[WWF] The Netcop Retro Rant for King of the Ring 98
Scott Keith
Asbestos underwear: Check.
Large flame-retardant shield: Check.
Let's do it...
The Netcop Retro Rant for King of the Ring 98
- Yeah, I know this is out of order. 97 sucked so we'll work it in
before the show this weekend. Besides, this has become the default
most-requested rant ever since I got bombed and stopped the original
review about half an hour into the show due to the fact that I could no
longer read my own handwriting. Thankfully I acquired my trusty Toshiba
laptop after that, and since I'm a touch typist I can blissfully work
through any amount of alcoholic consumption...which is especially
helpful for ECW shows.
- Live from Pittsburgh, PA
- Your hosts are Jim Ross and Jerry Lawler.
- Opening match: Kaientai v. TAKA Michinoku & The Headbangers.
Thrasher and Men's Teoih start, and man is Teoih short. More beats from
the Bangers on Kaientai. Taka gets the first highspot with his plancha
on Funaki. JR actually mentions the UWA middleweight title, oddly
enough. Taka misses another highspot and wipes out on the floor,
allowing KDX to take over. Kind of a schmozz breaks out and the Bangers
double-team Funaki, and Taka hits the Michinoku Driver for the pin.
Spotty but served it's purpose. **3/4
- Some chick...Rena something...comes out to introduce Mr. McMahon.
Vince runs down the crowd and warns them to prepare for Austin losing
the title tonight. Dull time-filler.
- King of the Ring Semi-Final #1: Jeff Jarrett v. Ken Shamrock. JJ was
in Gimmick Number Three at this point: Another attempt at the "Ain't I
Great" thing, complete with Tennessee Lee. Shammy tosses JJ around like
a ragdoll and tries to kill him. He puts his head down and gets
neckbreakered...broken...whatever. They fight outside the ring and
Shamrock beats the crap out of Jarrett. Lee's interference allows JJ to
go to work on the ankle. Shamrock basically decides to stop selling at
some arbitrary point and makes the comeback with a vicious rana and
anklelock for the tap-out. This was there. **1/4
- Semi-Final #2: The Rock v. Dan Severn. For those who keep track of
these things, Rock is using the version of his music from WWF The Music
3. Severn tries some amateur wrestling stuff, which the crowd could
care less about. Rock is over huge as a heel, and the crowd wakes up.
Rocky gets his offense in, Severn makes the comeback, and the Nation
distracts the referee long enough for D-Lo Brown to debut his chest
protector with a frog splash on Severn for the Rocky win. This was
there. *1/2
- Too Much v. Al Snow & Head. See, if Too Much wins, then Al Snow has
to leave. Right. Dumb match, as Snow gets double-teamed (with Jerry
Lawler doing reffing duties) for a few minutes, before Snow makes the
tag to Head. Snow Plow to Scott Taylor, but Lawler gives Brian
Christopher a bottle of Head & Shoulders, which Brian attaches to Head
so he can pin it. As fun to watch as it sounds. 1/2* JR made the
comment later in the show that the match set the business back 20 years,
and it's hard to argue. Thankfully, Snow has moved onto the more
dignified realm of picking boogers and eating them on hidden camera,
while Too Much have morphed into wannabe rapper bad boys...oh fuck it.
- X-Pac v. Owen Hart. This was the final step down in the D-X feud for
Owen -- from Shawn to HHH to X-Pac. This was basically X-Pac's comeback
match after head injury #92984. They trade leg lariats after some
initial feeling out, and it picks up a bit when they make it outside and
X-Pac goes crashing into the timekeeper. Owen suplexes him onto the
Spanish announce table for good measure. Back in the ring and X-Pac
escapes a sleeper and hits the X-Factor, which was not yet established
as a finisher. The Broncobuster is almost blocked by Owen, but X-Pac
decides to ignore that and Owen is a good sport and sells it. Ending
breaks down as Owen gets the Sharpshooter on X-Pac while Vader and Mark
Henry fight outside the ring, allowing Chyna to DDT Owen for the X-Pac
pin. I could have done without the massively overbooked ending, but it
was a nice introduction to the "new" Sean Waltman after years of
luchadorial conquests. ***
- WWF World tag team title: The New Age Outlaws v. The New Midnight
Express. This is the only meeting on PPV between WWF and NWA World tag
team champs. Road Dog is still working the kinks out of the
catchphrase. Oddly, three of the four guys here are legitimate singles
contenders in the WWF today, and the fourth (Bart Gunn) would be had he
not gotten knocked on his ass at WM15. The Smokin Gunns face off and do
a nice little sequence, then Road Dog ends up playing Ricky Morton.
Really good double-team stuff from the NME, but the crowd is not into
this. But then the match was added at the last minute so there's no
angle here, which is a shame because it's a fine match. Billy Gunn gets
the hot tag and goes for the piledriver on Holly, but Cornette nails him
with an NWA belt for a two count. Gunn comes back with a two of his
own, and Cornette gets involved again, only to get nailed by Chyna.
Took too long. The Outlaws go 2-on-1 on Holly and hit a double-team
stungun for the pin to retain the titles. I liked this match even more
this time around than I did the first time, oddly enough. ***1/4 It
was also the last good match the Outlaws had before descending into
catchphrase hell as Road Dog woke up one morning and realized that they
didn't need to wrestle anymore.
- King of the Ring: Ken Shamrock v. The Rock. HHH is doing color at
ringside. They do a meaningless series of counters that ends with a
Shamrock kick that sends Rocky running for the hills. Looked good,
didn't accomplish anything. We learn Chyna has joined the Spanish
commentary team and in fact speaks Spanish. Back in the ring, and Rocky
ends up going out of the ring again. he gets into a shoving match with
HHH as he passes by, and Shamrock ambushes Rock from behind to trigger a
brawl. HHH goes back to the commentary table and gets off his classic
"testes...testes...1...2...3??" line. Back outside the ring again for
more brawling. The Foley series taught Rock how to make that into an
art form. Back in the ring and Rocky pulls out the neckbreaker and DDT
for a two-count. Crowd starts with the "Rocky Sucks" stuff. People's
Elbow (not yet named) gets two, and only half the normal reaction...but
the reaction was building at that point. Mundo resto from Rock. Layin'
The Smack Down DDT gets two, and Shamrock makes a brief comeback, and we
do a double KO. Shamrock up and he snaps, dropkick, powerslam for two.
Sloppy perfectplex gets two. Rock catches him with a powerslam of his
own for two. Rock goes for another DDT but Shamrock counters with a
northern lights suplex for two. Short arm clothesline from Rock for
two. Shamrock with his own for two. Shamrock tries a rana but gets
dropped on the top rope for two. Rocky argues with the ref, but that
gives Shamrock time to recover, and when Rocky stands over him and
trash-talks, Shammy rolls up and clamps on the anklelock for the
tap-out. Solid match with a good, CLEAN ending. ***1/4
- Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker. Mick noted in a later
interview that his biggest mistake was asking Terry Funk for advice
before this match. Funk's wisdom: "Start on top of the cage". So they
do so, as Mick goads UT into climbing up the cage. It should be noted
that all the squares of fencing on the top are loose, so it wasn't just
That One. So UT tosses Mick off the top of the cage onto the Spanish
table, and to be brutally honest, it lacks the same impact as when
you're bombed and not expecting it. I mean, it was a nice bump and all,
but there wasn't anything to build up to it. And on second viewing,
Mick guides himself down by holding onto the cage as he falls. I mean,
for full points on the dive, you have to free fall. The judges at the
Olympics wouldn't allow a dive where the diver grabs the board to guide
himself, would they? Anyway, all jesting aside...Terry Funk comes out
to check on Mick and they stretcher him off, but Mick fights them off
and climbs the cage again to a big pop. Then comes the next Holy Shit
Bump, as UT gives Mick a half-assed chokeslam and Mick takes a bump
sixteen feet through the cage to the mat below. UT goes for the
ropewalk but Foley pushes him off and gives us the famous shot of the
tooth sticking out of his nose as his mouth bleeds. They fight to the
floor and UT rams the stairs into him. UT goes for a tope suicida but
Mick ducks and UT hits the cage...and blades on-camera. D'Oh! Back in
the ring and a Mankind piledriver on a chair gets two. Legdrop on a
chair gets two. Double-arm DDT, and Mick rolls under the ring and
retrieves his bag of thumbtacks. He puts the Mandible Claw on and UT
drops him on the thumbtacks. Chokeslam on the thumbtacks. Tombstone
finishes it. Okay, now for the major criticisms and why this is NOT a
****3/4 MOTYC.
- The actual moves done between the bumps were not well executed. The
chokeslam through the cage was sloppy, with Mick basically falling
backwards. UT did a pretty perfunctory tope, and then made the rookie
mistake of blading in clear view of the camera. That's just sloppiness.
Go back and watch Badd Blood (which is the next rant scheduled --
patience, friends, patience) and compare with Shawn's primo bladejob in
mid-air.
- There was only a few actual wrestling moves done -- Legdrop, DDT,
Mandible Claw, chokeslam, tombstone. UT-Shawn, the closest WWF match to
compare with, had smaller bumps by Shawn, but more of them and more
intense ones, with better wrestling and better brawling in between them.
- The chokeslam bump was an accident.
- Undertaker was working on a broken ankle and was very limited in his
mobility.
Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
Foley bumping does not a match make, it just makes more money for the
hospitals. My verdict: I'll be more generous than Herb and go *, but
the "Holy shit" factor from first watching it is totally gone after
numerous replays have killed the uniqueness of the original viewing.
There you have it.
Main Event, First Blood, WWF Title: Steve Austin v. Kane. Since it's
physically impossible for Austin to make Kane bleed, the result wasn't
really in doubt, although the internet was in denial about that fact for
the weeks leading up to it. Kane whoops Austin's ass for a bit, and the
cage mysteriously lowers. Kane whoops Austin's ass some more, ramming
him into the cage some more. See, now how is less of a good match than
the UT-Foley one? Do the two bumps really add *** or so to it's value?
Anyway, Kane gets caught in the cage and it mysteriouly starts to rise
again. They brawl to the entranceway. Austin takes his patented "go
for a piledriver but get backdropped" bump. They head back to the ring,
then brawl back outside again. Hebner takes a weak bump on the floor
and Kane tosses Austin back in and hits the flying clothesline. Austin
comes back and stomps him. Man, Hebner must have had another aneurism
out there or something, he's been out forever. Mankind runs in with a
chair, and the cage lowers again as Mick take a Stuner for the company.
Stunner on Kane. Undertaker gets last run-in honors, swinging at Mick
with a chair but hitting Austin (who also blades on-camera) and the ref
wakes up to see that Kane is the new WWF champion. It should be noted
that Austin found not one, but TWO ways to job the title without
actually, you know, jobbing, in the same year. The other being
Breakdown with the double-chokeslam-double-pin ending. Match was
absolutely nothing. *1/2
The Bottom Line: Wildly divergent opinions on you-know-what aside,
there was some really solid wrestling in the form of Rock-Shamrock and
NAO-NME. Owen-XPac narrowly misses match of the night honors. And
Foley-UT is really worth a look, if only to make your own judgment on
it.
Recommended show.
Scott "Netcop" Keith / ske...@home.com / ICQ # 28819658
Rant Archives: http://come.to/netcop
Wrestling FAQ URL: http://come.to/rspwfaq
Rantsylvania : http://members.home.net/netcopnews
John Eustice
>
> - Yeah, I know this is out of order. 97 sucked so we'll work it in
> before the show this weekend.
You're a brave man to watch that show. I watched some of it when I was
dubbing it and it seemed horrible. The Foley/HHH match was extremely
boring, the main event sucked and Shawn/Austin wasn't as good as I
thought it was.
> - Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker.
Might as well comment on this...
> Okay, now for the major criticisms and why this is NOT a
> ****3/4 MOTYC.
Agreed, I thought Austin/Foley at Over the Edge was *much* better.
> - The actual moves done between the bumps were not well executed. The
> chokeslam through the cage was sloppy, with Mick basically falling
> backwards. UT did a pretty perfunctory tope, and then made the rookie
> mistake of blading in clear view of the camera. That's just sloppiness.
> Go back and watch Badd Blood (which is the next rant scheduled --
> patience, friends, patience) and compare with Shawn's primo bladejob in
> mid-air.
Shawn also bladed on camera. He did it right before he was slingshotted
into the cage.
> and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
I don't think so. It was a good bump and all but Foley risked his life
with that bump. Not that that's the kind of bump I wanted to see, but it
was a better "bump."
> Main Event, First Blood, WWF Title: Steve Austin v. Kane.
IIRC both guys were injured but it was still a pretty boring brawl.
> The Bottom Line: Wildly divergent opinions on you-know-what aside,
> there was some really solid wrestling in the form of Rock-Shamrock and
> NAO-NME. Owen-XPac narrowly misses match of the night honors. And
> Foley-UT is really worth a look, if only to make your own judgment on
> it.
>
> Recommended show.
Kind of a weird show but it did have some good stuff on the undercard
plus The Match (even if it did suck) so it's worth a look. I think the
93 and 94 version are better if you want to watch it for the actual KOTR
tourney. And when are you going to change the 93 version to a
reccomendation since everyone seems to love it :)
Later,
John
Justin Crast
>Bullet-proof vest: Check.
>Asbestos underwear: Check.
>Large flame-retardant shield: Check.
The only thing blocking the flames here is the moderation. But I like the
effort.
>Let's do it...
>
>The Netcop Retro Rant for King of the Ring 98
>
>- Yeah, I know this is out of order. 97 sucked so we'll work it in
>before the show this weekend. Besides, this has become the default
>most-requested rant ever since I got bombed and stopped the original
>review about half an hour into the show due to the fact that I could no
>longer read my own handwriting. Thankfully I acquired my trusty Toshiba
>laptop after that, and since I'm a touch typist I can blissfully work
>through any amount of alcoholic consumption...which is especially
>helpful for ECW shows.
I've enjoyed every ECW PPV except Wrestlepalooza and the N2Rs.
>- Live from Pittsburgh, PA
>
>- Your hosts are Jim Ross and Jerry Lawler.
>
>- Opening match: Kaientai v. TAKA Michinoku & The Headbangers.
>Thrasher and Men's Teoih start, and man is Teoih short. More beats from
>the Bangers on Kaientai. Taka gets the first highspot with his plancha
>on Funaki. JR actually mentions the UWA middleweight title, oddly
>enough. Taka misses another highspot and wipes out on the floor,
>allowing KDX to take over. Kind of a schmozz breaks out and the Bangers
>double-team Funaki, and Taka hits the Michinoku Driver for the pin.
>Spotty but served it's purpose. **3/4
The Headbangers didn't fit in too well. It was spotty; the transitions
weren't too sound, but the pace was ok and the spots were good. **1/2
>- Some chick...Rena something...comes out to introduce Mr. McMahon.
>Vince runs down the crowd and warns them to prepare for Austin losing
>the title tonight. Dull time-filler.
WWF PPV's had a lot of these time fillers during the shows in this time.
Over the Edge had a really, really long one with McMahon and his stooges.
>- King of the Ring Semi-Final #1: Jeff Jarrett v. Ken Shamrock. JJ was
>in Gimmick Number Three at this point: Another attempt at the "Ain't I
>Great" thing, complete with Tennessee Lee. Shammy tosses JJ around like
>a ragdoll and tries to kill him. He puts his head down and gets
>neckbreakered...broken...whatever. They fight outside the ring and
>Shamrock beats the crap out of Jarrett. Lee's interference allows JJ to
>go to work on the ankle. Shamrock basically decides to stop selling at
>some arbitrary point and makes the comeback with a vicious rana and
>anklelock for the tap-out. This was there. **1/4
Really bland, but all the moves were executed well, and the match storyline
was ok. Clean finish, I give it **.
>- Semi-Final #2: The Rock v. Dan Severn. For those who keep track of
>these things, Rock is using the version of his music from WWF The Music
>3. Severn tries some amateur wrestling stuff, which the crowd could
>care less about. Rock is over huge as a heel, and the crowd wakes up.
>Rocky gets his offense in, Severn makes the comeback, and the Nation
>distracts the referee long enough for D-Lo Brown to debut his chest
>protector with a frog splash on Severn for the Rocky win. This was
>there. *1/2
Rock had no idea what to do with Severn taking him down and mat wrestling a
little. He was seriously clueless. I think Severn noticed this, but he just
sucks too much to readjust his style to Rock's mid match. Ugly match. Dlo's
Frog Splash was the saving grace. 1/2*.
>- Too Much v. Al Snow & Head. See, if Too Much wins, then Al Snow has
>to leave. Right. Dumb match, as Snow gets double-teamed (with Jerry
>Lawler doing reffing duties) for a few minutes, before Snow makes the
>tag to Head. Snow Plow to Scott Taylor, but Lawler gives Brian
>Christopher a bottle of Head & Shoulders, which Brian attaches to Head
>so he can pin it. As fun to watch as it sounds. 1/2* JR made the
>comment later in the show that the match set the business back 20 years,
>and it's hard to argue. Thankfully, Snow has moved onto the more
>dignified realm of picking boogers and eating them on hidden camera,
>while Too Much have morphed into wannabe rapper bad boys...oh fuck it.
This match was horrible. Taylor's spring board plancha rocked. I don't care
if it looked a little wobbly. These are fucking WWF ropes. This is a
springboard plancha on loose WWF ropes. The move ruled. There were small Al
Snow chants and stuff. The storyline was fine, but the execution was
horrible. 1/4*
>- X-Pac v. Owen Hart. This was the final step down in the D-X feud for
>Owen -- from Shawn to HHH to X-Pac. This was basically X-Pac's comeback
>match after head injury #92984. They trade leg lariats after some
>initial feeling out, and it picks up a bit when they make it outside and
>X-Pac goes crashing into the timekeeper. Owen suplexes him onto the
>Spanish announce table for good measure. Back in the ring and X-Pac
>escapes a sleeper and hits the X-Factor, which was not yet established
>as a finisher. The Broncobuster is almost blocked by Owen, but X-Pac
>decides to ignore that and Owen is a good sport and sells it. Ending
>breaks down as Owen gets the Sharpshooter on X-Pac while Vader and Mark
>Henry fight outside the ring, allowing Chyna to DDT Owen for the X-Pac
>pin. I could have done without the massively overbooked ending, but it
>was a nice introduction to the "new" Sean Waltman after years of
>luchadorial conquests. ***
A little bland and not as fast paced as some would have thought. Owen and
Waltman probably did more moves in their 3 and a half minute match at
KOTR'94. Still, solid match with good bumps from Waltman. The finish slowed
down the match too much. **3/4
>- WWF World tag team title: The New Age Outlaws v. The New Midnight
>Express. This is the only meeting on PPV between WWF and NWA World tag
>team champs. Road Dog is still working the kinks out of the
>catchphrase. Oddly, three of the four guys here are legitimate singles
>contenders in the WWF today, and the fourth (Bart Gunn) would be had he
>not gotten knocked on his ass at WM15. The Smokin Gunns face off and do
>a nice little sequence, then Road Dog ends up playing Ricky Morton.
>Really good double-team stuff from the NME, but the crowd is not into
>this. But then the match was added at the last minute so there's no
>angle here, which is a shame because it's a fine match. Billy Gunn gets
>the hot tag and goes for the piledriver on Holly, but Cornette nails him
>with an NWA belt for a two count. Gunn comes back with a two of his
>own, and Cornette gets involved again, only to get nailed by Chyna.
>Took too long. The Outlaws go 2-on-1 on Holly and hit a double-team
>stungun for the pin to retain the titles. I liked this match even more
>this time around than I did the first time, oddly enough. ***1/4 It
>was also the last good match the Outlaws had before descending into
>catchphrase hell as Road Dog woke up one morning and realized that they
>didn't need to wrestle anymore.
They all tried hard, but the psychology and moves were just bland. I didn't
think the Double team moves by the Midnights were particularly great because
there was no build to them, and I thought the execution could have been
better. The heat was nonexistant by this match too. The end picked up a
little, and it was still a decent match. **
>- King of the Ring: Ken Shamrock v. The Rock. HHH is doing color at
>ringside. They do a meaningless series of counters that ends with a
>Shamrock kick that sends Rocky running for the hills. Looked good,
>didn't accomplish anything. We learn Chyna has joined the Spanish
>commentary team and in fact speaks Spanish. Back in the ring, and Rocky
>ends up going out of the ring again. he gets into a shoving match with
>HHH as he passes by, and Shamrock ambushes Rock from behind to trigger a
>brawl. HHH goes back to the commentary table and gets off his classic
>"testes...testes...1...2...3??" line. Back outside the ring again for
>more brawling. The Foley series taught Rock how to make that into an
>art form. Back in the ring and Rocky pulls out the neckbreaker and DDT
>for a two-count. Crowd starts with the "Rocky Sucks" stuff. People's
>Elbow (not yet named) gets two, and only half the normal reaction...but
>the reaction was building at that point. Mundo resto from Rock. Layin'
>The Smack Down DDT gets two, and Shamrock makes a brief comeback, and we
>do a double KO. Shamrock up and he snaps, dropkick, powerslam for two.
>Sloppy perfectplex gets two. Rock catches him with a powerslam of his
>own for two. Rock goes for another DDT but Shamrock counters with a
>northern lights suplex for two. Short arm clothesline from Rock for
>two. Shamrock with his own for two. Shamrock tries a rana but gets
>dropped on the top rope for two. Rocky argues with the ref, but that
>gives Shamrock time to recover, and when Rocky stands over him and
>trash-talks, Shammy rolls up and clamps on the anklelock for the
>tap-out. Solid match with a good, CLEAN ending. ***1/4
I liked the build towards near falls in this match. The psychology was real
good too. Rock DDT's Shamrock for a near fall. Later, he does his hurricane
DDT for another hot near fall. Lastly, he tries the same hurricane DDT, but
Shamrock reverses it into a Northern Lights Suplex for a really hot 2 count.
There were too many rest holds in the finishing sequence and some of the
moves were sloppy so ***1/4.
I agree with all of this.
>- There was only a few actual wrestling moves done -- Legdrop, DDT,
>Mandible Claw, chokeslam, tombstone. UT-Shawn, the closest WWF match to
>compare with, had smaller bumps by Shawn, but more of them and more
>intense ones, with better wrestling and better brawling in between them.
Right.....
>- The chokeslam bump was an accident.
It wasn't actually.
>- Undertaker was working on a broken ankle and was very limited in his
>mobility.
Very true.
>Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
>1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
>and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
This is wrong. Vince's fall wasn't from the same height, and it was clear
the table was better padded for his bump; likely because they knew how to
pad it correctly after Foley's fall.
>Foley bumping does not a match make, it just makes more money for the
>hospitals. My verdict: I'll be more generous than Herb and go *, but
>the "Holy shit" factor from first watching it is totally gone after
>numerous replays have killed the uniqueness of the original viewing.
>There you have it.
I can't agree. I feel the two best bumps in prowrestling history happened in
this match. The two best bumps ever. Plus, there was other good stuff. UT
made a point to focus on Foley's injured jaw and shoulder after the
chokeslam bump. The thumbtack bumps were built to well, with a couple teases
before the actual bump. Then the UT chokeslam raised the thumbtack bump
another level. Honestly, do you think the UT-Mankind wrestling sequences
here were far worse than in their April'97 IYH match, Survivor Series'96,
December'96 IYH match, and assorted other matches. I don't think so. The
workrate in this match was bad. But the psychology was sound, and the bumps
were just fantastic. People give the 4-89 Flair vs Steamboat and 6-89
Tsuruta-Tenryu matches ***** basically because they thought the psychology
was amazing. They give the Misterio-Guerrera AAA matches ****1/2 + because
of the awesome workrate. This HIAC match had the best bumps I've ever seen
plus some decent psyche. I couldn't go lower than **** for the match.
And didn't Herb give it ****1/2, or was he just using Meltzer's rating
because he was uncomfortable rating it himself?
>Main Event, First Blood, WWF Title: Steve Austin v. Kane. Since it's
>physically impossible for Austin to make Kane bleed, the result wasn't
>really in doubt, although the internet was in denial about that fact for
>the weeks leading up to it. Kane whoops Austin's ass for a bit, and the
>cage mysteriously lowers. Kane whoops Austin's ass some more, ramming
>him into the cage some more. See, now how is less of a good match than
>the UT-Foley one? Do the two bumps really add *** or so to it's value?
I can't really pinpoint the exact value the bumps add. I look at star
ratings holistically for the most part.
>Anyway, Kane gets caught in the cage and it mysteriouly starts to rise
>again. They brawl to the entranceway. Austin takes his patented "go
>for a piledriver but get backdropped" bump.
Some time, Austin should actually hit the piledriver. It might add some heat
to the reversal if the audience thought the outcome could be different.
> They head back to the ring,
>then brawl back outside again. Hebner takes a weak bump on the floor
>and Kane tosses Austin back in and hits the flying clothesline. Austin
>comes back and stomps him. Man, Hebner must have had another aneurism
>out there or something, he's been out forever. Mankind runs in with a
>chair, and the cage lowers again as Mick take a Stuner for the company.
>Stunner on Kane. Undertaker gets last run-in honors, swinging at Mick
>with a chair but hitting Austin (who also blades on-camera) and the ref
>wakes up to see that Kane is the new WWF champion. It should be noted
>that Austin found not one, but TWO ways to job the title without
>actually, you know, jobbing, in the same year. The other being
>Breakdown with the double-chokeslam-double-pin ending. Match was
>absolutely nothing. *1/2
I thought the workrate was good, and surprisingly, the stiffness was quite
good for a Kane match. Austin bumped around real well. About ***.
>The Bottom Line: Wildly divergent opinions on you-know-what aside,
>there was some really solid wrestling in the form of Rock-Shamrock and
>NAO-NME. Owen-XPac narrowly misses match of the night honors. And
>Foley-UT is really worth a look, if only to make your own judgment on
>it.
>
>Recommended show.
I agree. I think Summerslam is the only WWF show of 1998 to be clearly
better than this. Wrestlemania is also probably a better show, but KOTR was
certainly a great show to watch.
Justin
Matt Maher
writes
>> The Netcop Retro Rant for King of the Ring 98
>
>
>
>> chokeslam through the cage was sloppy, with Mick basically falling
>> backwards.
The chokeslam through the cage was sloppy because it was not supposed to
even happen!
It wasn't planned, Foley thought the cage would be more supportive.
--
Matt Maher
Scott Keith
Hey hey, one of my disciples wrote me to say that some guy on RSPW tore me
a new asshole over my review, which I knew would happen (witness the
donning of the asbestos underwear at the beginning), so it's nice to know
I've still got the touch. And it's nicer to know that the Mod can filter
out responses like that so I don't have to deal with them. Maybe I will,
just for fun.
But first, on with an intelligent debate...
>>Spotty but served it's purpose. **3/4
>
>The Headbangers didn't fit in too well. It was spotty; the transitions
>weren't too sound, but the pace was ok and the spots were good. **1/2
>
As I said, it served it's purpose. Rev up the crowd a bit and introduce us
to Kaientai as a unit. Perfectly Acceptable Wrestling.
>Rock had no idea what to do with Severn taking him down and mat wrestling a
>little. He was seriously clueless. I think Severn noticed this, but he just
>sucks too much to readjust his style to Rock's mid match. Ugly match. Dlo's
>Frog Splash was the saving grace. 1/2*.
>
I was eating dinner here so I could be off. I'll go with your opinion.
>This match was horrible. Taylor's spring board plancha rocked. I don't care
>if it looked a little wobbly. These are fucking WWF ropes. This is a
>springboard plancha on loose WWF ropes. The move ruled. There were small Al
>Snow chants and stuff. The storyline was fine, but the execution was
>horrible. 1/4*
>
I gave it 1/2* for the plancha alone and a sweet powerbomb Snow gave Brian
at one point.
>>- X-Pac v. Owen Hart. This was the final step down in the D-X feud for
>A little bland and not as fast paced as some would have thought. Owen and
>Waltman probably did more moves in their 3 and a half minute match at
>KOTR'94. Still, solid match with good bumps from Waltman. The finish slowed
>down the match too much. **3/4
>
Yeah, see, I didn't want to compare the two matches directly because X-Pac
and 1-2-3 Kid are totally different entities. It took me a while to adjust
to judging Sean based on what he's doing now rather than what he used to
do, and I actually find him more consistently watchable now. Before he was
VERY hit-or-miss, now it's pretty much a guaranteed **1/2 or more.
Witness WM15 as the ultimate proof of that.
>>- WWF World tag team title: The New Age Outlaws v. The New Midnight
>
>They all tried hard, but the psychology and moves were just bland. I didn't
>think the Double team moves by the Midnights were particularly great because
>there was no build to them, and I thought the execution could have been
>better. The heat was nonexistant by this match too. The end picked up a
>little, and it was still a decent match. **
>
The Outlaws got into a killer groove from about January until this match.
I don't generally factor the heat into match ratings, either, so maybe
that's why you didn't like it as much.
>>- King of the Ring: Ken Shamrock v. The Rock. HHH is doing color at
>I liked the build towards near falls in this match. The psychology was real
>good too. Rock DDT's Shamrock for a near fall. Later, he does his hurricane
>DDT for another hot near fall. Lastly, he tries the same hurricane DDT, but
>Shamrock reverses it into a Northern Lights Suplex for a really hot 2 count.
>There were too many rest holds in the finishing sequence and some of the
>moves were sloppy so ***1/4.
>
Another nice sequence had Shamrock hitting a short arm clothesline and Rock
adapting to hit one of his own. Great stuff.
Rocky became very rounded in 1998 -- he spent a bunch of time wrestling
Shamrock and got into this great psychology groove, which he then used
against HHH in the 2/3 falls match and ladder match. His brawling was weak
in the ladder match, so he then got segued into an extended feud with
Mankind, picked up a bunch of great brawling tactics, which he then used to
blow the roof off the joint against Austin in two consecutive PPV matches
against him. Now the Rock's problem is molding himself back into a
complete wrestler again by combining all the stuff he learned, which he
seems unwilling or unable to do. I'd say it's the former, since the
brawler with attitude image is the one that's gotten him the most success
and best matches. But he's still really young, so there's lots of time for
that.
>>- Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker. Mick noted in a later
>>Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
>>1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
>>and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
>
>This is wrong. Vince's fall wasn't from the same height, and it was clear
>the table was better padded for his bump; likely because they knew how to
>pad it correctly after Foley's fall.
>
Yeah, Mick's always been the company man. :)
My point there was not to denigrate the Foley bump -- it was a fabulous
bump. The point is that it's not unique and it's quite duplicatable.
>>Foley bumping does not a match make, it just makes more money for the
>>hospitals. My verdict: I'll be more generous than Herb and go *, but
>>the "Holy shit" factor from first watching it is totally gone after
>>numerous replays have killed the uniqueness of the original viewing.
>>There you have it.
>
>I can't agree. I feel the two best bumps in prowrestling history happened in
>this match.
Sure, they were terrific bumps. Wonderful bumps. ***** bumps.
But the match blew.
> The two best bumps ever. Plus, there was other good stuff. UT
>made a point to focus on Foley's injured jaw and shoulder after the
>chokeslam bump.
I didn't see it in the match. Mark seemed pretty out of it due to
medication for his ankle and in IMO, any psychology used in that match was
Mick's doing.
> The thumbtack bumps were built to well, with a couple teases
>before the actual bump.
See, the thumbtack thing is another dividing issue on this match -- I am so
not impressed with shit like that. Who the fuck wants to see thumbtacks
and all that other FMW crap introduced to North American mainstream
wrestling?
If you're an ECW fan (which you seem to be), then I can fully understand
how you might, but I don't count the "Ooohh" factor of stuff like that in
my evaluation of the match. My roommate marks out for junk like that, but
I just groaned to myself that Mick would have to sink that low in order to
draw heat.
> Then the UT chokeslam raised the thumbtack bump
>another level.
Again, thumbtack bumps don't impress me, because most garbage wrestling
involving that junk looks so excessively fake that there's no way to even
justify the need for the thumbtacks. I'm not convinced that being
chokeslammed on thumbtacks is that much more effective than a straight
chokeslam.
> Honestly, do you think the UT-Mankind wrestling sequences
>here were far worse than in their April'97 IYH match
Yes, definitely there.
> Survivor Series'96,
I haven't watched that match since the live broadcast and I wasn't paying
particularly close attention to begin with, so I'll have to pass on that
one.
>December'96 IYH match
That's uh, the Armageddon match, right? Wait, no, I think you're confused
here, because that was Terry Gordy. Perhaps you mean the October 96 match
that debuted the Buried Alive stip. Again, haven't watched it since the
live broadcast, didn't give a shit then either. I wasn't overly impressed,
though, I do remember that. But the gimmick overwhelmed the match, much
like the one at Rock Bottom between Austin and UT. So again I plead no
contest.
You could cf. with King of the Ring 96, but that was their first match so
it's not really fair to compare.
There's also Summerslam 96, which had no wrestling, but better psychology
in the brawling, IIRC. God, they all run together after a while, don't
they?
>, and assorted other matches. I don't think so. The
>workrate in this match was bad.
Right.
>But the psychology was sound, and the bumps
>were just fantastic.
No, see, again, I think Mick pulled the wool over your eyes with the
psychology thing. I mean, seriously, UT did NOTHING here. It wouldn't
surprise me if Mick called the entire match and Mark just kind of nodded
along the entire way.
> People give the 4-89 Flair vs Steamboat and 6-89
>Tsuruta-Tenryu matches ***** basically because they thought the psychology
>was amazing. They give the Misterio-Guerrera AAA matches ****1/2 + because
>of the awesome workrate. This HIAC match had the best bumps I've ever seen
>plus some decent psyche. I couldn't go lower than **** for the match.
>
Okay, here's my stance on the match and how they did it...
If the match ended after The Chokeslam, as in UT drops down and pins him,
that's ***** right there. Totally believable, makes the point, ends the
feud. Mick gets up and walks out, draws the reaction. My problem is that
they had to actually do the match, and the match felt like it was welded on
after the fact. I mean, what's the point of doing the match? Foley fell
20 feet through a table, and then got chokeslammed through the cage to the
mat below. He should be DEAD. There was no reason in the world why UT
couldn't have just pinned them there.
That's also why I'm on the accident side of the argument -- you don't do a
"chokeslam through the cage to the mat" bump at the START of a match. I
mean, it kind of makes the tombstone look inconsequential. It makes the
whole fucking match look inconsequential. He's already beaten the guy up
past the point of normal human endurance, anything else is just filling
time. That's why I didn't like it.
>And didn't Herb give it ****1/2, or was he just using Meltzer's rating
>because he was uncomfortable rating it himself?
>
>From Herb's Tidbits, July 1998, which echoes my thoughts about UT's
uselessness in this match:
"Undertaker beat Mankind in a hell in the cell cage match: A truly insane
and career-risking performance by Mankind, Mick Foley. Undertaker obviously
had no business being in the ring and basically did nothing. Foley took a
dive off the top of the extra-high cage, landing back-first on the Spanish
commentators' table. The camera missed the spot the first time, but they
had it on replay from three different angles, which tells you how
well-planned the match was. Everybody came out to check on Foley, including
Terry Funk. The commentators suggested that the match was over. A lot of
time passed as the doctors came out, the cage went up a bit to make room
for a stretcher (with Undertaker still standing on top of the cage,
obviously not coming down because he had to minimize his movement), and
Foley was taken away. Presumably, they spoke to him about whether he
thought he could continue the match, and, being insane, he did. This time,
he climbed back up to the top of the cage. Earlier on, it was clear that
one patch of the cage was loosely fastened. Undertaker carefully walked on
the metal framework of the cage rather than on the mesh. Foley took a choke
slam, pretty much doing everything himself, through the mesh and into the
ring, the second insane bump of the "match." Everybody ran into the cage to
check on Foley again. Undertaker lowered himself into the cage, the only
risk of the night for him, as he had to drop a couple of feet to stand in
the ring, and hobbled noticeably because of it. Terry took a choke slam
that looked weak because Undertaker could not support his weight.
Undertaker did a plancha, hitting the cage, in a spot that looked stupid.
But even here, he could avoid landing on his bad ankle. Foley eventually
filled the ring with thumb tacks and took two bumps into them before the
tombstone finish. With intros, 28 minutes (lots of dead time early on, in
particular). This was a tremendously memorable spectacle because of the
stunt man insanity of Foley, but it's impossible to rate as a wrestling
match. In close to a half-hour, there were two or three moves. I've seen a
few people call Foley "courageous" because of this performance. Yeah, with
Austin & Undertaker both unable to do much, the WWF needed somebody to
"make" the PPV and Foley definitely did that."
The next week, he noted that Meltzer gave it ****3/4. I note that * is
more generous than Herb because "I can't really rate garbage matches"
generally means "I really hated this match and won't bother to rate it"
with him.
>>Breakdown with the double-chokeslam-double-pin ending. Match was
>>absolutely nothing. *1/2
>
>I thought the workrate was good, and surprisingly, the stiffness was quite
>good for a Kane match. Austin bumped around real well. About ***.
>
I thought it was good back when I saw it, but time has not been kind to it.
Justin Crast
Scott Keith wrote in message <3774ad62.66877691@news>...
>>>- X-Pac v. Owen Hart. This was the final step down in the D-X feud for
>
>>A little bland and not as fast paced as some would have thought. Owen and
>>Waltman probably did more moves in their 3 and a half minute match at
>>KOTR'94. Still, solid match with good bumps from Waltman. The finish
slowed
>>down the match too much. **3/4
>>
>
>Yeah, see, I didn't want to compare the two matches directly because X-Pac
>and 1-2-3 Kid are totally different entities. It took me a while to adjust
>to judging Sean based on what he's doing now rather than what he used to
>do, and I actually find him more consistently watchable now. Before he was
>VERY hit-or-miss, now it's pretty much a guaranteed **1/2 or more.
Yeah, I agree with that. He has shown growth. He doesn't try things that he
can only hit "every so often" so blown spots are almost nonexistant in his
matches now. I think anything in the *** range is a good rating for the
match.
>Witness WM15 as the ultimate proof of that.
No kidding. Carrying Shane McMahon, a nonwrestler, to a good match. Some
people really started noticing how good Xpac was right around this.
>>>- WWF World tag team title: The New Age Outlaws v. The New Midnight
>>
>>They all tried hard, but the psychology and moves were just bland. I
didn't
>>think the Double team moves by the Midnights were particularly great
because
>>there was no build to them, and I thought the execution could have been
>>better. The heat was nonexistant by this match too. The end picked up a
>>little, and it was still a decent match. **
>>
>
>The Outlaws got into a killer groove from about January until this match.
>I don't generally factor the heat into match ratings, either, so maybe
>that's why you didn't like it as much.
That could be why. I haven't watched this in awhile, and I might have just
been in a strange mood while watching the match.
>>>- King of the Ring: Ken Shamrock v. The Rock. HHH is doing color at
>
>>I liked the build towards near falls in this match. The psychology was
real
>>good too. Rock DDT's Shamrock for a near fall. Later, he does his
hurricane
>>DDT for another hot near fall. Lastly, he tries the same hurricane DDT,
but
>>Shamrock reverses it into a Northern Lights Suplex for a really hot 2
count.
>>There were too many rest holds in the finishing sequence and some of the
>>moves were sloppy so ***1/4.
>>
>
>Another nice sequence had Shamrock hitting a short arm clothesline and Rock
>adapting to hit one of his own. Great stuff.
I agree.
>Rocky became very rounded in 1998 -- he spent a bunch of time wrestling
>Shamrock and got into this great psychology groove, which he then used
>against HHH in the 2/3 falls match and ladder match. His brawling was weak
>in the ladder match, so he then got segued into an extended feud with
>Mankind, picked up a bunch of great brawling tactics, which he then used to
>blow the roof off the joint against Austin in two consecutive PPV matches
>against him. Now the Rock's problem is molding himself back into a
>complete wrestler again by combining all the stuff he learned, which he
>seems unwilling or unable to do. I'd say it's the former, since the
>brawler with attitude image is the one that's gotten him the most success
>and best matches. But he's still really young, so there's lots of time for
>that.
I hadn't really thought of all this, with Rocky learning skills in specific
feuds, but it makes sense. His psychology has kind of dropped in favor for
the brawling. I hate it when he uses the Rock Bottom as a reversal and poses
for 5 seconds. Does the opponent suddenly get knocked out from Rock putting
him in the hold? Also, Rock's selling leaves a lot to be desired.
>>>- Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker. Mick noted in a later
>
>>>Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
>>>1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
>>>and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
>>
>>This is wrong. Vince's fall wasn't from the same height, and it was clear
>>the table was better padded for his bump; likely because they knew how to
>>pad it correctly after Foley's fall.
>>
>
>Yeah, Mick's always been the company man. :)
Sure has.
>My point there was not to denigrate the Foley bump -- it was a fabulous
>bump. The point is that it's not unique and it's quite duplicatable.
Understood.
>>>Foley bumping does not a match make, it just makes more money for the
>>>hospitals. My verdict: I'll be more generous than Herb and go *, but
>>>the "Holy shit" factor from first watching it is totally gone after
>>>numerous replays have killed the uniqueness of the original viewing.
>>>There you have it.
>>
>>I can't agree. I feel the two best bumps in prowrestling history happened
in
>>this match.
>
>Sure, they were terrific bumps. Wonderful bumps. ***** bumps.
>
>But the match blew.
I think the bumps were so mind blowing that some of the shortcomings in the
match don't factor into the match as a whole as much. The great bumps
overshadow the bad workrate, for instance.
>> The two best bumps ever. Plus, there was other good stuff. UT
>>made a point to focus on Foley's injured jaw and shoulder after the
>>chokeslam bump.
>
>I didn't see it in the match. Mark seemed pretty out of it due to
>medication for his ankle and in IMO, any psychology used in that match was
>Mick's doing.
I see, but it's still some psychology I dug, even if it was just Mick
installing it.
>> The thumbtack bumps were built to well, with a couple teases
>>before the actual bump.
>
>See, the thumbtack thing is another dividing issue on this match -- I am so
>not impressed with shit like that. Who the fuck wants to see thumbtacks
>and all that other FMW crap introduced to North American mainstream
>wrestling?
Well, I don't think these type of thumbtack bumps can "injure" a person. I
think they can "hurt" a person in the same way blading can. So I don't look
down on this as some sort of vampire-type of bump. And I think the thumbtack
bump had meaning. They teased it, they built up to it, they made it
*important*. They didn't just do some thumbtack bumps and place no important
on the bump like ECW and FMW wrestlers will do.
>If you're an ECW fan (which you seem to be), then I can fully understand
>how you might, but I don't count the "Ooohh" factor of stuff like that in
>my evaluation of the match. My roommate marks out for junk like that, but
>I just groaned to myself that Mick would have to sink that low in order to
>draw heat.
I think the difference between Foley and, say, Hak, is that Hak will take
out the thumbtacks and immediately use them as a bump. With Foley, he uses
psychology to make the bump have more meaning. That's what everyone loves
about Foley, he can make these bumps more interesting. It's something
Astushi Onita used to do. It's something guys like Mitsuhiro Matsunaga and
Hak didn't do.
>> Then the UT chokeslam raised the thumbtack bump
>>another level.
>
>Again, thumbtack bumps don't impress me, because most garbage wrestling
>involving that junk looks so excessively fake that there's no way to even
>justify the need for the thumbtacks. I'm not convinced that being
>chokeslammed on thumbtacks is that much more effective than a straight
>chokeslam.
Most people will believe that the thumbtacks add a different dimension. I
guess this is just of question of what the person believes and their
preferences.
>> Honestly, do you think the UT-Mankind wrestling sequences
>>here were far worse than in their April'97 IYH match
>
>Yes, definitely there.
>
>> Survivor Series'96,
>
>I haven't watched that match since the live broadcast and I wasn't paying
>particularly close attention to begin with, so I'll have to pass on that
>one.
>
>>December'96 IYH match
>
>That's uh, the Armageddon match, right? Wait, no, I think you're confused
>here, because that was Terry Gordy. Perhaps you mean the October 96 match
>that debuted the Buried Alive stip. Again, haven't watched it since the
>live broadcast, didn't give a shit then either. I wasn't overly impressed,
>though, I do remember that. But the gimmick overwhelmed the match, much
>like the one at Rock Bottom between Austin and UT. So again I plead no
>contest.
Yeah, the October one. I was thinking of the December'98 Buried Alive match
with UT, and just thought 12-96 for some reason.
>You could cf. with King of the Ring 96, but that was their first match so
>it's not really fair to compare.
>
>There's also Summerslam 96, which had no wrestling, but better psychology
>in the brawling, IIRC. God, they all run together after a while, don't
>they?
Yeah, guess I should rewatch some of these matches to get a better feel for
the Mankind-UT matches. I'm going on mainly memory. I could easily have had
a wrong opinion on the KOTR vs Other matches comparison.
>>, and assorted other matches. I don't think so. The
>>workrate in this match was bad.
>
>Right.
>
>>But the psychology was sound, and the bumps
>>were just fantastic.
>
>No, see, again, I think Mick pulled the wool over your eyes with the
>psychology thing. I mean, seriously, UT did NOTHING here. It wouldn't
>surprise me if Mick called the entire match and Mark just kind of nodded
>along the entire way.
I don't mind if UT just followed Mick. It was still psychology. More power
to Foley for carrying such a useless shit.
>> People give the 4-89 Flair vs Steamboat and 6-89
>>Tsuruta-Tenryu matches ***** basically because they thought the psychology
>>was amazing. They give the Misterio-Guerrera AAA matches ****1/2 + because
>>of the awesome workrate. This HIAC match had the best bumps I've ever seen
>>plus some decent psyche. I couldn't go lower than **** for the match.
>>
>
>Okay, here's my stance on the match and how they did it...
>
>If the match ended after The Chokeslam, as in UT drops down and pins him,
>that's ***** right there. Totally believable, makes the point, ends the
>feud. Mick gets up and walks out, draws the reaction. My problem is that
>they had to actually do the match, and the match felt like it was welded on
>after the fact. I mean, what's the point of doing the match? Foley fell
>20 feet through a table, and then got chokeslammed through the cage to the
>mat below. He should be DEAD. There was no reason in the world why UT
>couldn't have just pinned them there.
This is good logic. The two big bumps weren't built to well. And the two
bumps should have killed him using prowrestling logic. It's the same flaw
people have with Misawa defeating Kobashi with an elbow smash after Kobashi
kicks out of the Tiger Driver'91. I understand what you're saying.
>That's also why I'm on the accident side of the argument -- you don't do a
>"chokeslam through the cage to the mat" bump at the START of a match. I
>mean, it kind of makes the tombstone look inconsequential. It makes the
>whole fucking match look inconsequential. He's already beaten the guy up
>past the point of normal human endurance, anything else is just filling
>time. That's why I didn't like it.
I think the bump was planned. A poster brought up this subject a little
while ago and had a good point. Look at the announcer's reactions to Foley
going through the cage, and Owen falling from the ceiling. The announcers
were not saddened by Foley's bump as they were Owen's. They didn't insist
"this wasn't planned" with the Foley bump vs Owen's fall. They glorified
Foley's fall; replaying it numerous times. They didn't do this with the
legit fall of Owen's. So I think the chokeslam through the cage bump was
planned.
I see. I recall Herb saying he will just go with Meltzer's rating with
garbage matches because he dislikes them so much he can't give an accurate
rating. Or he refuses to rate it due to his dislike.
>>>Breakdown with the double-chokeslam-double-pin ending. Match was
>>>absolutely nothing. *1/2
>>
>>I thought the workrate was good, and surprisingly, the stiffness was quite
>>good for a Kane match. Austin bumped around real well. About ***.
>>
>
>I thought it was good back when I saw it, but time has not been kind to it.
I suppose if I watched it again I might think the same.
Justin
Todd Gerth
on without me....
Scott Keith wrote:
> You don't cuddle with Justin Crast, you strap yourself in and FEEL THE G'S!
>
> >>- Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker. Mick noted in a later
>
> >>Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
> >>1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
> >>and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
> >
> >This is wrong. Vince's fall wasn't from the same height, and it was clear
> >the table was better padded for his bump; likely because they knew how to
> >pad it correctly after Foley's fall.
>
> My point there was not to denigrate the Foley bump -- it was a fabulous
> bump. The point is that it's not unique and it's quite duplicatable.
It's not unique? Name another bump like it. (the Vince bump certainly was not
on the same level) Duplicatable? Perhaps, but doesnt innovation count for
something?
todd
--
"Crack that whip! Licorice whip!" -- Waylon Smithers
Tribal Prophet
>while ago and had a good point. Look at the announcer's reactions to Foley
>going through the cage, and Owen falling from the ceiling. The announcers
>were not saddened by Foley's bump as they were Owen's. They didn't insist
>"this wasn't planned" with the Foley bump vs Owen's fall. They glorified
>Foley's fall; replaying it numerous times. They didn't do this with the
>legit fall of Owen's. So I think the chokeslam through the cage bump was
>planned.
There's a fairly large difference when you remember that Owen *died*
from his fall (it wasn't a "bump", as you put it, in part of a "King
of Big-Bumps match" like Foley's was. It was a stunt that went
wrong), and if not dead before he left the ring (which I believe
Lawler at one time said he was) they were doing heart massages on him
in the ring, and they don't do that unless your heart's stopped, so he
was probably dead before leaving the ring. Add to that the fact that
the Foley fall was a move being done on camera, and Owen was something
that happened off-air where it was blatently obvious the guy was going
to die, and I think it's easy to see why their reactions would be
different.
Foley took a big fall, but I don't think anyone would expect him to
die from it, especially when he took a larger one only minutes
earlier.
Tribal Prophet
The Greatest Lines in the History of our Sport:
Tony S: The dancing fools. The dancing dildos.
Tenay (proudly): They all fit.
Tony S (acknowledging): They all fit.
- Monday Nitro, July 13th, 1998
Todd Gerth
> - Hell in a Cell II: Mankind v. The Undertaker. [...] So UT tosses Mick
> off the top of the cage onto the Spanish table, and to be brutally honest,
> it lacks the same impact as when you're bombed and not expecting it.
That certainly cant come as any surprise.
> I mean, it was a nice bump and all, but there wasn't anything to build up
> to it.
True.
> And on second viewing, Mick guides himself down by holding onto the cage
> as he falls. I mean, for full points on the dive, you have to free fall.
> The judges at the
> Olympics wouldn't allow a dive where the diver grabs the board to guide
> himself, would they? Anyway, all jesting aside...
That was jesting?
> Okay, now for the major criticisms and why this is NOT a
> ****3/4 MOTYC.
>
> - The actual moves done between the bumps were not well executed. The
> chokeslam through the cage was sloppy, with Mick basically falling
> backwards. UT did a pretty perfunctory tope,
He *was* going headfirst into the cage. I can cut him some slack. A
Psicosis bump would be nice, but you cant take off points b/c it didnt
happen.
> - There was only a few actual wrestling moves done -- Legdrop, DDT,
> Mandible Claw, chokeslam, tombstone. UT-Shawn, the closest WWF match to
> compare with, had smaller bumps by Shawn, but more of them and more
> intense ones, with better wrestling and better brawling in between them.
Badd Blood's bumps were more intense? I disagree with your judgement call.
> - The chokeslam bump was an accident.
I disagree. I know Mick said it was, but he wasnt under oath.
> - Undertaker was working on a broken ankle and was very limited in his
> mobility.
What does his ankle have to do with that? :)
> Anyway, history has already judged this match as Match of the Year for
> 1998, but I thought Austin-Foley from Over the Edge was a better brawl,
I agree.
> and Vince took just as good a bump at St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
Disagree. Look where Vince's feet were when he took his bump and compare
that to where Mick's were. About 7 feet of difference, if memory serves.
Plus Mick had to flip in mid-air, whereas Vince simply fell back. Dont get
me wrong, Vince's bump was nice, but I just can't see how it's equal to
Foley's.
> Foley bumping does not a match make, it just makes more money for the
> hospitals. My verdict: I'll be more generous than Herb and go *, but
> the "Holy shit" factor from first watching it is totally gone after
> numerous replays have killed the uniqueness of the original viewing.
If you hear a great song a million times, you might not enjoy it as much as
you had. That doesnt make it a worse song. I cant really imagine rating
this on a star system. It obviously accomplished what it set out to do.
It's just that what it was trying to do wasnt to be a traditional wrestling
match. Granted, you could say the same thing about Sable's evening gown
matches, but I wouldn't rate them on a star system either.
todd
--
Jest funnier
Andrew Milgate
> physically impossible for Austin to make Kane bleed, the result wasn't
> really in doubt, although the internet was in denial about that fact for
> the weeks leading up to it.
Didn't Kane have the alternate suit on with the left arm covered aswell?
Watching it a few months later, I thought it may have been around the first
time that UT ended up in the Kane suit on RAW, and needing a reason for
Kane to have both arms covered. I guess with the thumbtack spots before
hand they didnt want to take any chances.
--
Andrew
"No I am not paranoid, cause I can say without a trace of irony - you're
all out to get me!" - Dave Foley, Newsradio.
John Naugle
>who keep track of these things, Rock is using the
>version of his music from WWF The Music 3.
Actually, I just was watching my KOTR '98 tape, and this is BEFORE the
vol. 3 version. It doesn't have enough of the Rock's sayings in it. (HE
talks more often in the volume 3 version. :)
Excuse me while I go ponder my lack of a life...
Visit my WWF home page at:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/4003
Be sure to check out my themes section!
Matt Maher
SPAMDAMMIT.escape.ca> writes
>>I think the bump was planned. A poster brought up this subject a little
>>while ago and had a good point. Look at the announcer's reactions to Foley
>>going through the cage, and Owen falling from the ceiling. The announcers
>>were not saddened by Foley's bump as they were Owen's. They didn't insist
>>"this wasn't planned" with the Foley bump vs Owen's fall. They glorified
>>Foley's fall; replaying it numerous times. They didn't do this with the
>>legit fall of Owen's. So I think the chokeslam through the cage bump was
>>planned.
>
>from his fall (it wasn't a "bump", as you put it, in part of a "King
>of Big-Bumps match" like Foley's was. It was a stunt that went
>wrong), and if not dead before he left the ring (which I believe
>Lawler at one time said he was) they were doing heart massages on him
>in the ring, and they don't do that unless your heart's stopped, so he
>was probably dead before leaving the ring. Add to that the fact that
>the Foley fall was a move being done on camera, and Owen was something
>that happened off-air where it was blatently obvious the guy was going
>to die, and I think it's easy to see why their reactions would be
>different.
>
>Foley took a big fall, but I don't think anyone would expect him to
>die from it, especially when he took a larger one only minutes
>earlier.
>
>
>Tribal Prophet
>
Foley has stated himself that the fall through the cage was not planned
and I have no reason not to believe him. What would be the point in him
lying about it?
When Foley fell off the cage and through the table he dislocated his
shoulder and bruised a kidney. He said himself he could have died from
it if he fell awkward.
When he went through the cage he just fell. He didn't fall in any
particular way, he just fell. The top of the cage was weaker than usual
- we saw that when The Undertaker put his foot through it.
--
Matt Maher
"There is never redemption, any fool can regret yesterday"
- Richey James Edwards (Archives Of Pain)
Matthew M Monin
Speaking under the assumption that the through the cage bump was
planned....
>
> Foley has stated himself that the fall through the cage was not planned
> and I have no reason not to believe him. What would be the point in him
> lying about it?
To add another page to his legacy. "Dude...remember when Foley
got chokeslammed on the HitC cage and it roof accidently broke!? The
guy's hardcore!"
> When Foley fell off the cage and through the table he dislocated his
> shoulder and bruised a kidney. He said himself he could have died from
> it if he fell awkward.
See above. Not saying he's lying...but definite opportunity for
exaggeration.
> When he went through the cage he just fell. He didn't fall in any
> particular way, he just fell. The top of the cage was weaker than usual
> - we saw that when The Undertaker put his foot through it.
>
Yes...weaker than usual for the planned spot.
Matthew M. Monin
mmm...@acsu.buffalo.edu
Matt Maher
du>, Matthew M Monin <mmm...@acsu.buffalo.edu> writes
>
> Speaking under the assumption that the through the cage bump was
>planned....
>
>>
>> Foley has stated himself that the fall through the cage was not planned
>> and I have no reason not to believe him. What would be the point in him
>> lying about it?
>
> To add another page to his legacy. "Dude...remember when Foley
>got chokeslammed on the HitC cage and it roof accidently broke!? The
>guy's hardcore!"
>
>
>> When Foley fell off the cage and through the table he dislocated his
>> shoulder and bruised a kidney. He said himself he could have died from
>> it if he fell awkward.
>
> See above. Not saying he's lying...but definite opportunity for
>exaggeration.
I've seen alot of Foley's matches in WWF,WCW,ECW,IWA etc and he does not
need to exxaggerate things or add to his 'legacy' *at all*.
Even if it was planned it was still one hell of a bump, but I think the
'add to legacy' idea is an empty one.
>
>> When he went through the cage he just fell. He didn't fall in any
>> particular way, he just fell. The top of the cage was weaker than usual
>> - we saw that when The Undertaker put his foot through it.
>>
> Yes...weaker than usual for the planned spot.
>
> Matthew M. Monin
The area where The Undertaker's foot went through was far away from the
spot where Foley fell. If it was planned, a designated spot would be
given for the action to happen.
Tribal Prophet
>planned....
>
>>
>> Foley has stated himself that the fall through the cage was not planned
>> and I have no reason not to believe him. What would be the point in him
>> lying about it?
>
> To add another page to his legacy. "Dude...remember when Foley
>got chokeslammed on the HitC cage and it roof accidently broke!? The
>guy's hardcore!"
I think he'd have to be more hardcore to PLAN to fall through the
cage. Foley's legacy in that match is from the first fall, the second
just proves how tough he is, planned or not.
No one's thinking he's a wuss for planning the first fall, so why
would they think any different for the second? Besides, watch them
walk arond the top of that cage, the whole thing was loosely put
together, not just the one part.
>> When Foley fell off the cage and through the table he dislocated his
>> shoulder and bruised a kidney. He said himself he could have died from
>> it if he fell awkward.
>
> See above. Not saying he's lying...but definite opportunity for
>exaggeration.
Wasn't he in the hospital for a few days? If he was going for a
"hardcore rep" from that match, then why wouldn't he say that it
didn't hurt at all, and he's tough enough to take it? If you look at
him moving around, you can tell he's not well (the whole spitting up
blood from the teeth that were knocked out did it for me).
>> When he went through the cage he just fell. He didn't fall in any
>> particular way, he just fell. The top of the cage was weaker than usual
>> - we saw that when The Undertaker put his foot through it.
>>
> Yes...weaker than usual for the planned spot.
Problem with this comment is that the "planned spot" as you put it was
on the other side of the cage...