[WOMEN'S WRESTLING] Miscellaneous Stuff
Selena Kyte
I'll say this publically. Sorry to see you go, Jeremy. I will be
grateful, though, for creating this newsgroup where I can talk about my
favorite subject flame-free (though I'm not sure anybody really reads
these posts).
My condolences first of all to the family of one of the all-time great
lady wrestlers, June Byers (real name DeAlva Snyder) who passed away
back on Monday, July 20th at the age of 76.
Back when I was asking about the rumors of Reggie Bennett opening up an
all women's wrestling promotion, I was alerted to a message from NWA
President Howard Brody that at long last, he's going to revive their
Women's title. Well, someone should tell Debbie Combs, because she's
still advertising herself as the NWA Women's champion as recently as
last weekend in Kentucky, where she wrestled in a Mountain Wrestling
Association match. These folks need to get this issue settled once and
for all, because it's going to get ugly if they don't. Heck, it might
even wind up in court, which is not out of the realm of possibility
these days.
A couple of days later, I find out that the Ladies Pro Wrestling
Association is poised for a comeback with a series of pay-per-views.
Their website still lists Terri Power as the world champion, and Harley
Saito as the Japan champion. They list the tag team titles as vacant,
leading me to believe that Judy Martin retired and is training women at
her school. Will Leilani Kai, who is still wrestling, chose a new
partner to go after the titles?
Now, I'm reading Everett Will's comments from the other wrestling
newsgroup that the WWF wants to bring back Madusa and a Japanese
wrestler to restart their women's division for the umpteenth time. I
guess if ratings are involved, throwing away the women's title can be
forgivable...
I've tried to get a response from all this activity from the
Professional Girl Wrestling Association, but they haven't issued a
comment; neither to me personally, or through some other means. They
have told me in the past, however, that they did not want to be the only
company actively promoting women's wrestling. They wanted to be part of
an alliance of sorts between independent promoters. Looks like they'll
get their wish.
The main concern I'm getting from the few fans I've met online is that
before they get involved in another upstart promotion, they want to know
all of the plans upfront. They want to see a steady roster in place,
they want a reasonable marketing plan, including TV and tour plans, and
they want to see quality athletic competition. If they must feature
aging, known wrestlers, fine, but start recrutitng from these schools.
I know of three young women in the Fabulous Moolah's camp who she says
are the best prospects she's seen in all of her years in this business.
The bottom line is, no one wants to put their heart and soul supporting
a poorly organized women's promotion.
If all of these people, and some of the other groups (National Wrestling
League, Florida Championship Wrestling, New Dimension Wrestling) are
serious about bringing back some attention to women's pro wrestling,
perhaps they could do well to take some advice from their fans.
Remember back when I asked what it would take to get women's wrestling
back in the spotlight? (Of course, my project got lost in all the
WWF/WCW/ECW activity, but I'm sure someone remembers.) Well, I've been
taking notes, and at looks like at least one of the suggestions has come
to fruition.
I mentioned Everett Will, the only other person in the wrestling
newsgroups who is as serious a women's wrestling fan as I am. Well, he
went ahead and created a mailing list for discussion of women's pro
wrestling, and didn't even tell me about it! Well, he did give a strong
hint about it quite a few months ago. Keeping fans informed, said he,
would be a great start to gather support for these hard-working women.
After all, we can't supoort them if we don't know where they are. Since
he didn't advertise his list on this newsgroup, I'll do him a favor and
put a link to it if any of you guys want to join in:
WomensWrestling Mailing List
http://members.aol.com/EvWill/womenswrestling.html
I hate being the last one to know about these things, so whenever I can
take care of some personal business, I'm going to sign up. There's no
way I can possibly be kept out of something like this for too long.
Other suggestions that have come my way include the following:
have the promotions put up pictures on their website and their
newsletters (some of them do this already, but not all)
use such Internet technologies as RealAudio and RealVideo (in other
words, broadcast women's matches through the Internet; I don't know how
much it would cost to do that, though; it may not be in the budget for
some of these people)
Promote women's wrestling at other women's sporting events like WNBA,
ABL, Women's Pro Fastpitch, Ladies Pro Baseball, USISL women's soccer
league (I suggested this to the PGWA months ago; New Dimension Wrestling
does have some of their matches in conjunction with a North Carolina
minor league baseball team)
I have on tape some comments from Sam DeCero, promoter of Windy City Pro
Wrestling where he said that he put women's title matches as the main
event on some of his cards, after all, he said, title matches are
traditionally the main event fo the evening; a female title holder is on
the roster, so why shouldn't her matches be the main event every once in
a while? None of the other groups that promote male and female
wrestling do this to the best of my knowledge. I remember when Sherri
Martel's AWA title matches were the main event on TV. That's something
else to consider.
One person suggested that somewhere along the line, an all female
promotion would have to align itself with an all male promotion for
recognition, be it jointly promoted cards, or whatever. Of course, it's
the main male promotions that all but ruined women's wrestling in the
first place, so I'm not sure if any existing all female promotion wants
to go this route, although the PGWA did have some matches with the AIWF,
and recently had a title match in Low Country Wrestling.
If there's any other suggestions for jumpstarting women's pro wrestling,
let me know. I plan on passing this information along to the PGWA and
anyone else I can find.
Selena Kyte
Keith Watanabe
Selena Kyte wrote in message
<15047-35B...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Back when I was asking about the rumors of Reggie Bennett opening up an
all women's wrestling promotion, I was alerted to a message from NWA
President Howard Brody that at long last, he's going to revive their
Women's title.
The actual truth from what I understand is that Bennett will be opening
a gym in the US in about 3 years. However, the reality is whether or not
there are enough women in America (that is young women) who want to become
wrestlers. I imagine that if there are enough people interested, she'll be
sending them to ARSION where she is currently employed.
A couple of days later, I find out that the Ladies Pro Wrestling
Association is poised for a comeback with a series of pay-per-views.
Their website still lists Terri Power as the world champion, and Harley
Saito as the Japan champion. They list the tag team titles as vacant,
leading me to believe that Judy Martin retired and is training women at
her school. Will Leilani Kai, who is still wrestling, chose a new
partner to go after the titles?
What is LPWA's website url? Thanks
Now, I'm reading Everett Will's comments from the other wrestling
newsgroup that the WWF wants to bring back Madusa and a Japanese
wrestler to restart their women's division for the umpteenth time. I
guess if ratings are involved, throwing away the women's title can be
forgivable...
>From past experiences, it will be a given that the WWF is incompetent in
handling a real women's division. They've already made an embarassment out
of Taka Michinoku and their so-called Lightweight division, but their bigger
crime involves how they screwed up the AJW women who came to Survivor Series
in '95. Each were allowed to do about one signature move before getting
pinned to glorify Madusa. Sure, Aja Kong won that "match" but she puts
Shawn Michaels and the rest of the roster at that time to shame given the
opportunity. But that was the point: Aja nor anyone else in AJW were given
the opportunity to outclass the Americans. As for bringing in a Japanese
wrestler, they'd better lay off of AJW, JWP, ARSION, Neo-Ladies, GAEA, and
Megumi Kudo. AJW may have financial problems, but it's unforeseeable in
having them relinquish their biggest draw, Manami Toyota. Ditto for Hotta
and Takako Inoue. JWP's Hikari Fukuoka? No way, she is at her prime and is
honestly the star of JWP since Kansai has that disease and Mayumi went free
agent. Mayumi Ozaki? She's too smart to get involved in a promotion like
the WWF and make herself look bad. ARSION? Ditto Aja. I think she's
really focused on making sure her girls become draws so you can forget
having them come over, at least in terms of being used to highlight Madusa.
Neo-Ladies is viable, but I'd hate to see Yoshiko Tamura and Asari Chaparita
lowered even further by bad American booking. LCO is too important for
Neo-Ladies to relinquish and Kyoko believes she's a draw so you can forget
that promotion. GAEA? No, they have their deal with WCW, even if the
women's title is inactive here. Hokuto is out with pregnancy and Kudo
hopefully has enough sense never to trust American booking to prevent her
from coming out of retirement over here. That leaves Bull Nakano and LLPW.
No one in LLPW can fit the WWF's "requirements" (i.e. T&A) while Nakano
probably won't make a comeback after she lost weight. Either way, I'd hate
to see the WWF bring over any Japanese women's promotion and abuse them by
having them make no talents like Sable look good.
Other suggestions that have come my way include the following:
have the promotions put up pictures on their website and their
newsletters (some of them do this already, but not all)
You still need to get the fans to realize that these websites exist. For
all we know, the average (male) fan simply cares about seeing the next Sable
shrine.
use such Internet technologies as RealAudio and RealVideo (in other
words, broadcast women's matches through the Internet; I don't know how
much it would cost to do that, though; it may not be in the budget for
some of these people)
If WCW considers it too expensive to perform the RA broadcast live at this
moment and forces people to spend money on their PPL's, then it's doubtful
that any smaller feds could handle the budget.
I have on tape some comments from Sam DeCero, promoter of Windy City Pro
Wrestling where he said that he put women's title matches as the main
event on some of his cards, after all, he said, title matches are
traditionally the main event fo the evening; a female title holder is on
the roster, so why shouldn't her matches be the main event every once in
a while? None of the other groups that promote male and female
wrestling do this to the best of my knowledge. I remember when Sherri
Martel's AWA title matches were the main event on TV. That's something
else to consider.
FMW promoted Megumi Kudo's title matches as main events at one point (not as
if she wasn't better than the entire roster, but that's another point
entirely....)
If there's any other suggestions for jumpstarting women's pro wrestling,
let me know. I plan on passing this information along to the PGWA and
anyone else I can find.
First, figure out ways of not promoting women's wrestling or founding a new
women's wrestling organization. Yeah, that sounds strange but hear me out.
The WWF's product at this point is targeted towards a male audience quite
obviously by focusing on representing women as sexual objects. I don't know
about other women, but if I was a woman, I'd feel rather insecure knowing
that at some arena, there might be a crazy fan in the crowd who had plans of
abducting me. That to me doesn't bring more women to the table who desire
to become wrestlers. In fact, it seems rather discouraging to women who are
athletic but do not possess Sable's T&A (or the unnatural byproduct thereof)
to make it in the WWF. So I wouldn't rely on looking to the WWF as a role
model (for anything) in creating a women's division, when it appears that
they are only instituting another GLOW.
Second, the appeal to women's wrestling should have a target audience,
and I think that target audience should be other women. It worked for the
Crush Gals and AJW in establishing a large flux of women who wanted to
become AJW stars. Then AJW was able to pick from the best and had some of
the strongest rosters I've ever seen. Of course, women's wrestling in
America has the obstacle of both GLOW and the neo-GLOW federation of the WWF
to fight, since it must overcome stereotypes that women's wrestling is
nothing more than legalized pornography. It may sound harsh to generalize
like that, but ask many wrestling fans what they know or think about women's
wrestling. The first response that comes to mind is GLOW or Sable. It must
be established that women's wrestling is equally and perhaps more so
competitive and athletic than men's wrestling and that it isn't simply the
soap opera that operates the WWF and WCW's style of booking.
Third, whomever is obtained for women's wrestling should be young. From
my knowledge of the current stars actively wrestling in the US, most women
wrestlers are not, at least by AJW's standards, "young." I'd imagine that a
new set of faces would be appropriate so traditional fans of American
women's wrestling fans would have something to look forward to seeing.
Also, I rationalize this case because the next generation of women wrestlers
should be a tougher breed that can keep up with their Japanese counterparts.
I kid you not. The standard of women's wrestling is in Japan and, imho,
should be emulated because the fans would respect that type of style. But
that style is brutal in both mind and body because of the training rigors
and the high paced action involved. So you'd need people who are dedicated
to developing themselves as wrestlers rather than people who are only
committed to earning money (cf Duggan, etc.)
Fourth, these people cannot have egos (I would like to generalize this
statement to men's wrestling as well, but that's off topic). To have a
stable federation, the people involved have to set aside their personal
aspirations until that federation comes to fruition. Respect between the
wrestlers and the organization must be the primary key to the structure of
the federation. Without respect you'd have WCW or, in some cases, the WWF
where people are only interested in self-gain and end causing too much
political turmoil. ARSION, at this moment, might be the federation of the
future based on this model (and it's where I received this "idea" from).
Fifth, get rid of the trash. Too many fans are trash and care only
about the trashy aspects of women's wrestling (i.e. parts that validate it
as a medium for pornography). Censor these people. Yup, you heard me. Get
rid of these idiots. If you want a respectable reputation, you might as
well get rid of the stuff that gives you a negative image to begin with.
Forget for a moment that the US is a country with this so-called "free
speech" right and look at the negative ramifications bringing in trash has
created for the wrestling industry. Now, people don't respect much that
doesn't have some psychotic high spot, some foul language, or some T&A
reference.
Anyway, these are some minor suggestions to start. I'm all for
re-starting women's wrestling but not if it's going to degrade the
reputation of women's wrestling more than it already has been degraded.
Selena Kyte
EvW...@my-dejanews.com
>Selena Kyte wrote:
>
>> A couple of days later, I find out that the Ladies Pro Wrestling
>> Association is poised for a comeback with a series of pay-per-views.
>> Their website still lists Terri Power as the world champion, and Harley
>> Saito as the Japan champion. They list the tag team titles as vacant,
>> leading me to believe that Judy Martin retired and is training women at
>> her school. Will Leilani Kai, who is still wrestling, chose a new
>> partner to go after the titles?
>
> What is LPWA's website url? Thanks
http://www.ladiesprowrestling.com
The LPWA description really glossed over the fact that they've
been inactive since their last PPV. However, they do seem set
to return soon in a new form, that much seems certain.
I can't say more than that without breaking confidences.
>
> >From past experiences, it will be a given that the WWF is incompetent in
> handling a real women's division. They've already made an embarassment out
> of Taka Michinoku and their so-called Lightweight division, but their bigger
> crime involves how they screwed up the AJW women who came to Survivor Series
> in '95. Each were allowed to do about one signature move before getting
> pinned to glorify Madusa. Sure, Aja Kong won that "match" but she puts
> Shawn Michaels and the rest of the roster at that time to shame given the
> opportunity. But that was the point: Aja nor anyone else in AJW were given
> the opportunity to outclass the Americans.
It's really been a twin problem in the WWF and WCW, the
Japanese weren't allowed to outclass the Americans (especially
Madusa) and the women weren't allowed to outclass the men.
That's an impossible double-reinforced glass ceiling.
> As for bringing in a Japanese
> wrestler, they'd better lay off of AJW, JWP, ARSION, Neo-Ladies, GAEA, and
> Megumi Kudo.
I think I should point out for the sake of clarity that the report
of Japanese wrestler talking to the WWF was rumor and stated
as such. Nothing confirmed on that count yet.
I do think that we're going to see more Japanese women come
stateside for the same reason as Japanese men.. because their
economy stinks. I just hope that they'll show up somewhere other
than the WWF.
>
> First, figure out ways of not promoting women's wrestling or founding a new
> women's wrestling organization. Yeah, that sounds strange but hear me out.
> The WWF's product at this point is targeted towards a male audience quite
> obviously by focusing on representing women as sexual objects. I don't know
> about other women, but if I was a woman, I'd feel rather insecure knowing
> that at some arena, there might be a crazy fan in the crowd who had plans of
> abducting me. That to me doesn't bring more women to the table who desire
> to become wrestlers.
In all fairness, I don't know of any situations involving attempted
abductions of women from WWF events. That much having been
said, any atmosphere in which female fans are encouraged to show
off their naked breasts for attention could be considered anti-female.
Keep in mind that people in workplaces can get sued for sexual
harassment just for displaying pictures of such occurences.
> In fact, it seems rather discouraging to women who are
> athletic but do not possess Sable's T&A (or the unnatural byproduct thereof)
> to make it in the WWF. So I wouldn't rely on looking to the WWF as a role
> model (for anything) in creating a women's division, when it appears that
> they are only instituting another GLOW.
A GLOW without the comedy skits, perhaps. If Madusa is
indeed coming in (I'm posting the latest talk on my list) then that
could help but only if she's used primarily as a wrestler. Admittedly,
I don't believe that's likely. I suspect that Madusa, Sable, Jackie
et al will find themselves in a blurry wrestler/valet middle ground,
not completely one or the other.
Whatever happens, the WWF won't be America's paragon of
feminism.
> Second, the appeal to women's wrestling should have a target audience,
> and I think that target audience should be other women. It worked for the
> Crush Gals and AJW in establishing a large flux of women who wanted to
> become AJW stars. Then AJW was able to pick from the best and had some of
> the strongest rosters I've ever seen.
I agree with the target audience thought but I would add though
that I would add workrate fans of any sex who don't care whether
it's men or women who can put up 4-star matches. I would also
especially target people who don't watch and haven't been
contaminated by the current pro-wrestling product, with its attitudes
towards women. Any serious women's promotion in North America
should target fans of shows like "Buffy", "Xena" and for the teen
girl audience, "Dawson's Creek".
> Of course, women's wrestling in
> America has the obstacle of both GLOW and the neo-GLOW federation of the WWF
> to fight, since it must overcome stereotypes that women's wrestling is
> nothing more than legalized pornography. It may sound harsh to generalize
> like that, but ask many wrestling fans what they know or think about women's
> wrestling. The first response that comes to mind is GLOW or Sable. It must
> be established that women's wrestling is equally and perhaps more so
> competitive and athletic than men's wrestling and that it isn't simply the
> soap opera that operates the WWF and WCW's style of booking.
You know I once saw one of those on-line video games that
portrayed women's wrestling entirely in terms of strip-matches
between Sunny and Sable. No, there wasn't any actual nudity
but it really shows the mindset of some of the people out there
concerning what is and isn't women's wrestling. I think contrary
to LPWA portrayals that it was GLOW and its hideous aftermath
that killed the LPWA initially, not the other way around. That
promotion warped the image of women's wrestling in such a
bizarre fashion, that nothing of any value could be successful
afterward. Even now, people in places like the sister RSPW
group remember GLOW, not the LPWA. That has to change.
> Third, whomever is obtained for women's wrestling should be young. From
> my knowledge of the current stars actively wrestling in the US, most women
> wrestlers are not, at least by AJW's standards, "young." I'd imagine that a
> new set of faces would be appropriate so traditional fans of American
> women's wrestling fans would have something to look forward to seeing.
> Also, I rationalize this case because the next generation of women wrestlers
> should be a tougher breed that can keep up with their Japanese counterparts.
> I kid you not. The standard of women's wrestling is in Japan and, imho,
> should be emulated because the fans would respect that type of style. But
> that style is brutal in both mind and body because of the training rigors
> and the high paced action involved. So you'd need people who are dedicated
> to developing themselves as wrestlers rather than people who are only
> committed to earning money (cf Duggan, etc.)
Yes, but with a caveat. Yes, the athletic style of Japan should
be emulated and the women should be developed as athletes, but
I would put a huge amount of effort into developing personas that
treat women with respect and the women should absolutely,
positively develop interview skills. I'm not calling for GLOW-style
garbage, but realistically there should be more to ring development
than what happens from bell to bell.
As for ages, I'd keep the older names around but only if they're
willing to do their duty for younger stars.
> Fourth, these people cannot have egos (I would like to generalize this
> statement to men's wrestling as well, but that's off topic).
So I guess Nikki (me, me, me) McCray is out. Sorry, I digress.
>To have a
> stable federation, the people involved have to set aside their personal
> aspirations until that federation comes to fruition. Respect between the
> wrestlers and the organization must be the primary key to the structure of
> the federation. Without respect you'd have WCW or, in some cases, the WWF
> where people are only interested in self-gain and end causing too much
> political turmoil. ARSION, at this moment, might be the federation of the
> future based on this model (and it's where I received this "idea" from).
Quite frankly, I would allow wrestlers a healthy outlet for
creative input but bosses should still be bosses. This is one of
the few areas where the WWF is right.
> Fifth, get rid of the trash. Too many fans are trash and care only
> about the trashy aspects of women's wrestling (i.e. parts that validate it
> as a medium for pornography). Censor these people. Yup, you heard me. Get
> rid of these idiots. If you want a respectable reputation, you might as
> well get rid of the stuff that gives you a negative image to begin with.
> Forget for a moment that the US is a country with this so-called "free
> speech" right and look at the negative ramifications bringing in trash has
> created for the wrestling industry. Now, people don't respect much that
> doesn't have some psychotic high spot, some foul language, or some T&A
> reference.
>
There's no reason that a women's wrestling promotion should
have to promote such trash but the "free speech" right is a very
real one for those people. They can be zoned out but not actually
censored completely.
Everett W.-Free Kosovo 11:51
WomensWrestling Mailing List
http://members.aol.com/EvWill/womenswrestling.html
R.I.P. June Byers
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Selena Kyte
say on this subject.
Small disclaimer #1: I stopped watching WCW programming last year, and
I've stopped watching WWF programming a couple of years ago. Can't
stand neither company's product, but I have a general idea of what
they're doing because I'm online. I agree it's doubtful that serious
women's wrestling is going to be presented in the WWF. I know all of
those women chose to be there, but it would be too sad for me to see
Madusa, Jackie Moore (or whatever name she's using now), Joanie Lee (I
refuse to call her by her WWF name) being reduced to catfighting valets
who step into the ring every once in a while, especially to "put over"
someone who's apparently lost her religion. Whatever.
Small disclaimer #2: I'm not as familiar with the Japanese scene as I
would like to be, though I do read the few online reports. I'll leave
the discussion of the Japanese women to the experts, but it would be
even more sad for me to see them get treated poorly again. There are
indeed too many egos in wrestling thinking more about themselves than
the company and industry.
Anyway, there are a lot of things to consider regarding this subject,
and all I can say is if you're a fan of serious women's wrestling,
support the independents. They can provide what the big two can't, and
won't. I'll list a promotion website list separately.
I hope that there's someone out there who wants to take these
suggestions we're giving out here. All any of us can do is ask. Maybe
the key is to talk to someone who's considering adding women wrestlers
to his promotion, like Markus Gronemann, for instance. I got a letter
from him the other day saying that adding a women's division to his
Brawl Wrestling Federation is a long-term goal, after he fully
established his men's division. The thing is that Brawl is in Vienna,
Austria, so I'm not sure anyone will care too much about what they do,
but it's a start.
Anyway, guys, I'll work on it. And keep those suggestions coming.
Selena Kyte
have clue--will travel
(I think -- the attributions were a bit funky on this post, some may be
Selena Kyle's)
>From past experiences, it will be a given that the WWF is incompetent in
>handling a real women's division. They've already made an embarassment out
>of Taka Michinoku and their so-called Lightweight division, but their bigger
>crime involves how they screwed up the AJW women who came to Survivor Series
>in '95. Each were allowed to do about one signature move before getting
>pinned to glorify Madusa. Sure, Aja Kong won that "match" but she puts
>Shawn Michaels and the rest of the roster at that time to shame given the
>opportunity. But that was the point: Aja nor anyone else in AJW were given
>the opportunity to outclass the Americans.
Which is the exact same reason why the Lightweight division is so screwed up.
Gimmick-ridden, screwjob-infested ego trips are what put asses in the seats
right now, at least as far as the casual fan is concerned. Why shouldn't
it be what works? It's about all that the fans have been fed for fifteen
years. We have ECW in Philly, but that's becoming less and less actual
wrestling with every passing week. They just don't have the horses anymore.
(rant mode off, long ramble to follow about The Way Things Ought To Be)
So let's learn from what ECW used to do, shall we? Trying to wedge
women's wrestling into the WWF or WCW at this point is going to fail
again, because you know how they'll handle it; maybe one match every
other show. One major face, one major heel and an assortment of jobbers.
Sooner or later they'll trot Medusa out again. Maybe they can even
run Moolah out there as part of an angle. Wouldn't that be neat?
Naw, what ECW _tried_ to do was deliver something different.
Thus, this has got to be a separate fed, like the major women's feds in Japan.
Given that this field would be essentially starting from scratch (or
less than scratch, if you count the negative image things like GLOW
and the career of Medusa have prospered) in the U.S., you'd do best
to put together one federation and make it work, period. Don't be
like women's basketball right now, where there are two competing feds
and the stars are split between them; you'll have enough problems
drawing enough fans to support one group, let alone multiples. This means
some bucks being involved to get it off the ground and promoters that
aren't afraid to risk a lot of cash -- and potentially spend it, if a few
quality wrestlers from overseas can be lured over -- but you can't do
this half-assed.
Now, I'm far from an expert in Japanese women's wrestling, but I have seen
enough to notice some basic trends:
1) Raw powerhouses ("diesel dykes," as a friend put it) that can powerbomb
a moose through the mat. Bull Nakano/Aja Kong types. Not huge like
Mabel, clearly there's been some time in the gym as well, but big.
2) Leaner, meaner women who can still do the power moves, but would prefer
to kick each other's teeth out first. The Dynamite Kansai bodytype.
3) Smaller, agile women who can fly high, dropkick a lot and fill out
leotards and frilly outfits nicely. This is not to say that you turn
your lightweight division into an Inside Sports swimsuit edition; far from
it, this group stresses athleticism and acrobatics, which just happens
require thin, shapely bodies to pull it off convincingly. Think ASARI,
Manami, Toshie Uematsu -- we're not talking powder-puffs here.
4) Medium-sized, in-shape women who can work well with any of the
above styles. I'm thinking the Hokutos, the KAORUs, etc. here,
as well as the HOT MINKY HELLCATS OF DEATH~! like Ozaki or Mita/Shimoda.
Now, what do the above women have in common?
1) They're IN SHAPE. By this I don't mean that they're poured into their
costumes, I mean that they can move and work and run around without
blowing up five minutes into a match. I mean that Mabel-sized women
need not apply. They have some muscle tone, they have some stamina
and they're not afraid to use both.
2) They do the same moves the men do, and JUST AS HARD as the men do --
often harder. Often wilder and more painful-looking moves than the men's!
That's the KEY right there. When I showed the Kansai/Ozaki vs Manami/Yamada
match from Dreamslam II to my girlfriend and her family, I warned them
ahead of time: "Forget everything you know about women's wrestling."
Thirty minutes later, the jaws were on the floor and some marking out
was definitely detected. Now, they can't all be ***** matches like that
one, but the principles are there; be athletic, hit moves that make
the audience gasp, and follow the same styles and tempos as a good men's
match has. Build to a finish with forty-three two-and-a-half-counts
before you finally have a clean pin or submission.
Work with the styles of the women you sign on. Go easy on things that
your stable aren't really built for; there's nothing weaker than watching
a limp forearm try to pass as a full-fledged clothesline. (Whoops, that
was from the Mr. Pogo match I was watching earlier. Never mind.) Or a
tentative chairshot that looks like the chair's being carefully laid
on the head. The guys haven't mastered that yet, either; I remember an
ECW match between Public Enemy and the Del Ray/Pritchard Heavenly Bodies
that was weak as hell, because the Bodies and Grunge couldn't deliver or
sell a foreign object shot without a roadmap. So don't go that way.
Don't follow the old tiny-face-battles-massive-monster-heel storyline,
or get all goofy and stereotypical the way GLOW did. Tell a good story,
but let the wrestling be the focus.
Who's the biggest female name in US wrestling right now? Beulah
McGillicutty in ECW, by far. Partially because she looks like a
centerfold (which she has been), but also largely because she's not afraid
to pull off actual moves. She can moonsault, she can DDT, she can rana
better than some male wrestlers I've seen. If the crowds eat that up,
imagine what they might do with a whole fed at her level and above.
Leave the 500-lb monster heels at home. Leave the swimsuit models who
preen and pose and show off their implants but can't work a match at home,
or (more precisely) in the Big Two. ;) Go athletic, and go all out;
not to say that there should be Plum Mariko-esque tragedies in the US,
but don't overpull punches and hold back on moves because "they're women."
That's the surest way to get the audience to patronize you as well.
De-emphasize bulk, de-emphasize cuteness, and deliver a package containing
smart, agile, athletic women who can move, who can make the ego-boys
in the Big Two look sad, who have the opportunity to show what they can
do (instead of being wedged into a once-a-month opening-hour match
on Raw or Nitro) and might happen to look good, too. But take the hard
worker over the pretty face, and you're bound to find some pretty faces
who can work, too.
Would an American version of Mita/Shimoda go over well here? You bet your
ass -- if presented properly, and if given quality opponents to work with.
That's the real catch -- finding enough women who can work this high-energy
style credibly -- but nobody said it'd be easy.
jeff. another layman makes an ass of himself...
Keith Watanabe
have clue--will travel wrote in message
<1998072803...@unix2.netaxs.com>...
>"Keith Watanabe" <con...@concentric.net> wrote:
>So let's learn from what ECW used to do, shall we? Trying to wedge
>women's wrestling into the WWF or WCW at this point is going to fail
>again, because you know how they'll handle it; maybe one match every
>other show. One major face, one major heel and an assortment of jobbers.
>Sooner or later they'll trot Medusa out again. Maybe they can even
>run Moolah out there as part of an angle. Wouldn't that be neat?
>Naw, what ECW _tried_ to do was deliver something different.
The problem with using someone like a Madusa or Moolah is that it
reflects the lack of confidence either federation has for "creating" new
stars. I don't think neither woman is necessary to provide a wrestling
match that the fans can care about. I think people should just give new
people with a lot of determination and ability a chance.
In ECW's case, I agree. They provided something "different" for America
so it became popular. Same if women's wrestling were to come over here. A
lot of people here would argue that Japanese women's wrestling is nothing
more than a spotfest for the most part. Even though there is some validity
to that statement, I argue that it's so radically different from the crap
the US feds put on every week that people would enjoy it eventually. It
takes time to matriculate such things as well as a lot of patience.
>Thus, this has got to be a separate fed, like the major women's feds in
Japan.
Unfortunately, what that means is the fed will be in direct competition
with the major US feds. Since TV plays such a huge role in promoting
wrestling these days, I find it difficult to conceive that such a promotion
would succeed on its own here, unless a major corporate sponsor with media
access backed it up.
>
>Given that this field would be essentially starting from scratch (or
>less than scratch, if you count the negative image things like GLOW
>and the career of Medusa have prospered) in the U.S., you'd do best
>to put together one federation and make it work, period. Don't be
>like women's basketball right now, where there are two competing feds
>and the stars are split between them; you'll have enough problems
>drawing enough fans to support one group, let alone multiples. This means
>some bucks being involved to get it off the ground and promoters that
>aren't afraid to risk a lot of cash -- and potentially spend it, if a few
>quality wrestlers from overseas can be lured over -- but you can't do
>this half-assed.
They'd have to end up losing profit in the beginning because no one
would know of their reputation. It'd be better if they started up small and
worked their way up so they won't lose too much profit at once. As for
importing stars, there's no question about it. The biggest problem about
importing people is the high cost of travel and processing fees. Not to
mention that money is probably better at this point over there than here,
despite the economic problems that Japan and the Japanese women's
federations are facing.
>Now, I'm far from an expert in Japanese women's wrestling, but I have seen
>enough to notice some basic trends:
>
>1) Raw powerhouses ("diesel dykes," as a friend put it) that can powerbomb
> a moose through the mat. Bull Nakano/Aja Kong types. Not huge like
> Mabel, clearly there's been some time in the gym as well, but big.
Aja and Bull are excellent heels, but they also have ring psychology
that allows them to create stimulating matches. Yes, they are power types
but it's out of anyone's league to compare them to Mabel, 'cuz Mabel simply
is a fat ass.
>>2) Leaner, meaner women who can still do the power moves, but would
prefer
> to kick each other's teeth out first. The Dynamite Kansai bodytype.
Kansai falls in the power type as well. Don't forget that Aja (I
believe at least) knows Kempo, which makes her very diverse. But I get your
point. In both cases, it'd be better if the new types would receive
training from the likes of Aja and Kansai. I'd say that if they'd rely on
the American style of wrestling that the promotion would be bound to fail.
>
>3) Smaller, agile women who can fly high, dropkick a lot and fill out
> leotards and frilly outfits nicely. This is not to say that you turn
> your lightweight division into an Inside Sports swimsuit edition; far
from
> it, this group stresses athleticism and acrobatics, which just happens
> require thin, shapely bodies to pull it off convincingly. Think ASARI,
> Manami, Toshie Uematsu -- we're not talking powder-puffs here.
Just to point out, Manami is far from small. She's actually about the
right size as a wrestler. But I think that if you create a so-called
lightweight or cruiserweight division that the concept would get screwed up.
I mean, Mayumi Ozaki, who is 5'1", would be considered a lightweight, but
her 12 years of experience make it a given that she'd beat heavyweights like
Tomoko Watanabe and Nakahara all the time.
Second, this type of category really doesn't apply to women's wrestling
as much as it applies to men's wrestling in the states. For instance, Aja
can pull off a dropkick and does some high impact, aerial type of manuevers
while Kyoko Inoue, being a large woman, can, at least when she wants to,
pull off some high speed aerial offense as well. But the leaner Takako
Inoue typically is a ground attack wrestler, doing only a few high flying
moves, including a nadare no shiki otoshi and her destiny hammer. I can
see where you're leading, but I don't think the idea works as well.
>
>4) Medium-sized, in-shape women who can work well with any of the
> above styles. I'm thinking the Hokutos, the KAORUs, etc. here,
> as well as the HOT MINKY HELLCATS OF DEATH~! like Ozaki or Mita/Shimoda.
Medium sized women would qualify Manami and Ozaki would be considered
small. Most women can work between styles. Aja Kong, despite being
misunderstood in the US, can move between styles. She can work a
shoot-submission style, power moves, and even perform well with the smaller
women. Hokuto does this well too. Kaoru can move between styles, but she
can't carry a match. The people that I've seen that can carry matches very
well are Chigusa Nagayo, Jaguar Yokota, Aja Kong, Hokuto, Ozaki, and even
Yamada in her prime. The rest are very good like Manami, but lack
psychology to build interesting matches. I'm not saying that Manami's, etc.
matches aren't interesting (I'm a huge Manami mark) but you got to look at
things for what they are.
Here's my belief: get rid of categories, they're far too limiting and
don't make much of a statement for women's wrestling in the first place.
Most women wrestlers that I've seen range in height between 5'-5' 7" so
basing styles strictly on sizes can't apply. Second, saying which wrestlers
should do what styles limits the wrestlers themselves. Yumiko Hotta, I
think, really exemplifies this statement since she rarely compromises her
style and sticks to a strict shoot-submission style, with a few power moves
like her Pyramid Driver and Tiger Driver. What then happens is that Hotta
can only work great matches with certain opponents. The best people I've
seen her work against have been those who have a similar style like Kansai,
Kong, and Yamada. However, she seems completely out of place with someone
like Asari.
That isn't to say you can't have wrestlers not focus on one category,
but the idea is limiting. I'd prefer to see a variety of good matches than
people who can work in certain categories. That's why I'd focus on ring
psychology more than anything since the subtle elements make the matches
better than a simple spotfest. Look at the two series of Yamada vs. Manami
and Kyoko vs. Manami. In the case of Yamada vs. Manami, both had built very
good psychology into their matches which allowed them to vary their spots.
Kyoko vs. Manami from the two matches that I've seen would get 5 stars out
of sheer workrate alone. The endings were good, but the early and middle
parts of the matches were approximately the same in development.
>
>Now, what do the above women have in common?
>
>1) They're IN SHAPE. By this I don't mean that they're poured into their
> costumes, I mean that they can move and work and run around without
> blowing up five minutes into a match. I mean that Mabel-sized women
> need not apply. They have some muscle tone, they have some stamina
> and they're not afraid to use both.
You really shouldn't compare Japanese women wrestlers with Mabel. Mabel
honestly is just a fat ass. But Kong, etc. can go 30+ minutes. Just
because they're large doesn't mean that they can't do things that the
smaller women can do nor that they lack stamina, etc. I've seen Bull pull
off a Harlem Hangover (okay, I'm going to get chastised for using that term
rather than "Rolling Guillotine Legdrop", but it's one that people are more
familiar with) as well as a moonsault. And the opposite is true where
smaller women can pull off power moves on the larger women. You'd never
know that 5' 124 lbs Yumi Fukawa can pick up a 5'9" 167 lbs guy just on the
basis of looking at her. My thing is that you shouldn't base a wrestler on
their size alone.
>2) They do the same moves the men do, and JUST AS HARD as the men do --
> often harder. Often wilder and more painful-looking moves than the
men's!
Not to mention that they often are the ones who innovate them. I've let
to see Yamada's bridging Reverse Gori Special Bomb and Manami's Japanese
Ocean Cyclone suplex used here. And frankly, I doubt that many people here
can do those moves and take them.
>
>That's the KEY right there. When I showed the Kansai/Ozaki vs
Manami/Yamada
>match from Dreamslam II to my girlfriend and her family, I warned them
>ahead of time: "Forget everything you know about women's wrestling."
>Thirty minutes later, the jaws were on the floor and some marking out
>was definitely detected. Now, they can't all be ***** matches like that
>one, but the principles are there; be athletic, hit moves that make
>the audience gasp, and follow the same styles and tempos as a good men's
>match has. Build to a finish with forty-three two-and-a-half-counts
>before you finally have a clean pin or submission.
Why should women's wrestling follow the men's wrestling? That wouldn't
make any statements about women's wrestling as its own entity and most
people would attribute their style to being a blatant rip off of the men's
wrestling. They should find their own niche so that people would come to
see them for their own merit, otherwise you can just go to the big arena
with Malenko vs. Jericho.
>
>Work with the styles of the women you sign on. Go easy on things that
>your stable aren't really built for; there's nothing weaker than watching
>a limp forearm try to pass as a full-fledged clothesline. (Whoops, that
>was from the Mr. Pogo match I was watching earlier. Never mind.) Or a
>tentative chairshot that looks like the chair's being carefully laid
>on the head. The guys haven't mastered that yet, either; I remember an
>ECW match between Public Enemy and the Del Ray/Pritchard Heavenly Bodies
>that was weak as hell, because the Bodies and Grunge couldn't deliver or
>sell a foreign object shot without a roadmap. So don't go that way.
>Don't follow the old tiny-face-battles-massive-monster-heel storyline,
>or get all goofy and stereotypical the way GLOW did. Tell a good story,
>but let the wrestling be the focus.
I don't see why the tiny face-monster heel storyline is that bad. Ever
see Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota at the Tokyo Dome? Again, my thing would be
for the federation to develop their own sense of identity. ECW did it
(although I'm not a big fan of that type of identity). The big thing would
be to not follow American style booking simply because you can get that for
free on TV.
>
>Who's the biggest female name in US wrestling right now? Beulah
>McGillicutty in ECW, by far. Partially because she looks like a
>centerfold (which she has been), but also largely because she's not afraid
>to pull off actual moves. She can moonsault, she can DDT, she can rana
>better than some male wrestlers I've seen. If the crowds eat that up,
>imagine what they might do with a whole fed at her level and above.
Three moves doesn't say much. It's like saying Sable had a GREAT
wrestlemania 14 match because she did a powerbomb and TKO. Big deal. A TKO
is a fancy move that is nothing more than a fireman's carry into a reverse
neckbreaker drop. Other than that, Sable has no substance (I mean that both
literally and figuratively). I think there's a lot of people who are so
depleted of good wrestling that when they see a huge move, they end up
marking out and calling it a 5 star match afterwards for that one move.
They never look for the smaller points that make matches great like the
stuff in between. In Sable's case, she has no mat skills and can't carry
her husband's jockstrap. That's the basic truth. Or you may look at a
Saturn who boast some impressive moves, but for some reason they don't have
great impact because he flings them together without a good reason. It's
the difference between Kanyon vs. Saturn and Malenko vs. Guerrero.
The point is that women can have the fancy moves but they need to have
everything in between as well. Just having three good looking moves means
just that: you'll see them perform those moves week in and week out. They
might as well have squash matches to advertise those moves while they're at
it. Even the AJW women, despite being called "spotmachines," still have
enough matwork to vary their matches from the beginning point to the middle.
>
>Leave the 500-lb monster heels at home. Leave the swimsuit models who
>preen and pose and show off their implants but can't work a match at home,
>or (more precisely) in the Big Two. ;) Go athletic, and go all out;
>not to say that there should be Plum Mariko-esque tragedies in the US,
>but don't overpull punches and hold back on moves because "they're women."
>That's the surest way to get the audience to patronize you as well.
Again, I don't see a problem with bulk as long as the wrestlers can
deliver. I agree about the implant types. Yet I think at some point you
wanted to have the Manami types around, but where are the others who are
decent wrestlers like Mariko Yoshida or Momoe Nakanishi? There might be a
tendency to emphasize good looking women wrestlers (and honestly, I would),
but there are quite a few talented ones that people don't remember because
they aren't spot machines, good looking, or fancy.
As for avoiding the Mariko tragedy, I don't think there's an easy way
around it. Even if they don't go stiff, the wrestlers are always subjected
to injury, but it's a matter of insuring that they can prevent it from
occurring out of their control. For instance, AJW has the rookies on the
outside of the matches to prevent unnecessary injuries during high risk type
of moves. Simple but subtle things like that will prevent another tragedy
from occurring.
>De-emphasize bulk, de-emphasize cuteness, and deliver a package containing
>smart, agile, athletic women who can move, who can make the ego-boys
>in the Big Two look sad, who have the opportunity to show what they can
>do (instead of being wedged into a once-a-month opening-hour match
>on Raw or Nitro) and might happen to look good, too. But take the hard
>worker over the pretty face, and you're bound to find some pretty faces
>who can work, too.
Okay. I should've read further. But I don't think cuteness can be bad
either. It depends on who your target audience is. Cuteness probably won't
work for the male audience, but it may create teen idol types. In Japan,
Yumi and Michiko are teen idols. Also, have you ever seen Hikari Fukuoka?
She's a cute type. She does the Popeye punch that looks funny but she can
deliver it well.
Overall, I think what the US women wrestlers would need is some people
who can teach them properly. Real mentor types would help the women out.
Look at the history of monster heels between Dump Matsumoto-Bull Nakano-Aja
Kong. Or even Hokuto-Mima Shimoda. Or even Ozaki's Oz Academy. The
essential thing would be for an experienced wrestler to teach the younger
girls how to perform in terms of in ring action and story development. From
there, when the youngsters begin to feel comfortable, they'd be able to go
on their own to develop their own character.
KymBot
<23435-35...@newsd-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>And keep those suggestions coming
Any idea where Palli Azzarr the terrorist from David Mclane's
old POWW show is? She was also Palestina on GLOW. From what
I saw of her on POWW she would be a great WWF manager (no
need to wrestle). She was very articulate, funny, bright, and
never showed skin like most ladies do. I watch the WWF for
its comedic aspects and I'd say she would fit right in.
I thought she was a genius. Just wondering if anyone knows
anything about her nowadays.
Selena Kyte
Terrorist/Palestina is that she was embarking on a singing career of
some sort. That was about five years ago, however.
One women's promotion, huh? Actually, I'm for as many promotions as it
takes to accomodate all the women who want to enter pro wrestling, but
if given a choice, I would rather have one, centrally, organized
promotion rather than several smaller, misorgazined, constantly cash
strapped promotions.
But let's explore this: if you think one company should handle women's
wrestling, which one would be the best qualified to take up the job?
The LPWA apparently wants to keep their plans under wraps so far as
their comeback is concerned.
Bay State Women's Wrestling out of Massachusetts claims to be organizing
a live show around the Boston area, but they've been saying that for
about a year now. They seem content on selling custom made videotapes.
The Fabulous Moolah came on The Stranglehold, a St. Louis based radio
wrestling tak show, and stated that she plans on getting serious women's
wrestling back on TV through her LIWA group. They've been having yearly
conventions in Las Vegas and selling videos with intentions on setting
up a retirement home for wrestlers, as well as establishing a fund to
help the old-time wrestlers meet their needs. While these are admirable
goals, with all due respect, I have not heard if they've progressed
toward reaching either goal, so I don't see how Moolah can concentrate
additional efforts toward TV matches.
The National Wrestling Alliance finally decided to do something about
the NWA Women's title after a long period of time of it being vacated
(although Debbie Combs doesn't think so). We're still waiting for news
on that, although the Extreme Canadian Championship Wrestling promotion
(NWA Pacific Northwest, I think) stated that women wrestlers will be
included on that roster soon to join The Iron Maiden.
Which leaves the PGWA. I've been told time and time again over the past
few years that while they're making enough money to keep the company
afloat, they need sponsors and donors on a large scale to move beyond
videotaped matches and $100 ticket live shows from their gym. They've
talked about a nationwide tour, establishing a lightweight division, and
yes, getting on TV on a weekly basis. They do maintain contact with a
lot of independent wrestlers who might be known on a regional basis, but
not a nationwide basis. The majority of them have wrestled about 5
years or less. Quite a few people said that there needs to be a serious
youth movement in women's wrestling. That's at least one thing the PGWA
can provide. To me, though, constantly asking for money has a kind of
PBS-type effect; you get stick and tried of hearing about it after a
while. Their need for sponsors and donors is a legitimate one, but how
do you go about asking money without turning people off? That's the
main question the PGWA needs to find an answer to...and soon.
So which one of these promotions should be the one promoting female only
wrestling cards? Or should they merge into one company? Maybe a new
one ought to be created utilizing all of these ideas we've been tossing
around?
What do you guys think?
Selena Kyte
pa...@nuri.net
> One women's promotion, huh? Actually, I'm for as many promotions as it
> takes to accomodate all the women who want to enter pro wrestling, but
> if given a choice, I would rather have one, centrally, organized
> promotion rather than several smaller, misorgazined, constantly cash
> strapped promotions.
I like this idea, but not sure who can do it effectively. Course,
to be successful with a women's fed (I think this was said in
passing in an earlier post in this thread) you have to get away
from the T&A aspect of women's wrestling, and educate the fans
that women's wrestling can and is just as athletic and spectacular
as what the men are capable of (How's that for a run-on sentence?).
My thought:
Who better to do the educating than the Japanese women (or evenn
the Mexican, although Lucha style is a bit different to what the
casual fan is used to)? Does anyone know what it would cost to
just *show* some Japanese wrestling here in US/Canada and supply
the matches with English commentary? To me, that would be the easiest
way to do some educating while you gather some homegrown talent
that can move in once enough interest has been shown by fans in the
product. And since we'd know the faces of the Japanese, guest
stints in the American fed would be guaranteed moneymakers.
Any other thoughts?
Keith Watanabe
pa...@nuri.net wrote in message <6qcm2h$3o3$1...@news.nuri.net>...
>That fool Selena Kyte <Selen...@webtv.net> had the temerity to say:
>I like this idea, but not sure who can do it effectively. Course,
>to be successful with a women's fed (I think this was said in
>passing in an earlier post in this thread) you have to get away
>from the T&A aspect of women's wrestling, and educate the fans
>that women's wrestling can and is just as athletic and spectacular
>as what the men are capable of (How's that for a run-on sentence?).
Definitely. But now isn't the time because the ratings for both
companies are up due to the emphasis in "style."
>
>My thought:
>Who better to do the educating than the Japanese women (or evenn
>the Mexican, although Lucha style is a bit different to what the
>casual fan is used to)?
Go for Japan. There's no money in Mexico. Besides, I don't think many
people would take the lucha style that seriously here for women. If
Juventud is having a hard time getting over, then it will be impossible for
any unknown female luchadores to receive any pops here.
Does anyone know what it would cost to
>just *show* some Japanese wrestling here in US/Canada and supply
>the matches with English commentary?
Let's think of some basic costs:
Flights:
Can range anywhere between $500 (cheap, seasonal fare) to $1000+.
Multiply that by the number of women you want to import and for the dates
you want to secure them here. Remember: they have obligations in their
country too. This is why the US promotions don't import from Japan as they
do with the Mexicans.
Working Visas:
I'm not sure what the exact procedure is, but there's a lot of red tape
that they'd have to go through just to secure these. Not to mention most
visas probably won't last for more than a year at best and 3-6 months on
average.
Arenas:
Renting out places without having a following here is guarenteed to give
a new promotion tremendous loss, especially if the girls are unknown. Who's
going to promote these people?
Promotion:
It costs money for advertisements and the people who advertise. You're
not even guaranteed to sell out any arenas.
Hotel, food, and basic transportation:
These things aren't cheap. Food might be less expensive if the girls
choose to eat at Taco Bell, but Hotel can go up to $100+/night. Also,
they'd end up renting a tour bus, knowing the Japanese women's feds, rather
than securing individual cars. Of course, the latter is better and more
efficient, but it would still cost money.
Training facilities:
Between matches, you have to train someplace.
Production value:
No one can compete with WCW nor the WWF for flash, but you still want to
make your girls look good.
TV/network:
Probably impossible to secure here without having a loyal following. It
would be the greatest benefit, but the loss that a network would receive
might prevent them from promoting an unknown fed.
Announcers:
They have their own announcers in Japan, but they'd want someone capable
of pulling through. Too many people here laugh at the likes of Mike Tenay,
but he still knows more wrestling than the rest here and is able to pull a
half decent broadcast. A lot of people here believe they can become
commentators based on what they've seen in the US, but I doubt that they
could do a professional job at it as well. As I've said before, anyone can
call a match based on what they see, but they'd also have to know the moves,
understand the motivations behind each wrestler, and most importantly tell a
comprehensible story to the public. Having someone fully understand the
nuances of the Japanese and Mexican style while being accredited as a
broadcaster is probably impossible to find. Heck, I'd do ARSION's English
commentary for free if they'd ask me, but I doubt that I could do a
play-by-play while constructing a story.
Wrestlers:
This is the biggest factor. Money is a factor so if a promotion isn't
going to earn anything in a country, then they'd better have an initial
amount of capital to make up for the losses that would acrue so they could
continue paying their wrestlers.
Forget going internationally as well. They'd have to go through customs
and other stipulations in working internationally. If you're going to
promote your federation outside your home country, then secure only one
other part of the world before moving on.
To me, that would be the easiest
>way to do some educating while you gather some homegrown talent
>that can move in once enough interest has been shown by fans in the
>product. And since we'd know the faces of the Japanese, guest
>stints in the American fed would be guaranteed moneymakers.
Who are the "we?" I doubt that more than a few dozen people in America
can even remember Aja Kong's stint in the WWF or Hokuto's stint in WCW.
Also, educating the public is impossible because of the crap factors that go
on in wrestling here like ECW, WCW's main events, and the WWF. Now, people
are demanding ridiculous, suicidal, career-risking spots that make no sense.
It's bad enough that the women in Japan are having a difficult time with the
economics and the low turnout for their stuff, so why try to bring over
people who will have "boring!" chants thrown at them? There's a few
federations that could easily go over here based on the talent, but the
women who are really good in those federations are at the end of their
careers. Also, the federations most likely won't be leaving their country
because of the economics loss that would incur trying to survive here. The
most likely federation from Japan that people will see here in the near
future (say 3 years) is ARSION, but again, that's because they need to groom
their girls over there and secure themselves as a stable company with a
finalized style.
The whole problem is that it's easy to say, "X should come here so the
American public can be educated!" But the execution of the matter is more
difficult than it seems. With the prejudice, moronic crap that the WWF puts
out ("I choppy your pee-pee!") and the egomaniacs that control the WCW, the
women's federations would have a lot of barriers to overcome. It's bad
enough that they are unknown over here, but the people in American are not
the types that are willing to give chances to others. They don't respect
effort and heart and only give a damn about results. Why do you think that
Rocco Rock in ECW received, "You fucked up!" chants when he missed his
moonsault? The other problem is that hardly anyone in America knows what
"good" wrestling is. They are so deprived of decent matches that they start
thinking that Mankind vs. Undertaker is a 5* match or that RVD is god. I'm
dead certain that some people on this newsgroup who claim to be "smarts"
about wrestling wouldn't appreciate a Fukawa-Okutsu match because they watch
Maivia vs. HHH and think it's worth 5*.
I could cite a thousand other (okay, I'm exaggerating) factors that
negatively would prevent women's wrestling from Japan or in general from
being accepted here. That doesn't mean that I don't think it can work. But
it would take the right formula and the right timing. I know that the AJW
stuff would work but again when you talk like this, you have to be pragmatic
about the specific devices that would make it work over here. On a
practical level, there's just no way for them to be able to get over without
sufficient financial backing.
However, here's what my proposition is: start buying those Japanese
women's wrestling tapes. Buy them directly from the companies so that they
can make a profit rather than continue to take losses. Every cent counts
for them. Second, take those tapes and watch them with family and friends.
Learn the history of each of these companies on your own and do the proper
research so you can teach your friends. Tell them that it's real because as
far as I've been informed, it is. Have your friends show their friends,
etc. to create a network of people interested in getting women's wrestling
in America back up. I hear a lot of people talking on this NG about
wrestlers from Japan, but it sounds like not that many people are really
familiar with the organizations and how each of them work. That means that
3-5 people are actually knowledgable about those things. To really get an
appreciation of how women's wrestling works, you're going to have to educate
yourselves by watching these things and doing the proper research. Get the
tapes and figure out who are the players and what they mean now and then.
Just saying Manami Toyota is the Goddess (which she is, imho) based on the
others from this ng or from seeing one match doesn't do justice to herself
nor the others.
I think that if people want to make the women's stuff work in using
foreign, especially Japanese, help, then they have to make the effort in
educating themselves more thoroughly. Heck, I've been priviledged to have
met some of the girls and learn what really goes on behind the scenes and I
can't even begin to understand every aspect of the sport. But that doesn't
prevent me from going out and renting more videos to educate myself or
reading the good websites for the currents.
Selena Kyte
against all hope that a way would be found for us to enjoy this aspect
of wrestling, while having the reality of male adult entertainment
constantly shoved down our throats.
You guys continue to follow the big two, or three, counting ECW. I
don't. I cannot stand what they call "entertainment", and frankly, I'm
disgusted with what the WWF's been doing the past couple of years. Then
again, I don't exactly fall into the targeted audience, do I? So...
..when I was altered to the fact that Luna Vachon and Jackie Moore were
on tonight's Raw show, I didn't expect much, especially with stripper
Sable at ringside. I had not seen WWF programming in over a year, so I
hadn't seen either woman since they've starting working there.
Well I'll be darned; they were allowed to wrestle. Not for long, but
just enough for people like me to remember that they can actually
wrestle. At least it was toward the beginning of the show, so I
wouldn't have to stomach the rest of it.
There's not much to conclude from this; we'll have to see where the WWF
goes from here. Actually, you guys will. I'm waiting to hear from the
PGWA, LPWA, NWA, and whoever else wants to step up to the plate and
deliver some quality matches, or something relatively close.
But yes, it's going to take a tremendous grassroots effort to get the
guys in the so-called target audience to see women as athletes and
people, not just sex objects. Maybe us fans have to lead the way.
Getting fans to watch videotapes from Japan, the U.S. and elsewhere is
a good start, as is the current mailing list for locating and finding
other women's wrestling fans. I suspect, though, it's going to take a
long while to get the fans who are condition to today's style and
atompsohere of wrestling to fully appreciate serious women's wrestling.
If we want to see women's wrestling survive though, we gotta start
somewhere, right?
Selena Kyte
psch...@american.edu
I think there is an inherent flaw in your argument. You seem to want Women's
wrestling for the sake of women's wrestling, not because it will be anything
good. I love Japaneese Women's wrestling, but American womens wrestling sucks
for the most part, who is the best native worker? Malia Hosaka? Luna Vachon?
Neither would even be mediocre in Japan. Why do you want so bad to start a
women's promotion if it just means more bad wrestling.
Phil
Selena Kyte
American leagues right from the get go. It takes time for anyone, be
they Japanese, American, or whoever, to build themselves up to the
highest levels.
Yes, the overall quality of American women's wrestling isn't up to par,
but the way you're talking, you would rather scrap our efforts and just
import the Japanese women here, the costs of which would be staggering,
as was already pointed out. Just showing their matches here on a weekly
basis somehow would probably mean going through a lot of red tape.
My argument is if there are enough people here in America who care, from
fans all they way up to the executives and those in charge at the
various promotions, then women's wrestling has a chance to succeed.
There needs to be better training, no question about that, but there
also needs to be more opportunities for women to showcase themselves.
I'm talking here about environments where women are valued for skills,
not just looks.
You can only do so much through the training school environment, looking
at tapes, developing personalities, and so forth, but the only way the
quality of women's wrestling is going to improve is through wrestling.
Who has an excellent, first rate match the first time out? Or maybe
perhaps the first year? It takes time; it takes opportunities. I don't
want "bad" wrestling any more than anybody else, but it's going to take
a lot of patience on our part, and better training from the schools that
are out there, to wait for the "good" wrestling to emerge.
Of course, you welcome to enjoy the Japanese women, if that's your main
preference. I enjoy and support women's wrestling, wherever it may be.
Maybe I have a higher patience level; I don't know.
And with that, I'm going to end my part of this thread. All future
discussions on women's wrestling done by me will be on the mailing list.
You guys are welcome to join me, whether you are supporters or critics
of women's participation in pro wrestling.
Quick question before I go, would you guys happen to know the
whereabouts of Denise Storm? She had a couple of matches with Debbie
Combs' promotion, but was better known for her matches in the LPWA.
The next time I post here, I may actually talk about men's wrestling,
for a change.
Selena Kyte
Jeff Benson
wrestling truely should be is with an Extremeley Strange Wrestling tape.
Wlfpc4lyf
8 "MAN" TAG MATCH NOT LONG AGO. SHE'S A GREAT WRESTLER! IF THE WOMEN'S
DIVISION IS EVER BACK UP TO FULL STRENGTH LIKE IT USED TO BE, I HOPE CHYNA IS
THE FIRST WOMEN'S CHAMP!
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Hey, the all caps thing...could you turn that down a little? You know what
I'm talking about - CRZ
pa...@nuri.net
Your ass better call somebodyyyy!:
>>just *show* some Japanese wrestling here in US/Canada and supply
>>the matches with English commentary?
>
> Let's think of some basic costs:
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I assumed it would be
cheaper to acquire TV rights to show the Japanese promotions
here in U.S./Canada, than it would be to ship wrestlers over
here. Most of your basic costs (below) wouldn't be a factor
if all we're talking about is TV rights.
> Flights:
> Working Visas:
> Arenas:
> Promotion:
> Hotel, food, and basic transportation:
> Training facilities:
> Production value:
> Wrestlers:
> Announcers:
The last one would still be a factor. We'd need some damn fine
announcers to to a credible job of selling the Japanese
product. Tenay comes to mind, and possibly Ross if hadn't
gone braindead in the last few months.
>> To me, that would be the easiest
>>way to do some educating while you gather some homegrown talent
>>that can move in once enough interest has been shown by fans in the
>>product. And since we'd know the faces of the Japanese, guest
>>stints in the American fed would be guaranteed moneymakers.
> Who are the "we?" I doubt that more than a few dozen people in America
> can even remember Aja Kong's stint in the WWF or Hokuto's stint in WCW.
When I said "we" would know the faces, I meant well after my
TV idea has been in motion; they Japanese programs would have
been showing for a while, so after that time the fans would
know the faces. And in those months of Japanese TV, homegrown
talent could be developed. And when they we ready, *THEN*
you'd bring in the Japanese women, but only long enough
to get our girls over with the fans. And of course, they'd come
back every so often for guest shots and stuff (I doubt there
would be too many Japanese women who would take such a
chance as to leave their promotion and country for such a
long shot, especially those who have gone through the pains
of starting their own promotions already, noteable Chigusa
Nagayo, Aja Kong, and Kyoko Inoue).
> Also, educating the public is impossible because of the crap factors that go
> on in wrestling here like ECW, WCW's main events, and the WWF. Now, people
> are demanding ridiculous, suicidal, career-risking spots that make no sense.
> dead certain that some people on this newsgroup who claim to be "smarts"
> about wrestling wouldn't appreciate a Fukawa-Okutsu match because they watch
Candy! My baby! Bring it on!
> However, here's what my proposition is: start buying those Japanese
> women's wrestling tapes. Buy them directly from the companies so that they
> can make a profit rather than continue to take losses. Every cent counts
> for them. Second, take those tapes and watch them with family and friends.
> Learn the history of each of these companies on your own and do the proper
> research so you can teach your friends. Tell them that it's real because as
> far as I've been informed, it is. Have your friends show their friends,
> etc. to create a network of people interested in getting women's wrestling
> in America back up. I hear a lot of people talking on this NG about
> wrestlers from Japan, but it sounds like not that many people are really
> familiar with the organizations and how each of them work. That means that
> 3-5 people are actually knowledgable about those things. To really get an
> appreciation of how women's wrestling works, you're going to have to educate
> yourselves by watching these things and doing the proper research. Get the
> tapes and figure out who are the players and what they mean now and then.
> Just saying Manami Toyota is the Goddess (which she is, imho) based on the
Yep, IYODO. Frankly, I'd rather receive a "Candy-gram".
> others from this ng or from seeing one match doesn't do justice to herself
> nor the others.
I think between your idea and mine, we'd have a good thing trucking.
The question is: how much would TV rights be, and how much would
the TV time be to show it?
Curtis.
(pabo at net dot co dot kr)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flame away! I'm Superman! -=-=-=-=- DISCLAIMER?!? Aww, bite me!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other night, I was lying in bed looking up at the stars, and I wondered
"Where the FUCK is my ROOF?!?" -=-=-=-=- http://www.net.co.kr/~pabo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright! I *AM* the Messiah! --- He *IS* the Messiah! --- Now... Fuck Off!
Keith Watanabe
pa...@nuri.net wrote in message <6r1deg$qr1$1...@news.nuri.net>...
>I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I assumed it would be
>cheaper to acquire TV rights to show the Japanese promotions
>here in U.S./Canada, than it would be to ship wrestlers over
>here. Most of your basic costs (below) wouldn't be a factor
>if all we're talking about is TV rights.
Even then, I'd imagine that the rights would be expensive. Most of the
women's federations are having difficulty just obtaining and solidifying the
rights to television in Japan. ARSION just does PPVs on Directv, AJW has
had difficulty with Fuji TV, JWP went from WOWOW to Samurai, and the others,
I believe, are strictly on Samurai TV. And with Samurai TV, it's very
difficult to get over there. I don't think with satellite tv you can watch
that stuff over here.
>
>The last one would still be a factor. We'd need some damn fine
>announcers to to a credible job of selling the Japanese
>product. Tenay comes to mind, and possibly Ross if hadn't
>gone braindead in the last few months.
Tenay is about the only announcer that seems remotely familiar with the
international scene. Ross is overrated, imho, and can't pronounce anything
correctly. He's better at telling a story about the wrestlers and creating
the drama than doing an accurate pbp.
>When I said "we" would know the faces, I meant well after my
>TV idea has been in motion; they Japanese programs would have
>been showing for a while, so after that time the fans would
>know the faces.
I don't think most fans would be able to tell the difference between the
Japanese women's wrestlers. Quite honestly, I have difficulty just keeping
up with the names and faces myself and I can read the kanji. Since most
people in this country aren't forced to learn Japanese (as opposed to in
Japan where people actually begin to learn English at the Jr. High level),
they won't have an appreciation for the wrestlers because they won't be able
to tell them apart. The only way you could prevent that from happening is
by filtering through certain faces and focusing on them. Those faces would
have to be special in talent to differentiate themselves from any American
wrestlers. Unfortunately, since the idea is to import Japanese women's
wrestling television to the states, the filtering process would be
difficult. Also, there isn't a single Japanese women's wrestling
organization that has a solid roster that could appease the high
expectations. I mean, I could argue that ARSION is a good candidate, but no
one here would appreciate the style.
And in those months of Japanese TV, homegrown
>talent could be developed. And when they we ready, *THEN*
>you'd bring in the Japanese women, but only long enough
>to get our girls over with the fans. And of course, they'd come
>back every so often for guest shots and stuff (I doubt there
>would be too many Japanese women who would take such a
>chance as to leave their promotion and country for such a
>long shot, especially those who have gone through the pains
>of starting their own promotions already, noteable Chigusa
>Nagayo, Aja Kong, and Kyoko Inoue).
I think that the idea of homegrown talent is more difficult to implement
than said. The reason why I say this is because every federation has a
style that uniquely defines it. ARSION is focused on submission and
shoot-like gimmicks. AJW and Neo are into flash and entertainment. JWP is
like AJW with the storylines in their television shows integrated more
crisply. LLPW and FMW (before it went up) are into street fights. GAEA is
psychological and brute in force, based on Chigusa. For the women in the US
to work in the context of other federations, say ARSION for instance, they'd
have to learn the style. So that destroys the idea of pure homegrown
talent, unless the federation that the outside promotion wants to work with
is willing to conform their styles to the outside promotion.
More than likely, it will be the girls here who are exported to learn
the style. At least within the near future. Supposedly, when Reggie
Bennett retires, she'll open up a gym here in the states. Of course, the
main dilemma is finding the right girls. When you learn of how the women in
Japan get into the business, it gives you a lot of respect for them. At the
same time, it makes you realize how lenient the structure is in the states
for becoming a wrestler for women. The way I see it, any person who wants
to work overseas should be screened. Why ship off someone who is going to
get hurt and end her career early? The style is stiffer and more rigorous.
To qualify, a person should not only have the heart and determination but
the athletic credentials to back them up.
In terms of leaving the country and working for a while in the states, I
don't think it would be as easy as seeing Taka and Kaientai working over
here. For the US girls to wrestle in ARSION, they can only stay for 3 or 6
months depending on their working visa. I imagine that the same would apply
for the women from Japan. Also, depending on the promotion and how that
promotion fares, the length of time that some of the women would work here
would vary. In Aja's case, I think she could wrestle for a few months
without going back because the federation seems to be stabilizing. Also,
she's a free agent so the promotion isn't as dependent on her as most of us
might suspect. But for the other two, I can't see Chigusa and Kyoko
leaving. Without Chigusa, GAEA doesn't have a teacher and their girls still
need to refine their skills before being set free, imho. And Neo is pretty
much defined by Kyoko- or so she thinks. Heck, if she lets Bass beat her in
the Neo Tourney, then she must be mad enough to believe that she's the only
one in her promotion that can beat her.
> I think between your idea and mine, we'd have a good thing trucking.
> The question is: how much would TV rights be, and how much would
> the TV time be to show it?
Don't know. Since the shows won't be broadcast live, the cost will
definitely be cut in comparison to RAW and Nitro. Still it sounds like an
expensive venture.
Keith Watanabe
Selena Kyte wrote in message
I doubt seriously even the Japanese leagues started out superior to the
American leagues right from the get go. It takes time for anyone, be
they Japanese, American, or whoever, to build themselves up to the
highest levels.
Don't know about this but you do have to remember that Japan has had judo
and many other forms of martial arts. Not to mention Kabuki theatre, Noh,
and several other drama forms that incorporate action to tell a story.
Yes, the overall quality of American women's wrestling isn't up to par,
but the way you're talking, you would rather scrap our efforts and just
import the Japanese women here, the costs of which would be staggering,
as was already pointed out. Just showing their matches here on a weekly
basis somehow would probably mean going through a lot of red tape.
I don't think that was Phil's argument. There isn't a point in importing
the Japanese women when their promotions are having a tremendous time
recuperating from the fall of the Big One (i.e. AJW). Instead, I think what
Phil might have implied is that the women's federations here, without having
a high level of quality, would have tremendous difficulty competing with the
Big Two since their product isn't differentiated in a unique way, aside from
having purely women in it. A typical fan might think, "Why go to a women's
wrestling show with people I never heard of, when I can go up the street for
a few dollars more and see quality action in cruiserweights? Or if I want
to see women, just go to RAW to see Sable?" (I'm not speaking for myself
here; Sable is disgusting to me). When you have that mentality ingrained
into your biggest fan base, a company that is starting up or re-starting up
might be wasting their time. Think about some other issues, like financing
the operation. LPWA went bankrupt, although at the end the wrestlers began
holding up their half. Or if LPWA began receiving a cult-like following,
who's to say that the WWF or WCW wouldn't purchase out their talent and
misuse them to the Madusas, Sables, etc.?
My argument is if there are enough people here in America who care, from
fans all they way up to the executives and those in charge at the
various promotions, then women's wrestling has a chance to succeed.
There needs to be better training, no question about that, but there
also needs to be more opportunities for women to showcase themselves.
I'm talking here about environments where women are valued for skills,
not just looks.
I argue that the opportunities to showcase themselves might not be present
here at the moment. There might be enough people who do care about women's
wrestling to get it re-started, but I fear that a ruthless company like the
WWF might buy out the talent. Money talks especially in this industry where
making a big break is what many people dream about. Given that assumption
then, I'd prefer to wait a little longer than find my favorite stars being
abused.
You can only do so much through the training school environment, looking
at tapes, developing personalities, and so forth, but the only way the
quality of women's wrestling is going to improve is through wrestling.
Who has an excellent, first rate match the first time out? Or maybe
perhaps the first year? It takes time; it takes opportunities. I don't
want "bad" wrestling any more than anybody else, but it's going to take
a lot of patience on our part, and better training from the schools that
are out there, to wait for the "good" wrestling to emerge.
I agree that people can only improve through the experience of wrestling.
But again I have to admit that the timing for women's wrestling in America
isn't open at the moment. At least, if those women wrestlers want to retain
any self-respect. Heck, that's why any women wrestlers who care enough
leave for Japan. That's where the real experience comes to play.
Of course, you welcome to enjoy the Japanese women, if that's your main
preference. I enjoy and support women's wrestling, wherever it may be.
Maybe I have a higher patience level; I don't know.
I support women's wrestling too. But I'd prefer it done right at the
appropriate time. My definition of "done right" though should be explained
more clearly. First, it means presenting a product that differentiates
itself enough from the Big Two to attract their audience and broaden that
following. Second, it means having people who are not interested in the
monetary aspect to immediately jump at an inappropriate time. This allows a
federation to survive when they are pressured by the Big Two. Third, it
means demonstrating that women can be and are superior athletes and to defy
expectations of them as mere sexual objects in the context of wrestling.
Fourth, it should present an opportunity to demonstrate to the Big Two that
the reliance on stereotypes, not just gender, but national, etc. are silly,
archaic ideologies of an immature audience and that pure talent is what the
bottom product is about.
But if it is the major two federations that want to re-install women's
wrestling then there should be a protocol. I think that the WWF is forever
incapable of stringing together a real wrestling product, much less one that
focuses on the women. Their usage of talent from Japan has been abominable
and racially motivated at best.
Their current usage of women is worse than degrading; it's a sick bi-lateral
infestation between the disheveled fans and the lecherous, manipulative
owner.
The WCW might have a better shot of constructing a women's division if they
move away from focusing their product on one star (i.e. Madusa) and keeping
their options open. Also, if the gigantic egos allow it, separate the
women's wrestling from the men's in terms of booking, so that the women can
handle their own matches rather than allowing fat Dusthy to lay his slimey,
pudgy, Jaba-the-Hut paws on their division and send it into oblivion. Or
that lunatic Sullivan for that matter. For some reason though, I can't see
the giant egos not intervening in some manner if the women's league in WCW
does better than the men's.
Yatsuatari
some information about the Japanese tv broadcasts.
> Even then, I'd imagine that the rights would be expensive. Most of the
>women's federations are having difficulty just obtaining and solidifying the
>rights to television in Japan. ARSION just does PPVs on Directv, AJW has
>had difficulty with Fuji TV, JWP went from WOWOW to Samurai, and the others,
>I believe, are strictly on Samurai TV. And with Samurai TV, it's very
>difficult to get over there. I don't think with satellite tv you can watch
>that stuff over here.
AJW is the onlywomen's promotion which has had any network television
exposure recently. After a hiatus they are trying to get back onto Fuji tv.
The only other option for people without a satelite dish is cable television.
Most cable carriers offer GAORA sports channel which carries Gaea Japan's
monthly programs as well as older Gaea shows on Champ Forum classics.
Yoshimoto Pro : Jd' is also carried regularly on GAORA. The station also
occassionally airs special events such as the Oz Academy special.
Within the last year, satelite television has become a lot more popular.
Samurai Fighting TV is a gold mine for professional wrestling fans, showing
most every men's and women's organization. Unfortunately, Samurai TV is not
offered on the most common system: Direct TV. If you want to see Samurai TV
you need to get a Sky Perfect satelite system. Furthermore, as a premium
channel, Samurai TV costs extra and is one of the most expensive channels
offered.
Even though the the Sky Perfect system is slowly catching on, I would agree
with the statement that Samurai TV is difficult to get and isn't seen by many
people in Japan.
The vast majority of women's wrestling fans have to rely upon video tapes
if they want to see matches on tv. Luckily, we have good stores such as
Tsutaya Book and Video which stocks essentially every commercial tape for sale
or rent.
I realize it's kind of off topic but even men's wrestling has become harder
to see lately. As opposed to a few years ago even mainstays New Japan and All
Japan have been pushed back to irregular times and are often preempted in favor
of golf, auto racing, or other events (at least on my local affiliate).
>
>>When I said "we" would know the faces, I meant well after my
>>TV idea has been in motion; they Japanese programs would have
>>been showing for a while, so after that time the fans would
>>know the faces.
>
> I don't think most fans would be able to tell the difference between the
>Japanese women's wrestlers. Quite honestly, I have difficulty just keeping
>up with the names and faces myself and I can read the kanji. Since most
>people in this country aren't forced to learn Japanese (as opposed to in
>Japan where people actually begin to learn English at the Jr. High level),
>they won't have an appreciation for the wrestlers because they won't be able
>to tell them apart.
I'm not in a position to comment about American wrestling fans so I'll
defer to your judgement. However, I think if Curtis' idea about showing
Japanese wrestling in the USA was implemented, I think that over time the
wrestlers could be recognized and related to.
I agree that some "meaningless" on-screen kanji and foreign language
commentary is not all that helpful. I have been sending tapes to people for
years who still can't recognize who is who. However, I am assuming that the
idea is to have English language commentary for these shows.
I believe this can be effective, and I cite the success of foreign
wrestling programs shown here in Japan. ECW television is shown on GAORA
complete with Japanese commentary and Japanese on-screen graphics such as
subtitled interviews. This has been instrumental in helping my friends learn
and care about the different wrestlers. The same goes for WCW's bilingual
broadcasts.
Being able to learn the history of a particular wrestler and to get a sense
of that person's personality through interviews goes a long long way towards
putting a name with a face and adding to the overall recognition of a
particular wrestler. I will grant that the average two Japanese wrestlers may
look more alike than any 2 given foreign wrestlers, but in my opinion I still
think most people could come to recognize the wrestlers (assuming they care
enough to do so).
>Also, there isn't a single Japanese women's wrestling
>organization that has a solid roster that could appease the high
>expectations. I mean, I could argue that ARSION is a good candidate, but no
>one here would appreciate the style.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. While I personally prefer Gaea Japan to
the other organizations, I will be the first to admit that the 12 women on the
roster would get stale really fast if they didn't routinely import talent from
other organizations for their shows.
I don't want to generalize about Americans, but I get the feeling that you
are correct about them not appreciating ARSION's style. The societal
familiarity with martial arts such as judo as well as the long acceptance of
men's submission wrestling make ARSION's style a good fit in Japan. When I
have sent Rings or Pancrase tapes to American friends, the common complain is
that it is boring. I feel that that would likely be the reaction to ARSION as
well.
>> I think between your idea and mine, we'd have a good thing trucking.
>> The question is: how much would TV rights be, and how much would
>> the TV time be to show it?
>
>Don't know. Since the shows won't be broadcast live, the cost will
>definitely be cut in comparison to RAW and Nitro. Still it sounds like an
>expensive venture.
>
I agree that the venture would likely be difficult but I'd sure like to see
it catch on. Despite Michinoku's recent problems I think they have
accomplished a somewhat similar (although by no means as difficult a task) very
well with their recent work with Ultimo Dragon's G.R. promotion. For months on
their tv broadcasts they would show matches from Mexico with Sasuke and the
other studio hosts providing commentary. Over time, people became familiar
with the various luchadores which is now paying off as those same wrestlers
have now come to Japan to tour with Michinoku. I realize that a similar
arrangement for the Japanese and American women would be difficult (for all the
reasons laid out in the previous posts) but if it could be pulled off I think
this model would be a good one to follow.
Keith Watanabe
Yatsuatari wrote in message
<199808182036...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Even though the the Sky Perfect system is slowly catching on, I would
agree
>with the statement that Samurai TV is difficult to get and isn't seen by
many
>people in Japan.
> The vast majority of women's wrestling fans have to rely upon video
tapes
>if they want to see matches on tv. Luckily, we have good stores such as
>Tsutaya Book and Video which stocks essentially every commercial tape for
sale
>or rent.
> I realize it's kind of off topic but even men's wrestling has become
harder
>to see lately. As opposed to a few years ago even mainstays New Japan and
All
>Japan have been pushed back to irregular times and are often preempted in
favor
>of golf, auto racing, or other events (at least on my local affiliate).
From what my friend tells me, AJW used to be broadcast at midnight so
their popularity was restricted to non-prime time. As for the video tape
situation, an interesting note of how people know about the US promotions is
that most fans there watch the WWF, WCW, and ECW through tapes. The guys on
the ARSION tour preferred WCW while Yumi Fukawa, Michiko Ohmukai, and Tamada
Rie all prefered the WWF. Hmm.....
> I'm not in a position to comment about American wrestling fans so I'll
>defer to your judgement. However, I think if Curtis' idea about showing
>Japanese wrestling in the USA was implemented, I think that over time the
>wrestlers could be recognized and related to.
> I agree that some "meaningless" on-screen kanji and foreign language
>commentary is not all that helpful. I have been sending tapes to people
for
>years who still can't recognize who is who. However, I am assuming that
the
>idea is to have English language commentary for these shows.
> I believe this can be effective, and I cite the success of foreign
>wrestling programs shown here in Japan. ECW television is shown on GAORA
>complete with Japanese commentary and Japanese on-screen graphics such as
>subtitled interviews. This has been instrumental in helping my friends
learn
>and care about the different wrestlers. The same goes for WCW's bilingual
>broadcasts.
I think that it could work, but the popularity of individual wrestlers
won't skyrocket. Most wrestlers would still appear generic to the majority
of the American public. And the reason is simple: lack of respect. In
Japan, I think people are willing and patient enough to bypass stereotypes
and examine the person's talent, at least in regard to wrestling. Here,
people want results immediately and don't respect effort nor heart. Look at
the ECW fans and what they're like. Rocco Rock missing the moonsault
received a plethora of "you fucked up!" chants rather than "oohs!" for
trying. That cultural difference is my deciding point on why Japanese
wrestling hasn't caught on here. Taka puts on a decent performance every
time, the cruiserweights and luchadores give it 100%, but there isn't enough
people that respect them to put them on the fore front.
Maybe given a lot of time and effort, the Japanese women's style (or
Japanese style in general) can be popularized in the US if there are good
announcers that can help people understand the style. People are like ants
in that respect; they flock to something made available to them. However,
the problem I see is the willingness of most stations to take a
profit/viewer loss that would incur while the fans become accustomed to the
style. If the station is patient and willing to make the effort, then this
television idea has a chance. Yet, I still see this style being localized
and cult-like rather than receiving nation-wide acceptance.
My counter argument for
> Being able to learn the history of a particular wrestler and to get a
sense
>of that person's personality through interviews goes a long long way
towards
>putting a name with a face and adding to the overall recognition of a
>particular wrestler. I will grant that the average two Japanese wrestlers
may
>look more alike than any 2 given foreign wrestlers, but in my opinion I
still
>think most people could come to recognize the wrestlers (assuming they care
>enough to do so).
But that's just it. Will people care enough to set aside their cultural
belief systems to look at the talent? I went to a school with a population
of 60% asian (myself being Japanese) and the asians themselves ridiculed the
notion of the "generic asian." Heck, while showing an AJW tape, some
Chinese girls walked by and commented, "pornography!" They didn't even give
me a chance to show them what the tape was about. Given the boundaries of
cultural differences, it's difficult to assess how most people will receive
the wrestling style.
On the other hand, the same day quite a few people trickled into my room
(mostly guys) and found the AJW style fascinating. My assessment of the
situation is that people will watch out of curiousity but won't know what to
make of the situation. Actually importing the wrestlers at this point will
obviously be detrimental. A solid announcing team can make a huge
difference but there isn't any guarentee of success.
>
> I don't want to generalize about Americans, but I get the feeling that
you
>are correct about them not appreciating ARSION's style. The societal
>familiarity with martial arts such as judo as well as the long acceptance
of
>men's submission wrestling make ARSION's style a good fit in Japan. When I
>have sent Rings or Pancrase tapes to American friends, the common complain
is
>that it is boring. I feel that that would likely be the reaction to ARSION
as
>well.
Again, it would become a cult-like interest. Aside from the not being
familiar with the martial arts style, the American audience, imho, have been
trained to prefer "psychotic spots" (not just high spots anymore) and silly
storylines. About the only selling point that ARSION has at this point with
the American public would be the modeling books by Omukai, Yumi, Candy, and
Ayako.
>
> I agree that the venture would likely be difficult but I'd sure like to
see
>it catch on. Despite Michinoku's recent problems I think they have
>accomplished a somewhat similar (although by no means as difficult a task)
very
>well with their recent work with Ultimo Dragon's G.R. promotion. For
months on
>their tv broadcasts they would show matches from Mexico with Sasuke and
the
>other studio hosts providing commentary. Over time, people became familiar
>with the various luchadores which is now paying off as those same wrestlers
>have now come to Japan to tour with Michinoku. I realize that a similar
>arrangement for the Japanese and American women would be difficult (for all
the
>reasons laid out in the previous posts) but if it could be pulled off I
think
>this model would be a good one to follow.
I think the model is, indeed, a good one. From what I've seen of
Samurai TV, they would have a wrestler on as a guest and that in turn would
allow them to comment on the matches and educate the fans. Here, the big
question is, "Who will do it?" I still think that the WWF is incapable of
doing such things without inserting their little social commentary and lame
story lines into the mix. WCW is in a better position to get this type of
style across if they are willing to set aside a show like Pro or Worldwide
(which have become nothing more than summaries of the week), get competent
commentators, and separate the egos (i.e. Hogan) from interfering in such a
project. I can only see Tenay as the competent commentator in getting the
international style across at this point, unless they find someone as
equally knowledgable but with an authoratative voice as well.
>
>
rand...@my-dejanews.com
"Keith Watanabe" <con...@concentric.net> wrote:
> However, here's what my proposition is: start buying those Japanese
> women's wrestling tapes. Buy them directly from the companies so that they
> can make a profit rather than continue to take losses. Every cent counts
> for them. Second, take those tapes and watch them with family and friends.
> Learn the history of each of these companies on your own and do the proper
> research so you can teach your friends. Tell them that it's real because as
> far as I've been informed, it is. Have your friends show their friends,
> etc. to create a network of people interested in getting women's wrestling
> in America back up.
I have never felt the need to post to this board before, but this time I
feel compelled to pull myself away from my legos and He-man dolls long
enought to reply. Specifically, could someone please tell me what is meant
by the statement "Tell them that it's real because as far as I've been
informed, it is", means? Either 1) I'm supposed to believe that Japanese
women's wrestling is a legitimate unscripted shoot fight. Now I enjoy a 5
star Toyota / Hokuto match as the next person, but there is no way that it is
any less worked than the average Duggan / Meng match. A heck of a lot better
for sure, but no more "real" in the sense that is meant here. Or 2) I am
supposed to mislead my friends and tell them it's real when I know full well
that it isn't. My response to this is: I would never insult my friends'
intelligence in this way, and if I did, they would just look at me like I was
an idiot. Could someone please clarify what is meant here because regardless
of what you were "informed" you can't possibly believe this to be true. If
you DO actually believe this, then I guess that explains it all and I
wouldn't expect any further elaboration to make any more sense than the
previous statement.
Any help?
Sincerely,
Skeletor