ECW 8\27
Dave Scherer
show. I know that it seems like I say that after every ECW card I go to,
but that's probably because it is always the case.
As has become the custom, Tod Gordon and his band of merry men put on the
most amazing show that this country has seen in quite some time, if
ever. And they did it without their two top guns, which is a testament
to greatness. Of course, they did have some amazing talent to work with.
We, The Rat, Pop, and myself, arrived at 5:45 and had our customary
parking lot dinner, along with a few cold Molson Ice Beers. As we were
finishing up the grit-a-thon, who do we see walking up the side street
but Iron Mike Palij. Turns out that the Norseman had walked the 20
something blocks from his hotel, well, just because he damn well felt
like it!
We BS'd for a few before going to get in line when the Moose, Mr. ECW,
walked by for the usual salutations.
We go over and stand in line, which was long early this time. Rat and I
were drinking brew from plastic cups, since there are a few ornery police
officers around. A few feet away were guys drinking Bud from cans, so we
figured if anyone would get hassled, it would be them. Rat said they'd
be arrested for poor taste. Standing front of us was a tall guy with
bleached blonde hair, earings everywhere including his nose, which made
me wonder how he picked. Shish kabobs came to mind. Anyhow, he had
tatoos everywhere and had "Scumfuk" written around his navel. A new
mutant. His name? Belly Idol. Once inside, one of the guys said look
at the mutant. In stereo, about 5 of us said "Which one?"
Oh, and while we are in line, a bus with 50 Japanese fans pull up. Turns
out they came over for the Clash, ECW, and the PPV.
We get inside and stake our claim in the bleachers. Usually we get a
cluster of about 4 seats in three consecutive rows. Last night we were
mostly horizontal. Rat and I start mutant watching, and I let out a "rob
is cheap" just for a warm up. Guy near me says "are you on Internet?"
Yup. Well, it turns out it is the giraffe, and his contingent of great
fucking guys. Big Dave set next to the Rat and he, along with the big
guy whose name I did not catch, fit in so well with the bleacher mutants
that it seemed like we were all old friends. These guys were great.
Night starts off with Tod Gordon coming to the ring. Uh oh. He says
that Terry Funk's plane from Amarillo was "derailed." Whoops Tod. Oh
well, we get the point. Tod proceeds to *apologize* and *offer refunds*
before the show to anyone who wanted them. No one left. I watched.
Lucky they didn't too. The night, of course, was to crown a NEW NWA
Heavyweight Champion in a single elimination tournament.
1. Dean Malenko beat Osamu Nishimura with a standing figure four using
his arms. Nishimura was managed by Mr. Toyota (Wally Yamaguchi) of
Maniax and Michinoku Pro. Wally was a heel, but every time he diverted
the ref, Osamu wrestled cleanly. Nishimura reminded me in build of a
yound Barry Windham. Mutants start chanting USA, which should never
happen in the ECW Arena\Bingo Parlor. Big Dave and myself start a Japan
chant. Dave then chants, "DNA" which shut the mutants up. At first I
thought it because they were insulted, but then I thought they were
wondering what "dinna" meant. Nishimura is still grean. maleno is
surely not. Good opener. *** 1\4
2. Next we had our hero, 911 vs the Wild Card. It was supposed to be
Hawk, but the Road Pussy wouldn't job in the tourney, or so I was told,
so he wasn't there. Just as well. Both he and 911 get great heat from
the crowd. Hawk loses it once he hits the ring though. So, what is Paul
E to do. Well, Ric Flair, the booker, would have probably just picked a
name out of a hat. Paul E. though has talent. What is representaive of
what the ECWMutants hate? Hogan, but he's a pussy. How about beyond
stupid gimmicks? Yup. Doink makes his way to the ring (Borne I think).
He gets booed to the high heaven. People are irate. "What the fuck is
this asshole doing here?" You get the picture. Well, I got the
picture. And I called it to the Rat. 911 comes out to the usual
thundering ovation. Yours truly stats a chant of "Do the Clown!" 911
gets in the ring, and does three chokeslams on Doink and pins him. Paul
E. gets the stick and looks over Doink and says "This ain't the circus,
it's ECW!" Deafening ovation. One of giraffes boys starts doing the
circus theme. We join in. Great stuff. As an aside, one of the mutant
we call "Deliverance Boy." Whenever he walks buy we play the theme song,
and then crack up. The giraffes boys did the best "squealin' pigs"
imitaions you ever heard. Anyway, I ain't calling Meltzer so some fucking
moron will give this match 1\4 of a star. He totally missed the point.
2 stars for great booking and using 911 correctly.
3. Shane Douglas beat the Taz by using a tights assisted rollup. A few
weeks back on TV, Shane did hot interview where he called the WCW booker
Dick Flair, a chickenshit, and gutless coward that was a fraid to wrestle
Shane in a shoot. Can you guess our chant? Of course you can. "Dick
Flair sucks!" To be honest though, in the beginning, maybe 8 of us were
doing it. I heard a guy behind me saying "so do you" after we said "Dick
Flair sux." Not to worry. Every time we did the chant thereafter, a few
more people joined in. The match itself was hot. Taz suplexed the crap
out of Shane and he took Shawn Michaels-like bumps all over the place.
Taz used a chair, table, and evev a metal orthopedic crutch on Shane til
Douglas finally got the pin. *** 1\2.
4. 2 Cold Scorpio beat Chris Benoit in the best pure wrestling match I
have ever seen live. These guys were absolutely amazing, using every
move in the world seemingly. The crowd was hot for both guys and clapped
like what Meltzer calls a Japanese crowd. I call it a smart,
appreciative crowd. It has nothing to do with nationality. They did
Plancha in the ring and on the floor. Scorpio did one that went almost
the entire diagonal length of the ring. Benoit did the top rope
superples and Scorpio kept rolling for the pin. After the match Scorpio
blew snot on a dickhead fan. Too cool, 2 cold! Fabulous, mind numbing
stuff. 5 stars undoubtedly. The crowd standing O'd both men afterwards.
As an aside, Iron Mike and I had a discussion about how, at the Arena, so
much goes on at once that it is a case of sensory overload. I was
driving home after the show when stuff I saw, that I didn't remember,
popped into my mind. Amazing.
5. Too bad for Dean Malenko and Douglas someone had to follow this.
Crowd was still high from the last match and did not get into this one
early, though it was good. Dave yells, "Hey Shane, HOGAN IS WALKING BACK
FROM THE HOSPITAL!" Cracked everyone up. After that, we had a 5 minute
flurry of comedy that had us crying and a few of, me included, short of
breath from laughing so hard. Douglas finally got the win with a rollup.
Douglas is in the final.
Next, we have Tommy WetDreamer come out to a chorus of boos. The crowd
hates him. He may be a good guy in real life, but the crowd hates pretty
boys. They are gonna need a new gimmick to get him over. Anyhow he says
he "Is not Terry Funk."
"We know, you suck."
"I'll never BE Terry Funk."
"We know, you suck."
"But Terry Funk is my Mentor so me and Cactus Jack are gonna kick the
shit out of the Public Enemy."
"BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"
Just then, PE comes out and Wet holds them at bay for a few minutes with
his cane. They nuke him though. They place a table on another outside.
They waste him threw one. Rocco does a senton from the top onto the
table and trashes it, and WetDreamer. Crowd pops HUGE.
This is what I am talking about when I say great booking. The crowd
loves Funk, and hates Dreamer. Set them up to think he will replace
Funk, which pisses us off. Then, you trash him and make us ecstatic!
That is creative booking! I already figured out who, if Funk *really*
wasn't there, would be Jack's partner. And I was right.
6. Here, we had the great booking trifecta. The winner of this match
faced Shane in the final. I have heard that Shane will feud with 911.
So, we had 911 vs Scorpio. Logic dictates that 911 won't win the belt.
We have to get over him vs Shane. 911 is an undefeated hero. What to
do. Well, he has been feuding with Douglas' bodyguard, Mr. Hughes, so we
know how Booker Ric Flair would have handled it. Hughes would have
legwipped 911 with the baTonya causing him to lose. If they had done
that, I would have yelled "Why me?" Luckily, Flair is a chickenshit and
ain't in our house. 911 starts to squash 2 Cold when Doink comes out and
plasters Paul E. 911 has to go out and save the man right? He did squash
the clown earlier right? So now you are saying, "Real creative Dave!"
Well, 911 grabs Doink when suddenly, Doink, sans costume, comes out and
plasters 911 with nast chairshots, to which BTW he barely flinched.
Countout. As the first Doink is leaving, he takes off the mask. Can you
say, "Shane Douglas?" I knew you could. They get over their feud, keep
911 out of the final, and his record clean all the while entertaining
us. Three stars, if I have to explain why, you haven't been paying
attention.
So now we have 2 Cold vs Shane for the NWA Title. Dennis Coraluzzo
brings out the title, which if it isn't the original is a great
imitation, and says that the NWA Champ is a people champ, not a company
champion. Tod Gordon heaps accolades of greatness on the world's best
fans, HIS "Bleacher Bums!" All of the other lower card guys, and some
higher card guys, come out to watch some of the match, ala Japan. Pee
Wee, Do The Ref tm, was the official and was great last night. We start
the "Dick Flair Sucks" chant and it picks up steam as the match goes on.
Match itself was great, with fine work and excellent psychology building
to the finish, which had Shane win with the rollup. 4 stars.
Rat says we need a *great* chant for when Shane finishes his interview.
And he comes up with a classic. Shane takes the mic and says, in essence
that the NWA title is fine, but he values the real belt, his Eastern
Championship Wrestling WORLD Title. Scorpio says that Shane won, and
wrestled great, and that he'll be on his ass for the NWA title, that's
the won he wants. Shane gets the mic and say he was great too. The
shake hands. The time is here folks. Let her rip.
flair is dead
Flair is Dead
FLAIR IS DEAD
FLAIR IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The chant got so loud it was deafening. It got to the point that Shane
happily joined in in the ring, on the mic. I look around and the guy I
pissed off earlier with the Dick Flair sucks chant is thrusting his fist
in the air saying, "FLAIR IS DEAD!" THAT, my friends, is Pro Wrestling.
After all of this, there was a main event, for the ECW Tag titles.
Earlier, after the PE had nuked Dreamer, Jack said he'll take any man
from the audience and whoop their ass. And so he did.
Cactus Jack and Mikey Whippwreck took the ECW Tag Team Titles from the
Public Enemy in a fabulous, amazing match. PE was laughing like hell at
Mikey. Mikey kept trying to run away, so Cactus made him start the
match. After a tag, Mikey runs away leaving the crowd thinking he bailed
out. Yeah right. Mikey comes running out with what looked like balsa
wood, until he broke it with a sickening thud over both of the PE. And
so it begins. Typical of an ECW match, on a card with mostly wrestling,
they go all over the arena. Supermutant fan, Stanley the interbred, is
giving Rocko Rock shit when Rocko clocks him with a chair. Stan said it
didn't hurt. Yeah right Stan. They go everywhere. Rocko does a plancha
from the scaffold. Rocko does moonsault on a prone Jack and toasts a
table. Mayhem, violence and delirium continue until Rocko gets crotched
on the top rope by Jack and Mikey pins him. New Champs and a fabulous
night of rasslin! **** 1\4.
I just reread this and I realize I may come across like the obnoxious ECW
fans that Herb talked about (BTW I talked to 5 of them and they thought
it was funny). Then, I realized everything I wrote is true, so like Joe
Namath said, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up." And ECW backs it up.
***********************************************************************
* "ECW: This Sure as Hell ain't Chess!" Iron Mike Palij, 7\16\94 *
* "Rob is Cheap!" Many, many mutants, 8\13\94 *
* "FLAIR IS DEAD!" Damn near the entire ECW Arena 8\27\94 *
***********************************************************************
Jeffrey Cohen
Herb Kunze
>Three stars, if I have to explain why, you haven't been paying
>attention.
Or, maybe, it's not that I haven't been paying attention; it's
that I think the stars should be given for the work in the match
and am left wondering about that.
>The time is here folks. Let her rip.
>
>flair is dead
>Flair is Dead
>FLAIR IS DEAD
>FLAIR IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>The chant got so loud it was deafening. It got to the point that Shane
>happily joined in in the ring, on the mic. I look around and the guy I
>pissed off earlier with the Dick Flair sucks chant is thrusting his fist
>in the air saying, "FLAIR IS DEAD!" THAT, my friends, is Pro Wrestling.
>
>I just reread this and I realize I may come across like the obnoxious ECW
>fans that Herb talked about (BTW I talked to 5 of them and they thought
>it was funny). Then, I realized everything I wrote is true, so like Joe
>Namath said, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up." And ECW backs it up.
You read my mind, Dave, you read my mind. And you tried to convince
me that not all ECW fans were like the ringside "Tank brothers."
Hard to believe that an ECW night could be so great without chairs
being thrown into the ring, or refs or valets being power bombed.
Now, *that's* wrestling.
Oh well, it's not a secret any more. And it's not for everyone.
Herb...
Mike Palij
In a previous article, hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) says:
> Hard to believe that an ECW night could be so great without chairs
> being thrown into the ring, or refs or valets being power bombed.
> Now, *that's* wrestling.
Well, Herb, whether you like it or you don't, learn to love it
cause its the best thing going. Wooooooooooooo!
;-)
--
Just this person's view of netlife.=>Mike Palij...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Paul E. on Angel's "Personal" knowledge of him:
"Even something, baby, this freaking big is going to feel this
stinking small in something that freakin wide! "
Dave Scherer
>In article <Pine.3.89.9408281...@acy1.digex.net>,
>>Three stars, if I have to explain why, you haven't been paying
>>attention.
> Or, maybe, it's not that I haven't been paying attention; it's
> that I think the stars should be given for the work in the match
> and am left wondering about that.
And Mr. Kunze, that's what separates you, and maybe 1\10 of a % of
wrestling fans, from the rest of the world of pro graps. Really.
I am not going to go into a long diatribe about how it was so much better
the way that they booked the matct than say the way a Ric Kerrigan
would. I am not going to go into the fact that really, the star rating
system is largely horseshit to begin with. And I am not going to sit
here and defend the best night of wrestling have ever seen live,
especially to someone who still looks to WCW as being on teh right track.
Suffice it to say, I rate a match based on the whole shebang. The
intro. the crowd. The work. And yes, the booking. Tell me I am wrong
to do it and I'll laugh at you. Opinions aren't wrong Herb.
Don't even come weakly into this thread and "question" how I rate a match.
>>The time is here folks. Let her rip.
>>
>>flair is dead
>>Flair is Dead
>>FLAIR IS DEAD
>>FLAIR IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>The chant got so loud it was deafening. It got to the point that Shane
>>happily joined in in the ring, on the mic. I look around and the guy I
>>pissed off earlier with the Dick Flair sucks chant is thrusting his fist
>>in the air saying, "FLAIR IS DEAD!" THAT, my friends, is Pro Wrestling.
>>
>>I just reread this and I realize I may come across like the obnoxious ECW
>>fans that Herb talked about (BTW I talked to 5 of them and they thought
>>it was funny). Then, I realized everything I wrote is true, so like Joe
>>Namath said, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up." And ECW backs it up.
> You read my mind, Dave, you read my mind. And you tried to convince
> me that not all ECW fans were like the ringside "Tank brothers."
Herb, you really don't get it, and I feel badly for you. I really do.
To me, ECW is perfect wrestling. Perfect. I follow the storylines and
the work. I apreciate the booking. If I was at an All Japan Women show,
and spoke the language, and Bull Nakano said "Kandori is a peice of shit"
I would chant that too.
I don't wear a whistle and carry a stopwatch like *you* have tried to
convince me you don't.
I guess we feel the same way here.
But hey, you like the friggin' Clash, so it is obvious that good booking,
and a show with a legit 5 star match, two 4 star matches, and all but one
at least 3, surely would pale in comparison to Wednesday's Clash. I
guess I should feel bad for starting the chant..........Fucking NOT!
> Hard to believe that an ECW night could be so great without chairs
> being thrown into the ring, or refs or valets being power bombed.
> Now, *that's* wrestling.
Herb, you have shown your bias again here. SMW=Good. ECW=Bad. Fine.
Mike is right. Stay in Canada you would not enjoy an ECW show anyway.
> Oh well, it's not a secret any more. And it's not for everyone.
But is is for me. Oh, and Herb? Rumor says Hogan will sign an extension
with WCW so all of those great characters you enjoy, that are NOT like
mid 80's Titan, like Druggan and Rinky Dink and Bruti should just keep on
rolling in. Enjoy cause you know what? FLAIR IS DEAD!
--
Jesse Elliott Money
>
>Oh, and while we are in line, a bus with 50 Japanese fans pull up. Turns
>out they came over for the Clash, ECW, and the PPV.
Hey, they also went to the finest Global show in years. I'll post the
details tonight...
Jesse
TJ White
Ds> Herb, you really don't get it, and I feel badly for you. I really do.
Ds> To me, ECW is perfect wrestling. Perfect. I follow the storylines
Ds> and the work. I apreciate the booking. If I was at an All Japan
Ds> Women show, and spoke the language, and Bull Nakano said "Kandori is a
Ds> peice of shit" I would chant that too.
Ds> But hey, you like the friggin' Clash, so it is obvious that good
Ds> booking, and a show with a legit 5 star match, two 4 star matches, and
Ds> all but one at least 3, surely would pale in comparison to Wednesday's
Ds> Clash. I guess I should feel bad for starting the
Ds> chant..........Fucking NOT!
> Hard to believe that an ECW night could be so great without chairs
> being thrown into the ring, or refs or valets being power bombed.
> Now, *that's* wrestling.
Ds> Herb, you have shown your bias again here. SMW=Good. ECW=Bad. Fine.
Ds> Mike is right. Stay in Canada you would not enjoy an ECW show
Ds> anyway.
Dave, just to get an opinion or two from you. From what I've read here in
the newsgroup, it seems that there are three main members of this new NWA.
Gordon being one. Jim Crockette being another. With the group trying to
go national (in some form or another), how will ECW fair if they are forced
to eliminate the violence that ECW fans thrive on (as the WWF and WCW have
been). Also, somebody mentioned (perhaps it was even you) that Shane
Douglass was the favorite to win the title, but would most likely drop it
soon to somebody in Crockette's organization. Give this made up scenerio a
second or two. Flair and Crockette have probably been friends since the
70s (I doubt Flair would have stuck with him that long if he didn't like
the guy atleast a little). Now, Flair is "suspended" from WCW (yeah, I
know it's a work, but hang with me here). Crockette agrees to let Flair
come in and work the NWA until the end of the year, defeating Douglass for
the NWA Title. Working the NWA would include working ECW. If that
scenerio were to ever come about, would you (if you were Gordon) tell
Crockette no deal? Is Flair such a bad worker that it overshadows his name
value and it's ability to help lend clout to ANY organization trying to
gain national exposure? As I said, I know Flair isn't really suspended.
And I don't expect the scenerio I layed out for you to happen (if for no
other reason than because Flair is under contract with WCW). But, if it
did, would you criticize Gordon for the move? Just curious.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--
------ TJ White ---- Pittsburgh, PA ---- twh...@telerama.lm.com ------
The preceding program are the views of the author and may not reflect
those of this station. The material given is not implied as factual,
but rather as speculation or opinion.
Herb Kunze
Dave Scherer <dsch...@acy1.digex.net> wrote:
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>>In article <Pine.3.89.9408281...@acy1.digex.net>,
>>>Three stars, if I have to explain why, you haven't been paying
>>>attention.
>> Or, maybe, it's not that I haven't been paying attention; it's
>> that I think the stars should be given for the work in the match
>> and am left wondering about that.
>intro. the crowd. The work. And yes, the booking. Tell me I am wrong
>to do it and I'll laugh at you. Opinions aren't wrong Herb.
You aren't wrong. Your opinion isn't wrong. You liked the match
with 911. Super. I loved the comedy that Jim Cornette did in the
ring in SMW. I thought he booked himself tremendously, considering
what he can and can't do in the ring. I'll go revise those match
ratings to **** right now.
>
>I don't wear a whistle and carry a stopwatch like *you* have tried to
>convince me you don't.
In fact, I don't own a stopwatch or a whistle.
>But hey, you like the friggin' Clash, so it is obvious that good booking,
>and a show with a legit 5 star match, two 4 star matches, and all but one
>at least 3, surely would pale in comparison to Wednesday's Clash.
Now you want to appeal to star ratings. What do they measure?
How much you liked the match. I have no feel for the match quality
whatsoever from these ratings.
I thought the Clash deserved a thumbs up because there was one
excellent, reasonably long match that made up a fair percentage
of the wrestling time and it wasn't put together with anything
that would embarrass me. Yeah, there were no chairs thrown into
the ring by the crowd, no refs or valets were power-bombed, and
no chants of "Vince is dead!" or "Do Gordon Solie!" but it was
still a thumbs up show.
Herb...
Mike Palij
In a previous article, hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) says:
> I thought the Clash deserved a thumbs up because there was one
> excellent, reasonably long match that made up a fair percentage
> of the wrestling time and it wasn't put together with anything
> that would embarrass me. Yeah, there were no chairs thrown into
> the ring by the crowd, no refs or valets were power-bombed, and
> no chants of "Vince is dead!" or "Do Gordon Solie!" but it was
> still a thumbs up show.
Herb,
I have to say this one of the dumbest things you have written
in a long time. You liked the Clash? Fine. But your cheap shot
at ECW just shows how willing you are to let your ignorance get
the better of you.
Andy Patrizio
>> that would embarrass me. Yeah, there were no chairs thrown into
>> the ring by the crowd, no refs or valets were power-bombed, and
>> no chants of "Vince is dead!" or "Do Gordon Solie!" but it was
>> still a thumbs up show.
>Herb,
>I have to say this one of the dumbest things you have written
>in a long time. You liked the Clash? Fine. But your cheap shot
>at ECW just shows how willing you are to let your ignorance get
>the better of you.
The guys on IRC were right, you have become more aggressive since going
to ECW shows.
Mike, as much as I ranted about RR 94, there is one thing that makes me
dislike a show, both rasslin' and music: moron fans. If Herb's
descriptions of the ECW mutants at Fan Week are accurate, then I would be
turned off, too. Are people going to these shows for the wrestling or so
they can knock evolution back a few eons?
Half the reason I won't come down to Philly is money. I
keep telling Dave that. The other reason is I don't like being surrounded
by people who drag the backs of their hands against the ground. Between
your behavior and what I've heard about ECW fans in general, my desire to
drive 6 hours shrinks daily.
--
Andy Patrizio | Lead us not into temptation. We can
patr...@netcom.com | find it for ourselves.
Herb Kunze
Andy Patrizio <patr...@netcom.com> wrote:
>If Herb's
>descriptions of the ECW mutants at Fan Week are accurate, then I would be
>turned off, too. Are people going to these shows for the wrestling or so
>they can knock evolution back a few eons?
If anything, my descriptions of the ECW mutants were kind. The
question in my mind is whether they represent the "average" ECW
Arena fan or not. They said the Arena holds 100 fans just like
them. I'd like to give Dave & Mike the benefit of the doubt,
but the talk of this show left me wondering.
>Between
>your behavior and what I've heard about ECW fans in general, my desire to
>drive 6 hours shrinks daily.
It's sad, 'cause I really would consider doing a get-together thing
with you Andy, and other rspwers too, especially to see Sabu live
(and 2 Cold & Benoit too if they're around). Everyone that pays
out money has the right to yell whatever they want in the arena
(except "Fire!" I guess ;-)), but I don't think I'd get into most
of the stuff that's most raved about here on the net. The yelling
of stupid things annoys me -- that's been tested. I don't get
much out of the table moonsaults after the match. During a match,
I've only seen a couple that flowed well in the context of a match.
The chair throwing doesn't appeal to me at all, whether I'm in
the building or not. And I don't care for juice all that much.
Heavy juice, like Chris Jericho in Knoxville, is disgusting, really.
Before anyone says "that's not ECW," those were the three things
(and wild brawling was the fourth) that the ECW mutants at Fanweek
raved on and on about as making ECW so great. The brawling I like,
but not when it goes all over an arena, if I don't have a good view
of what's happening.
Andy, what do you say? Fanweek next year? (Assuming the special
talent meets with your satisfaction)
Herb...
Dave Scherer
>Dave, just to get an opinion or two from you. From what I've read here in
>the newsgroup, it seems that there are three main members of this new NWA.
>Gordon being one. Jim Crockette being another. With the group trying to
>go national (in some form or another), how will ECW fair if they are forced
>to eliminate the violence that ECW fans thrive on (as the WWF and WCW have
>been).
The NWA resurfacing would not affect that. Crockett would do his thing,
and Gordon his. If they go National, (ECW) then they will have to tone
things down in some markets. Philly will always get what they are
getting now, I would think.
And I want to clear up a misunderstanding here. We enjoy brutal brawls,
for sure. But we also love hot matches, as evidenced last weekend.
Some people, like Herb, just don't understand how smart the Philly crowd is.
> Also, somebody mentioned (perhaps it was even you) that Shane
>Douglass was the favorite to win the title, but would most likely drop it
>soon to somebody in Crockette's organization. Give this made up scenerio a
Twas me.
Your scenario deleted.
Would I criticize Gordon for doing what the NWA board told him to do?
No. Do I think that Shane would "work" a match with Flair? No. If they
get in the ring, there is so much animosity that it could get very ugly
for Flair. No kidding.
And as i said before, that was the initial plan. You just may see Gordon
piss on the title and never even care about it.
Dave Scherer
> You aren't wrong. Your opinion isn't wrong. You liked the match
> with 911. Super. I loved the comedy that Jim Cornette did in the
> ring in SMW. I thought he booked himself tremendously, considering
> what he can and can't do in the ring. I'll go revise those match
> ratings to **** right now.
Revise them where? You actually keep them somewhere? OH yeah, in that
tape list of yours.
Well, if you want to, feel free to go ahead and do so.
The point Herbo is that you rate matches how you like, and so do others.
What's the difference? You take wrestling, which is supposed to be a fun
hobby, and turn it into this complex freakin' math equation.
So you don't own a stopwatch. I can see you, like a figure skating judge.
"There is the required 3 sentons. 1\4 of a star. There is the plancha.
Another 1\4 of a star. Moonsault! half a star. Rick Flair's in the
match, using a walker and wearing a Depends. 2 stars."
Shit, if you can go to an arena and get caught up in the whole thing, and
mark out, why freakin' bother.
It ain't chess.
>>But hey, you like the friggin' Clash, so it is obvious that good booking,
>>and a show with a legit 5 star match, two 4 star matches, and all but one
>>at least 3, surely would pale in comparison to Wednesday's Clash.
> Now you want to appeal to star ratings. What do they measure?
> How much you liked the match. I have no feel for the match quality
> whatsoever from these ratings.
They measure how much I liked the show. Duh. How many times do I have
to say this? And you have brass, hypocratic balls to even suggest this
when you have compared fucking PPV's based on YOUR average star per show
ratings.
Oh, and like I said, I wasn't the only one, or even one of under 20, who
said the top match was 5 stars.
> I thought the Clash deserved a thumbs up because there was one
> excellent, reasonably long match that made up a fair percentage
> of the wrestling time and it wasn't put together with anything
> that would embarrass me. Yeah, there were no chairs thrown into
> the ring by the crowd, no refs or valets were power-bombed, and
> no chants of "Vince is dead!" or "Do Gordon Solie!" but it was
> still a thumbs up show.
The funny thing in all of this is that for whatever reason, you just
can't admit that ECW is hot. It cracks me up.
And like I said, enjoy that rematch of The Nasty Boys vs Pretty Wonderful
match while I suffer through Benoit vs Sabu. Sucker.
Dave Scherer
>bh...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Palij) writes:
>>> that would embarrass me. Yeah, there were no chairs thrown into
>>> the ring by the crowd, no refs or valets were power-bombed, and
>>> no chants of "Vince is dead!" or "Do Gordon Solie!" but it was
>>> still a thumbs up show.
>>Herb,
>>I have to say this one of the dumbest things you have written
>>in a long time. You liked the Clash? Fine. But your cheap shot
>>at ECW just shows how willing you are to let your ignorance get
>>the better of you.
>The guys on IRC were right, you have become more aggressive since going
>to ECW shows.
And it is a good thing.
>Mike, as much as I ranted about RR 94, there is one thing that makes me
>dislike a show, both rasslin' and music: moron fans. If Herb's
>descriptions of the ECW mutants at Fan Week are accurate, then I would be
>turned off, too. Are people going to these shows for the wrestling or so
>they can knock evolution back a few eons?
You know what Andy, you are very similar to Monsta in the Gangsta thread
taking the word of one, over than of many. I have told you that the fans
are not that bad, but Yoda says they are, so it's gospel.
They are wrestling fans. Smart fans. Comical fans. I have yet to see
anyone not have a good time, just listening to, talking with, and
laughing at the fans in the Arena.
Herb comes out of his house for the first live shows since I have been on
the net, finds the ECW fans, who only are bragging about the hottest
promotion in the country today, annoying.
Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
>Half the reason I won't come down to Philly is money. I
>keep telling Dave that. The other reason is I don't like being surrounded
>by people who drag the backs of their hands against the ground. Between
>your behavior and what I've heard about ECW fans in general, my desire to
>drive 6 hours shrinks daily.
Between Mike's behavior? What the hell does that mean? Mike is
sincerely one of the nicest, well mannered, and most intelligen people I
have ever met. His behavior? That is beyond ridiculous.
All I can say Andy is take Herb's word for it. You wouldn't enjoy The
17th anyway. Perhaps you can see the pictures in Weekly Gong.
Sheesh.
Steve Black
dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) writes:
>The point Herbo is that you rate matches how you like, and so do others.
>What's the difference? You take wrestling, which is supposed to be a fun
>hobby, and turn it into this complex freakin' math equation.
fellow Norseman, Mike Palij, came up with a chart right out of Statistics
355 to explain Herb's and Evan's match ratings earlier this year. (My God...
can it really be nine months that I've been here?) :>
>So you don't own a stopwatch. I can see you, like a figure skating judge.
>"There is the required 3 sentons. 1\4 of a star. There is the plancha.
>Another 1\4 of a star. Moonsault! half a star. Rick Flair's in the
>match, using a walker and wearing a Depends. 2 stars."
conversations with fellow RSPWers about just that very thing, I had to speak up
about it...(evil grin)
Let's see, I figure that Herb is the Russian judge, Dave is the American judge,
Hisaharu is the Japanese judge, of course, :> I would probably be the German
one...
See how ridiculous this gets? I like ratings as much as the next guy, and from
a knowledgeable person, it's a good guide, but let's be realistic. Are we going
to do PPVs now with all of us at ringside, holding up cards for each move and
each match? Please.
>The funny thing in all of this is that for whatever reason, you just
>can't admit that ECW is hot. It cracks me up.
watched? I haven't watched enough ECW to REALLY know just how much I like it,
but everything I've seen so far is as good as he's said.
======================================================================
Steve Black
c62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu
"I keep my ideals,
The opinions expressed here because in spite of
do not represent those of everything I still
the University of Missouri. believe that people
Although, if they thought are really good at
about it, they'd realize heart."
that I'm usually right.
:> :> --Anne Frank
======================================================================
Andy Patrizio
> Andy, what do you say? Fanweek next year? (Assuming the special
> talent meets with your satisfaction)
> Herb...
To be honest, I'm hoping to accumulate enough frequent flier miles for a
round trip to Tokyo. With all the travel my job has me doing, that's possible.
:-) By next summer I'll have vacation time and hopefully the miles.
We'll see about Fan Week. There's a good chance that by then, I'll be
living in California, in which case I'll be going to AAA shows in San
Jose (Robert, you game?).
Herb Kunze
Dave Scherer <dsch...@acy1.digex.net> wrote:
>They are wrestling fans. Smart fans. Comical fans. I have yet to see
>anyone not have a good time, just listening to, talking with, and
>laughing at the fans in the Arena.
Hmmm, let's check the ones that were at SMW Fanweek. Smart fans?
They knew that wrestling was a work, so that checks. Comical? They
weren't intentionally funny, although I think they tried. Good time
listening to them? Ah, no. Not even close. Talking with them? Ah,
no. Not even close. Laughing at them? Okay, maybe a little early
in the day when they hadn't had time to build up a lot of annoyance.
Other descriptions: annoying, chanting stupid things (why the hell
go to a SMW show to chant "Sabu!"?), and many other things.
>Herb comes out of his house for the first live shows since I have been on
>the net, finds the ECW fans, who only are bragging about the hottest
>promotion in the country today, annoying.
Sorry, Dave, but we only get the WWF up here. When the prices went
over $8 I figured movies were a better bet for a quality night out.
When one of the ECW guys said that "ECW Rooled," I said "Yeah, Sabu
is great, although he really doesn't need to break tables after matches
and I don't understand why you guys chant for him to do it. Funk is
fantastic. Douglas is pretty darn good too. I like Ted Petty. But
really, the great matches have to involve those first three or other
special appearances." His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
>Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
>this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
>they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
>those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
I talk about wrestling action, work & workrate. Wow, what a crime.
Somehow I don't think somebody talking about work & workrate to
somebody else who sees very little of it in the WWF is the same
as somebody chanting "Flair is Dead" as an example of why yet something
else is better.
Herb...
Steve Black
hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>In article <dscherer.778279676@acy1>,
>Dave Scherer <dsch...@acy1.digex.net> wrote:
>>They are wrestling fans. Smart fans. Comical fans. I have yet to see
>>anyone not have a good time, just listening to, talking with, and
>>laughing at the fans in the Arena.
> Hmmm, let's check the ones that were at SMW Fanweek. Smart fans?
> They knew that wrestling was a work, so that checks. Comical? They
> weren't intentionally funny, although I think they tried. Good time
> listening to them? Ah, no. Not even close. Talking with them? Ah,
> no. Not even close. Laughing at them? Okay, maybe a little early
> in the day when they hadn't had time to build up a lot of annoyance.
> Other descriptions: annoying, chanting stupid things (why the hell
> go to a SMW show to chant "Sabu!"?), and many other things.
frankly, you're making this very difficult.
I think that the problem a lot of people are having here is the fact that
you seem to be generalizing for an entire ECW crowd based solely on the people
you saw at Fan Week. Maybe the people you saw were true Deliverance-style
mutants, I won't doubt that. But does that make any of those who may be huge
fans of ECW as bad as them? No, it doesn't. I've known Dave over computer
services for three years, and he's not an asshole. I've MET the Dark Cheetah
personally, and I'll GUARANTEE you she doesn't fall into that category. Neither
do Mike Palij, Pete Stein, Paul Perdeus or anyone else who is going out there
to these cards that I am EXTREMELY jealous of and would do anything to steal
their tickets. :>
Not that I'm desperate or anything. :>
> When one of the ECW guys said that "ECW Rooled," I said "Yeah, Sabu
> is great, although he really doesn't need to break tables after matches
> and I don't understand why you guys chant for him to do it. Funk is
> fantastic. Douglas is pretty darn good too. I like Ted Petty. But
> really, the great matches have to involve those first three or other
> special appearances." His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
> they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
> you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
don't suppose it might have been because you didn't answer his damn QUESTION,
could it?
>>Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
>>this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
>>they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
>>those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
> I talk about wrestling action, work & workrate. Wow, what a crime.
> Somehow I don't think somebody talking about work & workrate to
> somebody else who sees very little of it in the WWF is the same
> as somebody chanting "Flair is Dead" as an example of why yet something
> else is better.
wanting the best action. You prefer Misawa/Kawada...Zim might prefer
Ramon/Michaels...Dave prefers 911/Hughes...I prefer a good Flair/Steamboat
match. There's no crime in what we believe, as you pointed out. You just like
a different style.
But what he is complaining about is something that I've noted for some time.
You have a tendency, along with stating your opinion on matches, to say that
because someone may prefer a Bret Hart/Diesel match to Kobashi/Akiyama, let's
say, they're somehow inferior. And admittedly, you have a pretty good track
record to go by in some cases. But it doesn't look to me like you even bother
to try anything new. I don't recall you, who has a tape collection beyond
description, ever mentioning having even thought about watching ECW. Not even
on a tape with the sound turned off.
Point is, we're not inferior for liking the WWF (those of us that do) or ECW.
It's just different tastes. Try it sometime...check out the workrate. What I've
seen is phenomenal so far, though I haven't seen much. If it's not for you,
tell us all why, on your terms. But don't get turned off by a product just
because there may be a few people you don't agree with.
Dark Cheetah
> = Steve Black
All else is MODO.
[Herb's criticism of ECW fans who also attended SMW fan week deleted]
>I think that the problem a lot of people are having here is the fact that
>you seem to be generalizing for an entire ECW crowd based solely on the people
>you saw at Fan Week. Maybe the people you saw were true Deliverance-style
>mutants, I won't doubt that. But does that make any of those who may be huge
>fans of ECW as bad as them? No, it doesn't.
All right (pulls on back-cut python boots) I'll wade into this debate.
First off, Herb: while the ECW fans may have been annoying to you
personally, they DID pay quite a bit of money to go to _SMW_ Fan Week,
after all. This ought to count for something in your book, some glimmer
that maybe they DO appreciate something about good wrestling...
Are you annoyed that they didn't bow down to Cornette as a living god?
That they were irreverent? Even, heaven forbid, that they love that
crazy lunatic, Sabu and would like to see him wrestle other places
because frankly, he puts on one heck of a match every night? Then I _do_
think you've lost a sense of proportion over the matter.
Due to time and budget constraints, I didn't get to SMW Fan Week this
year. I plan to next year, come hell or high water, and I know some other
rsp-wers who are thinking the same thing. If SMW will make its way up
just as far as Richmond (only 1 1/2 hrs. from me) I'll be at the next
possible show, because I think Cornette is a fantastic wrestling mind and
I'm looking forward to seeing his product as well.
But at present, Philly is the more convenient place for me to go to, to
see something other than Hogan's Ego Trip (WCW) or Too Damn Many 'Takers
For My Liking (WWF).
All this being said, let _me_ comment on the ECW fans I saw at the August
show. Frankly, yes, some of them look like rejects from a Mad Magazine
spoof (rejected because they were too vile to be believable). I would
avoid them in most real-life situations (and CERTAINLY in my nightmares!).
HOWEVER, they still make up a very small minority of the crowd at the
shows. Most of the people there are as solid a crowd as you would find
among the kind of people who would rather go to watch wrestling than the
opera on Sat. nights. (I go to the opera on Sundays, thank you. And
occasionally, I even give the fat lady ***** because she sung her heart
out that night *grin*)
Yes, Dave Scherer _loves_ to emphasize the lowest element of ECW fans in his
posts. It's not just that he likes feeling superior to them (don't deny
it, Dave, you know that's a true statement)... much like _you_, Herb,
sometimes come across as liking to feel superior to those of us who
haven't "graduated" to Japanese wrestling and left all this other stuff
behind. (Here's something you may not have considered; it's possible to
like both!) It's part of the atmosphere.
The submutant fans _are_ part of the show. But they are not the whole
show. Neither is the blood and gore. As exciting as the brawls are, it
was Sabu/Scorpio that left me breathless. It's Sabu/Benoit that is the
main draw in bringing me back.
>> When one of the ECW guys said that "ECW Rooled," I said "Yeah, Sabu
>> is great, although he really doesn't need to break tables after matches
Really? *smile* How do _you_ know what Sabu needs, Herb? Perhaps Sabu
has a deep-seated psychological need to break tables. _I'm_ certainly not
going to stand in his way if that's what he likes to do... would you?
*grin*
>> and I don't understand why you guys chant for him to do it.
It's a mark thing... you wouldn't understand. *grin*
Seriously, Sabu is having fun in the ring. He enjoys the crowd. Maybe he
even enjoys self-inflicted pain... who am I to say? But please don't deny
him that, or us the chance to watch him having fun. After watching Luger
hate the wrestling business for years on end, Sabu is a joy.
>> [Herb about an ECW fan] His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
>> they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
>> you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
>
>Um...excuse me, Herb...I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything, but you
>don't suppose it might have been because you didn't answer his damn QUESTION,
>could it?
Uh, hate to agree with him *grin*, but... Steve's right, Herb. Maybe the
ECW guy was trying to find out what YOU liked, so you could discuss your
differences further? Or maybe he was even curious about wrestling that
someone could think was "cooler" than ECW... hmm, you may have missed a
great chance to convert someone to Japanese wrestling.
>Herb, you don't understand. Nobody here is saying you're a criminal for
>wanting the best action. You prefer Misawa/Kawada...Zim might prefer
>Ramon/Michaels...Dave prefers 911/Hughes...I prefer a good Flair/Steamboat
>match. There's no crime in what we believe, as you pointed out. You just like
>a different style.
Me: Midnights/R'n'R, mid-eighties. I like gymnastic-style wrestling
(along with the occasional angle). Given the chance, yes, I might like
Japanese wrestling a lot... In the meantime, I like what I like.
Hey, I like SMW, and I haven't even _seen_ it yet! *grin* Doesn't that
make me a True Believer in Cornette, Herb?
Dark Cheetah
===========================================================================
"I see what I see. I hear what I hear. Then, I make up my mind."
--Fred Gwynne, _Cotton Club_
===========================================================================
(about rsp-w's "Bad Boy" Steve Black... "Hey, there were some very good
reasons I became a _Norseman_... case in point!")
Herb Kunze
Steve Black <C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu> wrote:
>But what he is complaining about is something that I've noted for some time.
>You have a tendency, along with stating your opinion on matches, to say that
>because someone may prefer a Bret Hart/Diesel match to Kobashi/Akiyama, let's
>say, they're somehow inferior. And admittedly, you have a pretty good track
>record to go by in some cases. But it doesn't look to me like you even bother
>to try anything new. I don't recall you, who has a tape collection beyond
>description, ever mentioning having even thought about watching ECW. Not even
>on a tape with the sound turned off.
I watch a lot of Sabu stuff, from all over. Whether Sabu vs. Funk
or Sabu vs. Scorpio happens under the ECW banner or not, they are
very good or better matches. The ECW TV stuff I saw was good when
it involved these good workers. While the matches may be great,
the commentary is terrible (Willie Watts or Joey Styles), but I
can ignore that for the most part while enjoying the match. The
fans' chants annoy me. And they annoy me more after Fanweek.
>Point is, we're not inferior for liking the WWF (those of us that do) or ECW.
>It's just different tastes. Try it sometime...check out the workrate. What I've
>seen is phenomenal so far, though I haven't seen much. If it's not for you,
>tell us all why, on your terms. But don't get turned off by a product just
>because there may be a few people you don't agree with.
Oh, I understand that people will like different products. My stance
on the WWF should be clear -- the wrestling (ie. work & workrate) has
been at best secondary for far too long. It's a "good thing" that
they've pushed workers recently, but the "thinness" of their talent
base shows since the consistent good workers can be counted on one hand.
Bringing the Undertaker back into top face spotlight is also bad, IMO,
from a wrestling standpoint. ECW main events are great matches. The
fans are lucky to see great work & workrate. But, the fans I met were
annoying to all hell. Dave's recent post implied that the biggest
highlight of the night was starting a "Flair is Dead!" chant. Amidst
all that great wrestling, that's the highlight. "Doing" the ref or
a valet *and* the fans chanting it is not for me. The chair throwing
is not for me, but that won't happen again. ECW fans that saw the
SMW Knoxville show found Chris Jericho's gusher (red from head to
waist, no joke) to be the only redeeming part of the show. I don't
fit in with that kind of "smart" fan and I dare say that that type
of fan might like something else besides wrestling.
Herb...
Andy Patrizio
>Revise them where? You actually keep them somewhere? OH yeah, in that
>tape list of yours.
Just because your list is just the federation and date, with no match
lists...
>The point Herbo is that you rate matches how you like, and so do others.
>What's the difference? You take wrestling, which is supposed to be a fun
>hobby, and turn it into this complex freakin' math equation.
Have you finally figured it out? Going for a Ph.D in math is likely to
make anyone coldly analytical, which is why I've always cut him that
slack. My job has the same affect on me. I give Mike a lot of credit for
not letting his profession get in the way. It is tough.
>So you don't own a stopwatch. I can see you, like a figure skating judge.
>"There is the required 3 sentons. 1\4 of a star. There is the plancha.
>Another 1\4 of a star. Moonsault! half a star. Rick Flair's in the
>match, using a walker and wearing a Depends. 2 stars."
>to say this? And you have brass, hypocratic balls to even suggest this
>when you have compared fucking PPV's based on YOUR average star per show
>ratings.
Looks like personal attacks aren't confined to election year politics.
>The funny thing in all of this is that for whatever reason, you just
>can't admit that ECW is hot. It cracks me up.
Do you treat Meltzer this way? He's made it clear ECW isn't for him, and
it seems to me he doesn't get out all that much, except for Lucha shows.
Herb is probably the closest in personality to Meltzer, and I have to
wonder what goes on with you and Dave.
Quote: "It's not for everyone." Duh. You keep differentiating between
Herb's complaints about ECW (chairs, referee assaults, boorish behavior)
with the in the ring product. At least compare apples to apples.
>And like I said, enjoy that rematch of The Nasty Boys vs Pretty Wonderful
>match while I suffer through Benoit vs Sabu. Sucker.
Man, you have become so damn arrogant and obnoxious it's sickening.
Andy Patrizio
>You know what Andy, you are very similar to Monsta in the Gangsta thread
>taking the word of one, over than of many. I have told you that the fans
>are not that bad, but Yoda says they are, so it's gospel.
I don't need Herb to tell me what to think. I have you to make my
judgements by.
>Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
>this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
>they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
>those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
Big difference. A lot of WWF fans haven't had the access to Japanese
tapes. Herb has had ECW tapes. It's the difference between an informed
and uninformed decision.
>Between Mike's behavior? What the hell does that mean? Mike is
>sincerely one of the nicest, well mannered, and most intelligen people I
>have ever met. His behavior? That is beyond ridiculous.
My mistake. I meant you.
>All I can say Andy is take Herb's word for it. You wouldn't enjoy The
>17th anyway. Perhaps you can see the pictures in Weekly Gong.
>Sheesh.
If I go to an ECW show, you'll never know it, unless Mike remembers what
I look like and points me out.
Steve Black
hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>In article <17023EF8S...@mizzou1.missouri.edu>,
>Steve Black <C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu> wrote:
>>But what he is complaining about is something that I've noted for some time.
>>You have a tendency, along with stating your opinion on matches, to say that
>>because someone may prefer a Bret Hart/Diesel match to Kobashi/Akiyama, let's
>>say, they're somehow inferior. And admittedly, you have a pretty good track
>>record to go by in some cases. But it doesn't look to me like you even bother
>>to try anything new. I don't recall you, who has a tape collection beyond
>>description, ever mentioning having even thought about watching ECW. Not even
>>on a tape with the sound turned off.
> I watch a lot of Sabu stuff, from all over. Whether Sabu vs. Funk
> or Sabu vs. Scorpio happens under the ECW banner or not, they are
> very good or better matches. The ECW TV stuff I saw was good when
> it involved these good workers. While the matches may be great,
> the commentary is terrible (Willie Watts or Joey Styles), but I
> can ignore that for the most part while enjoying the match. The
> fans' chants annoy me. And they annoy me more after Fanweek.
Point is, and this goes for people on all sides of the debate (Andy, Dave,
Herb, etc.), that just because of the obnoxiousness of a few fans (and granted,
if I ever get out to the ECW Arena, my view may change (though it's not
likely :>)), the wrestling somehow suffers. You admitted earlier that you like
the wrestling...yet you say it's not for you because of the FANS. Think about
what you're saying, Herb...I'm not trying to rub anything in at all here,
really, but aren't you the one who said that fan reaction has nothing to do
with whether you like a given promotion?
> fans are lucky to see great work & workrate. But, the fans I met were
> annoying to all hell. Dave's recent post implied that the biggest
> highlight of the night was starting a "Flair is Dead!" chant. Amidst
> all that great wrestling, that's the highlight. "Doing" the ref or
> a valet *and* the fans chanting it is not for me. The chair throwing
> is not for me, but that won't happen again.
Arena posts. He is doing the exact same thing that I as a journalist would do
(and in fact MAY do, if I can get the sports editor to bankroll me) given a
chance...give the whole picture. Not just what went on in the ring (which may
be most important to some readers), but the atmosphere, the people in the
stands, the "Bleacher Bum" outlook on the way things are (which may be most
important to others), and maybe the attitudes of the wrestlers, promoters,
ring crew, or whatever that's part of this spectacle (which may be most
important to still others). All it is, really, is literary technique. I think
he goes there for the wrestling, myself. Really, when you think about it, isn't
that what you did--on a much larger scale, even--during SMW FanWeek? BTW, I
wanted to compliment you on that...great reporting, Herb. We appreciated that.
It may not appeal to you--hell, it may not appeal to ME by the time I get there
to see it (which, at the rate things are going, is liable to be around 2004 :>)
--but it does have an audience. And the fact that that audience exists should
be respected, whether you agree or not.
>ECW fans that saw the
> SMW Knoxville show found Chris Jericho's gusher (red from head to
> waist, no joke) to be the only redeeming part of the show. I don't
> fit in with that kind of "smart" fan and I dare say that that type
> of fan might like something else besides wrestling.
know these people, so how can you judge?
Again, I don't mean this to be personal, and I don't think I have been...I'm
just showing you where we stand.
TJ White
Ds> Would I criticize Gordon for doing what the NWA board told him to do?
Ds> No. Do I think that Shane would "work" a match with Flair? No. If
Ds> they get in the ring, there is so much animosity that it could get
Ds> very ugly for Flair. No kidding.
I know that your main criticism of Flair over the past year or so (probably
longer) is the fact that his matches are pretty much carbon copy. Very
little creativity involved. Is this Shane's main criticism as well?? I've
read he feels that WCW has catered to Flair too much. Even though that may
be true, I don't really see how he can blame his problems with WCW on
Flair. Flair was still in the WWF when Douglas broke from WCW. And, don't
get me wrong. I thought Douglas was misused in WCW. I thought for a long
time (even when he was in the WWF) that he reminded me of a younger (AWA
version) Curt Hennig, and SOMEBODY should give him a character similar to
that which ECW has. But, forgive me if I happen to think it is a tad
arrogant for any man who only seems to wrestle part time and doesn't really
seem to want to travel to think he deserves to be the center of a
federation (hence my problem with Hogan being over top of just about
ANYBODY). If Douglas is the professional he wants us to believe he is,
then he should be able to put any differences he has aside until AFTER the
match. I still happen to think that Flair could work a different type of
match than we're used to if given a reason.
Jesse Elliott Money
>
>Have you finally figured it out? Going for a Ph.D in math is likely to
>make anyone coldly analytical, which is why I've always cut him that
>slack. My job has the same affect on me.
Fortunately, the Ph.D. track has different effects on different people.
Jesse
Doctoral student, Computational and Applied Mathematics
Herb Kunze
Steve Black <C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu> wrote:
>In article <CvEH2...@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca>
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>> I watch a lot of Sabu stuff, from all over. Whether Sabu vs. Funk
>> or Sabu vs. Scorpio happens under the ECW banner or not, they are
>> very good or better matches. The ECW TV stuff I saw was good when
>> it involved these good workers.
For what it's worth, I try to get Sabu stuff handheld so I don't have
to deal with the commentary at all. I can also control the volume if
a mutant fan is sitting near the camera. The fan reaction has nothing
to do with the quality of the in-ring work and hence my pleasure at
watching the match on tape in this manner. It has everything to do
with watching the match live. From recent ECW arena reviews and my
experience at Fanweek, it's clear to me that I couldn't enjoy a
wrestling match in an arena filled with even a reasonable percentage
of mutant fans of the type I met at Fanweek. At Fanweek, most of us
had fun cheering at the matches. It is a natural part of seeing
wrestling live. Why is it that I'm not the only one to report that
the ECW fans in attendance were obnoxious? Somebody mentioned that
the Torch said that there were many complaints about this from Fanweek
goers.
>> ECW fans that saw the
>> SMW Knoxville show found Chris Jericho's gusher (red from head to
>> waist, no joke) to be the only redeeming part of the show. I don't
>> fit in with that kind of "smart" fan and I dare say that that type
>> of fan might like something else besides wrestling.
>Again, maybe THEY did...but don't lump them in with the other fans. You don't
>know these people, so how can you judge?
I originally said that they told me that the ECW arena has "1000 fans
just like them" and that that wasn't appealing. Dave's recent ECW
post left me feeling like I'd just spent another night out with those
mutants, which reinforced my view of the arena atmosphere.
Herb...
Herb Kunze
Where did you get that opinion? My impression was that they liked Jim.
After all, he was quite a character most of the time.
>That they were irreverent? Even, heaven forbid, that they love that
>crazy lunatic, Sabu and would like to see him wrestle other places
>because frankly, he puts on one heck of a match every night? Then I _do_
>think you've lost a sense of proportion over the matter.
I almost agreed with the first sentence, until I saw that you didn't
write "irrelevent." ;-) How does chanting "Sabu" during a Bodies vs.
Thrillseekers match increase the chance of seeing him in SMW? What
does it really do? Make everyone else think you're an idiot and
make the wrestlers feel really appreciated? Maybe next year I'll
chant "Liger! Liger!" since I just want to support the guy and
encourage SMW to bring him in. The only situation I can compare
this to is when Flair left WCW and the fans still chanted for him
at PPVs. At least then they were expressing their displeasure
with something the promotion had done. I don't understand chanting
for another promotion's wrestler.
>HOWEVER, they still make up a very small minority of the crowd at the
>shows. Most of the people there are as solid a crowd as you would find
>among the kind of people who would rather go to watch wrestling
As I wrote before, they told me that ECW arena holds "1000 fans just
like them" and that made me write that all chance of my going to
the arena for wrestling was history. Somebody (Mike? Dave?) told
me that was not the case and I told Mike that he should probably
revise his .sig (which had my quote) since I had been "straightened
out." Then came Dave's mutant posting. That didn't only have an
effect on me. Look at Andy.
>>> Herb about an ECW fan His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
>>> they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
>>> you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
>>Um...excuse me, Herb...I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything, but you
>>don't suppose it might have been because you didn't answer his damn QUESTION,
>>could it?
>Uh, hate to agree with him *grin*, but... Steve's right, Herb. Maybe the
>ECW guy was trying to find out what YOU liked, so you could discuss your
>differences further? Or maybe he was even curious about wrestling that
>someone could think was "cooler" than ECW... hmm, you may have missed a
>great chance to convert someone to Japanese wrestling.
At this stage of the game, I'm afraid I can summarily dismiss any hopes
an intellectual reason for this guy wanting to know what wrestling they
have where I come from. He was telling me his father was bigger than
mine. He didn't stare at me because he wanted an answer. He stared
at me because I dared to question his brain power. I draw these conclusions
after spending several days around the guy.
>
Herb...
Dave Scherer
>In article <dscherer.778278955@acy1>
>dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) writes:
>
>>The point Herbo is that you rate matches how you like, and so do others.
>>What's the difference? You take wrestling, which is supposed to be a fun
>>hobby, and turn it into this complex freakin' math equation.
>
>To be fair, Dave, Herb isn't the only one. I seem to remember that your
>fellow Norseman, Mike Palij, came up with a chart right out of Statistics
>355 to explain Herb's and Evan's match ratings earlier this year. (My God...
>can it really be nine months that I've been here?) :>
If I remember the thread correctly, and I could be wrong, Mike went into
that incredible statistical analysis as a way to show stupid it was to go
into all of that statistical analysis about wrestling (opinion) ratings.
>Let's see, I figure that Herb is the Russian judge, Dave is the American judge,
>Hisaharu is the Japanese judge, of course, :> I would probably be the German
>one...
Am I the one who tells jokes to the cameraman during the match? If not,
can I be? I don't want to be a judge if I can't have fun.
>See how ridiculous this gets? I like ratings as much as the next guy, and from
>a knowledgeable person, it's a good guide, but let's be realistic. Are we going
>to do PPVs now with all of us at ringside, holding up cards for each move and
>each match? Please.
And of course, that is my point. If Herb questions my ratings of
anything, make a mental note. Don't publically do so because that's like
questioning why I like Black teddies over G strings.
>>The funny thing in all of this is that for whatever reason, you just
>>can't admit that ECW is hot. It cracks me up.
>
>Herb, I need to ask...Dave has clearly watched SMW. How much ECW have you
>watched? I haven't watched enough ECW to REALLY know just how much I like it,
>but everything I've seen so far is as good as he's said.
This answer should be a beauty.
Dave Scherer
>dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) writes:
>>Revise them where? You actually keep them somewhere? OH yeah, in that
>>tape list of yours.
>Just because your list is just the federation and date, with no match
>lists...
And hardly even that. Why? Because I watch a tape, when I have time,
and then move on. I surely don't have the time to waste writing down
information, developing a tapelist database, and then enter all of that
into the program. If you and Herb do, God bless you.
>Have you finally figured it out? Going for a Ph.D in math is likely to
>make anyone coldly analytical, which is why I've always cut him that
>slack. My job has the same affect on me. I give Mike a lot of credit for
>not letting his profession get in the way. It is tough.
I disagree. A hobby is supposed to be a diversion. A thing that takes
you away from your job, or PHd. That is what I constantly try to get
across to Herb when he rips people for not enjoying wrestling the way he
does.
And of course you cut him slack Andy. He has taken you under his wing here
and I understand that. But you have to look at it like others do. We
don't "cut him slack" like you do.
>>So you don't own a stopwatch. I can see you, like a figure skating judge.
>>"There is the required 3 sentons. 1\4 of a star. There is the plancha.
>>Another 1\4 of a star. Moonsault! half a star. Rick Flair's in the
>>match, using a walker and wearing a Depends. 2 stars."
>>to say this? And you have brass, hypocratic balls to even suggest this
>>when you have compared fucking PPV's based on YOUR average star per show
>>ratings.
>Looks like personal attacks aren't confined to election year politics.
I was thinking the same thing when Herb stereotyped all of the ECW fans,
and made comments about an arena he has never been to.
>>The funny thing in all of this is that for whatever reason, you just
>>can't admit that ECW is hot. It cracks me up.
>Do you treat Meltzer this way? He's made it clear ECW isn't for him, and
>it seems to me he doesn't get out all that much, except for Lucha shows.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. And I even do it in print (my newest
Chairshots column) so you can't even say I do it behind his back.
Meltzer does not respect Gordon, and he thinks he's mark. That cracks me
up too.
>Herb is probably the closest in personality to Meltzer, and I have to
>wonder what goes on with you and Dave.
No he's not actually. Dave at least accepts and understands that people
like other stuff.
>Quote: "It's not for everyone." Duh. You keep differentiating between
>Herb's complaints about ECW (chairs, referee assaults, boorish behavior)
>with the in the ring product. At least compare apples to apples.
That's because until today, Herb has not mentioned about matches, only
things he has no first hand knowledge of. Guess what? Most of us were
scared to death by the chairs too Andy. And I suppose that we are the
only fans in the world that have wanted to see a bad ref get hit.
And boorish behavior? It's not like fans hit other fans with their purses.
>>And like I said, enjoy that rematch of The Nasty Boys vs Pretty Wonderful
>>match while I suffer through Benoit vs Sabu. Sucker.
>Man, you have become so damn arrogant and obnoxious it's sickening.
I know. And Herb is a saint who did nothing to inspire me. Andy, I know
you respect Herb, but playing Stimpy to his Ren is beyond unbecoming.
Dave Scherer
>In article <dscherer.778279676@acy1>,
>Dave Scherer <dsch...@acy1.digex.net> wrote:
>>They are wrestling fans. Smart fans. Comical fans. I have yet to see
>>anyone not have a good time, just listening to, talking with, and
>>laughing at the fans in the Arena.
> Hmmm, let's check the ones that were at SMW Fanweek. Smart fans?
The rest of Yoda stereotyping over a thousand people based on what he
perceives of a few deleted.
Herb, you didn't like 5 ECW fans. Or 10. Whatever. So we all stink?
There is more to this than you are letting on, so why not be a man and
say what is really bothering you. Your line of reasoning is flawed, that
is does not merit an argument.
> Other descriptions: annoying, chanting stupid things (why the hell
> go to a SMW show to chant "Sabu!"?), and many other things.
Herbo, I remember you thinking it was great when WCW fans chanted "we
want Flair." That was OK though? Lots of people at lots of shows will
chant annoying things. Like "USA." Some even chant Flair is Dead.
The real cool part is that some fans even understand what the chants
mean. But even if you don't, just mentally turn the sound off like you
do at home, because people have a right to yell what they want.
>>Herb comes out of his house for the first live shows since I have been on
>>the net, finds the ECW fans, who only are bragging about the hottest
>>promotion in the country today, annoying.
> Sorry, Dave, but we only get the WWF up here. When the prices went
> over $8 I figured movies were a better bet for a quality night out.
That wasn't my point. You are rusty at being a house show fan. It is
worlds different than watching tapes.
> When one of the ECW guys said that "ECW Rooled," I said "Yeah, Sabu
> is great, although he really doesn't need to break tables after matches
> and I don't understand why you guys chant for him to do it.
Cool. I was hoping you would post this fallacious line again. Sabu
breaks tables whether you cheer for it or not. Just ask the MI
contingent who have seen him do it. After he puts his body on the line,
I certainly will cheer him. But the tables are his choice.
> Funk is
> fantastic. Douglas is pretty darn good too. I like Ted Petty. But
> really, the great matches have to involve those first three or other
> special appearances." His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
> they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
> you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
His response should have been "No you putz, I asked you that because if
you watch something better than ECW, I'd like to see it."
It's good because it's good. If you got that ridiculously analytical
about wrestling, you are lucky they didn't give you a wedgie, steal your
glasses, and lock you in a closet.
>>Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
>>this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
>>they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
>>those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
> I talk about wrestling action, work & workrate. Wow, what a crime.
No crime at all. What's wrong is the pompous way you speak down to
anyone who likes the WWF and they way you use your Mr. Wizard formulas to
"prove" what they like is wrong.
And guess what? Work isn't just what happens in the ring.
> Somehow I don't think somebody talking about work & workrate to
> somebody else who sees very little of it in the WWF is the same
> as somebody chanting "Flair is Dead" as an example of why yet something
> else is better.
If "somebody" just talked, you may have a point. But you badger, insult,
and speak condescendingly to Titan fans.
Dave Scherer
C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Steve Black) writes:
>In article <CvEH2...@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca>
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>
>>In article <17023EF8S...@mizzou1.missouri.edu>,
>>Steve Black <C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu> wrote:
>
>> I watch a lot of Sabu stuff, from all over. Whether Sabu vs. Funk
>> or Sabu vs. Scorpio happens under the ECW banner or not, they are
>> very good or better matches.
But isn't it funny how the match Herb put on WoodyMarinpiad was from the
WWN taping? Things that make you go hmmmm.
>So watch it with the sound turned off. You say you've done that before anyway.
>Point is, and this goes for people on all sides of the debate (Andy, Dave,
>Herb, etc.), that just because of the obnoxiousness of a few fans (and granted,
>if I ever get out to the ECW Arena, my view may change (though it's not
>likely :>)), the wrestling somehow suffers. You admitted earlier that you like
>the wrestling...yet you say it's not for you because of the FANS. Think about
>what you're saying, Herb...I'm not trying to rub anything in at all here,
>really, but aren't you the one who said that fan reaction has nothing to do
>with whether you like a given promotion?
At this point, this whole thing has gotten so ridiculous that it has
become obvious to me that Herb has heat with me, and he is using whatever
lame excuses he can to screw with me.
Get past it Herb, it's only wrestling.
Then Herb cluelessly writes:
>> fans are lucky to see great work & workrate. But, the fans I met were
>> annoying to all hell. Dave's recent post implied that the biggest
>> highlight of the night was starting a "Flair is Dead!" chant. Amidst
>> all that great wrestling, that's the highlight. "Doing" the ref or
>> a valet *and* the fans chanting it is not for me. The chair throwing
>> is not for me, but that won't happen again.
To which Steve intteligently counters:
>I think that somewhere along the line, you've missed the point of Dave's ECW
>Arena posts. He is doing the exact same thing that I as a journalist would do
>(and in fact MAY do, if I can get the sports editor to bankroll me) given a
>chance...give the whole picture. Not just what went on in the ring (which may
>be most important to some readers), but the atmosphere, the people in the
That is exactly my intention. I have gotten so many emails saying
"Thanks, I feel like I was there" That I will always do my recaps that way.
And just so Yoda understands, Flair is Dead has a meaning Herb. Do you
know what it is? Who used to hold the NWA Title. Who in many people's
mind has poorly booked WCW?
Then who spit on the NWA and forged a new direction and claimed the New
ECW World Title?
Herb, ever heard the phrase "The King is dead, Long live the King?"
Dave Scherer
>I know that your main criticism of Flair over the past year or so (probably
>longer) is the fact that his matches are pretty much carbon copy. Very
>little creativity involved. Is this Shane's main criticism as well?? I've
I don't know Shane's main criticism other than Flair was the champion of
the other "so called" wrestling organization. And he was the booker there.
>read he feels that WCW has catered to Flair too much. Even though that may
>be true, I don't really see how he can blame his problems with WCW on
>Flair. Flair was still in the WWF when Douglas broke from WCW. And, don't
But he's the booker there now. And maybe Douglas is disgusted with
Flair's booking and putting over Hogan so easily.
>that which ECW has. But, forgive me if I happen to think it is a tad
>arrogant for any man who only seems to wrestle part time and doesn't really
>seem to want to travel to think he deserves to be the center of a
>federation (hence my problem with Hogan being over top of just about
Where will Shane go? He teaches in Pittsburgh, so working a territory is
out. He hates WCW, and Titan, because of their styles. Where can he
go? If ECW takes off, he'll be there when they need him.
>ANYBODY). If Douglas is the professional he wants us to believe he is,
>then he should be able to put any differences he has aside until AFTER the
>match. I still happen to think that Flair could work a different type of
>match than we're used to if given a reason.
I LOVE shoot interviews. Because Titan and WCW are afraid to do them,
they are wrong? I disagree.
Jamie LaBrash
In a previous article, dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) says:
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>
>No crime at all. What's wrong is the pompous way you speak down to
>anyone who likes the WWF
>
Well, if they are fans of the WWF chances are they are used to and enjoy
being spoken down to. :)
--
! JAMIE LABRASH ! "Rob is cheap!!!!!!" - the ECW mutants !
! ba...@freenet.carleton.ca ! "If you hate something.......don't !
! Stardog on IRC ! you do it too!" - EVedder !
! Co-owner of the SECOND place team in the F.C.F.T.F.B.L. (out of 12) !
TJ White
Ds> I don't know Shane's main criticism other than Flair was the champion
Ds> of the other "so called" wrestling organization. And he was the
Ds> booker there.
Well, I kinda agree here. An active wrestler shouldn't be the primary
booker. Especially when you could very well be the most likely candidate
to lead the federation.
Ds> But he's the booker there now. And maybe Douglas is disgusted with
Ds> Flair's booking and putting over Hogan so easily.
I agree with him whole heartedly here. I HATE what they've done with
Hogan. To the point that if Hogan does actually stay longer than Starcade
I might quit watching WCW (Though, until ECW has the presence of mind to
travel just a tad bit further west to Shane's hometown I don't exactly know
what my options are). But Douglas has been badmouthing WCW since he left
there. That's been well over a year. As I said, Flair was in the WWF when
he started badmouthing them. Maybe you could shed some light on why he
left WCW in the first place. I know the shoulder injury was legit (talk of
him retiring because of it for a short time). And I imagine he didn't like
playing second fiddle to "old man" Steamboat. Other than that, I don't
know exactly what his problem would be.
Ds> Where will Shane go? He teaches in Pittsburgh, so working a territory
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know. He lives (or atleast did) about 20 minutes from where I do. Maybe
it's time he makes a decision as to his priorities. There is no reason why
he can't quit teaching now, then go back to it later.
Ds> is out. He hates WCW, and Titan, because of their styles. Where can
Ds> he go? If ECW takes off, he'll be there when they need him.
Well, as I said before, this won't mean a lot to me until ECW gets better
coverage. It seems interresting though, that Slamboree seemed to go over
fairly well in ECW Country.
Ds> I LOVE shoot interviews. Because Titan and WCW are afraid to do them,
Ds> they are wrong? I disagree.
I'm not saying that they are wrong. Clearly WCW and Vinnie are terrified
at the thought of doing anything that what fan base they have left might
object to. I'm not 100% certain all of this is Flair's doing though.
Flair may be the booker, but how much creative control does he REALLY have?
There were rumors floating around before Flair took the job that several
other people were up for the position (Terry Funk, Jerry Jarrett, etc.).
What I heard Funk's main objection was that he wouldn't have enough
creative control (maybe you know if this is true or not). My point is that
McMahon has built a federation on lame angles and screwjob endings.
Bischoff is clearly a McMahon wannabe. Does Flair have enough control to
tell Bischoff no to his stupid angles. Bischoff did some comments for Dave
Madden in the Pittsburgh Post Gazzette where he said that Hogan would be
the best thing that could ever happen to WCW (before he even signed).
Flair didn't seem quite as optomistic saying that the best WWF worker in
recent times was clearly Shawn Michaels. I'm not saying Flair is a great
booker. I'm not even saying he's DECENT (though he's had his moments with
the Cactus Jack/Sullivan/Payne v. Nasty feud). But, I'm not sure ANYBODY
could book well in the system Bischoff's created.
Pete Barlow
> C62...@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Steve Black) writes:
>>To be fair, Dave, Herb isn't the only one. I seem to remember that your
>>fellow Norseman, Mike Palij, came up with a chart right out of Statistics
>>355 to explain Herb's and Evan's match ratings earlier this year. (My God...
>>can it really be nine months that I've been here?) :>
> If I remember the thread correctly, and I could be wrong, Mike went into
> that incredible statistical analysis as a way to show stupid it was to go
> into all of that statistical analysis about wrestling (opinion) ratings.
Correct.
>>Let's see, I figure that Herb is the Russian judge, Dave is the American judge,
>>Hisaharu is the Japanese judge, of course, :> I would probably be the German
>>one...
> Am I the one who tells jokes to the cameraman during the match? If not,
> can I be? I don't want to be a judge if I can't have fun.
Now, if THIS is the case, then which judge am I? Or am I just the booker? (If
I'm the booker, I don't honestly think I would've given the NWA title to
Douglas, but then I'm a touch more avant-garde than everybody thinks I am.)
>>See how ridiculous this gets? I like ratings as much as the next guy, and from
>>a knowledgeable person, it's a good guide, but let's be realistic. Are we going
>>to do PPVs now with all of us at ringside, holding up cards for each move and
>>each match? Please.
> And of course, that is my point. If Herb questions my ratings of
> anything, make a mental note. Don't publically do so because that's like
> questioning why I like Black teddies over G strings.
Alright, I'll bite. Dave, why do you prefer Black teddies to G-strings?
Pete.
Pete Barlow
> hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>>In article <dscherer.778279676@acy1>,
>>Dave Scherer <dsch...@acy1.digex.net> wrote:
>>>They are wrestling fans. Smart fans. Comical fans. I have yet to see
>>>anyone not have a good time, just listening to, talking with, and
>>>laughing at the fans in the Arena.
>> Hmmm, let's check the ones that were at SMW Fanweek. Smart fans?
You know, there's an easier way to get the point across here. All squares are
rectangles. All rectangles are not squares. Replace "squares" with "mutant
jackass ECW fans who went to Fanweek" and rectangles with "average ECW fan" and
you've pretty well got things as they are. I'll lay even money Herb's
believing right now it's the other way around.
> The rest of Yoda stereotyping over a thousand people based on what he
> perceives of a few deleted.
> Herb, you didn't like 5 ECW fans. Or 10. Whatever. So we all stink?
> There is more to this than you are letting on, so why not be a man and
> say what is really bothering you. Your line of reasoning is flawed, that
> is does not merit an argument.
Simple. Any psych major could probably tell you that it's all a matter of
control.
>> Other descriptions: annoying, chanting stupid things (why the hell
>> go to a SMW show to chant "Sabu!"?), and many other things.
>
> Herbo, I remember you thinking it was great when WCW fans chanted "we
> want Flair." That was OK though? Lots of people at lots of shows will
> chant annoying things. Like "USA." Some even chant Flair is Dead.
> The real cool part is that some fans even understand what the chants
> mean. But even if you don't, just mentally turn the sound off like you
> do at home, because people have a right to yell what they want.
Yes, but this is the almighty Flair who you're talking about, Dave... you know,
The Man... The Nature Boy... the only man who can wrestle the same match
against 10 different opponents over an 8 year period and STILL be called the
best in the business, even though there are a solid dozen in the world who are
younger, faster, and--let's face it--better than he is.
>>>Herb comes out of his house for the first live shows since I have been on
>>>the net, finds the ECW fans, who only are bragging about the hottest
>>>promotion in the country today, annoying.
>> Sorry, Dave, but we only get the WWF up here. When the prices went
>> over $8 I figured movies were a better bet for a quality night out.
> That wasn't my point. You are rusty at being a house show fan. It is
> worlds different than watching tapes.
This is true. The reason *I* stopped going to houses is because they stopped
coming to Dayton.
>> When one of the ECW guys said that "ECW Rooled," I said "Yeah, Sabu
>> is great, although he really doesn't need to break tables after matches
>> and I don't understand why you guys chant for him to do it.
> Cool. I was hoping you would post this fallacious line again. Sabu
> breaks tables whether you cheer for it or not. Just ask the MI
> contingent who have seen him do it. After he puts his body on the line,
> I certainly will cheer him. But the tables are his choice.
Agreed. Take it up with Sabu... it's not up to the fans, and it never has
been.
>> Funk is
>> fantastic. Douglas is pretty darn good too. I like Ted Petty. But
>> really, the great matches have to involve those first three or other
>> special appearances." His response was, "What kind of wrestling do
>> they have where you come from?" My response was, "Good logic. Because
>> you come from there, that makes it good." That got a blank stare.
Quite clearly, guys, this is the case.. and believe it or not, it even applies
to herb. Where Herb comes from, though, is the World of VHS.(tm)
> His response should have been "No you putz, I asked you that because if
> you watch something better than ECW, I'd like to see it."
> It's good because it's good. If you got that ridiculously analytical
> about wrestling, you are lucky they didn't give you a wedgie, steal your
> glasses, and lock you in a closet.
"Have you ever putted with a wedgie?"
>>>Then, I think about all of the WWF fans that Herb has spoken down to on
>>>this net over the years, saying how they don't know wrestling because
>>>they don't watch the Japanese Feds, and I wonder if he even realize that
>>>those people feel about him the same way he felt about a few ECW fans.
>> I talk about wrestling action, work & workrate. Wow, what a crime.
But there's more to it now than that. Like it or not, that IS the case.
> No crime at all. What's wrong is the pompous way you speak down to
> anyone who likes the WWF and they way you use your Mr. Wizard formulas to
> "prove" what they like is wrong.
Numbers don't mean a thing... any good statistician will be able to tell you
that. Numbers reflect past performance only. If Ken Griffey Jr. hits a home
run (not likely at this point in time, but...) every at bat of the season,
there's no guarantee that he's going to hit one the next time he's up to bat.
Pete.
Andy Patrizio
Whoops. Just when you think you know someone... :-)
No offense meant, Jesse. Just trying to rationalize in the midst of
irrational flamethrowing.
Andy Patrizio
>And hardly even that. Why? Because I watch a tape, when I have time,
>and then move on. I surely don't have the time to waste writing down
>information, developing a tapelist database, and then enter all of that
>into the program. If you and Herb do, God bless you.
I made the point because you were now descending into using his method of
keeping tapes as a means of attacking.
>And of course you cut him slack Andy. He has taken you under his wing here
>and I understand that. But you have to look at it like others do. We
>don't "cut him slack" like you do.
In case you've forgotten, I'm not siding with his defense of WCW.
>Yes, as a matter of fact I do. And I even do it in print (my newest
>Chairshots column) so you can't even say I do it behind his back.
>Meltzer does not respect Gordon, and he thinks he's mark. That cracks me
>up too.
So I stand corrected. You look down your nose at everyone.
>That's because until today, Herb has not mentioned about matches, only
>things he has no first hand knowledge of. Guess what? Most of us were
>scared to death by the chairs too Andy. And I suppose that we are the
>only fans in the world that have wanted to see a bad ref get hit.
Bad ref? well, I know AAA fans go ape when Tirantes (sp?) gets nailed.
But that's another story...
>I know. And Herb is a saint who did nothing to inspire me. Andy, I know
>you respect Herb, but playing Stimpy to his Ren is beyond unbecoming.
Get it into your head: he doesn't tell me what to think, do, or say, and
I do not follow him like a dog on a leash. I kept out of it when it was a
debate of wrestling. When the chairshots flew, I got in because no one
else would (Chewbacca, where the fuck are you?).
Andy Patrizio
> make the wrestlers feel really appreciated? Maybe next year I'll
> chant "Liger! Liger!" since I just want to support the guy and
> encourage SMW to bring him in. The only situation I can compare
Think I'll try that at a WWF show.
NOT.
> the arena for wrestling was history. Somebody (Mike? Dave?) told
> me that was not the case and I told Mike that he should probably
> revise his .sig (which had my quote) since I had been "straightened
> out." Then came Dave's mutant posting. That didn't only have an
> effect on me. Look at Andy.
Well, my feeling now is that I'd like to hit an ECW show, especially if
it hits NYC, but I won't go looking for the rsp-w contingent. I met Mike
Palij once, so he might remember what I look like, but other than that,
none of them know me. So if I meet wrestling fans in Boston (where I'm
moving to today), I'll just bring them along.
Dave Scherer
>left WCW in the first place. I know the shoulder injury was legit (talk of
>him retiring because of it for a short time). And I imagine he didn't like
>playing second fiddle to "old man" Steamboat. Other than that, I don't
>know exactly what his problem would be.
No, actually he liked and respected Steamboat. It was the company not
respecting him that led to him leaving.
> Ds> Where will Shane go? He teaches in Pittsburgh, so working a territory
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I know. He lives (or atleast did) about 20 minutes from where I do. Maybe
>it's time he makes a decision as to his priorities. There is no reason why
>he can't quit teaching now, then go back to it later.
Again, there is *nowhere* TO go, unless ECW runs a full schedule soon.
And I like the fact that rather than kiss ass, he left.
>Well, as I said before, this won't mean a lot to me until ECW gets better
>coverage. It seems interresting though, that Slamboree seemed to go over
>fairly well in ECW Country.
What went over well was Cactus Jack and Terry Funk. That explains it all.
TJ White
Ds> No, actually he liked and respected Steamboat. It was the company not
Ds> respecting him that led to him leaving.
Well, I had see a worked interview he did where he badmouthed Steamboat.
That, along with his complaining about the "Old" guys at WCW getting a push
and not him lead me to believe that he and Steamboat might not really be
getting along. I guess there were a few from the "old school" that he
thought should be pushed, but not many.
Ds> Again, there is *nowhere* TO go, unless ECW runs a full schedule soon.
Ds> And I like the fact that rather than kiss ass, he left.
I respect the fact that he had a little personal pride too. As I said, I
thought he was misused by WCW. On the other hand (playing devil's advocate
here), if I ran a federation that ran on a full-time schedule I don't know
if I'd push a guy who openly says he only wants to wrestle on the weekends
(courtesy of the Torch Interview). I mean, if the roles were reversed and
he wrestled full-time and was a substitute teacher, would the fact that he
was good at it warrent making him the principal??
Pete Barlow
> -=> Quoting Dsch...@acy1.digex.net to All <=-
> Ds> I don't know Shane's main criticism other than Flair was the champion
> Ds> of the other "so called" wrestling organization. And he was the
> Ds> booker there.
> Well, I kinda agree here. An active wrestler shouldn't be the primary
> booker. Especially when you could very well be the most likely candidate
> to lead the federation.
Mmmm... Dave's argument (or Shane's actually) would hold water if Flair was
booking WCW by the time Shane left, which he wasn't. As for Flair being active
and booking... it seems to me that there IS a way around it, but the way Flair
booked himself and then Hogan straight to the top makes a complete mockery of
the industry.
> I agree with him whole heartedly here. I HATE what they've done with
> Hogan. To the point that if Hogan does actually stay longer than Starcade
> I might quit watching WCW (Though, until ECW has the presence of mind to
> travel just a tad bit further west to Shane's hometown I don't exactly know
> what my options are).
If they could come even farther west to the Cincinnati/Dayton metro area, then
I'd be happy. Hell, I'd even make the trip to Columbus if they made it there.
I THINK SMW has made it that far north, but I didn't know about the show until
after the fact.
> But Douglas has been badmouthing WCW since he left
> there. That's been well over a year. As I said, Flair was in the WWF when
> he started badmouthing them. Maybe you could shed some light on why he
> left WCW in the first place. I know the shoulder injury was legit (talk of
> him retiring because of it for a short time). And I imagine he didn't like
> playing second fiddle to "old man" Steamboat. Other than that, I don't
> know exactly what his problem would be.
See the interview Chris Palacios put up between Wade Keller (thankfully
non-existent in said interview) and Douglas from last year. Douglas was mostly
not happy with being underpaid and underpushed for the amount of GOOD work he
(and Steamboat) did, compared to the overpush and overpay people like Erik
Watts got for BAD wrestling.
> Ds> Where will Shane go? He teaches in Pittsburgh, so working a territory
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I know. He lives (or atleast did) about 20 minutes from where I do. Maybe
> it's time he makes a decision as to his priorities. There is no reason why
> he can't quit teaching now, then go back to it later.
If I'm not mistaken, he's probably not making a grand bit of money doing either
one or the other... the cost of living being what it is these days, even in a
backwater town like Oxford, isn't really conducive to a minimal income.
Financially, it's probably in Shane's best interests to continue doing both.
> Ds> is out. He hates WCW, and Titan, because of their styles. Where can
> Ds> he go? If ECW takes off, he'll be there when they need him.
> Well, as I said before, this won't mean a lot to me until ECW gets better
> coverage. It seems interresting though, that Slamboree seemed to go over
> fairly well in ECW Country.
Yes, but remove Terry Funk (and his fabulous match with Tully Blanchard) and
Kevin Sullivan from the card, and look again. There isn't much left to cheer
about... ESPECIALLY considering that the main event wasn't announced until the
day BEFORE the event itself.
> Ds> I LOVE shoot interviews. Because Titan and WCW are afraid to do them,
> Ds> they are wrong? I disagree.
> I'm not saying that they are wrong. Clearly WCW and Vinnie are terrified
> at the thought of doing anything that what fan base they have left might
> object to. I'm not 100% certain all of this is Flair's doing though.
> Flair may be the booker, but how much creative control does he REALLY have?
Again, the thought here is that Flair books, but all ideas must be run through
Bischoff, unless they pertain to Hogan, in which case BOTH Hogan and Bischoff
must give the okay. So in a sense, it is still booking by committee.
> There were rumors floating around before Flair took the job that several
> other people were up for the position (Terry Funk, Jerry Jarrett, etc.).
Yeah, but just as in other sports, that's nothing to drop your jaw about. When
teams go out hiring for head coaches, their lists of prospects are almost
always longer than just one person. Funk turned it down because he didn't want
to work under Bischoff; Jarrett turned it down in favour of continuing his
already badly active deal with the WWF.
> My point is that
> McMahon has built a federation on lame angles and screwjob endings.
> Bischoff is clearly a McMahon wannabe. Does Flair have enough control to
> tell Bischoff no to his stupid angles. Bischoff did some comments for Dave
> Madden in the Pittsburgh Post Gazzette where he said that Hogan would be
> the best thing that could ever happen to WCW (before he even signed).
> Flair didn't seem quite as optomistic saying that the best WWF worker in
> recent times was clearly Shawn Michaels.
Yes, but that's not what Bischoff wants. He wants somebody that is ultimately
synonymous with the other league. He got that... and with it all the problems
the other league had with him the last time he actively worked for them.
> I'm not saying Flair is a great
> booker. I'm not even saying he's DECENT (though he's had his moments with
> the Cactus Jack/Sullivan/Payne v. Nasty feud). But, I'm not sure ANYBODY
> could book well in the system Bischoff's created.
Honestly, if I could buy out WCW from Ted, the first three people against the
wall are Dhue, Bischoff, and Rogowski.
Pete.
Pete Barlow
> dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) writes:
>>And of course you cut him slack Andy. He has taken you under his wing here
>>and I understand that. But you have to look at it like others do. We
>>don't "cut him slack" like you do.
> In case you've forgotten, I'm not siding with his defense of WCW.
On the other hand, he's not really defending WCW. He's just not attacking them
outright like everybody else is doing. There is a difference between defending
and not attacking. If you WERE siding with Herb in regards to WCW, you would
be taking a "wait-and-see" attitude of it as he is, which is neither a defense
nor an attack.
>>Yes, as a matter of fact I do. And I even do it in print (my newest
>>Chairshots column) so you can't even say I do it behind his back.
>>Meltzer does not respect Gordon, and he thinks he's mark. That cracks me
>>up too.
> So I stand corrected. You look down your nose at everyone.
Only those who run on and on about things they know nothing about. Hey, we all
do that from time to time, and we've all taken our medicine for it. But what
Dave's not too hot about is that the person who SHOULD be taking the medicine
this time isn't. I've been wrong before; I've run my mouth about things I know
nothing or little about, but if nothing else, history will show that I admit my
mistakes and correct myself; yes, I take my medicine like a good little boy,
and I don't kvetch about it.
>>That's because until today, Herb has not mentioned about matches, only
>>things he has no first hand knowledge of. Guess what? Most of us were
>>scared to death by the chairs too Andy. And I suppose that we are the
>>only fans in the world that have wanted to see a bad ref get hit.
> Bad ref? well, I know AAA fans go ape when Tirantes (sp?) gets nailed.
> But that's another story...
Can you say Teddy Long? Sure. I knew you could. It's called revamping an
angle. It's been done many times before, and it'll be done many times yet
again.
>>I know. And Herb is a saint who did nothing to inspire me. Andy, I know
>>you respect Herb, but playing Stimpy to his Ren is beyond unbecoming.
> Get it into your head: he doesn't tell me what to think, do, or say, and
> I do not follow him like a dog on a leash. I kept out of it when it was a
> debate of wrestling. When the chairshots flew, I got in because no one
> else would (Chewbacca, where the fuck are you?).
Because he's figured out that Herb's a big boy now, and should be able to
defend his own thoughts. Hardly anybody else on this group gets any defense
when they're wrong and they draw some serious flamage...
And before anybody thinks otherwise, I'm not stepping up to the plate here for
Dave. The only flag I fly, the only colours I wear, and the only side I'm on
is mine and mine alone. If I thought Dave was full of shit on this topic,
you'd better believe I'd be up here telling him just that.
As it is, I think all of you need to read the part in the Welcome posting about
what you post being relevant to the group... did ALL OF US need to read this
back and forth flamage? Jesus. At this point, almost everybody who's been
involved with this thread is acting ultra-childish, to the extreme of sounding
like total and complete Internet newbies. Please, take it to e-mail.
ObWrestling: Rented Royal Rumble 1994 tonight. I agree with everybody who
said this show sucked, and though I wouldn't have walked out on it like Andy
did, as I'm one of those who actually like to stay for the whole show, I
certainly wouldn't have come away happy either. (Okay, so Andy got tossed.
Big difference. The point is the same.)
Pete.
Chewbacca
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>
>> Andy, what do you say? Fanweek next year? (Assuming the special
>> talent meets with your satisfaction)
>
>To be honest, I'm hoping to accumulate enough frequent flier miles for a
>round trip to Tokyo. With all the travel my job has me doing, that's possible.
>:-) By next summer I'll have vacation time and hopefully the miles.
Hey, Andy, I'll meet you there. With anyluck I'll be there for about
a year (maybe 3) teaching. (Goddamn, 3 years of *good* wrestling, and
on free TV yet! Fuck Vince and Jerk^H^H^H^HBischoff!!!)
C.
--
Email to: mdme...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Flame away, I'm Superman!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other night I was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, and I wondered,
"Where the fuck is my ROOF ?!?"
Chewbacca
>dsch...@acy1.digex.net (Dave Scherer) writes:
>
>Get it into your head: he doesn't tell me what to think, do, or say, and
>I do not follow him like a dog on a leash. I kept out of it when it was a
>debate of wrestling. When the chairshots flew, I got in because no one
>else would (Chewbacca, where the fuck are you?).
**Lenny mode on**
I'n not supposed to say notting to no one
**Lenny mode off**
I have seen very little of ECW (the triangular match, one other, and a
few interview segments) so I can't really give an opinion either way.
I've liked what matches I've seen is all I can say. As for the mutants,
you never know, I just may be one (hey, I can see myself getting caught
up in the excitement if I was ther live, but that's just me and only me.
I speak for myself). So how far is Philly from Toronto? :)
**ECW Lenny mutant mode on**
I killed dat Mikey Whipwreck dead. I got to hide dat Mikey Whipwreck.
**ECW Lenny mutant mode off**
Greg Gershowitz
>And as i said before, that was the initial plan. You just may see Gordon
>piss on the title and never even care about it.
Well, there was no mention of Shane being the NWA champ at the TV
taping.
-Greg G
--
I don't need speed, I don't need weed, I get my kicks the right way - NATURL
"You're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're still wrong." -
my very own net.credo
I think we're all bozos on this bus.