws for the bracket. Another hint on the seat - we drilled a small hole in the edge of each track, one side in front of the seat at mid-slide, the hole in the other track behind the seat. When not rowing, we use a small bungee clipped diagonally across the seat to keep it firmly held in place while carrying or upside down in the rack. This takes the pressure off that vulnerable bracket. And on to rigging maintenance. The method of mounting the pin to the round rigger bar using a single bolt/clamp system is highly adjustable, but difficult to work with. When you loosen the nut to adjust pitch, the clamp may also slip in or out changing the span without noticing it. I mitigated that problem by wrapping a turn of black electrical tape around the bar right beside the clamp when it was at the correct span. Thus you can quickly align the clamp at the correct span while struggling with the pitch adjustment. I say struggle, because it is tricky holding the pitch meter on the pin while holding two wrenches to tighten the clamp in place. Regarding these pin clamps, the default OEM orientation of the clamp knuckle is with the pin positioned to the stern side of the bar. We reversed them all so that the pin is now on the bow side of the bar (need to switch them side to side to do this) and many of our members, particularly smaller ones, find it easier to get a good long catch. You might try yours both ways and see which you like. Enjoy your Peinert, and keep the informative discussions going. Dick White

Hi Dick,

I really appreciate you taking the time to give write down such good information. This may not be of interest to anybody else, but it's extremely valuable to me. Just a couple of questions and answers in response:

I'm curious. Not that it really matters, but you write that the hull is kevlar and glass. Peinert's website says it is 60% carbon, 40% kevlar. I can vouch for the outer layer being kevlar, having exposed it in my repair work, and looking inside through the hatch, I am seeing carbon. Maybe in making major repairs you have found glass in the layup?

The crack/flex issue: My boat had been badly scraped up, by somehow being dragged (on land) across some very rough concrete, according to the seller. This area was under the forward end of the cockpit, and I could inspect it inside there through the hatch to determine that neither the skin nor the kevlar/nomex center beam was damaged. Yes, the hull does allow some local flexing, particularly at the bow where the sections are flatter. My boat is from 2007, and I think has not been used very heavily. Other than the one big scraped area, I did find two hairline cracks in the gelcoat, 2-3 incles long, and as you describe, both just to the side of the center beam location on the bottom.

I have found cracks like this in gelcoat on Maas boats. They're hard to see. A tip is to put the boat in a dark place and inspect with a flashlight beam pointed to graze the surface. I have repaired these on Maas hulls by drilling a very small hole (.016") into the crack, and putting a drop of epoxy (low-viscosity laminating resin) on the hole. The epoxy then wicks nicely into and along the crack and seals it perfectly. I was planning on doing the same thing with the X25 cracks, haven't gotten around to it yet- Maybe I won't bother, given your information. I think one real advantage of more expensive boats is the very tough automotive-type finishes they use. Gelcoat is cheap and quick for the builder and gives a nice, fair surface (assuming the mold is perfect), but it is certainly not as tough, especially in a very thin layer as on rowing shells.

I have bitter experience with bow strength. Last year in my Maas Flyweight I hit a floating piece of what looked like someone's dock, lurking just awash and invisible out in the middle of the lake. It was timber with a metal edge that my bow hit full on, and it tore a chunk right out of the knuckle of the bow just at the waterline. I made it to shore carrying quite a load of water (the Maas boats have positive internal flotation, thankfully). I was dismayed to see that the bow had been built with no reinforcement at all. I rebuilt it with some internal layers of hefty 9-oz glass cloth and an internal fillet of thickened epoxy, adding (I weighed the materials) <2 oz. of weight, and now I think it would withstand such an impact without being holed. Why they don't do that in the first place, I don't know.

The X25 seat: I've described my tailbone hollow modification. I was already looking askance at that acrylic bracket, and now I will definitely make an aluminum one- thanks for motivating me!! I've often wondered why builders in general don't make gender-specific seats. The X25 seat happens to fit me just right, by sheer luck. I wonder how Carl does measure people to fit them with seats.

If I may: the sailboat-rigging-technology answer to your screw-stripping problem is to make a big hole- say, 5/8 inch- through the skin and into the foam, fill it with epoxy well thickened with microballoons or wood flour and bond it to the skin with a piece of glass cloth on the surface overlapping all around. drill a hole in the resulting plug big enough to take a round-head machine screw the wrong way- head first- and install it in thickened epoxy, with the threaded end sticking out suitably. then use a nut and lockwasher on that to attach your seat keeper. This is overkill- it will take a load strong enough to rip the skin off the seat- but very satisfying! The principle can be scaled down: just make a smaller hole, maybe carve out the foam a bit to undercut the skin, and glue in the upside-down screw. It's bonding the screw in and using a nut that is the key.

Rigging: The pin clamps on the rigger tube are just like the Maas boats. I checked my X25 and found the pins were off by more than 1 degree. I've found an easy way to set the pitch, using a good bubble level- maybe you already do this. The problem, as you know, is that as you tighten the clamp the pitch changes. I found that this change is a very reproducible amount from finger tight to fully tight. So I set it finger tight with the bubble off level by a certain amount that I determined, and then when I tighten it up fully, it comes right to exact level.

Here's a question. At present the pins are indeed on the stern side of the rigger tube, and I had to move the stretcher tracks sternward 2 inches to fit me correctly. I wonder whether the fore-and-aft trim of the boat is better like this, or with the clamps reversed and the stretcher moved correspondingly toward the bow, shifting my weight forward by that amount. I've been meaning to have somebody knowledgeable watch me and help decide, but haven't had the chance yet. I'm just shy of 6' tall. What would your experience say?

Again, very many thanks for giving me the benefit of your experience, and I'm glad you have un-lurked yourself here!

John G

[ATP]

"John Greenly" <jgc...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:071151d7-a59a-4824...@googlegroups.com...

Thanks John, I will have to work at being more deft with the plastic wrap,
my first attempt wasn't too pleasing. Could be I didn't wait long enough. I
have had good results using Peel Ply on glass repairs, it definitely saves
material and cuts down on sanding.

[2potsin...@gmail.com]

JohnG, my bad there on the fiberglass. The skin is indeed kevlar and carbon. Mine is from 2001, and is carbon. The glass I was thinking of is all in the interior beam(s).

You asked if turning the pin knuckle the other way affects fore-aft trim. It doesn't for me, nor have any club members complained. As another reference point, the 4th place finisher in last fall's Head of the Charles Veteran I (60+) event was rowing a Peinert with the reversed knuckles. Said rower also happens to hold the HOCR course record in the Men's Single event, still standing from 1984 (though he likely was not rowing a Peinert then...). Thus, he could arguably be regarded as no slouch of an amateur like me. And he's a pretty big guy too. So take that as a tacit recommendation.

And johnf, thanks for the suggestion of a Dreher seat. I measured the tracks this afternoon, and unfortunately they are 14cm apart, smaller than the narrowest Dreher.

dw

[johnf...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 8:21:44 PM UTC-4, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:
> As another reference point, the 4th place finisher in last fall's Head of the Charles Veteran I (60+) >event was rowing a Peinert with the reversed knuckles. Said rower also happens to hold the HOCR course record in the Men's Single event, still standing from 1984 (though he likely was not rowing a Peinert then...). Thus, he could arguably be regarded as no slouch of an amateur like me. And he's a pretty big guy too. So take that as a tacit recommendation.
>

I think you're mistaken. The absolute HOCR course record holder in the mens 1x is Paul Fuchs, who did it in 1984 as a Lightweight. He happens to be a member of our club. His record is 5 seconds faster than the Heavyweight 1x course record set in 1982 by John Biglow. Neither of them is listed in the Vets 1x event results last year.

[johnf...@gmail.com]

Sorry forgot to include the link for the HOCR course records:
http://hocr.org/past-regattas/course-records/
Interesting reading.

[2potsin...@gmail.com]

Hmmm, from that very page - Masters Singles, Men's Division.

From the 2012 HOCR - http://www.sportgraphics.com/events/head-of-the-charles-2012#!/photo/2012-HC008-317?year=2012&school=occoquan-boat-club

[johnf...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 8:57:34 PM UTC-4, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hmmm, from that very page - Masters Singles, Men's Division.
>
>
>
> From the 2012 HOCR - http://www.sportgraphics.com/events/head-of-the-charles-2012#!/photo/2012-HC008-317?year=2012&school=occoquan-boat-club

I guess you meant to say "Mens Masters Single" rather than "Men's Single". Masters Single is limited to people 27 and up, Mens Single is any age.

[2potsin...@gmail.com]

Yes, I slipped up there. We Masters think we are the whole world, don't we ;-)

dw

[John Greenly]

Yes, I'm told that Bob Spousta, this Masters single record holder, weighs 200 lb and for many years has been racing in an X25, which is only supposed to be for up to 160lb. He is said to prefer it for its stability. He certainly set his 1984 record in something else, the X25 didn't exist then.

Thanks for finding that photo (the next one after that is of him as well). They show me that his trim with the pins forward of the rigger looks fine, so I'm going to try mine that way and see how it goes.

--John G

[johnf...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 11:00:47 PM UTC-4, John Greenly wrote:
> Yes, I'm told that Bob Spousta, this Masters single record holder, weighs 200 lb and for many years has been racing in an X25, which is only supposed to be for up to 160lb. He is said to prefer it for its stability.
>

Yes rowing in a boat rated below your weight should improve stability: the hull is pressed deeper into the water so that you sit closer to the water surface, which increases stability (by the cube of the height I'm told). Ted Van Dusen used essentially the same trick when he designed his Advantage series: he installed the seat deck a lot lower in the hull (1"-2" I believe) to gain stability with his narrow hull designs.

Squashing the hull deeper into the water may enhance stability in other ways, I'm not sure.

The point of this is to get into a narrower boat, waterline width being a major (if not the primary?) determinant of hull speed. Unfortunately stability tends to decrease as a hull is made narrower.

Several issues if you are above the boat's maximum rated weight:
- Unless you have an unusually short torso, you'll probably need to move the oarlocks all the way up on the pins, maybe even install taller pins. The oarlocks will then exert greater leverage on the pins, so you may want to add bowstays as Spousta has done. A more expensive option is to have special riggers made.
- The boat may rock fore and aft more than the designer intended because greater weight is moving back and forth during the stroke. Obviously a smooth rower will cause less of this. The second photo shows the stern dipping nearly to the water surface as Spousta comes to the catch.
- If the hull is pressed down so much that substantial amounts of water flow over the decks, that may slow you down. Smooth water conditions in sheltered courses like the Charles (at least when the photos were taken!) may avoid this problem.

I know of scullers who have used boats rated ABOVE their weight with good success. A woman who won the HOCR multiple times raced at 155-160lbs yet used a midweight boat (and trained in a heavyweight boat, two sizes up). I believe she felt that the longer waterlines gave her better speed.

And of course different builders may rate their boats in different ways: probably there is no objective commonly used standard.

[Carl]

May I add some info on seats:

We make seats for all & any track centre-lines separations.

And we make customised seats too, sculpted by our CNC router to fit your
own particular anatomy (your butt is as different from every other
person's butt as your faces are different):
www.carldouglas.co.uk/downloads/cdrs_seats/Custom%20seats.pdf

We provide a customised seat for each person in a new shell (since the
boat is made to measure, so is the seat). Otherwise we have to charge,
but it's well worth it to be able to row without pain.

On the matter of shell trim:

Moving work position by a few centimetres will not normally cause any
trim problems in even a 1x. And remember that you're probably doing
this to get further past the pin, so you've already put your feet as far
astern as you can.

[John Greenly]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 11:47:18 AM UTC-4, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:

> And on to rigging maintenance. The method of mounting the pin to the round rigger bar using a single bolt/clamp system is highly adjustable, but difficult to work with. When you loosen the nut to adjust pitch, the clamp may also slip in or out changing the span without noticing it. I mitigated that problem by wrapping a turn of black electrical tape around the bar right beside the clamp when it was at the correct span. Thus you can quickly align the clamp at the correct span while struggling with the pitch adjustment. I say struggle, because it is tricky holding the pitch meter on the pin while holding two wrenches to tighten the clamp in place. Regarding these pin clamps, the default OEM orientation of the clamp knuckle is with the pin positioned to the stern side of the bar. We reversed them all so that the pin is now on the bow side of the bar (need to switch them side to side to do this) and many of our members, particularly smaller ones, find it easier to get a good long catch. You might try yours both ways and see which you like.
> Enjoy your Peinert, and keep the informative discussions going.
> Dick White

(This won't be of much interest except to other Peinert owners). Yesterday I adjusted the stretcher sternward a notch on my X25 and began to hit the endstops of the slides at the catch, so I decided to reverse the pin clamps toward the bow, as Dick recommends, and correspondingly move the stretcher toward the bow to avoid hitting the stops. This has worked out nicely, gives me more room to work through the pin. But in the process I discovered why that pitch adjustment is such a pain, and found a fix. At least on my boat, the flanges of the pin clamp when tightened down didn't end up parallel, but rather were pinched together too much so they converged at a significant angle. In other words, the clamps are slightly too big for the rigger tube. Thus the surfaces that the pin bolt and nut bear on were not parallel, and since there is also some play in the holes that the bolt goes through, there was not a single stable position of the pin in the clamp so it would end up different every time you tightened it down. The same system on my Maas Flyweight works fine because the clamps are the right size so that those surfaces come parallel with the clamp tight. To fix the Peinert, I inserted a thin shim strip of metal between the clamp and the bar. 0.010" thick hard aluminum flashing (for roofing, you can get it at the hardware store), of the right length to go all the way around the bar inside the clamp turned out to be just right. Now the clamp flanges end up very close to parallel when tight, so the pin seats solidly and straight in the clamp. Adjustment is now very reproducible and simple, and also the aluminum shim gives a nice grip on the surfaces of clamp and bar, making the clamp very secure.

--John G

[2potsin...@gmail.com]

John, that's interesting information. I will look at mine (and the club fleet) closely next time I row.

dw

[Henry Law]

On 03/06/13 16:47, 2potsin...@gmail.com wrote:
> with not much of my own to offer in the discussions

Well, Dick, you nailed it when you finally broke cover! Thank you for
an interesting and informative post, full of practical knowledge.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England