A Hall-Debate Inspired Question
Brian Lewis
I have read many of the posts concerning Scott Hall's debut on Nitro, and
opinions seem to be falling into two categories:
1. The angle sucks.
2. The angle's great, but Bischoff will screw it up when Hall,
Nash, et. al. job to everyone.
My question is, besides the heavy anti-Bischoff feelings in RSPW, why do
so many people think that Hall and Nash are going to come in as jobbers?
All things being equal, WCW has treated new or returning wrestlers better
than the WWF. I won't mention Hogan, he's in a class by himself (and
that class should be locked in an airtight tanker and said tanker dropped
in the middle of the Pacific Ocean), but other name wrestlers have looked
much better coming into WCW. Ricky Steamboat came back from the WWF and
won the World Title. He came back again and picked up a couple of tag
titles and the U.S. belt. Lex Luger returned from the WWF and now holds
two belts. Randy Savage jumps over and wins the World Title. Even the
Nasty Boys won the tag belts after coming back to WCW.
Let's look at the WWF's side of the story. The only name wrestler that
came into the WWF that wasn't all but wrecked careerwise was Ric Flair,
and only because he had enough clout in the business to force a little
respect from McMahon. Vince McMahon likes to CREATE superstars, not
support superstars. That's why a Steamboat, popular in a regional NWA
that was just beginning to go national, can get a big push and an IC belt
in his first tour of the WWF, and be billed as The Dragon (with the name
Ricky Steamboat and his entire history with the WWF forgotten) on his
return after the World Title reign. Lex's career seemed to be on hold
throughout his entire stay in the WWF. I'm sure we all remember seeing
Dusty Rhodes hanging off the back of a garbage truck (where he should
have tossed those god-awful polka-dot tights he had to wear). Dustin
Rhodes was given the IC belt, but at the cost of his self respect (I know
there are a number of people out there that love Golddust, but once
Dustin went from wrestling to groping his career in any other
organization other than the WWF went straight to hell. Since Vince owns
the character, can you imagine him trying to wrestle as Dustin Rhodes
again?) And, if the reports about jobbng to HBK in a PPV dark match and
to UW at the house shows are true, Vader is quickly becoming The Man They
Call Jobber.
Hall and Nash were lucky when they entered the WWF. They were both
mid-card wrestlers without a popular gimmick. The kind of wrestler Vince
could mold and shape and groom for better things (and own the complete
rights to their new WWF names so they couldn't take them if they
decided to leave). If title reigns are in their future in WCW (I could
see a U.S. belt on Hall or Nash, maybe even, dare I say, a world title
reign for one of them if their contracts are long enough) I suggest,
if they consider not sticking with WCW when their contracts are up, that
they look into long term contracts in Japan. Big success in rival
organizations is the kiss of death in the WWF.
Monty
"What's causin' all this!!"
Ric Flair
Brian K. Hoover
ble...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu (Brian Lewis) writes:
>I have read many of the posts concerning Scott Hall's debut on Nitro, and
>opinions seem to be falling into two categories:
> 1. The angle sucks.
> 2. The angle's great, but Bischoff will screw it up when Hall,
> Nash, et. al. job to everyone.
>My question is, besides the heavy anti-Bischoff feelings in RSPW, why do
>so many people think that Hall and Nash are going to come in as jobbers?
First of all, it wasn't that long ago that WCW was airing their "Where the
big boys play" promos that featured these two guys getting clobbered.
Second, by having them "represent" the WWF and then allowing them to
beat some of the major WCW stars, Bischoff's "Where the big boys play"
claim is going to appear pretty stupid since both Hall and Nash had some
very visible loses to wrestlers in the WWF recently. For example, let say
Nash wrestles Flair and beats him. Since Shawn Michaels beat Nash, that
means that Michaels should be able to beat Flair also.
The only way Bischoff can maintain his "Where the big boys play" hype
would be to have Hall and Nash cheat to win each and every match
and acknowledge it by saying something like "They have to resort to that
to beat the big boys."
If he does job them to everybody, then he's reinforcing the fact that the guys
from the WWF can't compete with the wrestlers in WCW. He could even show
clips of Hall and Nash as the Diamond Stud and Oz or Vinnie Vegas and have
Scheme... I mean Mean Gene ask them about that. Gene could even ask
Hall why he talks with a fake accent. Bischoff could do everything to make
these guys look like fools which would really make both them and McMahon
look bad since they still "represent" the WWF. This would be an awful waste
of talent, but then again, in some cases it seems like Bischoff just signs
some wrestlers to keep them out of other organizations (such as Public Enemy).
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Brian K. Hoover
bho...@itech.net
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Brian Lewis
ble...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu (Brian Lewis),
who is not to be mistaken for lew...@gov.on.ca (Brian Lewis) :), writes
some fairly interesting stuff about wrestlers who move from the WWF to
the WCW and vise-versa:
<snip>
>My question is, besides the heavy anti-Bischoff feelings in RSPW, why do
>so many people think that Hall and Nash are going to come in as jobbers?
Well, as long as Hogan is in WCW, jobbing seems to be the inevitable
outcome of any heel push. :) Whether they become jobbers is something we
will have to wait on. I'm not making any predictions one way or another.
FWIW, I agree that many posters are being unfair to Bischoff in their
negative comments on the Hall angle. IMO it's refreshing to see wrestlers
who are changing federations booked to act more like other professional
athletes who change teams or leagues. In fact, I think it gives the
sport a lot more credibility than having marks wonder why the WWF's Razor
Ramon bears a bit of a resemblance to WCW's Scott Hall. :)
>All things being equal, WCW has treated new or returning wrestlers better
>than the WWF.
As was discussed in the original post, this has been true in the case of
several established superstars, but I don't think it always holds up. Both
federations have had their share of success and failures with wresters who
have jumped from the other federation.
I agree that Luger and Savage have experienced more success recently in
the WCW than during the later part of their WWF careers. As for WCW
superstars going to the WWF, Vader has not yet jobbed on a PPV or TV
taping, so his push is alive and well in the eyes of the viewing public.
He also has not been forced to job to Hogan in the WWF and still stands
as the most likely candidate to take the championship from Michaels.
Goldustin has the IC belt in the WWF and is way over as a heel. (I
honestly don't remember if "The Natural" ever held a WCW belt). Hunter
Hearst Helmsley and Henry Godwin have both received more of a push in
the WWF than WCW, and Mark Mero is off to a good start.
There are a few WWF wrestlers, arguably in the superstar category, who
have been booked poorly in WCW. Ed "Butcher Man-with-no-Name Zodiac
Booty-man" Leslie is one example to come to mind. Mike Rotundo is
another - at least he held a tag belt a few times in the WWF. There is
also Big Bubba Bossman Biker-dude, a one time major WWF star now doomed
to WCW mid-card status until his contract expires.
>Let's look at the WWF's side of the story. The only name wrestler that
>came into the WWF that wasn't all but wrecked careerwise was Ric Flair,
>and only because he had enough clout in the business to force a little
>respect from McMahon. Vince McMahon likes to CREATE superstars, not
>support superstars.
I don't see Vader's career as being wrecked yet. Your argument does
indeed apply to Goldustin in the sense that the gimmick was created by
McMahon and is completely different from his WCW persona.
>Lex's career seemed to be on hold throughout his entire stay in the WWF.
Lex got a major push in the WWF up to SummerSlam a few years ago and
failed to get over with the fans. His failure to get over was at least
partly his own fault.
<snip>
>Monty
FWIW, one of the problems in comparing the feds is in how you quantify
the success of the wrestlers. WCW has a few more belts to distribute,
which on one hand gives them a way to denote pushed wrestlers more
clearly, but at the same time diminishes the meaning of the lesser belts.
Brian Lewis
---------------------------------------------------
"Hulkamania is dead!!" Bobby Heenan, 1993 WWF KotR
===================================================
Seth Holmes
Just too much to start quoting now but what the hell...
>Let's look at the WWF's side of the story. The only name wrestler that
>came into the WWF that wasn't all but wrecked careerwise was Ric Flair,
>and only because he had enough clout in the business to force a little
>respect from McMahon.
This isn't exactly true. If you recall... about the time that Flair came
over to the WWF was around the same time the NWA was becoming WCW. At
this time many wrestlers came over from the NWA and found success
including the Road Warriors (only Tag Team to holf the AWA, NWA, and WWF
tag straps), Lex Luger (limited sucess), Dusty Rhodes (Okay he was a
clown but then he was always a clown), Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson
(Tag Team Champs), the Nasty Boys, (Tag Team Champs), Sid Vicious (not
the bass player the wreslter) who had a little bit of success. Jim
Cornette came over as well bringing with him the Midnight Express (who
sucked), and James J. Dillion could be spotted behind a curtain here and
there as well.
Ah... time they are a changin'...
--Seth H Holmes
Pro...@prodigy.com
michael motley
I am looking for people to call a local hotline on a daily basis and
send me info on it. If you can do that I am looking to start a mailer
with hotline results from around the country or world if possible.
Basically I want info on whats happening in the world of wrestling. If
I can get enough to help then I will offer a hotline news rundown
daily. I need the hotline name and phone # if you would like to
provide info. thanks for any help you will provide.
michael motley
Attention all tape traders, and anyone interested in getting tapes. I
will be starting a email list and taking subscriptions for it and will
debut a tape trading mail list. I am looking for anyone that wants to
send in
descript tape listings to display on a semi daily basis. I am also
looking for people to send me things they are looking for or have to
trade which will also be displayed daily if possible. Also if you have
any complain
ts on traders or references on good people to deal with I want that
also. I am also looking for indy tv show rundowns. I will run the tv
rundowns once a week and right now I got USWA 60 minute show, CWUSA and
WWE rundow
ns. I also got a very good Nitro and Raw rundowns for it. The Nitro
is not very regular but its very good when it does come out. I am
looking for ECW, NAASW, ICW and any others you get. I would prefer to
stay away fro
m WWF and WCW rundowns except Raw and Nitro. If you want to run lists
or plugs through for anything you got to offer I’ll do that too. If
you want a list routed you must send it in the form of email. I really
dont want
article writers but if you want to make up a list of suggestions for
traders or ideas of any kind as long as it pertains to tapes I welcome
that. I will try to get a hotline mailer going if I can get people to
send it a
nd may include it daily also or do something separate related to that
and the tv. I am also looking for a list hotline #’s and for info on
web pages such as info on what they offer and info on them.
I dont have a name for it and would like to get some suggestions. I
will give you credit for the name if I pick yours. I will be taking
subs and ideas and such.
If you need any info write to me at mmo...@ix.netcom.com.
michael motley
I hav put together a video tape trading mailing list. I also do a
weekly tv rundown that has the following tv shows on it. If you are
interested in the Tv rundowns let me know as it will be handled
seperately.
WWC (Porteu Rico) ........ gber...@coqui.net (Georgie Berrios)
7653...@compuserve.com
CWUSA (Portland) ............ car...@teleport.com (Mark Carlton)
ECW .......................... Sln...@aol.com (Patrick Boyle)
CWA (Tony Rumble)............... rud...@tiac.net (Ken Doucet)
WWE (Tulsa) ................. Mmo...@ix.netcom.com (Michael Motley)
USWA
90 minute ......... ZDP...@prodigy.com (MR CODY MICHAELS)
60 minute ........ Neutr...@prodigy.com (Kathryn Lizenby)
Monday Night Raw........ pods...@cps.msu.edu (Kevin James Podsiadlik)
KJP’s Medium Rare Raw Report
Monday Nitro ........mat...@cabell.vcu.edu (Michael T. Tyler)
Original Nitro Reports
WWF PPV’s ................................ La...@aol.com (Rob Newland)
WWO (California group featuring mostly Lucha stars but not much action)
I also need people to do the rundowns for Weekend WWF and WCW tv shows
weekly, WCW PPv reporter, AAA and EMLL tv shows, and any other indy
shows around not listed.
michael motley
I am looking for any info on web pages and whats on them. If you have
a web page drop me a note on whats on it and the adress.
Bmoore2112
In article <4p0ari$1s...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>, YNW...@prodigy.com
(Seth Holmes) writes:
>This isn't exactly true. If you recall... about the time that Flair came
>over to the WWF was around the same time the NWA was becoming WCW. At
>this time many wrestlers came over from the NWA and found success
>including the Road Warriors (only Tag Team to holf the AWA, NWA, and WWF
>tag straps), Lex Luger (limited sucess), Dusty Rhodes (Okay he was a
>clown but then he was always a clown), Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson
>(Tag Team Champs), the Nasty Boys, (Tag Team Champs), Sid Vicious (not
>the bass player the wreslter) who had a little bit of success. Jim
>Cornette came over as well bringing with him the Midnight Express (who
>sucked), and James J. Dillion could be spotted behind a curtain here and
>there as well.
The Midnight Express in the WWF? When?
Bairman
Remy Canada Inc.
I think he means the Heavenly Bodies.
jorge l fernandez
: >This isn't exactly true. If you recall... about the time that Flair came
: >over to the WWF was around the same time the NWA was becoming WCW. At
: >this time many wrestlers came over from the NWA and found success
: >including the Road Warriors (only Tag Team to holf the AWA, NWA, and WWF
: >tag straps), Lex Luger (limited sucess), Dusty Rhodes (Okay he was a
: >clown but then he was always a clown), Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson
: >(Tag Team Champs), the Nasty Boys, (Tag Team Champs), Sid Vicious (not
: >the bass player the wreslter) who had a little bit of success. Jim
: >Cornette came over as well bringing with him the Midnight Express (who
: >sucked), and James J. Dillion could be spotted behind a curtain here and
: >there as well.
i think he probably meant the Rock n Roll Express's one match as part of
the WWF/SMW connection...
but what you forget to mention was that it was not an "invasion" of NWA,
the WWF was signing wrestlers from all over the place. you forget around
that same time we had the arrival of Kerry Von Erich, Sgt. Slaughter, and
others. the WWF never singled out NWA wrestlers with the sole purpose of
crippling them...