You know, Hogan still can't wrestle
J.J. Perry
Just a few of observations.
1. With Hogan's heel turn, we can be assured that for the next couple
of years, we are going to have to deal with Hulk Hogan in PPV and
Nitro main events. Have his wrestling skills gotten any better
than when he was a face? As a heel, instead of no-selling, he'll
just be poorly-selling.
2. Is this angle genius? Did Bischoff really surprise us? Go back
in the newsgroup and to all the different hotlines and sheets and
websites and see how many people speculated on Hogan as the third
man. I was surprised (and pleased) by the turn, but shocked? By
his interview, yes. But we were already prepared for any possibility,
including a Hogan turn. Had Shawn Michaels or Undertaker come over,
that would have been an angle truly "genius." When half of RSPW
guesses it might be Hogan, it ain't genius.
3. Hogan and Bischoff now have legions of fans, apparently. Just
remember whose egos have destroyed countless good angles and matches.
One good move makes either of these two "genius."
Now that that's out of the way, great angle. Can't wait to see how
it plays out. That must be one helluva payday that Hogan is risking
backlash on his merchandising, his restaurants and his movie "career."
J. J.
"BLUESTIME!" http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jjperry
"Talk about your psalms, talk about John 3:16 ...
well Austin 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!"
--Stone Cold Steve Austin
Todd "The Bod" Zimmerman
That must be one helluva payday that Hogan is risking
> backlash on his merchandising, his restaurants and his movie "career."
>
>
What you gonna do brutha, when 350 pounds of fat crashs down on you???
Todd "The Bod" Zimmerman
Frank Klemm
J.J. Perry (jjp...@indiana.edu) wrote:
: Just a few of observations.
: 1. With Hogan's heel turn, we can be assured that for the next couple
: of years, we are going to have to deal with Hulk Hogan in PPV and
: Nitro main events. Have his wrestling skills gotten any better
: than when he was a face? As a heel, instead of no-selling, he'll
: just be poorly-selling.
: 2. Is this angle genius? Did Bischoff really surprise us? Go back
: in the newsgroup and to all the different hotlines and sheets and
: websites and see how many people speculated on Hogan as the third
: man. I was surprised (and pleased) by the turn, but shocked? By
: his interview, yes. But we were already prepared for any possibility,
: including a Hogan turn. Had Shawn Michaels or Undertaker come over,
: that would have been an angle truly "genius." When half of RSPW
: guesses it might be Hogan, it ain't genius.
: 3. Hogan and Bischoff now have legions of fans, apparently. Just
: remember whose egos have destroyed countless good angles and matches.
: One good move makes either of these two "genius."
: Now that that's out of the way, great angle. Can't wait to see how
: it plays out. That must be one helluva payday that Hogan is risking
: backlash on his merchandising, his restaurants and his movie "career."
: J. J.
: "BLUESTIME!" http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jjperry
: "Talk about your psalms, talk about John 3:16 ...
: well Austin 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!"
: --Stone Cold Steve Austin
:
And with that I say Amen my brother. I can't believe how many people have
marked out to Hogan. Someone even said that he was willing to give up the
spotlight. To have a 7 minute speech after a match at ringside is giving
up the spotlight!?
Just remember, Hogan is still 157, he hasn't gained anymore moves by
becoming heel (a common myth that you become a better wrestler by
turning heel, and lose skills by turning face). He still had to use the leg
drop, the same leg drop that has been joked about for so long, last
night. He still has a no-job clause in his contract.
I will grant Eric Bischoff has a great (and that may be putting it mildly)
angle. However I think to admit you like Hogan now for turning is to
admit you're simply a heel mark. For everyone to have taunted him all
these years, and now to like him simply because of his turn? Should WCW
just decide to make everyone a heel?
It's easy to slam a face, it seems, if he is a no-seller, now let's see it
we can be fair and do the same for a heel. Me, I'll still root for
Malenko, Benoit or Gurrero over Hulk anyday.
Doug Roussel
Frank Klemm (fjk...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: Just remember, Hogan is still 157, he hasn't gained anymore moves by
: turning heel, and lose skills by turning face). He still had to use the leg
: drop, the same leg drop that has been joked about for so long, last
: night. He still has a no-job clause in his contract.
But how many monster heels in wrestling have more than 2 or 3 moves?
Just look at all the no-working stiffs who've been very over as heels:
Sid, Undertaker, Diesel, the Giant. Even Vader doesn't really move
around the ring much, at least not like he used to. IMO, the only role
for big, slow-moving stiffs who don't have a lot of wrestling finesse is
that of a monster heel. The whole indestructable bit that has been Hogan's
bread and butter for the last 12 years is tailor made for a heel. Fans
don't like the forces of good to be that powerful, as it kills all the
suspense of the storyline. Just pick up any fantasy paperback and 99%
you'll find that evil is always more powerful than good until the 11th
hours when good finally squeaks out a victory. It's in the American psyche
to root for the underdog.
BTW, I've always thought that the rule of thumb was that your wrestling
ability goes down when you turn heel, since the display of good wrestling
technique will tend to make people cheer for you, and since heels are
supposed to win over top faces by cheating, not by techical ability.
In Hogan's case, I think it's a moot point. I can't see his workrate
changing one way or the other. It certainly can't get much worse, and
it's just too late in his career to add any more moves to his repertoire.
But the beauty of Hogan-as-heel is that he doesn't need to change. He's
got all the moves he needs to have as a monster heel.
: It's easy to slam a face, it seems, if he is a no-seller, now let's see it
: we can be fair and do the same for a heel. Me, I'll still root for
: Malenko, Benoit or Gurrero over Hulk anyday.
As you should, if you pull for good wrestlers despite their heel/face
status. No one is saying Hogan is a better wrestler or better seller
now that he's a heel. It was just a great turn and a great way to
play out the Invasion angle, and that's why everyone is praising Hogan
now.
Doug
jlmo...@eos.ncsu.edu
/Now that that's out of the way, great angle. Can't wait to see how
/it plays out. That must be one helluva payday that Hogan is risking
/backlash on his merchandising, his restaurants and his movie "career."
Here's what's gonna happen: Since Hogan has only 3 more PPV's on contract,
for the last one he's going to put his career on the line in a 3-man
tag NWO vs. WCW. He'll get pinned, but after the match Hall and Nash will
beat the horseshit out of team wcw, jackknifing and edging them over and
over. Hogan will sit in one corner and watch with a stupid look on his
face and seemingly realize that all this was wrong and attack the outsiders
reestablishing him as a face as he retires and saving the Thanksgiving
relaease of his new movie. The end.
--
Jeremy Moore
http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jlmoore3/www/index.html
Frank Klemm
: But how many monster heels in wrestling have more than 2 or 3 moves?
: Just look at all the no-working stiffs who've been very over as heels:
: Sid, Undertaker, Diesel, the Giant. Even Vader doesn't really move
: around the ring much, at least not like he used to. IMO, the only role
: for big, slow-moving stiffs who don't have a lot of wrestling finesse is
: that of a monster heel. The whole indestructable bit that has been Hogan's
: bread and butter for the last 12 years is tailor made for a heel. Fans
: don't like the forces of good to be that powerful, as it kills all the
: suspense of the storyline. Just pick up any fantasy paperback and 99%
: you'll find that evil is always more powerful than good until the 11th
: hours when good finally squeaks out a victory. It's in the American psyche
: to root for the underdog.
Actually, excuse me if I get off the subject for a second. One of my pet
peeves of WCW is that the "11th hour" doesn't ever seem to come in a lot
of cases. While I loved Ric Flair struting and attacking Macho Man for a
while, isn't it about time to end this whole angle. And perhaps it makes
me somewhat of a mark (but then again, we all have some mark in us), but
I would have like to have seen Macho get the best of Flair (and not just in
dark matches either).
: BTW, I've always thought that the rule of thumb was that your wrestling
: ability goes down when you turn heel, since the display of good wrestling
: technique will tend to make people cheer for you, and since heels are
: supposed to win over top faces by cheating, not by techical ability.
: In Hogan's case, I think it's a moot point. I can't see his workrate
: changing one way or the other. It certainly can't get much worse, and
: it's just too late in his career to add any more moves to his repertoire.
: But the beauty of Hogan-as-heel is that he doesn't need to change. He's
: got all the moves he needs to have as a monster heel.
I was sort of basing this on the reaction of Shawn Micheals. It seemed
while he was a heel everyone praised his wrestling ability, as a face the
critisms of him having only the superkick as a finisher have come up.
Maybe though I overgeneralized on that "rule".
:: It's easy to slam a face, it seems, if he is a no-seller, now let's
:: see ift
:: we can be fair and do the same for a heel. Me, I'll still root for
:: Malenko, Benoit or Gurrero over Hulk anyday.
: As you should, if you pull for good wrestlers despite their heel/face
: status. No one is saying Hogan is a better wrestler or better seller
: now that he's a heel. It was just a great turn and a great way to
: play out the Invasion angle, and that's why everyone is praising Hogan
: now.
: Doug
Great turn? Yes indeed
Great angle? Yes, but then again why does Hogan get to be the center of
praise. If you really like the angle the one you should cheer for is (god
forbid, I'm saying this) Eric Bischoff.
While I understand the acclaim of the turn, do you simply ignore the
messagers and just listen to the message. I guess what I'm trying to say,
is that if we're going to support or trash wrestling simply for angles
then the outsiders may as well be Barry Horiwitz, Mario Mancini, and Iron
Mike Sharpe (and throw Jamison in as a manager while we're at it).
Let's just play a little "what if" if you may. Let's say Lex Luger was
indeed the one that turned on Sunday Night. Alright, perhaps that takes
away the element of surprise, and you wouldn't of had that nice pile of
cups on the mat that night. However the Outsiders would have most likely
retained their monster heel status, and you could say you had three
decent (not great or super, mind you) technical wrestlers for the Outsiders.
Now let's say the the third outsider was the immortal Hacksaw Jim Duggan.
How would that effect the angle? While it may have caused some to say
"that's all I can handle", it seems based on what I've read here the last
couple of days, we would still have the "Give up Mcmahon" posts, we would
still have the "Eric's a Genious" posts, and chances are we would have "I
have new respect for Duggan" and "HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" posts instead of
the pro Hogan ones we have now (Although it would be funny to hear what
DugganFan1 would have to say, I admit).
You made a good point about stiffs being good heels (although
then again, there's Mabel, Lochness, Ultimate Soultion and Diesel being a
stiff? :) ) and I admit, I been close to marking out on the Outsiders
angle. But with Hogan in there I just can't. After all these years, I can't
side with him simply because he's a heel.
Oh yeah, line of the week, "This portion of WCW Monday Nitro is being
brought to you by the Outsiders and Hulk Hogan", that alone almost made me
jump the bandwagon.
But enough of my ramblings...
Frank
********************************************
THANK YOU SCI-FI!
MST3K returns Feb. 1997!
Doug Roussel
Frank Klemm (fjk...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: Actually, excuse me if I get off the subject for a second. One of my pet
: of cases. While I loved Ric Flair struting and attacking Macho Man for a
: while, isn't it about time to end this whole angle. And perhaps it makes
: me somewhat of a mark (but then again, we all have some mark in us), but
: I would have like to have seen Macho get the best of Flair (and not just in
: dark matches either).
I dunno, I'd have to say that while it is good for most angles/feuds to
be wrapped up nice and neat inside of 6 months or so, there's
nothing wrong with an occasional long-term rivalry in which one participant
or the other doesn't get the decisive upper hand, as long as feuds aren't
just dropped with no explanation and treated like nothing ever happened
a year later. Some of the best feuds ever have gone on for years:
Dusty vs the Andersons or the Horsemen, Freebirds vs. Von Erichs, etc.
: I was sort of basing this on the reaction of Shawn Micheals. It seemed
: while he was a heel everyone praised his wrestling ability, as a face the
: critisms of him having only the superkick as a finisher have come up.
: Maybe though I overgeneralized on that "rule".
I don't think the change in Shawn as a face was his workrate as much as
his McMahonization. Vince makes his top faces pander to the fans too much,
which leads to overexposure and causes people to judge them more harshly than
they did before the wrestler was a hot commodity. Michael Jackson isn't
less talented than he used to be, it's just that after years of having his
music pushed upon the public, people are sick of him. That, and he has
a curious fondness for small boys. ;oI
: Great turn? Yes indeed
: Great angle? Yes, but then again why does Hogan get to be the center of
: praise. If you really like the angle the one you should cheer for is (god
: forbid, I'm saying this) Eric Bischoff.
Yes, I'm sure that Hogan went into the angle kicking and screaming, so
Eric does deserve credit for that and for setting up the Outsiders
angle to make Hogan's turn make perfect sense. Still, few wrestlers
would have gotten the response Hogan did for turning heel.
: While I understand the acclaim of the turn, do you simply ignore the
: messagers and just listen to the message. I guess what I'm trying to say,
: is that if we're going to support or trash wrestling simply for angles
: then the outsiders may as well be Barry Horiwitz, Mario Mancini, and Iron
: Mike Sharpe (and throw Jamison in as a manager while we're at it).
Like anything, it's a combination of the performers and the material that
makes the angle work. Eraser or True Lies wouldn't have been nearly
as effective if Sylvester Stallone or Stephen Segal, or even Jack Nicholson,
would have been in the lead roles. Even though Arnie is far from the
best actor in the world, he's able to make ridiculous material like that
work effectively, whereas more capable actors would come across looking
foolish. There are legions of better workers than Hogan, but few of them
would have gotten the reaction Hogan did for the turn in the Outsiders angle.
: Now let's say the the third outsider was the immortal Hacksaw Jim Duggan.
: How would that effect the angle? While it may have caused some to say
: "that's all I can handle", it seems based on what I've read here the last
: couple of days, we would still have the "Give up Mcmahon" posts, we would
: still have the "Eric's a Genious" posts, and chances are we would have "I
: have new respect for Duggan" and "HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" posts instead of
: the pro Hogan ones we have now (Although it would be funny to hear what
: DugganFan1 would have to say, I admit).
I don't think so, because Duggan is one of those wrestlers that no one
really feels that strongly about one way or the other. Sure, a lot of
people think he should hang it up and retire, but he has enough of a
low profile that is presense doesn't really take away from the overall
WCW that much, other than an occasional 5-minute undercard match that usually
ends with him taping his fist. Hogan, on the other hand, is the wrestler
that non-mark fans love to hate, not just because of his shoddy ring work, but
his ego, his unwillingness to sell even the moves that destroy other top
wrestlers, and the stranglehold he's had on booking main events. I hate
watching Hogan as a face because there is no suspense in it. I know the
matches will either end in a screwjob, a DoD runin, or the big boot/legdrop
combo. But I for one am curious to see Hogan as a heel. Will he still
be indestructable? Can he Hulk-up as a heel? With the apparent erosion of
his booking power (otherwise, I doubt he'd agreed to the turn), I seriously
don't know what to expect in a Hogan match anymore, except for very few
wrestling holds. :)
: You made a good point about stiffs being good heels (although
: then again, there's Mabel, Lochness, Ultimate Soultion and Diesel being a
: stiff? :) ) and I admit, I been close to marking out on the Outsiders
: angle. But with Hogan in there I just can't. After all these years, I can't
: side with him simply because he's a heel.
I've seen fat slob wrestlers like Mabel and Lochness used effectively before.
One Man Gang, Bundy, Big Bubba, and others were intimidating heels in
Mid-South/UWF despite their lack of ability. It's all in how you build
them up.
Doug
Frank Klemm
Well after a week of reading and posting, I think perhaps the best thing
to do here is call a truce of sources.
When I wrote my first posting on Monday, my main target tended to be
"HOGAN F**KEN RULES" people, the people that simply marked Hogan for a
heel turner and had no ground or defense for previous bashing of Hogan and
now praising him.
Besides good responses from Doug, I also read the posts between Jeff
Amdur and Rick Scalia (sp?). And while I can't say I totally agree with
either Jeff or Doug, I will say both have set their reason of defending
the angle, and in both cases they were well done.
So I guess while I'm not too thrilled of Hulk of being the third guy
I will relucantly support the angle. As bad as Hulk was demonized, the facts
also are that there are wrestlers as stiff or worse out there. Besides if
Hulk hogs the scene and if no sells the way he's done, my guess is that
he and WCW will pay for it in here and in the ratings (I try'll to put in a
word if this happens).
Furthermore, while there's one of end of stupidity, that being liking
Hogan and Hogan only, simply because of his turn without any regard to his
past, on the other end of it is the total refusal to acknowledge the
angle because Hogan was involved. While I would like to think I wasn't that
far down the latter end, perhaps I was being a tad too exculsionary to the
angle because of Hogan. This is not the first good angle to involve a lousy
wrestler, nor will it be the last. So in the end, I think think there is a
way to acknowledge the angle, and yes maybe some credit is due to Hogan,
but you do not to have recognize Hogan as a better wrestler for it.
Now hopefully having said this, and having Hulk "turn over a new leaf", Mr.
Bollea will be able to play his part well in this angle. Hopefully he'll
allow Nash and Hall to have some of the focus as well. If the Outsiders
are indeed set to win the world title, if he would allow Nash or Hall to
win, then I would be really impressed.
Then again, he may just use the ways of his past, and even worse turn
back, saying he was a spy.
But perhaps the biggest reason to let into this angle, is to simply enjoy
it. It's not like we're talking Hogan was an murderer or rapist here, and
thus deeming concrete refusal to support the angle. And while I have morals
that I hold on to whether popular or not, we're only talking pro wrestling
here. As long as if you don't flame or bash someone in the process, what
difference will it make if we're on the wrong side of the issue months
from now. If you're on the right side, consider it a plus for you,
otherwise you'll still live on for another day.
So while I still wish Lugar was the third guy, let's see how this plays
out. It just might be pretty good.
But enough of my ramblings...
Frank
********************************************
THANK YOU SCI-FI!
MST3K returns Feb. 1997!
"Christ is cool"- Beavis
********************************************