Razor angle -- What an opening for Vince!
John Chick
Am I the only one who feels that the WCW have left themselves wide open
for Vince with this angle. Think about it: all Vince has to do is spend
some time on upcomming broadcasts explaining that Scott Hall and Kevin Nash
are no longer with the WWF and are being paid by the WCW. With this done,
not even the markest of marks will see through the angle. In time, it will
become boring.
Second, if Bischoff thinks that he can avoid a law suit by not mentioning
Razor Ramones name he's dreaming. In fact, by simply stating "we all know
who this is" he has basically admitted that he is using a character that the
WWF has the rights to. The whole angle is built around Scott Hall and Kevin
Nash playing Razor and Diesel. I think Vince will sue the hell out of WCW, and
there won't be a jury in the world who will by the excuse of not using the
name Razor Ramone or Diesel.
Dave Mornhinweg
On Wed, 29 May 1996, John Chick wrote:
> Am I the only one who feels that the WCW have left themselves wide open
> for Vince with this angle. Think about it: all Vince has to do is spend
> some time on upcomming broadcasts explaining that Scott Hall and Kevin Nash
> are no longer with the WWF and are being paid by the WCW. With this done,
> not even the markest of marks will see through the angle. In time, it will
> become boring.
Most promoters, especially Vince, are reluctant to mention the
competition directly in any fashion. I agree with you, though, that
Vince should go after this one. It would only take one simple statement
to shoot down this angle completely (if the angle is going where we all
think it's going).
I think the question should not be "Should Vince do this?", but rather
"When should Vince do this?" Should he wait for Bischoff to build the
angle up into a WCW vs. WWF war, as it appears he is going to, or should
Vince nip it in the bud now? There are pros and cons for both.
MODO, the ideal way to do this would be to let Bischoff build the angle
up like we all think he will, and then clobber him with an announcement
that Hall and Nash haven't worked for the WWF since 5/19/96 (or so).
However, this runs the risk of Bischoff somehow changing the angle or
just letting it slide under the rug while he attempted to repackage Hall
and Nash. Remember, this is WCW, where a rather small percentage of
angles go to their completion.
=========================================================================
Dave Mornhinweg Penn State College of Earth and Mineral Sciences
e-mail: mor...@essc.psu.edu www: http://www.ems.psu.edu/~mornhin/
=========================================================================
Mark Davenport
In <1779677ED...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> JCH...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (John
Chick) writes:
>
>
>Am I the only one who feels that the WCW have left themselves wide
open
>for Vince with this angle. Think about it: all Vince has to do is
spend
>some time on upcomming broadcasts explaining that Scott Hall and Kevin
Nash
>are no longer with the WWF and are being paid by the WCW. With this
done,
>not even the markest of marks will see through the angle. In time, it
will
>become boring.
>
mentioning
>Razor Ramones name he's dreaming. In fact, by simply stating "we all
know
>who this is" he has basically admitted that he is using a character
that the
Kevin
>Nash playing Razor and Diesel. I think Vince will sue the hell out of
WCW, and
>there won't be a jury in the world who will by the excuse of not using
the
>name Razor Ramone or Diesel.
That is about the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do say
um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
Oh please the wwf has no grounds for a lawsuit you can't copyright the
way a person acts.
What are they gonna do sue him for his toothpick did the wwf all of a
sudden copyright toothpicks.
I have'nt used this in awhile but its fits, you are a wwf lemming
bigtime.
All wcw would have to do if the wwf talked about Nash and Hall not
being under contract is either say these guys are rouge wwfers on a
rampage or say its part of vinces plan to keep this secret. God some of
you people can't admit when wcw does something good, i.e. you are a
lemming.
If the wwf can get away with calling vader, "the man they call vader"
wcw can get away with having Hall act like his former persona.
The thought that the wwf can copyright the way a person acts is pretty
lame. You can copyright a name not a personality.
If you could get sued for someone acting the same look At Hunter
Hemsley he is using the exact same gimmick as he was using in wcw and
even further he is copying Lord Steven Regals gimmick.
If your logic held true wcw could sue for that. Get over it this is a
good angle just admit it, god will it kill you to give Eric some
credit.
Wetzel Drake
Mark Davenport wrote:
No, I think you're wrong. Hall is not going in as a different
character. He is in there as Razor Ramon. He said "You know who
this is." Don't even try to start your crap about being a lemming
on me. I am admitting that it is a good angle, and I am giving
Bischoff credit for it. I think that it is great. But, I think that
it is an infringment of the Razor Ramon character. Remember when
Big Bubba could not use 'The Boss'? You give the same response to
every article. Just because someone questions the legality of something,
they are not questioning the quality of it or how much they like it.
I like this angle, but I do not know if they can get away with it. I
keep an open mind. You do not, and that is why you are WCW Mark
Davenport. You said you can only copyright a name, not a character.
Do you really think that Mark Callous can go to WCW and call himself
'The Gravedigger', and keep the dead gimmick and whatever else he does?
No, he cannot. BTW, is your spelling that bad on purpose? Think before
you type next time, and don't even try to flame me, because you've dug
yourself in a hole so deep you can't get out.
--
Wetzel Drake
A Shawn Michaels mark and not afraid to admit it
Shawn Michaels: The next Hulk Hogan? I don't think so!
Go Orioles! 28-20 Tied for First!
Roberto Alomar: .400 Brady Anderson: 19 HR's
B. Lutz
In article <4ohvfl$3...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) wrote:
> That is about the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
> You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
> playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do say
> um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
So... explain to me why The man they called Bossman wasn't allowed to play
a cop in WCW...
> I have'nt used this in awhile but its fits, you are a wwf lemming
> bigtime.
er... I know that I'm hardly a Whiff lemming, but this seems to walk the
line of copyright infringement... most likely, there will not be legal
action, but you never know. Either way, I can't see Vince winning any
money from all of this.
> All wcw would have to do if the wwf talked about Nash and Hall not
> being under contract is either say these guys are rouge wwfers on a
> rampage or say its part of vinces plan to keep this secret.
rouge wrestlers? I sure hope that they don't pull in Nash with an Adrian
Adonis gimick.
> If the wwf can get away with calling vader, "the man they call vader"
> wcw can get away with having Hall act like his former persona.
Turner doesn't own the Vader trademark, brainiac.
Mark.... please.... learn how to use commas, as well as some common sense.
Brian
--
Listen to my radio program, 'Moonsault', Monday mornings at 2am, only on Chicago's Sound Experiment-- WNUR 89.3 FM
Kyle Maurer
This would be stupid of Vince...that would basically be saying publicly
that wrestlers only do what they are told. Secondly, it doesn't matter,
because people will watch this angle because it is fresh, interesting, and
not to mention that Razor and Diesel were two of the best the WWF has to
offer if such a thing did happen. Just because the WWF doesn't give their
blessing for this war, for all intents and purposes it might as well be
WWF vs WCW. Weather or not vince backs them up makes no difference.
On Wednesday, May 29, 1996, John Chick wrote...
Mark Davenport
In <shampoo-2905...@efc093032.res-hall.nwu.edu>
sha...@nwu.edu (B. Lutz) writes:
>
>In article <4ohvfl$3...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) wrote:
>
>> That is about the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
>> You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
>> playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do
say
>> um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
>
>So... explain to me why The man they called Bossman wasn't allowed to
play
>a cop in WCW...
Playing a cop with the same name is copywright infringment.
Playing an italion with an attitude can not be copywrighted. Is the
wwf going to start copywrighting ethnic persona's.
Bottom line they can't, thier is no way in the world the wwf can
copywirght a guy being italion, which right now is all Hall is in wcw.
>
>> I have'nt used this in awhile but its fits, you are a wwf lemming
>> bigtime.
>
>er... I know that I'm hardly a Whiff lemming, but this seems to walk
the
>line of copyright infringement... most likely, there will not be legal
>action, but you never know. Either way, I can't see Vince winning any
>money from all of this.
What is being said is that Razor can't keep his gimmcik in wcw.
Razor did not have a profession gimmick like big boss being a cop.
As long as they do not call him Razor Ramone their is nothing the wwf
can do about it. Razor is not portraying a specific job or gimmick all
he is doing is acting like an italion this cannot be copywrighted.
>> All wcw would have to do if the wwf talked about Nash and Hall not
>> being under contract is either say these guys are rouge wwfers on a
>> rampage or say its part of vinces plan to keep this secret.
>
>rouge wrestlers? I sure hope that they don't pull in Nash with an
Adrian
>Adonis gimick.
>
>> If the wwf can get away with calling vader, "the man they call
vader"
>> wcw can get away with having Hall act like his former persona.
>
>Turner doesn't own the Vader trademark, brainiac.
Yea wcw does'nt own the trademark to Vader but someone does or else
they would'nt be pulling this the man they call Vader crap. Don't you
think if they could the would just call him Vader, their is someone who
will sue the wwf if they use the name Vader. But Razor in wcw is
different no names were used the only thing that Razor did was come in
and act like an italion, again this cannot be copywrighted.
>
>Mark.... please.... learn how to use commas, as well as some common
sense.
>
>Brian
Ok lets look at some common sence here.
Hunter Helmsley same attitude and gimmick as in WCW different name no
copywirght infringment. And this gimmick is identical to Lord Steven
Regal but again no copywright infringment considering Regals gimmick is
that he's english this cannot be copywrighted.
Razor same attitude and gimmick, have'nt used any names yet, no
copywirght infringment. The wwf cannot copywirght an attitude all they
can do is copywright names or outfits or specific jobs that pertain to
a gimmick. They cannot copywright attitude or personality it's just not
going to happen.
The poster of this thread was trying to say Vince will sue and wcw
would be in shit creek, this is not going to happen seeing everything I
have pointed out. You can't copywright an attitude which is the only
thing that is similar to Razor Ramone in wcw's version of Scott Hall.
Simon Jester
>No, I think you're wrong. Hall is not going in as a different
>character. He is in there as Razor Ramon. He said "You know who
>this is." Don't even try to start your crap about being a lemming
>on me. I am admitting that it is a good angle, and I am giving
>Bischoff credit for it. I think that it is great. But, I think that
>it is an infringment of the Razor Ramon character. Remember when
>Big Bubba could not use 'The Boss'? You give the same response to
>every article. Just because someone questions the legality of something,
>they are not questioning the quality of it or how much they like it.
>I like this angle, but I do not know if they can get away with it. I
>keep an open mind. You do not, and that is why you are WCW Mark
>Davenport. You said you can only copyright a name, not a character.
>Do you really think that Mark Callous can go to WCW and call himself
>'The Gravedigger', and keep the dead gimmick and whatever else he does?
>No, he cannot. BTW, is your spelling that bad on purpose? Think before
>you type next time, and don't even try to flame me, because you've dug
>yourself in a hole so deep you can't get out.
Hey guys, it really doesn't matter because the Whiff is probably going
to sue regardless of whether or not there is any merit to the case.
That is how Vinnie Mac shows his loyalty to former employees. How
many lawsuits did the WWF file against Ed Leslie when he popped up in
WCW? It's funny that in most cases, it is the wrestler that comes up
with the gimmick, makes it successful, but ends up getting screwed in
the long run.
Simon Jester
Evan Schlesinger
In article <4ohvfl$3...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Mark Davenport <gig...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <1779677ED...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> JCH...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (John
>Chick) writes:
>>
>>
>You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
>playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do say
>um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
>way a person acts.
While it probably won't happen as far as the Razor Ramon character goes, you
can indeed copyright characters. If Six Flags decided to create a character in
their amusement parks, call him "Marty Mouse" and have him dress up almost
exactly like Mickey, Disney would sue and win.
EVAN
NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
Evan Schlesinger
In article <4oijlj$j...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Mark Davenport <gig...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <shampoo-2905...@efc093032.res-hall.nwu.edu>
>sha...@nwu.edu (B. Lutz) writes:
>>
>>In article <4ohvfl$3...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) wrote:
>>
>>> You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
>>> playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do
>say
>>> um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
>>
>play
>>a cop in WCW...
>
>Playing a cop with the same name is copywright infringment.
> Playing an italion with an attitude can not be copywrighted. Is the
>wwf going to start copywrighting ethnic persona's.
>Bottom line they can't, thier is no way in the world the wwf can
>copywirght a guy being italion, which right now is all Hall is in wcw.
Razor Ramon is Cuban, shitforbrains.
EVAN
NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
Mark Davenport
In <4oj59g$3...@news.acns.nwu.edu> esc...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Evan
Gee Evan your credibilty keeps growing as you flame people for no other
reason then just to be an asshole.
If anything this proves my point that you just love to flame people to
feed your own ego.
Was my post in anyway offensive to anyone no it was'nt, did I use foul
language to try and prove my point, no I did'nt. Did you come in and
qoute an entire post just to only put one line in yes you did.
Can anyone here say hypocrite.
You qoute an entire post and all you do is put one line of vulger
insults.
Gee Evan thanx for proving my point once again, with you acting like
this all ill have to do is sit back and watch you destroy yourself.
Bmoore2112
In article <4oijlj$j...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark
Davenport) writes:
>Playing a cop with the same name is copywright infringment.
> Playing an italion with an attitude can not be copywrighted. Is the
>wwf going to start copywrighting ethnic persona's.
>Bottom line they can't, thier is no way in the world the wwf can
>copywirght a guy being italion, which right now is all Hall is in wcw.
>
>
Try Cuban...
Bairman
Mike Naimark
>> I think Vince will sue the hell out of
>>WCW, and
>>>there won't be a jury in the world who will by the excuse of not using
>>the
>>>name Razor Ramone or Diesel.
>>
>>You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
>>playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do say
>>um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
>>way a person acts.
>While it probably won't happen as far as the Razor Ramon character goes, you
>can indeed copyright characters. If Six Flags decided to create a character in
>their amusement parks, call him "Marty Mouse" and have him dress up almost
>exactly like Mickey, Disney would sue and win.
Marty Mouse is a fictional character, while Kevin Nash and Scott Hall
are apparently real human beings. One of the problems folks have in
assessing the legal ramifications of wrestling charcters is that the
previous attempts at ripping characters have been so ham-handed and
mindless. If Jim Hellwig were the Renegade, the WWF would be
powerless to stop him from shaking the ropes and charging to the ring.
These aspects of the character belong to Hellwig, and he repeated them
across independants across the nation, including an appearance in the
local USWA as 'The Warrior'. Not the 'Ultimate Warrior', mind you.
THAT is owned by Titan. But much like Hulk Hogan can continue to
'Hulk-Up', and as Randy Savage can still say "Oh yeah, dig it", and
Jim Duggan can still chant "USA", Hall and Nash would be free to speak
in character because Titan hold no propritary rights to big thugs and
hispanics.
Mike
>EVAN
>NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
Mike Naimark
>>>> That is about the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
>>>> You cannot copyright a personality and you cannot sue people for
>>>> playing a charactor under a different name. What is wwf going to do
>>say
>>>> um he's acting like our charactor we must sue.
>>>
>>>So... explain to me why The man they called Bossman wasn't allowed to
>>play
>>>a cop in WCW...
>>
>>Playing a cop with the same name is copywright infringment.
>> Playing an italion with an attitude can not be copywrighted. Is the
>>wwf going to start copywrighting ethnic persona's.
>>Bottom line they can't, thier is no way in the world the wwf can
>>copywirght a guy being italion, which right now is all Hall is in wcw.
>Razor Ramon is Cuban, shitforbrains.
Well, regardless of what this guy's brains are made of (mine are
mostly neurons and glia, not counting the ventricles), these are two
entirely different situations. To have Ray Traylor play a police
officer under the name 'The Boss' is clear and blatant infringement on
Titan's intellectual property. To make him a cop named, 'Officer
Friendly' would NOT be an infringement, nor would calling him 'The
Boss' and dressing him like a construction foreman. Hall's WWF
character is named Razor Ramon and purports to be Cuban; were WCW to
invent a character named 'Ramon Martinez' and make him Puerto Rican, I
doubt the WWF would be able to triumph in court because of the
fundemental dissimilarities between the characters.
FWIW, prior to being a 'Bootyman', WCW experimented with Ed Lesie as a
'Brutus the Barber' rip-off named the Clipmaster. They were quickly
contacted by their legal help who informed them that for Leslie to
bring hedge clippers into the ring AND play a barber-type character
would be a violation of WWF legal property. The BootyMan is free to
bring hedgeclippers to the ring, but what would be the point?
Mike
Trevor Barrie
JCH...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (John Chick) wrote:
>Second, if Bischoff thinks that he can avoid a law suit by not mentioning
>Razor Ramones name he's dreaming. In fact, by simply stating "we all know
>who this is" he has basically admitted that he is using a character that the
>WWF has the rights to.
Sure, we all know who it is... it's Scott Hall, the guy who used to
play Razor Ramon in the WWF.:)
Seriously, you're probably right. If they couldn't get away with The
Boss and they couldn't get away with Renegade, chances are they're not
going to get away with this.
Mark Davenport
In <4ollrf$4...@bud.peinet.pe.ca> tba...@cycor.ca (Trevor Barrie)
writes:
also with big boss man he was a cop. With scott hall the only thing he
had in common with razor is the toothpick.
The wwf cannot copywright the way scott hall naturally looks which is
the only thing that Razor and scott hall have in common.
I mean what are the wwf going to do make him dye his hair and change
the way his face looks.
Big boss mans gimmick was being a cop he was'nt alowed to be a cop in
wcw but they can't say razor cant be hispanic if he already looks that
way.
If they copywrighted the razor gimmick with a toothpick than the wwf
has a case other than that they are helpless seeing as he did not wear
his razor outfit and did not mention his name.
All he did was come in as scott hall really as he had nothing in
common with Razor except that his natural apearance was the same.
Simon Jester
The only problem is that a lawsuit can be started regardless of whether there is a legal basis or
not. The Whiff has filed tons of them against WCW, especially with Ed Leslie. That is one of the
major reasons that Ed had to change gimmicks so many times when he first hit WCW. According to his
online interview, Leslie says that the WWF routinely files these lawsuits in Connecticut, forcing
him and WCW lawyers to fly all the way up there to defend against them. Doesn't it make you feel
good to know that Connecticut state taxes are being used so well. Regardless of its merit, there
will probably be a lawsuit.
Simon Jester
mer...@epix.net
Hall and Nash Own There names Since the were In the WWF for The past Five
years. WWF only Holds Title on The Names They Created Over The past four
years That's Why Hogan and Savage have been able to use there names and Why
Steve Austin Dropped The name Ringmaster. You think They'll be able to take
Heart Break Kid Shawn Micheals name Away Remember he Brought Kevin Nash In As
Desiel
Bryan Graupmann
|> wwf going to start copywrighting ethnic persona's.
|> Bottom line they can't, thier is no way in the world the wwf can
|> copywirght a guy being italion, which right now is all Hall is in wcw.
Not that it really matters, but, the Razor Ramon character is supposed to be
Cuban.
I'm not going to be the least bit surprised if Hall's character is called
Blades or something along that line.
Bmoore2112
In article <4oltr6$s...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) writes:
> All he did was come in as scott hall really as he had nothing in
>common with Razor except that his natural apearance was the same.
I remember Big Scott Hall as a face in the mid/late 80s (before the
Diamond Studd days) wrestling for NWA, and he not only did not LOOK Cuban,
he didn't SOUND Cuban either. Hell, he had long, sandy brown hair (no
grease), and a moustache! The entire persona he's portraying on WCW right
now (toothpick included) originated with the Diamond Studd, and continued
and was refined with Razor Ramon.
I don't think Vince would have a leg to stand on in court (especially if
he hires Clarence Mason as his attorney <snicker>).
Bairman
Patrick Calvert
Enough of the arguments,he's not cuban,italian,or mexican. He's really
AMERICAN!!
Anonymous IU Student
I think the WWF has a right to file a lawsuit on the premises that Hall
said "You know who I am" insinuating that he was indeed, Razor Ramon.
Also, Hall doesn't have a natural Hispanic accent, yet he was using it
on Nitro. This along with the toothpick is very good basis for a
lawsuit in my opinion.
michigan Meadows
Anonymous IU Student
Nameless Solforge
On 29 May 1996, Mark Davenport wrote:
> If the wwf can get away with calling vader, "the man they call vader"
> wcw can get away with having Hall act like his former persona.
There's a small error here...Razor Ramon, the name, can be copyrighted by
the WWF, since that's where the gimmick originated. But Vader has been
Vader through WWF, WCW, Japan, etc...Vader himself owns the rights to that
name, so he can take it anywhere he chooses.
However, you are quite correct in that you can't copyright a personality.
Hall is acting like Razor, but he hasn't once mentioned he was "Razor
Ramon" by name, or mentioned the WWF as of yet, so he's home free for now.
Nameless Solforge du Kirstine MH /( )\_/( )\
mhenry @ax.com @windrunner.com Grey Ranger /' \ ( o o ) / `\
< \_)\./(_/ >
Anarchy-X BBS Everdark LPMud \ / \ /
619-264-8685 anarchyx.com <new location pending> `\_( )_/'
-=================================== a wicked creation * ====oooO===Oooo=====-
"If kisses could kill, that one would've flattened several small towns."
Davy Nicholson
In message <NEWTNews.833565...@epix.net>
mer...@epix.net writes:
> Hall and Nash Own There names Since the were In the WWF for The past Five
> years.
Hall - four years
Nash - three years
Doesn't time pass when you're having fun?
> WWF only Holds Title on The Names They Created Over The past four
> years
That's why they were threatening legal action over Ray traylor being
called the Boss in WCW when he was called Big Bossman in the WWF. and
the ongoing Ed Leslie saga ?
Beyond that I'm afraid you get incoherent
ar...@cts.com
> gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) writes:
>
> The wwf cannot copywright the way scott hall naturally looks which is
> the only thing that Razor and scott hall have in common.
> I mean what are the wwf going to do make him dye his hair and change
> the way his face looks.
> Big boss mans gimmick was being a cop he was'nt alowed to be a cop in
> wcw but they can't say razor cant be hispanic if he already looks that
> way.
> If they copywrighted the razor gimmick with a toothpick than the wwf
> has a case other than that they are helpless seeing as he did not wear
> his razor outfit and did not mention his name.
> common with Razor except that his natural apearance was the same.
>
>
>>>>
" All Rights Reserved. All distinctive names and character likenesses used herein are trademarks
of TitanSports, Inc. "
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how far they can go before legal action can be taken......BUT.... if
you honestly believe Scott Hall came in as Scott Hall and only resembled Razor Ramone
appearancewise, then you must be a bigger idiot then you are given credit for.
ARAWN
Bmoore2112
In article <4onl30$p...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, Anonymous IU Student
<stu...@indiana.edu> writes:
They can file, but they won't win. Scott Hall was using the Cuban persona
in WCW before there ever WAS a Razor Ramon. How do you know Hall didn't
mean The Diamond Studd when he said, "You know who I am"? Any fan of WCW
that's been around for a few years knows of the Studd.
Bairman
jorge l fernandez
: Hall's WWF
: character is named Razor Ramon and purports to be Cuban; were WCW to
: invent a character named 'Ramon Martinez' and make him Puerto Rican, I
: doubt the WWF would be able to triumph in court because of the
: fundemental dissimilarities between the characters.
unfortunately, all the WWF would have to gripe about right now is the fact
that Hall is still speaking with an dumb accent (funny how i'm cuban
and Scott Hall has never succeeded in sounding remotely like anyone i
know). the entire look, the bleached slick hair, the 5 o'clock shadow, it
was all done by WCW when Hall was The Diamond Studd. if the accent is
enough for legal action, i don't know....
Vizh
> years That's Why Hogan and Savage have been able to use there names and Why
> Steve Austin Dropped The name Ringmaster.
Last I checked, the name Hulk Hogan was licensed to Marvel Comics. Of course,
this was quite a number of years ago - I'm not sure what its status is now.
..vizh
"Fuck! I've got shit on my hands!"
WITKOWSKI JACEK
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960531...@mindcrime.ax.com>,
Nameless Solforge <mhe...@mindcrime.ax.com> wrote:
>
>There's a small error here...Razor Ramon, the name, can be copyrighted by
>the WWF, since that's where the gimmick originated. But Vader has been
>Vader through WWF, WCW, Japan, etc...Vader himself owns the rights to that
>name, so he can take it anywhere he chooses.
> However, you are quite correct in that you can't copyright a personality.
>Hall is acting like Razor, but he hasn't once mentioned he was "Razor
>Ramon" by name, or mentioned the WWF as of yet, so he's home free for now.
>
Vader may be the property of George Lucas, who hasn't objected yet. I
have no idea what the point of the "The Man They Call" thing is, though.
As for the other point, if personalities can't be copyrighted, how is it
that WWF managed to force WCW to change The Boss into the Guardian Angel
because his Boss persona was too close to The Big Bossman he was in WWF?
And of course, how is it that they managed to stop the Renegade from
doing Ultimate Warrior motions? More than just names can be copyrighted,
that's for sure. There may be special circumstances regarding Scott Hall
that allow him to keep his personality, but I bet that Diesel will get a
major overhaul, that personality is for sure property of WWF.
mnai...@utmem1.utmem.edu
Anonymous IU Student <stu...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>I think the WWF has a right to file a lawsuit on the premises that Hall
>said "You know who I am" insinuating that he was indeed, Razor Ramon.
>Also, Hall doesn't have a natural Hispanic accent, yet he was using it
>on Nitro. This along with the toothpick is very good basis for a
>lawsuit in my opinion.
Indeed. This would open the way for a lawsuit against Titan and McMahon
on behalf of Martin Scorcese and Al Pacino for infringement on the 'Tony
Montana' character from Scarface, whose manerisms are nearly identical
to Razor Ramons.
Further legal action could come from Stephen King, as the evil 'Doink'
character was the spitting image of the evil clown in it. Doink would
be in further trouble if the author of 'Cotton Candy Autopsy' (a book of
illustrations of evil clowns, one complete with frowning flower) decides
to file suit against Titan.
And woe be unto Titan should Brian Bosworth, star of the movie 'Stone
Cold', decide that Steve Austin's current gimmick imfringed on his
potential movie earnings.
Well, maybe not Bosworth; that no-talent deserves what he gets.
MN
mnai...@utmem1.utmem.edu
wit...@ecf.toronto.edu (WITKOWSKI JACEK) wrote:
>As for the other point, if personalities can't be copyrighted, how is it
>that WWF managed to force WCW to change The Boss into the Guardian Angel
>because his Boss persona was too close to The Big Bossman he was in WWF?
>And of course, how is it that they managed to stop the Renegade from
>doing Ultimate Warrior motions?
These are, IMO, far different circumstances, as I have mentioned in previous posts. A mental litmus test you can perform to assess =
the validity of these infringements is simply to describe to yourself what this character entails. For Ray 'Bossman' Trayler, his W=
WF persona was that he was a prison guard, and his name was the Big Bossman. For the WCW to call him 'Boss' and dress him like a co=
p is a clear violation of the WWF's intellectual property. This does not prevent the 'cop' gimmick from being used by ANYONE, inclu=
ding Traylor (rememebr the State Patrol), but the name in conjunction with the persona leaves no significant differences between the=
two characters. Trayler could dress as a cop and be called 'Officer Surley', or dress liek a foreman and be called 'The Boss', wit=
hout any legal challenges from Titan.
More than just names can be copyrighted,
>that's for sure. There may be special circumstances regarding Scott Hall
>that allow him to keep his personality, but I bet that Diesel will get a
>major overhaul, that personality is for sure property of WWF.
Well, describe Diesel's personality in the WWF. He was a big, tough, goon-type who wore leather and talked with a 'thug' accent. D=
o you really think these circumstances can be copyrighted? Is Kevin Nash forbidden from wearing leather chaps for the duration of h=
is career in professional wrestling? Will he be forced by legal challenges to speak with a lisp? And what of Nash's own statements=
, published in the Memphis Commercial Appeal before all this interfederation warring, that he had been called 'Big Daddy Cool' since=
high school? Certainly the name 'Diesel' is an infringement of the WWF, but what else can honestly be considered original intellec=
tual property? Might as well patent the powerbomb.
MN
WITKOWSKI JACEK
>
> These are, IMO, far different circumstances, as I have mentioned in previous
not prevent the 'cop' gimmick from being used by ANYONE, including Traylor
>
OK, the situation was pretty clear in the Bossman case. You're right,
there was no difference between the two. But then, is there any
difference between Razor Ramon and the WCW "You know who I am"? And
also, if the only problem with "The Boss" was that both the gimmick and
the name were too close, wouldn't WCW be able to get away just with a big
name change, like Officer Surley? Why did they have to go all the way to
the Guardian Angel?
> Well, describe Diesel's personality in the WWF. He was a big, tough,
> goon-type who wore leather and talked with a 'thug' accent. Do you
> really think these circumstances can be copyrighted? Is Kevin Nash
> forbidden from wearing leather chaps for the duration of his career in
> professional wrestling? Will he be forced by legal challenges to speak
> with a lisp? And what of Nash's own statements, published in the
> Memphis Commercial Appeal before all this interfederation warring, that
> he had been called 'Big Daddy Cool' since high school? Certainly the
> name 'Diesel' is an infringement of the WWF, but what else can honestly
> be considered original intellectual property? Might as well patent the
> powerbomb. >
Yeah, I agree that it sounds like it shouldn't be anything. But I think
you're basing this just on how "normal" the gimmicks of Hall and Nash
were in the WWF. If they were both clowns, and WCW brought them out in
their clown outfits, then most would probably agree that WWF has a case.
But since they are so "normal" and WCW brings them out doing their
previous gimmicks, many feel that there is no case. I am just wondering
whether it really makes a difference, legally, whether the character is
as distinctive as a clown, or just a certain kind of regular guy. Also,
the argument gets obviously ridiculous when the parts of the character
are separated. People say "What, is Hall not allowed to have toothpicks
anymore?" and "What, is he not allowed to speak with a hispanic accent
anymore?", and obviously that's ridiculous, but when you put these two
things together, along with other parts of the persona, it becomes less
so.
Finally, this just smacks of something that lawyers would pounce on. I
mean, if someone forced Bischoff to apologize after making a veiled
reference to the WWF in connection with the Nitro power outage, you'd
think they could get something out of him for this. At least the WWF
seems confident, since as I recall, when Diesel's departure from the WWF
was announced on their AOL site, they even said there something to the
effect of "They can buy Kevin Nash, but not Diesel". I get the feeling
that there will be some legal action over this, whether successful or
not, who knows. But its all probably too late to do anything for the
WWF. The damage is done. All WCW has to do now, most likely, is say
that "we" is not the WWF but some other group (make something up) and
give some new names to the two guys, and they're probably safe.
Troll-man
Scott Hall wasn't Cuban in WCW, although most of his character WAS
developed there.
Yuriy
Gilbert A. Crosby
On 4 Jun 1996 mnai...@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
> Anonymous IU Student <stu...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> >I think the WWF has a right to file a lawsuit on the premises that Hall
> >said "You know who I am" insinuating that he was indeed, Razor Ramon.
> >Also, Hall doesn't have a natural Hispanic accent, yet he was using it
> >on Nitro. This along with the toothpick is very good basis for a
> >lawsuit in my opinion.
>
Actually, I think the real opening for Vinnie Mac and Team Titan is
simple. Vinnie could just say "You may have heard about certain former
WWF stars popping up on our distinguished competition. Now, we have
always felt that WCW lacked the ability to create and develop their own
stars. How do they respond? (fake Hispanic accent) 'You know who I am!'"
This would reveal that even when Unca Eric gets one right, (Hall's
appearance WAS a surprise, after all) he still lacks the creativity to
develop his own stars, and would have dick for decent angles if he
couldn't use Billionaire Ted's $$$ to buy WWF'ers.
Gib.
Carl
>Actually, I think the real opening for Vinnie Mac and Team Titan is
>simple. Vinnie could just say "You may have heard about certain former
>WWF stars popping up on our distinguished competition. Now, we have
>always felt that WCW lacked the ability to create and develop their own
>stars. How do they respond? (fake Hispanic accent) 'You know who I am!'"
>This would reveal that even when Unca Eric gets one right, (Hall's
>appearance WAS a surprise, after all) he still lacks the creativity to
>develop his own stars, and would have dick for decent angles if he
>couldn't use Billionaire Ted's $$$ to buy WWF'ers.
Interesting point to make, at a time when a large part of the WWF
consists of former WCW wrestlers-Austin, Mero, Vader, Cactus, Goldust.
Carl
GMcnamee
In article <4p93nb$6...@goodnews.voicenet.com>, and...@omni.voicenet.com
(Carl) writes:
>>This would reveal that even when Unca Eric gets one right, (Hall's
>>appearance WAS a surprise, after all) he still lacks the creativity to
>>develop his own stars, and would have dick for decent angles if he
>>couldn't use Billionaire Ted's $$$ to buy WWF'ers.
>
> Interesting point to make, at a time when a large part of the WWF
>consists of former WCW wrestlers-Austin, Mero, Vader, Cactus, Goldust.
Of those five, only Vader was a major WCW player. The rest were
mid-carders. Dustin Rhodes never achieved much in WCW, and now, wether
you love or hate Goldust, he's a huge WWF attraction. Mero's gonna end up
being huge. Diesel and Razor were in WCW as well, as mid-carders. Vince
made them stars. In fact, here's an easy recipe on how to make millions
in wrestling...Start wrestling in independent federations, then start
making noise that you want to jump to the WWF. After you're signed by
WCW, wrestle at or below mid-card status for 1-2 years. After your
contract is up, sign with the WWF, become a huge star, then you can make
millions by resigning with WCW.
///Greg///
Mike Naimark
WITKOWSKI JACEK <wit...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>
>> These are, IMO, far different circumstances, as I have mentioned in previous
>posts. A mental litmus test you can perform to assess the validity of these
>infringements is simply to describe to yourself what this character entails.
>For Ray 'Bossman' Trayler, his WWF persona was that he was a prison guard, and
>his name was the Big Bossman. For the WCW to call him 'Boss' and dress him
>like a cop is a clear violation of the WWF's intellectual property. This does
>not prevent the 'cop' gimmick from being used by ANYONE, including Traylor
>(rememebr the State Patrol), but the name in conjunction with the persona
>leaves no significant differences between the two characters. Trayler could
>dress as a cop and be called 'Officer Surley', or dress liek a foreman and be
>called 'The Boss', without any legal challenges from Titan.
>>
>OK, the situation was pretty clear in the Bossman case. You're right,
>there was no difference between the two. But then, is there any
>difference between Razor Ramon and the WCW "You know who I am"? And
>also, if the only problem with "The Boss" was that both the gimmick and
>the name were too close, wouldn't WCW be able to get away just with a big
>name change, like Officer Surley? Why did they have to go all the way to
>the Guardian Angel?
IMO, WCW just decided to jettison the whole 'cop' gimmick in favor of
a more 'vigilante' like image. It flopped, but I would guess that
just about any gimmick that puts the blubbery Trayler in a t-shirt
will fail miserably.
As for the similarities between Razor and 'You know who I am', one
possible defense, and one that will undoubtedly be used in court, is
that WCW fans may 'know' who Hall is because the RR gimmick was so
similar in appearance to the Diamond Studd. They will similarly know
Kevin Nash, as his Diesel persona was near identical the the Vinnie
Vegas gimmick.
Just a thought. I'll be posting some info from a 3rd year law-student
friend sometime later this week.
>> Well, describe Diesel's personality in the WWF. He was a big, tough,
>> goon-type who wore leather and talked with a 'thug' accent. Do you
>> really think these circumstances can be copyrighted? Is Kevin Nash
>> forbidden from wearing leather chaps for the duration of his career in
>> professional wrestling? Will he be forced by legal challenges to speak
>> with a lisp? And what of Nash's own statements, published in the
>> Memphis Commercial Appeal before all this interfederation warring, that
>> he had been called 'Big Daddy Cool' since high school? Certainly the
>> name 'Diesel' is an infringement of the WWF, but what else can honestly
>> be considered original intellectual property? Might as well patent the
>> powerbomb. >
>Yeah, I agree that it sounds like it shouldn't be anything. But I think
>you're basing this just on how "normal" the gimmicks of Hall and Nash
>were in the WWF. If they were both clowns, and WCW brought them out in
>their clown outfits, then most would probably agree that WWF has a case.
>But since they are so "normal" and WCW brings them out doing their
>previous gimmicks, many feel that there is no case. I am just wondering
>whether it really makes a difference, legally, whether the character is
>as distinctive as a clown, or just a certain kind of regular guy.
How could you honestly hope to protect a gimmick as a regular guy?
Nash's attitude and manner of speaking were identical to the Diesel
character when he was Vinnie Vegas. Original ideas can be
copywrighted, I would guess, but to claim intellectual property over
someone's physical characteristics is doomed to failure. FWIW, Marc
Mero still looks like Little Richard.
>Also,
>the argument gets obviously ridiculous when the parts of the character
>are separated. People say "What, is Hall not allowed to have toothpicks
>anymore?" and "What, is he not allowed to speak with a hispanic accent
>anymore?", and obviously that's ridiculous, but when you put these two
>things together, along with other parts of the persona, it becomes less
>so.
As I have mentioned before, these aspects of the gimmick are so
generic that I doubt the WWF would be able to claim intellectual
property rights in court. Hall could be called 'Ramon Martinez', and
be Columbian while flicking cigarette butts. Titan will be hard
pressed to claim soverign rights to both Halls appearance, which is
identical to his WCW stint as the Studd, AND his manner of speaking,
which Titan specified as Cuban but is actually a piss-poor copy of any
Spanish accent.
>Finally, this just smacks of something that lawyers would pounce on. I
>mean, if someone forced Bischoff to apologize after making a veiled
>reference to the WWF in connection with the Nitro power outage, you'd
>think they could get something out of him for this. At least the WWF
>seems confident, since as I recall, when Diesel's departure from the WWF
>was announced on their AOL site, they even said there something to the
>effect of "They can buy Kevin Nash, but not Diesel". I get the feeling
>that there will be some legal action over this, whether successful or
>not, who knows. But its all probably too late to do anything for the
>WWF. The damage is done. All WCW has to do now, most likely, is say
>that "we" is not the WWF but some other group (make something up) and
>give some new names to the two guys, and they're probably safe.
I sincerely doubt the WWF can succeed in this action; Bischoff's
statements regarding the power outage was indented as a 'preemptive
strike' against any possible WWF legal actions, because the outage was
clearly NOT caused by the WWF.
However, this situation with Nash and Hall is clearly different, and
shows clear signs of planning and foresight. I'm sure the Turner
legal staff has been preparing its case for months now, in preparation
for the inevitable Titan challenge. Should Titan attempt to sue WCW
and lose, the impact to the WWF would be immeasurable.
MN
Troll-man
1. Ratings don't mean shit. The most highly rated shows on
television are some of the most poorly done.
2. The feud was escalated by Blayze throwing the belt in the trash
can, by Bishoff constantly insulting WWF, by Luger's "Where the big
boys play" thing. Vinnie Mac actually had some points among the
bunch of crap that most of the skits were. Calling names was started
by WCW.
Yuriy
Troll Man
Carl
>>
>> Interesting point to make, at a time when a large part of the WWF
>>consists of former WCW wrestlers-Austin, Mero, Vader, Cactus, Goldust.
> Of those five, only Vader was a major WCW player. The rest were
>mid-carders. Dustin Rhodes never achieved much in WCW, and now, wether
>you love or hate Goldust, he's a huge WWF attraction.
Dustin Rhodes was the U.S. champ, and the tag champ in WCW. Goldust a
huge WWF attraction? How do you explain the huge drop in ratings when
Vince opened Raw with Goldust lounging on the couch in the
bodystocking?
> Mero's gonna end up
>being huge.
Perhaps, but Johnny B. Badd was important in WCW as well-two time TV
champion, and many great matches. Steve Austin was TV champ and U.S.
champ. Cactus headlined the Halloween Havoc PPV against Vader, and had
a great feud against Sting. These guys were major players by anyone's
definition.
Carl