WWF World Title Thoughts
Rick Scaia
In my opinion, there's a lot to be discussed regarding the WWF's current
World Title situation... and not much of it is good.
First off... I was stunned and amazed at the general positive reaction of
so-called "smart fans" to the title victory of Yokozuna at KotR. I've
never tried to make Hulk Hogan out as anything more than a great
personality and a great draw; but anyone has to be able to acknowledge
that whatever level you'd place Hulk Hogan at in the wrestling heirarchy,
Yokozuna would have to be many rungs lower.
Yokozuna as a gimmick hasn't worked at all, as far as I can tell. Rodney
Anoia as a wrestler doesn't work at all, as far as I can tell. This is a
deadly combination... he doesn't put on a good show in the ring, and won't
even draw too many fans who would want to see him lose. He's gotten little
heat, and doesn't have the potential to get much more... unlike someone
like, oh, let's say, Bam Bam Bigelow (who is also a big man, but who
actually has some discernable talent), who can interview like a monster
heel, pull off mosterly deeds (not like cutting Tatanka's hair, although
that was decent), and in general spite the fans into coming to cheer
against him. I think Vince tried to push Yoko to the front on the power of
one idea: that the fans would buy into a Japan-US feud big time. Like me,
most fans don't seem to care.
Next... If Yoko sucks, who would have been the logical champ for the
summer?? Why, Hulk Hogan, of course. But he's decided to leave, at least
as of today. Assuming his departure is primarily because he didn't want to
have to do a clean job for Bret Hart at SummerSlam, I can declare his
decision a big mistake, and a big loss for the WWF. First of all, by
leaving Hogan has given up the only positive publicity he'd likely have
received for his upcoming movie and TV show; he's taken himself out of the
spot light, and lost the inevitable clips and plugs that Vince would have
given him on TV. Big mistake for Hogan.
And the WWF is literally in chaos. Unlike the similarly disgraceful title
reign of Sgt. Slaughter (who had the one attribute Yoko lacks: an ability
to draw heat), there is now obvious and interesting feud in the works. The
primary challenger (and arguably the federation's top draw) has left. That
means that the feud for the summer is going to be hastily arranged at the
Stars and Stripe Challenge. And I have a sinking feeling we're going to
have a monster push for Crush shoved in our faces. This might bring about
the first WWF PPV when not even the marks gave a damn about the main event
(even though there is plenty of promising stuff apparently lined up for
SummerSlam on the undercard). Take a champion who no one believes should
be there in the first place and add a challenger who is only a bit better
off in the fans eyes (I mean, Crush has been jobbing for Doink), and the
result is disaster. Which brings me to Point #3...
Thirdly... Can the WWF make something interesting out of this afterall??
Well, there are a few possibilities; and it will have to all take place
this Sunday. Option 1 would be to get Hogan back; not many of you would
appreciate this, I know, but it would salvage the value of the WWF World
Title if Hogan could get it back at SummerSlam. Keeping in mind that the
ultimate goal is to get Bret Hart back on top, it seems clear that the WWF
has time to burn (with Bret tied up with Lawler), and would need to get the
title into the hands of someone other than Yoko. Hogan could either hold
the belt long enough to drop it to Bret, or lose it to someone Bret could
hook up with at a later date... doesn't matter. Option 2 would be to
surprise us with a heel stepping forward to answer the challenge. I'm
thinking of Lex Luger here... think about it. He's strong enough, he's
over enough, and it wouldn't necessarily be a permanent turn. He could be
semi-face, defending his country's honor and all, face Yoko, win the belt,
then go back to being a true heel. Then he could face Bret at Survivor
Series for the title. If I believed Razor Ramon had the strength, this
could possibly be a great way to get him over as a big face. But I still
really like the idea of semi-turning Lex.
Option 3 would be bringing in someone not currently in the WWF who is not
only really strong, but also incredibly popular or well known. I can only
think of one man who fits this bill: Jim "Ultimate Warrior" Hellwig. And
since this is utterly impossible given the relationship of Hellwig and the
WWF, and since Hellwig isn't really known for his great work, this isn't an
idea I see as going over to well (or even being possible). However,
Hellwing is better than Crush and Yoko put together, so I'm almost hoping
Jim and Vince kiss and make up. :)
I know I can't be the only one who thinks that the WWF Title has been
incredibly devalued (from a markish viewpoint), and the title situation
garners little interest (from both a markish and smart viewpoint). Crush
isn't the answer... Hulk Hogan might be... I think turning Lex Luger
would really work. I have a feeling we'll know if the WWF intends to
follow this destructive path, or if they've got something up their sleeve,
on Sunday. Till then all discussion is moot. After then, we can all have
a field day either ripping apart or praising Vince's angle for his most
prestigious title.
Later...
--
Rick Scaia | "How's come there ain't no dang
Ex-World Wrestling Federation Ring Boy | needle in my dang Pepsi?!?!??"
cm...@cleveland.freenet.edu | - Dave Letterman
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Barlow
> In my opinion, there's a lot to be discussed regarding the WWF's current
> World Title situation... and not much of it is good.
> First off... I was stunned and amazed at the general positive reaction of
> so-called "smart fans" to the title victory of Yokozuna at KotR. I've
> never tried to make Hulk Hogan out as anything more than a great
> personality and a great draw; but anyone has to be able to acknowledge
> that whatever level you'd place Hulk Hogan at in the wrestling heirarchy,
> Yokozuna would have to be many rungs lower.
Actually, I'd put the two at about dead even in terms of wrestling ability.
> Yokozuna as a gimmick hasn't worked at all, as far as I can tell. Rodney
> Anoia as a wrestler doesn't work at all, as far as I can tell. This is a
> deadly combination... he doesn't put on a good show in the ring, and won't
> even draw too many fans who would want to see him lose. He's gotten little
> heat, and doesn't have the potential to get much more... unlike someone
> like, oh, let's say, Bam Bam Bigelow (who is also a big man, but who
> actually has some discernable talent), who can interview like a monster
> heel, pull off mosterly deeds (not like cutting Tatanka's hair, although
> that was decent), and in general spite the fans into coming to cheer
> against him. I think Vince tried to push Yoko to the front on the power of
> one idea: that the fans would buy into a Japan-US feud big time. Like me,
> most fans don't seem to care.
The gimmick has done what it's supposed to do: imply that JAPANESE wrestling
is better than AMERICAN wrestling. That became even more visible when Hogan
did a job at KotR... of course, Hogan *IS* America's number one babyface. :-)
As a wrestler, yes, Yokozuna stinks, but you can honestly same the same thing
about Hogan.
As far as heat goes, I have to agree. The heat Zuna has gotten has been
minimal at best. Why? Because it's always Fuji talking. Hogan drew very
little heat in his first stint in the WWF, but only because Fred Blassie did
all the talking for him then. Calaway didn't start drawing heat until he said
more than five words at an interview. That's just how things go.
> Next... If Yoko sucks, who would have been the logical champ for the
> summer?? Why, Hulk Hogan, of course. But he's decided to leave, at least
> as of today. Assuming his departure is primarily because he didn't want to
> have to do a clean job for Bret Hart at SummerSlam, I can declare his
> decision a big mistake, and a big loss for the WWF.
Well, for starters, the assumption is at most only half right. Hogan's
forthcoming TV show is the other obvious reason... and Vince, as has been
speculated by myself and others, may have caught on that Hogan simply isn't
drawing to the house shows anymore. The numbers that have been posted here
before are proof enough of that... and I DON'T think it has anything to do with
Bill Clinton's tax plan, either.
Hogan's departure is more of a good sign for the WWF than a bad one... it's one
more terrible worker out of the fold. Vince has shown us over the years that
he can come up with some doozy angles... now he's got to get the in-ring
product going again... and he's obviously taking steps toward that. The fans
were popping for Waltman during his second match with Hall on RAW two weeks
ago... and mainly they were popping at the big spots... You can bet you'll see
more of those if that reaction continues.
In response to your first question, though... the logical choice for champion
for the summer would have been Bret Hart.
> First of all, by
> leaving Hogan has given up the only positive publicity he'd likely have
> received for his upcoming movie and TV show; he's taken himself out of the
> spot light, and lost the inevitable clips and plugs that Vince would have
> given him on TV. Big mistake for Hogan.
This is the only thing that's made sense so far. Hogan choice to leave the
fold NOW is a bad move. "Predator" got plugged like mad when it came out, as
did "The Running Man." If it worked for Jesse... why wouldn't it work for
Hogan?
> And the WWF is literally in chaos. Unlike the similarly disgraceful title
> reign of Sgt. Slaughter (who had the one attribute Yoko lacks: an ability
> to draw heat), there is now obvious and interesting feud in the works. The
> primary challenger (and arguably the federation's top draw) has left. That
> means that the feud for the summer is going to be hastily arranged at the
> Stars and Stripe Challenge. And I have a sinking feeling we're going to
> have a monster push for Crush shoved in our faces. This might bring about
> the first WWF PPV when not even the marks gave a damn about the main event
> (even though there is plenty of promising stuff apparently lined up for
> SummerSlam on the undercard).
Makes sense again, but to a point. If Vince realises that the undercard is
going to be more interesting than the main event... guess what happens? He'll
switch the card around. Yokozuna-Crush will be stuck right before
intermission, as Flair-Savage was, and most likely the pending Lawler-Hart
match will be run last... because it's the one which can draw the most heat...
Unless of course they DO sign that MoneyLtd-Hall+Waltman match that looks ever
so tempting right now...
You see, Vince has a history of putting the biggest heat making match at the
end of the PPV. Hogan-Justice had the POTENTIAL to draw more heat than it
actually did at WM8... so he put it at the end, and it, of course, failed
miserably. Hart-Smith at last year's Slumber Scam was the same way, except it
worked. Same for Hogan-Zuna at WM9. (oh, yes, it drew heat... just mostly
negative) And Lawler's attack came... when? At the end of the card. Had they
had the finals earlier, and then had a match after that one, would Lawler's
attack have had an impact on the following match? Yes... that following match,
had there been one, would probably have been even more disappointing than any
of the OTHER undercard matches on the show.
The point is, if the undercard is good, they'll still come.
> Take a champion who no one believes should
> be there in the first place and add a challenger who is only a bit better
> off in the fans eyes (I mean, Crush has been jobbing for Doink), and the
> result is disaster. Which brings me to Point #3...
> Thirdly... Can the WWF make something interesting out of this afterall??
Well, probably not, but read on.
> Well, there are a few possibilities; and it will have to all take place
> this Sunday. Option 1 would be to get Hogan back; not many of you would
> appreciate this, I know, but it would salvage the value of the WWF World
> Title if Hogan could get it back at SummerSlam.
I think not. Were Hogan to get the title back AGAIN, it would only cement in
the eyes of the fans that Hogan all but OWNS the WWF title.
> Keeping in mind that the
> ultimate goal is to get Bret Hart back on top, it seems clear that the WWF
> has time to burn (with Bret tied up with Lawler), and would need to get the
> title into the hands of someone other than Yoko. Hogan could either hold
> the belt long enough to drop it to Bret, or lose it to someone Bret could
> hook up with at a later date... doesn't matter.
If Hogan won't job for Muta, what makes you think he'll job for Bret? Because
Vince says so? That's a laugh... Hogan has a history of ignoring promoters,
and Vince would probably never think of asking Hogan to job for Hart. As far
as losing the title to a temp who can drop to Hart, that's the function of
Zuna... name somebody ELSE qualified enough to do it... short list, ain't it?
> Option 2 would be to
> surprise us with a heel stepping forward to answer the challenge. I'm
> thinking of Lex Luger here... think about it. He's strong enough, he's
> over enough, and it wouldn't necessarily be a permanent turn. He could be
> semi-face, defending his country's honor and all, face Yoko, win the belt,
> then go back to being a true heel. Then he could face Bret at Survivor
> Series for the title. If I believed Razor Ramon had the strength, this
> could possibly be a great way to get him over as a big face. But I still
> really like the idea of semi-turning Lex.
This is promising... hadn't ever thought of this one...
> Option 3 would be bringing in someone not currently in the WWF who is not
> only really strong, but also incredibly popular or well known. I can only
> think of one man who fits this bill: Jim "Ultimate Warrior" Hellwig. And
> since this is utterly impossible given the relationship of Hellwig and the
> WWF, and since Hellwig isn't really known for his great work, this isn't an
> idea I see as going over to well (or even being possible). However,
> Hellwing is better than Crush and Yoko put together, so I'm almost hoping
> Jim and Vince kiss and make up. :)
And knowing Vince's past, that's not all they'd do... ;-)
But seriously... list o' nominees from outside the WWF include Ric Flair
(nope), One Man Gang (nope), John Studd (over the hill), Andre the Giant
(either dead or visiting Elvis), Atsushi Onita (just kidding), Road Warrior
Hawk (on the outs with Vince), Doug Furnas (not over in America), Van Vader
(works for somebody else), EITHER Steve Williams or Terry Gordy (pre-occupied
in a team in AJ), Mister Pogo (rent Dave's tapes... you'll figure out why not),
Sid Vicious (studied for urine test), Davey Boy Smith (jobbing for Bright-Boy
Vicious)... but that's just MY list, and none of those will happen anytime
soon.
> I know I can't be the only one who thinks that the WWF Title has been
> incredibly devalued (from a markish viewpoint), and the title situation
> garners little interest (from both a markish and smart viewpoint). Crush
> isn't the answer... Hulk Hogan might be... I think turning Lex Luger
> would really work. I have a feeling we'll know if the WWF intends to
> follow this destructive path, or if they've got something up their sleeve,
> on Sunday. Till then all discussion is moot. After then, we can all have
> a field day either ripping apart or praising Vince's angle for his most
> prestigious title.
I say we rip it apart.
Vince has been devaluing his title since Flair won it... being World champion
may not be as important in the WWF as it used to be.
---
Pete Barlow. pmba...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
CandyGuru on ICS-US and ICS-Denmark. pb71...@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu
RMJS75A on Prodigy. pmba...@apsvax.aps.muohio.edu
Real life sex symbol. pmba...@nextsrv.cas.muohio.edu
Rick Scaia
In a previous article, pmba...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Pete Barlow) says:
>In a previous article, cm...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rick Scaia) writes:
>> ...but anyone has to be able to acknowledge
>> that whatever level you'd place Hulk Hogan at in the wrestling heirarchy,
>> Yokozuna would have to be many rungs lower.
>
>Actually, I'd put the two at about dead even in terms of wrestling ability.
I don't get this... I've said it before that there seems to be an unfair
amount of anti-Hogan sentiment on RSPW. I tried not to breach that topic
again by criticizing Hogan's work, and saying he's a great draw, while
commenting on Yoko's lack of work ethic. Hogan was never, IMO, a disgrace
to his organization. Yokozuna as a champion is. Hogan made you think he
had actually worked to become the athelete that he was; Yoko only makes me
think that if I could pack on a few hundred more pounds, I too could hold a
World Title.
Let's put it this way: Hogan at least had the potential to wrestle above
**. Yoko doesn't.
>> Yokozuna as a gimmick hasn't worked at all, as far as I can tell...
>> He's gotten little
>> heat, and doesn't have the potential to get much more... unlike someone
>> like, oh, let's say, Bam Bam Bigelow (who is also a big man, but who
>> actually has some discernable talent), who can interview like a monster
>> heel, pull off monsterly deeds (not like cutting Tatanka's hair, although
>> that was decent), and in general spite the fans into coming to cheer
>> against him.
>
>The gimmick has done what it's supposed to do: imply that JAPANESE wrestling
>is better than AMERICAN wrestling. That became even more visible when Hogan
>did a job at KotR... of course, Hogan *IS* America's number one babyface. :-)
>As a wrestler, yes, Yokozuna stinks, but you can honestly same the same thing
>about Hogan.
I don't think it's accomplished _anything_. As soon as Vince realized just
how tasteless the Yoko-Duggan and toned it way down, he lost whatever he
might have accomplished. By focussing on "Yoko vs. the US," instead of
"Japan vs. the US," a lot has been lost. I'm not saying that's bad (since
the original angle was a bit on the racist side), just making an observation.
>As far as heat goes, I have to agree. The heat Zuna has gotten has been
>minimal at best. Why? Because it's always Fuji talking. Hogan drew very
>little heat in his first stint in the WWF, but only because Fred Blassie did
>all the talking for him then. Calaway didn't start drawing heat until he said
>more than five words at an interview. That's just how things go.
That's definitely part of it... I know I wouldn't mind seeing Yoko use a
least part of the fluent English we all know he speaks. He can be just as
big a "foriegn threat" as he is now... he'll just be able to convey just
how threatening he is. However, I don't think I'll suddenly jump on the
Yokozuna Fan Club band wagon just because the guy starts giving half way
decent interviews.
>> Next... If Yoko sucks, who would have been the logical champ for the
>> summer?? Why, Hulk Hogan, of course. But he's decided to leave, at least
>> as of today. Assuming his departure is primarily because he didn't want to
>> have to do a clean job for Bret Hart at SummerSlam, I can declare his
>> decision a big mistake, and a big loss for the WWF.
>
>Well, for starters, the assumption is at most only half right. Hogan's
>forthcoming TV show is the other obvious reason... and Vince, as has been
>speculated by myself and others, may have caught on that Hogan simply isn't
>drawing to the house shows anymore. The numbers that have been posted here
>before are proof enough of that... and I DON'T think it has anything to do with
>Bill Clinton's tax plan, either.
Actually, I've been starting to hear that it was Hogan's attempt to pull a
behind the scenes power play that may have triggered the whole thing. He
wanted to get more booking power, and Vince didn't flinch. So Hogan
walked. But I have to believe that if Hogan got more booking power,
there's now way he'd book himself into a clean job to Bret.
>Hogan's departure is more of a good sign for the WWF than a bad one... it's one
>more terrible worker out of the fold. Vince has shown us over the years that
>he can come up with some doozy angles... now he's got to get the in-ring
>product going again... and he's obviously taking steps toward that. The fans
>were popping for Waltman during his second match with Hall on RAW two weeks
>ago... and mainly they were popping at the big spots... You can bet you'll see
>more of those if that reaction continues.
By saying Hogan's departure is a good sign for the WWF, you seem to be
ignoring the whole point of my discussion on Hogan: that he is still over
with the fans, and that he would be a much more believable champion for the
WWF to have over the summer.
Now I agree that the time has come to phase Hogan out; especially if his
acting career does start to pan out and take him away from the sport. But
losing him while he's still a top man in the fed is not good in any way.
It jumbles up the angles for the next several months, and forces the
devaluation of the WWF Title by putting it in Yoko's hands. This isn't
good.
However, I'm extremely pleased by the way the fans have been buying into
Waltman as a top (?) guy. I loved the angle they ran. I love the fact
that this, combined with the top names for the future (Bret and Michaels),
seems to indicate a new path for the WWF. I never said "Let's let Hogan
reign as 'Immortal' into the next century." I just think he should have
been taken out at a more appropiate time (like a retirement match at the
next WrestleMania).
>In response to your first question, though... the logical choice for champion
>for the summer would have been Bret Hart.
Sure... if you ignore the events of WM9. But taking those as given, it
seems to me the WWF would have been a lot better off by leaving Hogan in
the top spot until something could be arranged for him to drop the title to
a deserving wrestler (via screwjob if necessary).
Yeah, but what scares me is that if Crush is the man, Vince will run some
kind of quick angle between the two that he thinks will draw heat (and
might from the marks), thus leaving us with a Yoko-Crush main event.
However, as I type this, it's sounding like Crush isn't going to be the
man, and that my speculation below (regarding Luger) is actually under
consideration.
>The point is, if the undercard is good, they'll still come.
And with the stuff lined up now, they should come in droves.
>> Take a champion who no one believes should
>> be there in the first place and add a challenger who is only a bit better
>> off in the fans eyes (I mean, Crush has been jobbing for Doink), and the
>> result is disaster. Which brings me to Point #3...
>> Thirdly... Can the WWF make something interesting out of this afterall??
>
>Well, probably not, but read on.
>
>> Well, there are a few possibilities; and it will have to all take place
>> this Sunday. Option 1 would be to get Hogan back; not many of you would
>> appreciate this, I know, but it would salvage the value of the WWF World
>> Title if Hogan could get it back at SummerSlam.
>
>I think not. Were Hogan to get the title back AGAIN, it would only cement in
>the eyes of the fans that Hogan all but OWNS the WWF title.
In our eyes, yes. In the marks eyes, no. They still, for the most part,
buy into Hulkamania. Sad, but in my experience of late, true.
>> Keeping in mind that the
>> ultimate goal is to get Bret Hart back on top, it seems clear that the WWF
>> has time to burn (with Bret tied up with Lawler), and would need to get the
>> title into the hands of someone other than Yoko. Hogan could either hold
>> the belt long enough to drop it to Bret, or lose it to someone Bret could
>> hook up with at a later date... doesn't matter.
>
>If Hogan won't job for Muta, what makes you think he'll job for Bret? Because
>Vince says so? That's a laugh... Hogan has a history of ignoring promoters,
>and Vince would probably never think of asking Hogan to job for Hart. As far
>as losing the title to a temp who can drop to Hart, that's the function of
>Zuna... name somebody ELSE qualified enough to do it... short list, ain't it?
He could job for anybody, as long as it's not a clean job.
Rick Scaia
He could job for anybody, as long as it's not a clean job. So that
probably does eliminate Bret from the list. But why not some one like a
Luger?? Works for me. Not that this discussion even matters anymore.
>> Option 2 would be to
>> surprise us with a heel stepping forward to answer the challenge. I'm
>> thinking of Lex Luger here... think about it. He's strong enough, he's
>> over enough, and it wouldn't necessarily be a permanent turn. He could be
>> semi-face, defending his country's honor and all, face Yoko, win the belt,
>> then go back to being a true heel. Then he could face Bret at Survivor
>> Series for the title. If I believed Razor Ramon had the strength, this
>> could possibly be a great way to get him over as a big face. But I still
>> really like the idea of semi-turning Lex.
>
>This is promising... hadn't ever thought of this one...
Well, it is apparently under consideration. However, the current WWF
scenario would be a permanent turn for Luger, which isn't quite as
promising in my book. Grooming him to take Hogan's place (as this move
would indicate, if it happens), is _not_ the path for the WWF to take with
Luger.
>> Option 3 would be bringing in someone not currently in the WWF who is not
>> only really strong, but also incredibly popular or well known.
>But seriously... list o' nominees from outside the WWF include Ric Flair
>(nope), One Man Gang (nope), John Studd (over the hill), Andre the Giant
>(either dead or visiting Elvis), Atsushi Onita (just kidding), Road Warrior
>Hawk (on the outs with Vince), Doug Furnas (not over in America), Van Vader
>(works for somebody else), EITHER Steve Williams or Terry Gordy (pre-occupied
>in a team in AJ), Mister Pogo (rent Dave's tapes... you'll figure out why not),
>Sid Vicious (studied for urine test), Davey Boy Smith (jobbing for Bright-Boy
>Vicious)... but that's just MY list, and none of those will happen anytime
>soon.
You added some of the obvious impossibilities I didn't bother pointing out.
But I find it interesting that you mention Steve Williams, who some people
(this according to Wade Keller) say has been mentioned as coming into the
WWF with a football gimmick and slamming Yoko. Might work... but the
Luger turn seems much more feasible right now.
>> I know I can't be the only one who thinks that the WWF Title has been
>> incredibly devalued (from a markish viewpoint), and the title situation
>> garners little interest (from both a markish and smart viewpoint). Crush
>> isn't the answer... Hulk Hogan might be... I think turning Lex Luger
>> would really work. I have a feeling we'll know if the WWF intends to
>> follow this destructive path, or if they've got something up their sleeve,
>> on Sunday. Till then all discussion is moot. After then, we can all have
>> a field day either ripping apart or praising Vince's angle for his most
>> prestigious title.
>
>I say we rip it apart.
>
>Vince has been devaluing his title since Flair won it... being World champion
>may not be as important in the WWF as it used to be.
The title hasn't been of any great value since WM9, IMO. Until then, you
had a great string of champs like Flair, Savage, and of course, Bret Hart.
Since then, we've had Yoko, Hogan, and Yoko again. Hogan I can buy...
Yoko as a two time champ, I cannot.
Later...
Eric Chmiel
>I don't get this... I've said it before that there seems to be an unfair
>amount of anti-Hogan sentiment on RSPW. I tried not to breach that topic
>again by criticizing Hogan's work, and saying he's a great draw, while
>commenting on Yoko's lack of work ethic. Hogan was never, IMO, a disgrace
>to his organization.
Yes, yes he was, and is. Since Hogan's returned, he's acted with total
contempt to wrestling and its fans. I've never seen a wrestler do that in
my life. His interviews are tongue-in-cheek. His matches....he's not even
trying. He's no Liger, but watch him work vs. Muta from May. Then watch
him vs. Yokozuna. I mean, he's taking it easy, IMO, because he thinks he's
such a big "star" thhat he doesn't need to take the wrestling business
seriously. He thinks the fans will adore him no matter what so he treats it
all as a big joke.
Now I hear that during the tag matches with Beefcake vs. Money Inc. at
house shows, Hogan's making a huge joke out of everythng. In Chicago, he
called Horace Grant of the Chicago Bulls out of the crowd to pin Ted DiBiase.
Now, that's really showing respect for your fellow wrestler, eh? But Hogan
just figures he's such a big star he can do anything and get away with it.
Then in Boston, Hogan left the apron *during the match* to chat with fans at
ringside.
To the contrary, I have never seen a man with such contempt for wrestling
and its fans. He mocks the business every time he gets into the ring or picks
up a mic. That, to me, is the biggest disgrace of anyone in wrestling.
>I don't think it's accomplished _anything_. As soon as Vince realized just
>how tasteless the Yoko-Duggan and toned it way down
He pulled he plug when stations refused to air the angle becuase of
complains from Japanese-Americans. Vince doesn't really care about taste.
>However, I'm extremely pleased by the way the fans have been buying into
>Waltman as a top (?) guy.
The Observer reports that Waltman is not drawing any heat in his matches
at house shows. People just seem to think of him as still being a jobber,
just one who got lucky vs. Ramon. That's unfortunate, because he's one of the
best workers in the WWF no doubt, but I think that outside of his underdog
angle with Ramon, it's going to be tough for a stick-man to be taken seriously
by fans of the WWF. Meltzer wrote that people said to him that it just goes
to show you how far the wrestling biz has fallen when a guy that small can get
a push in the WWF. I disagree, but that seems to be the prrevailing attitude
among many fans.
***********
Eric Chmiel
***********
Bob Rusbasan
> The gimmick has done what it's supposed to do: imply that JAPANESE wrestling
> is better than AMERICAN wrestling.
What a *shocking* implication! I bet everyone here is outraged that
Vince would run an angle with such a ridiculous implication! ;-)
> As far as heat goes, I have to agree. The heat Zuna has gotten has been
> minimal at best. Why? Because it's always Fuji talking. Hogan drew very
> little heat in his first stint in the WWF, but only because Fred Blassie did
> all the talking for him then.
Hogan's first stint was as a heel, and his second was as a face. It's
like comparing apples to oranges. The Blassie factor certainly wasn't
the only change, and perhaps not even the most significant one.
> Calaway didn't start drawing heat until he said
> more than five words at an interview. That's just how things go.
I *completely* disagree. The Undertaker gimmick was over with EVERYBODY
almost immediately, although the smart fans began to tire of Mark's
in-ring performance soon. In fact, at least one semi-mark I know
thinks that the Undertaker character was ruined by having him talk too
much.
In general, however, you are right. WCW would do well to realize that
fans have trouble caring for wrestlers that never get interviewed.
> This is the only thing that's made sense so far. Hogan choice to leave the
> fold NOW is a bad move. "Predator" got plugged like mad when it came out, as
> did "The Running Man." If it worked for Jesse... why wouldn't it work for
> Hogan?
Well, for starters, *Hogan* is starring in Mr. Nanny. Despite what Jesse
may want us to believe, Arnold Schwarzenegger starred in the other two
movies. I highly doubt that Jesse Ventura or the WWF's advertising was
more than a drop in the bucket.
> Makes sense again, but to a point. If Vince realises that the undercard is
> going to be more interesting than the main event... guess what happens? He'll
> switch the card around. Yokozuna-Crush will be stuck right before
> intermission, as Flair-Savage was, and most likely the pending Lawler-Hart
> match will be run last...
First, the original main event of WM8 was basically split into two matches,
since the WWF didn't want to have Hogan take the belt from, or lose
to, Flair. Of those two matches, I'd say the Hogan match was definitely
the main event. On the USA WM9 pre-show, the ENTIRE SHOW was dedicated
to hyping that match.
Second, I don't think that the undercard was going to be more interesting
than the Flair-Savage match, and I don't think Vince thought that either.
Those two were known for putting on good matches, and I'm sure Vince
expected them to put out for WM9.
> You see, Vince has a history of putting the biggest heat making match at the
> end of the PPV.
In the early years, he had the card build up in importance, with the
World title always on the line at the end. In the past few years,
he's seemingly been trying all sorts of crazy strategies, most notably
basically splitting the event into two mini-cards with an intermission
in the middle. I like the old style myself...
> The point is, if the undercard is good, they'll still come.
Probably. But it *is* pathetic if they can't interest anyone in the
main event. I would not be at all surprised if Vince drastically
switched things around before SummerSlam to give the World title
scene some heat.
> > I know I can't be the only one who thinks that the WWF Title has been
> > incredibly devalued (from a markish viewpoint), and the title situation
> > garners little interest (from both a markish and smart viewpoint).
> Vince has been devaluing his title since Flair won it... being World champion
> may not be as important in the WWF as it used to be.
I would say the the value of the title plummetted when the Undertaker
won the belt from Hogan. The match itself was awful. Maybe a mark
could believe in an evil twin ref, but nobody who saw that tombstone
piledriver six inches OVER a chair would have been impressed. After
losing the title in a very "fake" match, Hogan wins it back in a rip-
off PPV, and then is immediately stripped of it to set up the next
PPV. That whole situation seemed to piss people off; Vince was running
stupid angles very obviously designed to get people to open up their
pocketbooks wider.
The WWF title wasn't really in the spotlight much after that. When
Bret Hart won it, the title had almost no heat behind it. Slowly,
but surely, Bret Hart started to get over as champion. When he locked
Yokozuna into the sharpshooter at WM9, the title was as over as it
had been in years. A few minutes later, it became a joke. Sure, some
of the marks cheered when Hogan won it, but even many of them weren't
happy with the ridiculous spectacle. After months of Bret Hart
stressing that he was a fighting champion, the old, bald guy who can't
generate a tenth of the heat he used to be able to on his worst day
lost the title during his first defense in another idiotic angle, and
he lost it to a heel nobody cares about. The WWF title is possibly
now at an all-time low.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
/ Bob Rusbasan | Dance to the tension \
/ rrus...@nyx.cs.du.edu | of a world on edge \
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
/ Bob Rusbasan | Dance to the tension \
/ rrus...@nyx.cs.du.edu | of a world on edge \
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Pete Barlow
> (Pete Barlow writes: )
>> As far as heat goes, I have to agree. The heat Zuna has gotten has been
>> minimal at best. Why? Because it's always Fuji talking. Hogan drew very
>> little heat in his first stint in the WWF, but only because Fred Blassie did
>> all the talking for him then.
>
> Hogan's first stint was as a heel, and his second was as a face. It's
> like comparing apples to oranges. The Blassie factor certainly wasn't
> the only change, and perhaps not even the most significant one.
Yes, but I'm not comparing Hogan's first stint to his second one... I'm
comparing the heat Hogan drew back then to the heat Zuna draws right now. Both
are/were heels, both had/have their manager doing most if not all of the
talking, and neither one draws any heat... and the last one can now be said
about Hogan's current (and now ended) WWF run.
>> Calaway didn't start drawing heat until he said
>> more than five words at an interview. That's just how things go.
>
> I *completely* disagree. The Undertaker gimmick was over with EVERYBODY
> almost immediately, although the smart fans began to tire of Mark's
> in-ring performance soon. In fact, at least one semi-mark I know
> thinks that the Undertaker character was ruined by having him talk too
> much.
The gimmick didn't actually get over, IMHO, until Pritchard was released, and
Pringle (or Paul Bearer, whichever) was brought in. The whole Brother Love
managing The Walking Dead just didn't seem to fit in with me... and that was
what ruined it for me. The manager, for a change, ended up being as much a
factor in the gimmick as the wrestler himself.
> In general, however, you are right. WCW would do well to realize that
> fans have trouble caring for wrestlers that never get interviewed.
Which explains why nobody gives a damn about half to three-quarters of the WCW
pool. Any idea how long it's been since I've heard 2 Cold give an interview?
>> This is the only thing that's made sense so far. Hogan choice to leave the
>> fold NOW is a bad move. "Predator" got plugged like mad when it came out, as
>> did "The Running Man." If it worked for Jesse... why wouldn't it work for
>> Hogan?
>
> Well, for starters, *Hogan* is starring in Mr. Nanny. Despite what Jesse
> may want us to believe, Arnold Schwarzenegger starred in the other two
> movies. I highly doubt that Jesse Ventura or the WWF's advertising was
> more than a drop in the bucket.
This is true, but every drop counts, as any Maxwell House drinker would tell
you. :-) But in any case, it was a shot at some free plugs for both the movie
and the TV show... why on earth would he pass THAT up?
>> Makes sense again, but to a point. If Vince realises that the undercard is
>> going to be more interesting than the main event... guess what happens? He'll
>> switch the card around. Yokozuna-Crush will be stuck right before
>> intermission, as Flair-Savage was, and most likely the pending Lawler-Hart
>> match will be run last...
>
> First, the original main event of WM8 was basically split into two matches,
> since the WWF didn't want to have Hogan take the belt from, or lose
> to, Flair. Of those two matches, I'd say the Hogan match was definitely
> the main event. On the USA WM9 pre-show, the ENTIRE SHOW was dedicated
> to hyping that match.
I missed that show... oh, well.
> Second, I don't think that the undercard was going to be more interesting
> than the Flair-Savage match, and I don't think Vince thought that either.
> Those two were known for putting on good matches, and I'm sure Vince
> expected them to put out for WM9.
As they did. Both guys (well, Savage anyway) gave their best performances in
YEARS... but the heat that there was from the match ended up resolving itself.
Had those pictures of Savage and Liz been run after WM8 instead of before...
who knows? They could have dragged out that feud as long as they wanted to,
had Elizabeth and Savage not decided to split.
Instead, the WWF decided to put more emphasis on Hogan's "retirement" match.
They put that match at the end of the bill... and, in retrospect, that's
probably for the best. I think Flair-Savage would have been disappointing at
best had it followed Hogan-Eudy, just because of all the hype that the
Hogan-Eudy match drew.
>> You see, Vince has a history of putting the biggest heat making match at the
>> end of the PPV.
>
> In the early years, he had the card build up in importance, with the
> World title always on the line at the end. In the past few years,
> he's seemingly been trying all sorts of crazy strategies, most notably
> basically splitting the event into two mini-cards with an intermission
> in the middle. I like the old style myself...
Me too, which basically explains my last sentence above. The World champion
should be the last man to walk the aisle on the big cards... otherwise, why is
he the World champion? Isn't the World Champion the guy you build your
federation around?
>> The point is, if the undercard is good, they'll still come.
>
> Probably. But it *is* pathetic if they can't interest anyone in the
> main event. I would not be at all surprised if Vince drastically
> switched things around before SummerSlam to give the World title
> scene some heat.
Hey... more power to Vince, then. He'll need it if he's stuck with a zonker
like Zuna-Crush. But I'm thinking a good Michaels-Hennig match might be able
to save a turkey like that.
>> > I know I can't be the only one who thinks that the WWF Title has been
>> > incredibly devalued (from a markish viewpoint), and the title situation
>> > garners little interest (from both a markish and smart viewpoint).
>
>> Vince has been devaluing his title since Flair won it... being World champion
>> may not be as important in the WWF as it used to be.
>
> I would say the the value of the title plummetted when the Undertaker
> won the belt from Hogan. The match itself was awful. Maybe a mark
> could believe in an evil twin ref, but nobody who saw that tombstone
> piledriver six inches OVER a chair would have been impressed. After
> losing the title in a very "fake" match, Hogan wins it back in a rip-
> off PPV, and then is immediately stripped of it to set up the next
> PPV. That whole situation seemed to piss people off; Vince was running
> stupid angles very obviously designed to get people to open up their
> pocketbooks wider.
I stand corrected... you've hit the nail a lot closer to the head than I did.
Although I missed both UT's win and subsequent loss of the title, (and have no
urge to see them either) this is a better indication of when the title started
to mean less than it already did.
> The WWF title wasn't really in the spotlight much after that. When
> Bret Hart won it, the title had almost no heat behind it. Slowly,
> but surely, Bret Hart started to get over as champion. When he locked
> Yokozuna into the sharpshooter at WM9, the title was as over as it
> had been in years. A few minutes later, it became a joke. Sure, some
> of the marks cheered when Hogan won it, but even many of them weren't
> happy with the ridiculous spectacle. After months of Bret Hart
> stressing that he was a fighting champion, the old, bald guy who can't
> generate a tenth of the heat he used to be able to on his worst day
> lost the title during his first defense in another idiotic angle, and
> he lost it to a heel nobody cares about. The WWF title is possibly
> now at an all-time low.
I can't believe it was very over when Backlund held it either, if Backlund was
anything like he is today. But I see your point. The WWF really blew it by
making Zuna and Hogan multiple title holders again... they can either keep
blowing it by giving the title to either Crush (eek.) or Luger (oh, puh-leeze)
or they can give it back to a guy who won't have any problems getting over...
namely Bret Hart.
Just my $0.02 again.
Dave Scherer
RS>First off... I was stunned and amazed at the general positive reaction of
>so-called "smart fans" to the title victory of Yokozuna at KotR. I've
>never tried to make Hulk Hogan out as anything more than a great
>personality and a great draw; but anyone has to be able to acknowledge
>that whatever level you'd place Hulk Hogan at in the wrestling heirarchy,
>Yokozuna would have to be many rungs lower.
Why would it stun you? "So-called 'smart fans'" hate Hulk Hogan. They
resent the fact that he is talentless and yet has been at the top for
years. They resent that he won the belt in the bogus manner that he did
to begin with. They want to see Hogan leave the scen altogether. I
would be happy if he lost the belt to Jim Duggan if it meant getting him
out of the business.
RS>Yokozuna as a gimmick hasn't worked at all, as far as I can tell. Rodney
>Anoia as a wrestler doesn't work at all, as far as I can tell. This is a
He used to work pretty hard for his size. He has been Titanized I
guess.
RS>Next... If Yoko sucks, who would have been the logical champ for the
>summer?? Why, Hulk Hogan, of course. But he's decided to leave, at least
To me, the logical next champ is Hart. Hogan won the title on a fluke
to begin with. Hart wrestled a tough match when he lost the belt to
YokoRodney. Hogan appears to have lucked out and stole the belt,
whereas Hart comes off as an equal.
>as of today. Assuming his departure is primarily because he didn't want to
>have to do a clean job for Bret Hart at SummerSlam, I can declare his
>decision a big mistake, and a big loss for the WWF. First of all, by
>leaving Hogan has given up the only positive publicity he'd likely have
>received for his upcoming movie and TV show; he's taken himself out of the
Why should this movie be different than the others? The WWF never got a
whole lot of positive pub from them. Plus, Hogan has not exactly been
packing the houses.
RS>Thirdly... Can the WWF make something interesting out of this afterall??
>Well, there are a few possibilities; and it will have to all take place
>this Sunday. Option 1 would be to get Hogan back; not many of you would
>appreciate this, I know, but it would salvage the value of the WWF World
>Title if Hogan could get it back at SummerSlam. Keeping in mind that the
Sometimes, I wonder if people really overanalyze wrestling. It is the
playground of life, not the classroom. All of the fantasy booking and
suggestions to better the product fall on deaf ears.
---
. SLMR 2.0 . E MAIL Address:7375...@compuserve.com
pat calitri
>cm...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rick Scaia) writes:
>
>RS>First off... I was stunned and amazed at the general positive reaction of
> >so-called "smart fans" to the title victory of Yokozuna at KotR. I've
>
>resent the fact that he is talentless and yet has been at the top for
>years. They resent that he won the belt in the bogus manner that he did
>to begin with. They want to see Hogan leave the scen altogether. I
>would be happy if he lost the belt to Jim Duggan if it meant getting him
>out of the business.
Hell, I'd be happy if he lost the belt to Randy Mulkey (Mulkeymania LIVES!)
if it meant getting him out of the business. Or Dwayne Gill. Or Tom Stone.
Or Sgt. Buddy Lee Parker. Or.... (well, you get the picture).
========================= Fluffy the Wonder Bunny ============================
Alby's Law: Some days are actually worth the trouble of waking up.
Corollaries: 1. This is not one of those days.
2. If it chances to be, see Corollary 1.
======================= pcal...@napier.waterloo.edu =========================
Rick Scaia
In a previous article, dave.scherer%acc...@ssr.com (Dave Scherer) says:
>cm...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rick Scaia) writes:
>
>Why would it stun you? "So-called 'smart fans'" hate Hulk Hogan. They
>resent the fact that he is talentless and yet has been at the top for
>years. They resent that he won the belt in the bogus manner that he did
>to begin with. They want to see Hogan leave the scen altogether. I
>would be happy if he lost the belt to Jim Duggan if it meant getting him
>out of the business.
That's fine, if that's how you feel. It's just that I remember mentioning
some time back that I felt that most "smart fans" on RSPW hated Hogan, and
then being told that I was wrong, and that they only thought that his work
in the ring was subpar, and criticized that. But if hatred is what you
feel toward Hogan, then rejoicing at Hogan's loss is perfectly logical.
But you'll have to pardon me if I have a less negative opinion of Hogan
than I do of Yokozuna...
>RS>Next... If Yoko sucks, who would have been the logical champ for the
> >summer?? Why, Hulk Hogan, of course. But he's decided to leave, at least
>
>To me, the logical next champ is Hart. Hogan won the title on a fluke
>to begin with. Hart wrestled a tough match when he lost the belt to
>YokoRodney. Hogan appears to have lucked out and stole the belt,
>whereas Hart comes off as an equal.
No, no, no... the logical champ if we could have stopped WM9 from happening
the way it did would be Bret Hart. But since we can't do that, it would have
made more sense to do whatever Hogan wanted to keep him on as champion until
such time as a more deserving title holder than Yokozuna could be set up. As
far as heading straight for a Yoko-Bret title match to get the strap back into
the deserving hands of Hart goes, I don't think it'd work. Bret wrestling
tough against Yoko at WM9 was OK since Bret was over as the champ and Yoko
was supposedly nothing more than a run-of-the-mill challenger. Now Yoko is
the champ (although not over as such), and Bret been knocked down a notch or
two by Hogan's return, Yoko's title win, and Luger's turn. He's no longer
able to believable defeat Yoko... that's from a markish viewpoint,
considering recent events. It just makes more sense to go a bit slower now
and effectively rebuild Bret to take the title at a later date (and perhaps
hold it longer than 6 months).
> >as of today. Assuming his departure is primarily because he didn't want to
> >have to do a clean job for Bret Hart at SummerSlam, I can declare his
> >decision a big mistake, and a big loss for the WWF. First of all, by
> >leaving Hogan has given up the only positive publicity he'd likely have
> >received for his upcoming movie and TV show; he's taken himself out of the
>
>Why should this movie be different than the others? The WWF never got a
>whole lot of positive pub from them. Plus, Hogan has not exactly been
>packing the houses.
What I said was that Hogan would lose the publicity for his movies that he
could have gotten as a top name in the WWF. Vince plugged both "No Holds
Barred" and "Suburban Commando" incessently on WWF TV. There will be no
such plugs this time. And if Hogan's not packing houses, he could use all
the help he can get... otherwise it'll be a long time before he's asked to
star in another movie.
>Sometimes, I wonder if people really overanalyze wrestling. It is the
>playground of life, not the classroom. All of the fantasy booking and
>suggestions to better the product fall on deaf ears.
By responding to this, I fear I'll start a thread in which everyone will feel
the need to expound upon their beliefs about the meaning of life, wrestling,
and RSPW... so I'll keep it short, and let everyone else philosophize.
In the post Dave responded to by saying that I (or rather, people) might be
overanalyzing wrestling, I was considering possible ways for the WWF to
resolve the Stars and Stripes Challenge. Now I don't think that's over-
analyzing... I think that's part of what RSPW is all about. Sure the most
vital element of why we all read and participate is so that we can catch up
on the concrete insider news that people like Herb post for us... but
equally important is the sharing of ideas and feelings toward what we see,
or would like to see. And if we can't get concrete info on who Vince and Co.
are planning having win the SaSC, then let's discuss it and try to figure it
out. And then we can decide if what went down is, in fact, any good by
debating the pros and cons of Lex Luger as a mega-face.
I never consider that anything I post will fall upon the ears of anybody
who can alter the course of pro wrestling... I'm not trying to change the
sport for the better. But if I and other folks have ideas about what's good,
what's bad, and what could be done to change things, then this is the
perfect place to discuss it.
Later...
--
Rick Scaia | "It's O.K. to eat fish,
Your TV Friend | 'Cause they don't have any feelings."
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca | - Kurt Cobain
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