Why the WWF sucks
Andrew S Hall
elitist like Herb and often enjoy gimmicks, angles, and general foolery.
The WWF is pathetic, though.
1) Scott Amman posted the results of a card in Cleveland. The results
were identical in every way (there was one different match) to the
card I saw in Columbus. Even down to Doink ambushing Tatanka before the
bell and the match being postponed till later in the evening. Now,
Doink doesn't bother me and Tatanka is OK, but Vince completely insults
wrestling fans by staging like this. Some one like Marv obviously has
really limited intelligence to prefer this.
2) The WWF is even incompetent at executing its angles. Having Crush at
a TV taping the day after missing the rumble because he was "injured",
promoting vomiting voodoo, and using every possible stereotype known to
man do NOT good gimmicks make. For every gimmick of sheer commercial
genius like Undertaker and Million Dollar Man, we have Kamala who now
can't rememeber how to pin a person even though he has been in the WWF
on at least two earlier occasions w/o having this trouble. Puh-lease
Marv!! I can support you liking your type of wrestling and defending
it against the often-intolerant-ones on RSPW, but for you defend what
the WWF is idiotic.
3) The booking in the WWF is pathetic. We have continous non-endings.
We have a majority of matches that barely reach the 10 min. mark.
We have NO creativity of matches. At the recent Columbus card, there
was a great opportunity for some unplanned heat. Tatanka had some long
leather lace dangling from his leggings that became wrapped. He kept having
to pick it up and hold it in one hand when he did things like go off the
top rope. Of course, this had no effect on the script. NOT having
a heel like Doink take advantage of this totally blows the match. Things
like this ruin the WWF. You just sit there and go, "I could do (the
promoting) this so much better." In the end, that's what really ruins
the WWF for RSPW'ers.
Brandon Scott Coley
>I respect that someone may prefer the WWF to Japanese. I am not a wrestling
>elitist like Herb and often enjoy gimmicks, angles, and general foolery.
>The WWF is pathetic, though.
>
>1) Scott Amman posted the results of a card in Cleveland. The results
> were identical in every way (there was one different match) to the
> card I saw in Columbus. Even down to Doink ambushing Tatanka before the
> bell and the match being postponed till later in the evening. Now,
> Doink doesn't bother me and Tatanka is OK, but Vince completely insults
> wrestling fans by staging like this. Some one like Marv obviously has
> really limited intelligence to prefer this.
WCW is equally guilty of this, but you don't notice it as much
because on average, they host fewer house shows. In addition, the same
exact card never plays the same place. So by seeing your local card all the
time, things are different all the time.
>
>2) The WWF is even incompetent at executing its angles. Having Crush at
> a TV taping the day after missing the rumble because he was "injured",
> promoting vomiting voodoo, and using every possible stereotype known to
> man do NOT good gimmicks make. For every gimmick of sheer commercial
> genius like Undertaker and Million Dollar Man, we have Kamala who now
> can't rememeber how to pin a person even though he has been in the WWF
> on at least two earlier occasions w/o having this trouble. Puh-lease
> Marv!! I can support you liking your type of wrestling and defending
> it against the often-intolerant-ones on RSPW, but for you defend what
> the WWF is idiotic.
>
Other federations (GWF, WCW) are equally pathetic in this manner. The
only difference is that they lack the "sheer commercial genius" of Undertaker
and "The MIllion Dollar Man". (Do you remember "Steel" of the Master Blasters?
He changed his name to Oz. Now he is Vinny Vegas.) Also, consider that many
of the gimmicks (like Papa Shango/Soul Taker) are simply a continuance of
the wrestlers old gimmick when he was in another federation.
That, and if takes a few Damien Demento's to get me an Undertaker,
then by all means, gimmee a few Damien's.
>3) The booking in the WWF is pathetic. We have continous non-endings.
> We have a majority of matches that barely reach the 10 min. mark.
> We have NO creativity of matches. At the recent Columbus card, there
> was a great opportunity for some unplanned heat. Tatanka had some long
> leather lace dangling from his leggings that became wrapped. He kept having
> to pick it up and hold it in one hand when he did things like go off the
> top rope. Of course, this had no effect on the script. NOT having
> a heel like Doink take advantage of this totally blows the match. Things
> like this ruin the WWF. You just sit there and go, "I could do (the
> promoting) this so much better." In the end, that's what really ruins
> the WWF for RSPW'ers.
Once again, other federations do the same thing. In fact, I dare
say that WCW does it more often. (Although they mix in more draws than DCO's
and DDQ's) Also, please do not judge the WWF by Tatanka. He sucks. When I
went to a recent WWF card, the Tatanka match really sucked - but there were
several other matches on the card that made the whole thing worthwhile.
As far as to a comparison to Japan goes, I agree that quality goes
to Japan. I just think WWF is more interesting. I do feel, however, that
the WWF is far superior to all of the other North American promotions. The
original author of this post has the right to think wants he wants, I just
refuse to agree.
===============================================================================
= Bolt | "The Living shall fall,
= Sometimes known as Brandon | The Dead shall rise,
= Sometimes known as Asshole | Papa Shango will reign,
= But really doesn't give a shit | Over your demise!"
= bo...@wpi.wpi.edu | - Papa Shango
peter bennett
Date Entered: 03-29-93 13:56
>The WWF is pathetic, though.
>
>1) Scott Amman posted the results of a card in Cleveland. The results
> were identical in every way (there was one different match) to the
> card I saw in Columbus. Even down to Doink ambushing Tatanka before the
> bell and the match being postponed till later in the evening.
This is not exactly unique to the WWF. Wrestling promotions have done this
since time began.
> Now, Doink doesn't bother me and Tatanka is OK, but Vince completely
> insults wrestling fans by staging like this. Some one like Marv obviously
> has really limited intelligence to prefer this.
Then Vince is clearly not alone. Speaking of insults, you'd do well to leave
them out of your posts. Marv is not the only WWF fan reading, and even if he
were, insulting his intelligence does nothing to support your point. It's
crude, it's rude, and it makes you look childish.
[Some stuff tossed over the top rope...]
>3) The booking in the WWF is pathetic. We have continous non-endings.
> We have a majority of matches that barely reach the 10 min. mark.
> We have NO creativity of matches. At the recent Columbus card, there
> was a great opportunity for some unplanned heat. Tatanka had some long
> leather lace dangling from his leggings that became wrapped. He kept having
> to pick it up and hold it in one hand when he did things like go off the
> top rope. Of course, this had no effect on the script. NOT having
> a heel like Doink take advantage of this totally blows the match. Things
> like this ruin the WWF. You just sit there and go, "I could do (the
> promoting) this so much better." In the end, that's what really ruins
> the WWF for RSPW'ers.
This point I buy into, at least insofar as we see on most of the TV shows.
Vince rarely provides any wrestling to speak of except in his PPVs. Maybe in
MNR, which I don't get to see. At least in the WCW, the jobbers are allowed
to work a little, and a few of its headliners go against each other on free
TV.
Peter Bennett, Mississauga, ON a/k/a peter....@rose.com
or rn....@rose.com
---
RoseReader 2.10 P002403 Entered at [ROSE]
RoseMail 2.10 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Herb Kunze
> That, and if takes a few Damien Demento's to get me an Undertaker,
>then by all means, gimmee a few Damien's.
But wouldn't you rather trade in all of those Dementos, Undertakers,
Kamalas, Doinks, etc., and get a few more Arn Andersons, Rick Rudes,
Brian Pillmans, Bret Harts, Ric Flairs, etc.?
In e-mail, Brandon got me thinking about the "old days" (okay, my old days
would be the early-to-mid 70s and certainly aren't old compared to some)
of going to house shows when I was a little kid. My parents were fans of
the sport and figured that it was a good night's entertainment for the
money back then. Even it was staged, where else could you go see pretty
good actors performing for that money? I remember the banner at Maple
Leaf Gardens and the ads in the newspaper saying something like: "Witness
an exhibition of science and skill." And when I went as a youngster,
that's what I looked for. Unlike my parents who were babyface fans
from the start, I liked both faces and heels. I always liked the guys
who put on the better shows of "science and skill." Years later, as
I became "smarter" I would realize that what I perceived to be "science
and skill" is what I now call "work" and "workrate." I was always
a fan of the superior workers on the shows. Back then, there weren't
such outrageous gimmicks and for the guys I liked, anyway, the gimmick
never interfered with the wrestling work.
That's why I just can't relate to the Doink-lovers of the world (ditto
for the other extreme gimmick characters). Had I gotten into wrestling
years later, perhaps I'd have an appreciation for the gimmickry and the
cartoon characters. In the WWF, the glimmers of "work" and "workrate"
are rare; the "exhibition of science and skill" is replaced by a circus
freak sideshow. I could deal with the gimmickry and the characters if
they didn't influence the in-ring product so much, but that can't happen
because they have become the product in the WWF.
Herb...
Dan Nix
> But wouldn't you rather trade in all of those Dementos, Undertakers,
>Kamalas, Doinks, etc., and get a few more Arn Andersons, Rick Rudes,
>Brian Pillmans, Bret Harts, Ric Flairs, etc.?
> That's why I just can't relate to the Doink-lovers of the world (ditto
>for the other extreme gimmick characters). Had I gotten into wrestling
>years later, perhaps I'd have an appreciation for the gimmickry and the
>cartoon characters. In the WWF, the glimmers of "work" and "workrate"
>are rare; the "exhibition of science and skill" is replaced by a circus
>freak sideshow. I could deal with the gimmickry and the characters if
>they didn't influence the in-ring product so much, but that can't happen
>because they have become the product in the WWF.
> Herb...
Herb, you got be kidding. I only saw Doink wrestle twice but he used more
moves than all the other wrestlers put together one time on a TV show. Sure
the gimmick is stupid, but the WWF is realing becoming (or better yet, has
become) kiddie land. I don't remember what moves Doink did, but I do remember
that they impressed me. Of course in these 2 matches, he was wrestling a
jobber. When it comes to the Crush Vs. Doink match, the work rate will be
slow, but that's because of Crush's lack of skills.
Why is it that when two big-name wrestlers have a match in the WWF,
that match sucks???
Dan (a Doink fan, cause he has "skill and science")
Rick Scaia
In a previous article, ash...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall) says:
>I respect that someone may prefer the WWF to Japanese. I am not a wrestling
>elitist like Herb and often enjoy gimmicks, angles, and general foolery.
>The WWF is pathetic, though.
[partially justifiable criticism of the WWF deleted]
>3) The booking in the WWF is pathetic.
> You just sit there and go, "I could do (the
> promoting) this so much better." In the end, that's what really ruins
> the WWF for RSPW'ers.
Alright... sit back, relax; I'm going to take this thread into uncharted
waters. The decision comes after a startling realization that I had while
sitting though a recent WrestleMania Report: the biggest reason that I'm a
fan of the WWF is not because I love the incredible action and that the WWF
is the best federation in the world, but rather because I'm fascinated by
the WWF potential to be the best wrestling organization in the world.
OK, so even I admit that workrate isn't high on the WWF's list of
priorities... but that doesn't mean that their product is without merit.
As someone who can argue rationally (and from personal experience) that the
WWF provides the most entertaining wrestling anywhere, I feel it is now
important to discuss how the WWF product could be improved so that everyone
(marks, smart non-mark fans of angles, smart non-mark fans of workrate)
would agree that the WWF was the best wrestling organization in the world.
Let's face it, if you had to pick one organization to build up into the
world's best, it would have to be the WWF; they have the best basis on
which to build. They have the global market (North America, Europe, and
ocassionally Japan) on which a true "World Title" can be based. They have
the biggest (in the sense of fan following) wrestling names; they have
name recognition working for them. They have the finest production values
in the world; I disagree with those who say this is unimportant, as a
visiually unapealling product is often unwatchable. And most importantly,
the WWF sets the world standard as far as promoting angles go. And hey, if
you've got that, adding in a healthy workrate should be easy, right? :)
If I wanted to make the WWF the world's foremost wrestling organization,
here are the changes I would enact. See if you agree that the following
would vault the WWF into the number one spot on even the staunchest RSPW
"elitist's" ranking of federations...
1) Talent roster updates... The Bushwhackers, the Beverly Brothers,
Virgil, Tito Santana, Typhoon (at least until Earthquake returns),
Big Boss Man, Papa Shango, and Sean Mooney are out.
I would then beg and grovel to get the following
to come (or return) to the WWF: Ultimate Warrior (yes, I like him,
and so do millions of marks... we'd need him to fill seats), Jushin
Liger (to force all of you to actually watch the WWF... :)), Roddy
Piper (as a part time wrestler, full time announcer), Missy Hyatt
(if Shawn Michaels absolutely _MUST_ have a female arm peice, I
vote we at least make her easy on the eyes), Lightning Kid (there
_will_ be a place for him in the new WWF... read on), Scotty (the
Body) Flamingo/Anthony/Levy, Paul E. Dangerously (we need a solid
heel manager besides Fuji), and Jim Ross (see, I'm having an
influence already).
2) New LightHeavyweight division... Let's see, the WWF's already got
Shawn Michaels, Owen Hart, Terry Taylor, and Jim Powers (who would
get a push in the new division). Add the Lightning Kid and Scotty
Flamingo, and RSPW's favorite son, Jushin Liger, and you've got
yourself instant excitement. Of course, if I were _really_ in
charge, Barry Horowitz would reign supreme over these pretenders.:)
3) No more playing fast and loose with time... whenever possible, if
something takes place at a TV taping, it happens in real time, too.
Not like when Crush fell prey to Doink at a TV taping, appeared in
perfect health on RAW a couple weeks later, and _then_ was
"injured" on TV and couldn't make the Royal Rumble. This would be
accomplished by no longer taping 3 weeks worth of shows at a time,
then waiting another 2 weeks to even start showing them; that's a
five week delay when you get around to the third week of airing.
Inexcuseable... Tape two weeks worth, and start showing them the
weekend immediately following the taping; that's less than two
weeks delay. Still awhile, but at least excusable.
4) Vary the house shows a little bit... Holding the exact same house show
in cities that are less than an hour apart (ala Dayton and
Cincinnati house shows about a month ago) is a bit sad. Entirely
different matches aren't necessary, but at least differnt endings;
this is because it's important that fans across the country see the
same angles being played out. It's vital to continuity... however,
it's equally important that fans not see the wrestlers pretending
that matches in a city 45 miles away didn't happen, as that damages
continuity.
5) Most of all, be CREATIVE... this means letting wrestlers improv a
little bit, increasing the workrate, and booking more believable
(and interesting) ending to matches. You can't really define
these things... they just sort of have to happen. And with a
quality roster of lightheavies like the one I proposed, it
could happen.
6) Oh yeah.... BRING BACK THE MIDGETS. Just kidding... maybe...
I don't know if _everyone_ can agree that these things will mark an
_incredible_ improvement in the WWF product... but it's more than just a
"good start." I think this would be a great improvement without being a
"massive overhaul."
Later...
--
Rick Scaia | "Cloak of Invisibility, nothing...
University of Dayton | There were squirrels everywhere!"
scai...@udavxb.oca.udayton.edu | - Dave Letterman
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew S Hall
These suggestions are precisely my point about why the WWF sucks.
It is not that I hate its style of promotion, but that it is so
horribly executed. If they could cap all the wacky angles and goofy
stunts with some creative booking and good matches, I think nearly
everyone (Herb excepted) would be happy.
The way the WWF runs their promotion shows contempt for the fans.
Maybe it is supposed to be for kids, but it shows contempt even for kids.
Unlike some WWF critics, I am NOT ordering Wrestlemania. This is the
first time that I have had access to it and haven't. A couple other
fans and I will rent the video when it comes out, though.
I borrowed tapes of Smokey Mountain from a friend and that makes
me dislike the WWF even more. Despite a much, much lower budget, and
really small roster of stars, they really go all out to put on good
shows. The TV product is superb (on a par with old Mid-South/UWF) and
the house shows look to be even better. They do a lot of things I dislike
such as too many screw-job endings and run-ins, but they do them so well,
that I still enjoy it. The Master angle was one of the absolute best
angles I have ever seen. Maybe not the most original, but flawlessly
executed.
Maybe people are too harsh on the WWF, but it is because of real
frustration at all that wasted potential. With talents like the Harts,
Michaels, DiBiase, Steiners, and even Doink who have experience at
putting on really good shows, there is NO excuse for the shitty product
they put out. The basic reason is Vince. He wants McWrestling. The product
will be the same regardless of where you go. Its really sad because he
used to do better. He used to have regional feuds and regional interviews
for house shows. I remember classics like the Bundy/ Duke of Dorchester
feud that only occured in the Boston Garden.
In a small defense of the WWF, there is worse. A local low power
TV station show wrestling every night. On Mon, I saw IWCCW. Lord Almighty,
but it is totally pathetic. The announcers are atrocious, I saw more missed
moves than I ever seen before, and the whole things just had a really
sleazy, cheezy feel. It was worse than Global!!!
Herb Kunze
>Let's face it, if you had to pick one organization to build up into the
>world's best, it would have to be the WWF; they have the best basis on
>which to build. They have the global market (North America, Europe, and
>ocassionally Japan) on which a true "World Title" can be based. They have
>the biggest (in the sense of fan following) wrestling names; they have
>name recognition working for them. They have the finest production values
>in the world; I disagree with those who say this is unimportant, as a
>visiually unapealling product is often unwatchable. And most importantly,
>the WWF sets the world standard as far as promoting angles go. And hey, if
>you've got that, adding in a healthy workrate should be easy, right? :)
If you have to choose a North American group, then I can see these
points. I think that arguments can be made for New Japan (or All Japan)
for global market, name recognition, production values being at the
same level or better.
The WWF does set the standard for gimmicky angles. Old hardcore angles
are better done in many other promotions. That's not a criticism.
>If I wanted to make the WWF the world's foremost wrestling organization,
>here are the changes I would enact.
>1) Talent roster updates... The Bushwhackers, the Beverly Brothers,
> Virgil, Tito Santana, Typhoon (at least until Earthquake returns),
> Big Boss Man, Papa Shango, and Sean Mooney are out.
I'd keep BBM, but tone down the gimmick, and keep Tito Santana (and let
him work). I'd also get rid of Damien Demento, Doink, Undertaker,
Kamala, Jim Duggan. I'd recycle IRS, Repo-Man, Razor Ramon (and maybe
Undertaker) into less gimmicky characters.
> I would then beg and grovel to get the following
> to come (or return) to the WWF: Ultimate Warrior (yes, I like him,
> and so do millions of marks... we'd need him to fill seats), J
This is fine, as long as he looks at the ceiling when he wrestles a
more talented worker (basically everybody). If you want him to be
the "main man" of the promotion, you've already isolated me.
> Jushin
> Liger (to force all of you to actually watch the WWF... :)),
Politically impossible. But a nice dream.
> Roddy
> Piper (as a part time wrestler, full time announcer),
Strictly announcing would be fine.
> Missy Hyatt
> (if Shawn Michaels absolutely _MUST_ have a female arm peice, I
> vote we at least make her easy on the eyes),
Or just let Shawn wrestle and forget about the boy toy gimmick being
so strong.
> Lightning Kid (there
> _will_ be a place for him in the new WWF... read on), Scotty (the
> Body) Flamingo/Anthony/Levy, Paul E. Dangerously (we need a solid
> heel manager besides Fuji), and Jim Ross (see, I'm having an
> influence already).
These are all good additions. Jim Ross will only work if you follow
my first point and tone down all the gimmicks and eliminate all of the
stupid ones.
>
>2) New LightHeavyweight division... Let's see, the WWF's already got
> Shawn Michaels, Owen Hart, Terry Taylor, and Jim Powers (who would
> get a push in the new division). Add the Lightning Kid and Scotty
> Flamingo, and RSPW's favorite son, Jushin Liger, and you've got
> yourself instant excitement. Of course, if I were _really_ in
> charge, Barry Horowitz would reign supreme over these pretenders.:)
Would all of these guys be believable as *Light* Heavies?
>
>3) No more playing fast and loose with time... w
> Tape two weeks worth, and start showing them the
> weekend immediately following the taping; that's less than two
> weeks delay. Still awhile, but at least excusable.
How about considering the Japanese-style touring system? Have a house
show somewhere in the country every day for a three week period, say.
Then take a week off. On the weekend shows, you show matches from the
current tour. That way, if there's an upcoming match between A & B
and I see that they wrestled four days before in a great match, I'm
pumped to see them. Or if they ran an angle in that match, I'm informed
on it and ready to see the "revenge" scene.
The problem is that this would necessarily lower the production values
of the show. Them make it a mix. Either make two nights of the tour
TV tapings, say, or schedule a TV taping for the off-tour week. The
TV show could be a mix of all these matches. .
At worst, there should be a 15 minute (at least) long segment that
presents matches from the current tour (maybe clips, angles, finishes,
whatever).
>4) Vary the house shows a little bit... H
This is completely cured by switching to the tour system described above.
Of course, now the booker(s) will actually have to think about what they
want to have happen on each tour.
>
>5) Most of all, be CREATIVE... this means letting wrestlers improv a
> little bit, increasing the workrate, and booking more believable
> (and interesting) ending to matches. You can't really define
> these things... they just sort of have to happen. And with a
> quality roster of lightheavies like the one I proposed, it
> could happen.
In could happen in the light heavyweight matches, but not in the heavyweight
matches, unless you dramatically change the roster and eliminate the
heavy reliance on gimmicks. I think the key thing is to exclusively
book based on ability. The guys who work the best will be on top of the
card, making the match quality increase as the night goes on.
Herb...
Herb Kunze
>hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
>>In the WWF, the glimmers of "work" and "workrate"
>>are rare; the "exhibition of science and skill" is replaced by a circus
>>freak sideshow. I could deal with the gimmickry and the characters if
>>they didn't influence the in-ring product so much, but that can't happen
>>because they have become the product in the WWF.
>moves than all the other wrestlers put together one time on a TV show.
On a squash-filled WWF syndie, this isn't saying much. I can understand
that Doink might be fun to watch for, oh, 30 seconds, but then the
realization that you're watching Matt Borne in a clown suit should
kick in.
>When it comes to the Crush Vs. Doink match, the work rate will be
>slow, but that's because of Crush's lack of skills.
Yeah, right. That's it. Somehow, I envision this match being filled
with stupid antics by Doink, with his laughing filling at least half the
match time. Let's figure out a way to blame Brian Adams for that.
> Why is it that when two big-name wrestlers have a match in the WWF,
>that match sucks???
That's a simple combinatoric problem. Say there are about 40 "names"
in the WWF. Of that, how many can actually wrestle well? Bret Hart,
Owen Hart, Shawn Michaels, ummm... Say we want to have a singles
match-up. There are 40*39=1560 possible matches, since we could
choose any of the 40 guys as the first wrestler and any of the 39
remaining guys as the second wrestler (assuming that somebody can't
wrestle himself, which might not be a safe assumption with Vince in
charge. Actually Owen Hart could probably have a better match by
himself than any of the WrestleMania matches promise to be). How
many good workers were there? Assume I'm being too harsh in my
really short list and say that 10 guys in the WWF wrestle well.
If we wanted a great match, we'd have to pick two of these guys
to face each other, with there being 10*9=90 choices for pairings.
That means that we have a maximum (90/1560)*100%=5.8% chance of
having a great match in the WWF.
That's a maximum estimate too! It's wouldn't be a surprise if the
actual percentage was less than this.
Herb...
191069...@sscl.uwo.ca
>[ much wonderful suggestions from mr scaia about how to run the WWF deleted]
> These suggestions are precisely my point about why the WWF sucks.
>It is not that I hate its style of promotion, but that it is so
>horribly executed. If they could cap all the wacky angles and goofy
>stunts with some creative booking and good matches, I think nearly
>everyone (Herb excepted) would be happy.
Well said. It seems like Wince has forgot that the second
W in WWF stands for WRESTLING. Although gimmicks and angles do have a role
in wrestling IMO, that role should be a secondary one. That's probably one
of the reasons why I enjoy Dave's tapes so much. For example, Liger and Muta
both have what I would call "gimmicks" (ie. the mask and painted face/green
mist, respectively), but these gimmicks aren't very elaborate by WWF
standards, and are accompanied by high levels of wrestling talent and the
ability to work good entertaining matches.
> The way the WWF runs their promotion shows contempt for the fans.
>Maybe it is supposed to be for kids, but it shows contempt even for kids.
>Unlike some WWF critics, I am NOT ordering Wrestlemania. This is the
>first time that I have had access to it and haven't. A couple other
>fans and I will rent the video when it comes out, though.
I *might* watch WMIX on "Scramblevision", *if* I don't have anything
else to do, and if I have a bottle of Tylenol handy :-)
> Maybe people are too harsh on the WWF, but it is because of real
>frustration at all that wasted potential. With talents like the Harts,
>Michaels, DiBiase, Steiners, and even Doink who have experience at
>putting on really good shows, there is NO excuse for the shitty product
>they put out.
Sad but true. Seems like signing a contract in the WWF is the "kiss
of death" as far as workrate is concerned. Some of the wrestlers in the WWF
have little or no wrestling ability IMO, while the wrestlers who can work
good matches rarely do (or are allowed to?).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
() () () : Russ Boucher (Psych '94) :
() () () : University of Western Ontario: "When Fortune comes, seize her
() () () : London, Ontario, Canada : in front with a sure hand,
()()() :------------------------------: because behind she is bald."
() : Very long e-mail address: :
() : 191069...@sscl.uwo.ca : - Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Johnston
>> Why is it that when two big-name wrestlers have a match in the WWF,
>>that match sucks???
> That's a simple combinatoric problem. Say there are about 40 "names"
> in the WWF. Of that, how many can actually wrestle well? Bret Hart,
> Owen Hart, Shawn Michaels, ummm... Say we want to have a singles
> match-up. There are 40*39=1560 possible matches, since we could
> choose any of the 40 guys as the first wrestler and any of the 39
> remaining guys as the second wrestler (assuming that somebody can't
> wrestle himself, which might not be a safe assumption with Vince in
> charge. Actually Owen Hart could probably have a better match by
Remember, divide by two unless you have some way of telling the
difference between the first wrestler chosen and the second. Other-
wise, you're counting (for example) Bret vs. Shawn as one match,
and Shawn vs. Bret as another.
> That's a maximum estimate too!
Ah.
Rob Follo
Actually you'd have to divide both the top of the fraction and the bottom
by 2.. thus not changing the percentage one bit...
kinda sickening percentage.. was it 6%??
ick..
Rob Follo
Tom Johnston
>Actually you'd have to divide both the top of the fraction and the bottom
>by 2.. thus not changing the percentage one bit...
>kinda sickening percentage.. was it 6%??
>ick..
True, but the total number of matches given was too high, if the
other numbers are accepted as correct.
It's interesting (to me, at least) that there are wrestlers in
the WWF who I like enough that I consider any match to be worth
watching if it includes them. So for me, the total number of
watchable matches (or the percentage of watchable matches) is
considerably higher than for someone who wishes to see quality
match-ups. No matter how poor the opposition, I enjoy seeing
Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, The Headhunters, The Undertaker,
Hrazon Hramon, Rick Martel, Mr. Perfect, and probably a few
others in the WWF. Of course, I prefer matches between members
of this group, rather than matches against some less interesting
wrestler (such as Typhoon or Virgil.)
Tom
Stilt Man
>
>>Actually you'd have to divide both the top of the fraction and the bottom
>>by 2.. thus not changing the percentage one bit...
>>kinda sickening percentage.. was it 6%??
>>ick..
>
>the WWF who I like enough that I consider any match to be worth
>watching if it includes them. So for me, the total number of
>watchable matches (or the percentage of watchable matches) is
>considerably higher than for someone who wishes to see quality
>match-ups. No matter how poor the opposition, I enjoy seeing
>Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, The Headhunters, The Undertaker,
>Hrazon Hramon, Rick Martel, Mr. Perfect, and probably a few
>others in the WWF. Of course, I prefer matches between members
>of this group, rather than matches against some less interesting
>wrestler (such as Typhoon or Virgil.)
>
I agree a great deal with this sentiment. I like to watch Flair, Muta, Vader
and AA, and as a result I will go out of my way to watch any match, even a
squash, involving these four. If they're against each other (which happens
approximately once every few millenia) it doesn't hurt, but much of my
enjoyment of wrestling comes from just watching the guys I like. I don't
really care who they're up against, because in general they put on good
matches no matter.
__________________________________________________________________________
|The Stilt Man fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
| --Never ask a mortician to go out and bring you back a cold one. |
|__________________________________________________________________________|
|fol...@storm.cs.orst.edu | The opinions expressed do not necessarily |
|fol...@mundania.cs.orst.edu | represent those of Oregon State University |
|fol...@mist.cs.orst.edu | or any of its departments. Thus, the place|
|fol...@prism.cs.orst.edu | has not been the victim of arson recently. |
|_____________________________|____________________________________________|
Do unto others before they do unto you.
BEHM CHRISTOPHER JOSEPH
and less time watching wrestling eh?
--
John Mastrangelo
i...@ntia.its.bldr.nist.gov
Eric Chmiel
> I *might* watch WMIX on "Scramblevision", *if* I don't have anything
>else to do, and if I have a bottle of Tylenol handy :-)
This is funny. For WWF PPVs, I sometimes find something to do
around the house (paint, clean, etc.) while listening to the play by
play on the scrambled station. Vince's PPVs are great because, since
the matches will all blow, you don't actually have to *see* the event,
just follow what's going on by the sound. That's what the WWF is anyway,
right? You follow the angles, not the wrestling. You save a lot of
money this way.
********************
Eric Chmiel*********
********************
Mark Anthony Byrne
videos, I finally decided to watch a current WWF video from my local vid store
My opinion on the matter is ....
The WWF has a more polished product to sell than the other leagues/organisations
but BOY do their gimicks and wrestlers SUCK!!!
I mean this Razor Ramone character has got to be the worst wrestler I have ever seen and yet he seems to be getting a major push.....Wince WHY???
and even worse is this fool who has bright red hair and runs around
pretending he is an Indian...Tatanaka or Tonka or something like that.
He SUCKS....no skill....no brain....lousy gimick....no talent....can't sell...
the list seems endless.....He makes the Warrior ( Who I like - Great Gimick )
look like a champion thoroughbreed, a talented wrestler whose physique is
totally natural. Bring back Slick Ric and Muta, Mario Milano (still
wrestling at an age of 50+ years ) and the Funks.
I admit I like the bad guys and the whole idea of wrestling as a soap opera,
but Vince McMahon has really been screwing up lately. His gimicks are..well
BORING. I mean sure a clown as a wrestler is a fun idea, esp. when he makes
fools of the faces. But this minority group thing he is doing really sucks
big time. I know in America that jobs have to be given to minority groups
in proportion to the population but does this mean Vince's next creation
will be ...a Gay Sperm Whale claiming land rights in the centre of the ring
at Madison Square Garden....wrestling Bret Hart for the championship while
sitting on Yokozuna. Pretty scary thought that.
Speaking of Yokobutt....a good angle that has not yet been discussed is
BATTLE of the SUMO's
Yokozuna vs. John Tenta in a SUMO styled match at WM10 for the WWF title
Both wearing the traditional nappies trying to throw the other over the top rope WOW!!!!! imagine the impact that would make.
anyway thats my 2 cents worth and all I can say is May Ric Flair win the WCW/NWA
title back. May Hulk Hogan win the WWF title back and then they have a
title unification match with NO time limit, No DQ. and pinfalls count anywhere
AHHH we can all dream of it can't we.
Cheers
Mark
"The Gross Gladiator"
Byrne
Herb Kunze
> In article <C4rqz...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tpjg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston) writes:
> >hek...@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Herb Kunze) writes:
> >>> Why is it that when two big-name wrestlers have a match in the WWF,
> >>>that match sucks???
> >difference between the first wrestler chosen and the second. Other-
> >wise, you're counting (for example) Bret vs. Shawn as one match,
> >and Shawn vs. Bret as another.
> and less time watching wrestling eh?
Oops. I pulled an Euler though and got the right final result. ;-)
The 5.8% figure is generous in my books, too. So, despite my bean
counting deficiency, my point remains that the probability of a great
match in the WWF is extremely low.
Herb...
William Grant
can wrestle Herb, 3 seems closer to the right number than 10. I'd hate
to see the actual percentage.....
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// William A. Grant // ' Hey man, I don't make the rules, //
// Central Michigan University // I just rape em' //
// 343...@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU // -E. Kostendt //
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Rick Scaia
To start it all off, I said:
>>Let's face it, if you had to pick one organization to build up into the
>>world's best, it would have to be the WWF; they have the best basis on
>>which to build. They have the global market...
>>They have name recognition working for them...
>>They have the finest production values in the world...
>>And most importantly, the WWF sets the world standard as far as promoting
>>angles go.
Then Herb said:
> If you have to choose a North American group, then I can see these
> points. I think that arguments can be made for New Japan (or All Japan)
> for global market, name recognition, production values being at the
> same level or better.
Now I will say:
I don't see this being true... A random sampling of average wrestling fans
(marks and non-marks from around the world) would undoubtably show that
people are far more familiar with the WWF product. And from what I've
seen of Japanese wrestling (mostly New Japan tapes), I think that
production vaules are still just a notch below the WWF.
> The WWF does set the standard for gimmicky angles. Old hardcore angles
> are better done in many other promotions. That's not a criticism.
I have a hard time not thinking "hardcore=boring" when I read this
statement... I know that's probably not the case, but, IMO, angles are, by
definition, "gimmicky." The whole concept of promoting angles is to create
an undue amount of friction between two characters; to do this, promoters
must resort to gimmicktry. I have a feeling that what Herb was trying to
convey was that the WWF is the best at promoting gimmicky characters
(Doink, etc.) which wasn't my original point. No matter what kind of angle
the WWF uses, the storyline is always sensical and easy to follow (unlike
schizophenic WCW angles).
>>If I wanted to make the WWF the world's foremost wrestling organization,
>>here are the changes I would enact.
>>
>>1) Talent roster updates... The Bushwhackers, the Beverly Brothers,
>> Virgil, Tito Santana, Typhoon (at least until Earthquake returns),
>> Big Boss Man, Papa Shango, and Sean Mooney are out.
> I'd keep BBM, but tone down the gimmick, and keep Tito Santana (and let
> him work). I'd also get rid of Damien Demento, Doink, Undertaker,
> Kamala, Jim Duggan. I'd recycle IRS, Repo-Man, Razor Ramon (and maybe
> Undertaker) into less gimmicky characters.
I must have been sleepy when I typed this the first time.... Kamala and
Jim Duggan would be cordially invited to leave the promotion; good call,
Herb.
Keeping Big Boss Man seems a good idea... but only if he gets an entirely
new gimmick. The guy has improved so much in the past few years, and is
now one of the hardest working big men in North America. The problem is
that the prison guard gimmick is just about dead; they've run every
conceivable angle they can with this gimmick. I wouldn't mind recycling
IRS and Repo... How about this: Repo returns as Demolition Smash, and
Damien Demento gets recycled as his new partner? This would further the
WWF tag team superiority over WCW. And no, I wouldn't recylce Razor
Ramon... he's too good in his current role as the WWF most despicable heel.
Ditch Doink and the Undertaker ?!?!?!?!?!?! BLASPHEMY!! :) I think this
has been discussed often enough... these guys may not be hard workers, but
they are alot of fun to watch in different ways. As long as you recognize
this, I think you'll at least be willing to keep them around... but not
necessarily like them.
>> I would then beg and grovel to get the following
>> to come (or return) to the WWF: Ultimate Warrior (yes, I like him,
>> and so do millions of marks... we'd need him to fill seats), J
>
> This is fine, as long as he looks at the ceiling when he wrestles a
> more talented worker (basically everybody). If you want him to be
> the "main man" of the promotion, you've already isolated me.
Like I said... he's there to fill seats. Sure he'll get quite a few wins
(otherwise the marks won't want to see him in person any more), but there
wouldn't be any titles in the new WWF for him. Pretty much he'll get a two
or three big feuds a year against some of the bigger names in the
federation... I don't know, maybe this constitutes being a "main man" in
your eyes... maybe it doesn't.
>> Jushin
>> Liger (to force all of you to actually watch the WWF... :)),
>
> Politically impossible. But a nice dream.
I did, of course, mean this mostly as a joke. But I am curious to find out
what about the politics of Japansese wrestling makes this an "impossible"
dream. I'm always looking to further my scarce knowledge about wrestling
across the Pacific.
>> Roddy
>> Piper (as a part time wrestler, full time announcer),
>
> Strictly announcing would be fine.
Having him wrestle a bit would be better, I think. When I mentioned adding
a little bit of improvisation to the ring, Hot Rod is who I had in mind.
Whenever I saw him wrestle, he seemed to be adding little things along the way.
That's why I found him highly entertaining, both in the ring and out.
>> Missy Hyatt
>> (if Shawn Michaels absolutely _MUST_ have a female arm peice, I
>> vote we at least make her easy on the eyes),
>
> Or just let Shawn wrestle and forget about the boy toy gimmick being
> so strong.
That'd be great, too... and now that I think about it a bit more, Madusa
would be even better an addition than Missy. She's just as good looking,
and far less annoying. Plus, she can get in the ring and kick Sherri's ass.
And that'd be sure to fill some seats.
>> Lightning Kid (there
>> _will_ be a place for him in the new WWF... read on), Scotty (the
>> Body) Flamingo/Anthony/Levy, Paul E. Dangerously (we need a solid
>> heel manager besides Fuji), and Jim Ross (see, I'm having an
>> influence already).
>
> These are all good additions.
Thanks, Herb... finally after six months in RSPW, I feel like I've
accomplished something. :)
>>2) New LightHeavyweight division... Let's see, the WWF's already got
>> Shawn Michaels, Owen Hart, Terry Taylor, and Jim Powers (who would
>> get a push in the new division). Add the Lightning Kid and Scotty
>> Flamingo, and RSPW's favorite son, Jushin Liger, and you've got
>> yourself instant excitement. Of course, if I were _really_ in
>> charge, Barry Horowitz would reign supreme over these pretenders.:)
>
> Would all of these guys be believable as *Light* Heavies?
Maybe, maybe not... I think what I'd mostly like to do is to separate out
the _SUPER_heavies from everyone else. But adding in a "middleheavyweight"
class would fragment the federation a bit too much. The solution is to
have a very generous weight limit on being a lightheavy; say 245 lbs.
This way the really light guys (like Lightning Kid, Scotty Flamingo, and
even Shawn Michaels) aren't too outmatched by the "middleweights" like Owen
Hart, Terry Taylor, and maybe even Randy Savage or Bob Backlund. Or do
think that having both a light heavyweight _and_ middleweight class is
feasible?
>>3) No more playing fast and loose with time...
>> Tape two weeks worth, and start showing them the
>> weekend immediately following the taping; that's less than two
>> weeks delay. Still awhile, but at least excusable.
>
> How about considering the Japanese-style touring system? Have a house
> show somewhere in the country every day for a three week period, say.
> Then take a week off. On the weekend shows, you show matches from the
> current tour. That way, if there's an upcoming match between A & B
> and I see that they wrestled four days before in a great match, I'm
> pumped to see them. Or if they ran an angle in that match, I'm informed
> on it and ready to see the "revenge" scene.
>
> The problem is that this would necessarily lower the production values
> of the show. Them make it a mix. Either make two nights of the tour
> TV tapings, say, or schedule a TV taping for the off-tour week. The
> TV show could be a mix of all these matches. .
>
> At worst, there should be a 15 minute (at least) long segment that
> presents matches from the current tour (maybe clips, angles, finishes,
> whatever).
I don't really like the idea of going to the Japanese touring system, but I
do like the idea of a segment that reviews recent house show activity. I'm
not sure the touring system is feasible on a nationwide basis here in
America; I mean, the USA and Canada are about 20 times larger than Japan.
Either the tours would have to be much longer, or it would only hit a few
selected cities.
Perhaps this is the solution: At Monday Night RAW, use the chance to tape
a few hours of syndie-quality matches (enhancing the quality of these
matches wouldn't hurt things either). Then the next weekend (5 days
later) use that footage combined with about a 15-20 minute update from recent
house shows. I'm not sure that this would hurt production values too
badly... but it certainly would make the WWF TV shows more "current."
>>4) Vary the house shows a little bit...
> This is completely cured by switching to the tour system described above.
> Of course, now the booker(s) will actually have to think about what they
> want to have happen on each tour.
Like I said, I don't like the touring idea... the way the WWF crisscrosses
the country with two shows is quite acceptable; it's the _IDEAS_ that are
often lacking. Just shuffle the undercard matches around alot and keep the
main events the same but vary the endings. Since the syndies will be
reporting the results of these matches, the results will have to be
different in every city. Feuds will no longer be dominated by one
wrestler... they will be a bit less conclusive so as to convince viewers to
see the latest installment of the feud coming to "An Arena Near Them."
>>5) Most of all, be CREATIVE... this means letting wrestlers improv a
>> little bit, increasing the workrate, and booking more believable
>> (and interesting) ending to matches. You can't really define
>> these things... they just sort of have to happen. And with a
>> quality roster of lightheavies like the one I proposed, it
>> could happen.
> In could happen in the light heavyweight matches, but not in the heavyweight
> matches, unless you dramatically change the roster and eliminate the
> heavy reliance on gimmicks. I think the key thing is to exclusively
> book based on ability. The guys who work the best will be on top of the
> card, making the match quality increase as the night goes on.
Booking based on ability means different things to different people... To
Herb, it undoubtably means "booking based on workrate." To Vince McMahon
it means "booking based on how many tickets the guy sells." I'd like to
pick some kind of happy medium... so that we have a high(er) workrate
_and_ so that we play to full arenas. Yes, this does mean guys like
Undertaker and Hulk Hogan get to win alot of matches; but they will also
lose a few. Guys like Bret and Owen Hart, Ted DiBiase, Curt Henning, and
Shawn Michaels will be marquee wrestlers, too. I'd probably book the
workers as champions and the top challengers, while the big names who
sell the tickets get are more of the "side show."
For better or worse, there it is... the New WWF.
Later....
Eric Chmiel
>
>Then Herb said:
>
>> The WWF does set the standard for gimmicky angles. Old hardcore angles
>> are better done in many other promotions. That's not a criticism.
>
>I have a hard time not thinking "hardcore=boring" when I read this
>statement... I know that's probably not the case, but, IMO, angles are, by
>definition, "gimmicky." The whole concept of promoting angles is to create
>an undue amount of friction between two characters; to do this, promoters
Just a quick $.02. "Hardcore angles" would most likely cover all
non-cartoon type stuff, the stuff that basically *was* wrestling before
about 1983 or 1984. This is not to say they have to be super-realistic.
Realism and Hardcore aren't the same. Hardcore angles were usually directly
related to in-ring activities, like a feud over a title or a heel (or face)
turn. Or, they were violence-driven, like a heel burning a face or shoving
scissors in somebody's eye.
The WWF usually uses angles related directly to the cartoon gimmicks
of their wrestlers (like Undertaker trying to shove Kamala in a coffin or
Nailz coming after Big Bossman). Sometimes, as far as angles go, the WWF
does okay. But they generally don't a) set up a feud and b) let it happen.
They usually gimmick the entire feud in some way. They've taken a beating
for this, but that's just how they do businness. Now, there were rediculous
gimmicks before Vince, and good feuds in the WWF after 1983 (Michaels vs.
Jannetty), but I speak in the general sense. Of course, the WWF cannot run
violence driven angles these days. They usually do cartoon violence, like
the Doink/Crush angle.
>I have a feeling that what Herb was trying to convey was that the WWF is
>the best at promoting gimmicky characters (Doink, etc.) which wasn't my
>original point. No matter what kind of angle the WWF uses, the storyline
>is always sensical and easy to follow (unlike schizophenic WCW angles).
That's true. The WWF is usually booked so that feuds begin, continue
and end (again, generally), while WCW's booking has been (ahem) eratic.
While I don't think either group's booking is anything to brag about, WCW
has a major tendency to run dud angles and then not finish them.
***********
Eric Chmiel
***********
pat calitri
>
>> Why is it that when two big-name wrestlers have a match in the WWF,
>>that match sucks???
>
> That's a simple combinatoric problem. Say there are about 40 "names"
> in the WWF. Of that, how many can actually wrestle well? Bret Hart,
> Owen Hart, Shawn Michaels, ummm... Say we want to have a singles
> match-up. There are 40*39=1560 possible matches, since we could
> choose any of the 40 guys as the first wrestler and any of the 39
> remaining guys as the second wrestler (assuming that somebody can't
> wrestle himself, which might not be a safe assumption with Vince in
> charge. Actually Owen Hart could probably have a better match by
> himself than any of the WrestleMania matches promise to be). How
> many good workers were there? Assume I'm being too harsh in my
> really short list and say that 10 guys in the WWF wrestle well.
> If we wanted a great match, we'd have to pick two of these guys
> to face each other, with there being 10*9=90 choices for pairings.
> That means that we have a maximum (90/1560)*100%=5.8% chance of
> having a great match in the WWF.
>
> That's a maximum estimate too! It's wouldn't be a surprise if the
> actual percentage was less than this.
Herb,
I hate math. It took me three years of being a math major to figure that
out. I really HATE math. So, I took my degree and ran far away from it.
Why do you think I'm doing another degree in Psychology? Now, here you
are, spouting this numerical gibberish, and associating it with one of
the few things that doesn't require math that I enjoy. Thanks a
f-----g lot! If you only knew how much I hate you!
ps: ;-) <--- smiley for the humour impaired
========================= Fluffy the Wonder Bunny ============================
"You bought the cow after I got all the milk for nothing! And at 12 o'clock
she was knocking on my door saying, `Nature Boy! I wanna ride Space Moun-
tain AGAIN!'" - Slick Ric to Savage re: that slut Elizabeth ;-)
====================== pcal...@descartes.waterloo.edu =======================
Herb Kunze
>To start it all off, I said:
>Then Herb said:
>> [ Only if you restrict yourself to NA; the Japanese groups rate too ]
>Now I will say:
>I don't see this being true... A random sampling of average wrestling fans
>(marks and non-marks from around the world) would undoubtably show that
>people are far more familiar with the WWF product. And from what I've
>seen of Japanese wrestling (mostly New Japan tapes), I think that
>production vaules are still just a notch below the WWF.
I don't agree with your first sentence. New Japan and All Japan draw
more people to house shows per year than the WWF does (ref: my post on
average attendance in 1992). New Japan wrestlers, anyway, have toured
Europe and done well as far as drawing goes. The WWF does well on these
tours too. That's mainly because those areas are starved for wrestling
of any quality. New Japan has a smattering of fans throughout North
America. The WWF has, at best, a sub-smattering of fans in Japan.
The Japanese do better ring entrances for their big shows than the WWF
does. Pyrotechnics and all that shit. The WWF catches the big moves
better (usually) than other promotions do. But in the WWF matches,
there usually is only one or two big moves, so they can plan for them
better.
>> The WWF does set the standard for gimmicky angles. Old hardcore angles
>> are better done in many other promotions. That's not a criticism.
>I have a hard time not thinking "hardcore=boring" when I read this
>statement... I know that's probably not the case, but, IMO, angles are, by
>definition, "gimmicky." The whole concept of promoting angles is to create
>an undue amount of friction between two characters; to do this, promoters
>must resort to gimmicktry. I have a feeling that what Herb was trying to
>convey was that the WWF is the best at promoting gimmicky characters
>(Doink, etc.) which wasn't my original point. No matter what kind of angle
>the WWF uses, the storyline is always sensical and easy to follow (unlike
>schizophenic WCW angles).
Let's see. Hardcore angles involve "real" violence and brutality or
"legitimate" desires to compete; they aren't dressed up as comic book
fluff (which does include the angle being too cartoonish or the wrestlers'
gimmicks being too cartoonish).
The Japanese groups run with strictly hardcore angles (as defined above).
Yes, the current WWF is better at story lines (usually) than the current
WCW. That's because of the stability of the bookers in one group compared
to the other. But if we're taking over, then all of that doesn't matter,
right?
As far as gimmicks go, I have no problem with them unless (a) they affect
the wrestling too much and/or (b) they insult the intelligence too much.
>>>If I wanted to make the WWF the world's foremost wrestling organization,
>>>here are the changes I would enact.
>>>1) Talent roster updates... The Bushwhackers, the Beverly Brothers,
>>> Virgil, Tito Santana, Typhoon (at least until Earthquake returns),
>>> Big Boss Man, Papa Shango, and Sean Mooney are out.
>> I'd keep BBM, but tone down the gimmick, and keep Tito Santana (and let
>> him work). I'd also get rid of Damien Demento, Doink, Undertaker,
>> Kamala, Jim Duggan. I'd recycle IRS, Repo-Man, Razor Ramon (and maybe
>> Undertaker) into less gimmicky characters.
>I must have been sleepy when I typed this the first time.... Kamala and
>Jim Duggan would be cordially invited to leave the promotion; good call,
>Herb.
Okay. Agreement!
>Ditch Doink and the Undertaker ?!?!?!?!?!?! BLASPHEMY!! :) I think this
>has been discussed often enough... these guys may not be hard workers, but
>they are alot of fun to watch in different ways. As long as you recognize
>this, I think you'll at least be willing to keep them around... but not
>necessarily like them.
Your description of these guys ("not hard workers, but a lot of fun to
watch") is the same as the job description for midgets and the Bushwhackers.
If your plan is to use them the same as Vince has used midgets and the
Whackers, then there's probably no problem here. That is, in their
current incarnations, Doink & Undertaker could team up and wrestle
the Bushwhackers in the opener comedy match in the new promotion.
Other than that, they have no place. Why? See my explanation of
when gimmicks are too much.
>>> I would then beg and grovel to get the following
>>> to come (or return) to the WWF: Ultimate Warrior (yes, I like him,
>>> and so do millions of marks... we'd need him to fill seats), J
>> This is fine, as long as he looks at the ceiling when he wrestles a
>> more talented worker (basically everybody). If you want him to be
>> the "main man" of the promotion, you've already isolated me.
>Like I said... he's there to fill seats. Sure he'll get quite a few wins
>(otherwise the marks won't want to see him in person any more), but there
>wouldn't be any titles in the new WWF for him. Pretty much he'll get a two
>or three big feuds a year against some of the bigger names in the
>federation... I don't know, maybe this constitutes being a "main man" in
>your eyes... maybe it doesn't.
It does. He shouldn't even be placed in the middle of the card, let
alone in main events. He can follow the Undertaker & Doink vs. Whackers
comedy match.
>>> Jushin
>>> Liger (to force all of you to actually watch the WWF... :)),
>> Politically impossible. But a nice dream.
>I did, of course, mean this mostly as a joke. But I am curious to find out
>what about the politics of Japansese wrestling makes this an "impossible"
>dream. I'm always looking to further my scarce knowledge about wrestling
>across the Pacific.
With the current link that New Japan and WCW have, there's no way that
Liger would be able to work for the WWF. If the NJ/WCW link crumbles
then it's possible.
>>> Roddy
>>> Piper (as a part time wrestler, full time announcer),
>> Strictly announcing would be fine.
>Having him wrestle a bit would be better, I think. When I mentioned adding
>a little bit of improvisation to the ring, Hot Rod is who I had in mind.
>Whenever I saw him wrestle, he seemed to be adding little things along the way.
>That's why I found him highly entertaining, both in the ring and out.
I'll concede Piper.
>Maybe, maybe not... I think what I'd mostly like to do is to separate out
>the _SUPER_heavies from everyone else. But adding in a "middleheavyweight"
>class would fragment the federation a bit too much. The solution is to
>have a very generous weight limit on being a lightheavy; say 245 lbs.
>This way the really light guys (like Lightning Kid, Scotty Flamingo, and
>even Shawn Michaels) aren't too outmatched by the "middleweights" like Owen
>Hart, Terry Taylor, and maybe even Randy Savage or Bob Backlund. Or do
>think that having both a light heavyweight _and_ middleweight class is
>feasible?
Too many divisions would be bad. Calling it "light" heavyweight implies
some sort of weight restriction. I think 245 lbs is a high limit. The
Japanese call them "Jr." heavyweight titles, which in my mind makes it
okay to have an unclear weight cut-off. But "Jr." would have negative
cannotations here in NA. As long as the matches are hot in the new
division and the wrestlers don't cross-over in singles matches (occasional
tags would be fine and would be a good way of moving somebody from the
"Jr." division to the heavyweight division), this would get over.
>I don't really like the idea of going to the Japanese touring system, but I
>do like the idea of a segment that reviews recent house show activity. I'm
>not sure the touring system is feasible on a nationwide basis here in
>America; I mean, the USA and Canada are about 20 times larger than Japan.
>Either the tours would have to be much longer, or it would only hit a few
>selected cities.
You can cycle the regions that you hit. Shit, the WWF is already doing that
it seems. They just played in Toronto and they won't be back until July.
Touring this way may make the house bigger since visits are less frequent.
Of course, you have to keep TV good so that eveybody stays with your
product.
>>>5) Most of all, be CREATIVE... this means letting wrestlers improv a
>>> little bit, increasing the workrate, and booking more believable
>>> (and interesting) ending to matches. You can't really define
>>> these things... they just sort of have to happen. And with a
>>> quality roster of lightheavies like the one I proposed, it
>>> could happen.
>> In could happen in the light heavyweight matches, but not in the heavyweight
>> matches, unless you dramatically change the roster and eliminate the
>> heavy reliance on gimmicks. I think the key thing is to exclusively
>> book based on ability. The guys who work the best will be on top of the
>> card, making the match quality increase as the night goes on.
>Booking based on ability means different things to different people... To
>Herb, it undoubtably means "booking based on workrate." To Vince McMahon
>it means "booking based on how many tickets the guy sells." I
As we are seeing in North America now, booking based on drawing power
as Vince has done can bring the worst guys to the top of the promotion
and kill interest in the product. In contrast, the Japanese groups
book almost exclusively on ability and have no problem drawing crowds.
My point is that if you start pushing guys based on ability, that ability
is what becomes the draw. There will be a period of re-education but
I really think that it will be swift. Did you see the WCW tag title
change between Steamboat & Douglas vs. Pillman & Austin? Those guys
worked great and the crowd popped big time for every big move. The
crowd reaction was fantastic. If you book things so that all of your
matches have quality workers against each other, you'll get that
reaction, which will increase interest in the product.
>I'd like to
>pick some kind of happy medium... so that we have a high(er) workrate
>_and_ so that we play to full arenas. Yes, this does mean guys like
>Undertaker and Hulk Hogan get to win alot of matches; but they will also
>lose a few.
They can win lots of matches, but not against the guy you list below:
>Guys like Bret and Owen Hart, Ted DiBiase, Curt Henning, and
>Shawn Michaels will be marquee wrestlers, too. I'd probably book the
>workers as champions and the top challengers, while the big names who
>sell the tickets get are more of the "side show."
The problem that has yet to be dealt with in this scenario is "ego."
Ultimate Warrior had an ego problem and that's why he's gone. Hogan
has an ego problem, but he delivers at the box office while he deigns
to stick around so Vince has to live with it or not use him. How are
you gonna get guys who are draws in the WWF *only because of their
gimmicks* (i.e. Undertaker, say) to be happy on the undercard? You
can't, unless you start changing the reason that you draw a crowd.
Then Undertaker is no longer the big draw that he was; he's replaced
by guys that *wrestle* and *draw*. Where else will he be able to go
and earn money if he doesn't want to work the undercard here? WCW?
Hopefully they're too smart to go that gimmicky. Independents? He'll
earn less. Japan? He won't get over unless he works and then he
might as well have taken a gimmick tone-down here and started working.
Mexico? Maybe, but he'll have to work there too. Vince made the
market for these gimmicky non-wrestlers. If we kill it in "our new
WWF" the market will cease to exist anywhere.
Herb...
