Torvill and Dean SHOULD have won GOLD!
Daniel A. Brown (Bernardston ES)
Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
competitors.
Just my two sense!
-DAN
--
Daniel A. Brown dbr...@k12.ucs.umass.edu
Laughing Bear Photography Shelburne Falls, Mass.
*********"Support the Right of the People to Keep and Arm Bears!"*********
Gabriel G Tsui
>
>Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
>were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
>competitors.
>
they said they did too many lifts. I must have been blind. There was
only one time I thought they might have done something illegal -- that
somersault thing near the end. However, they still got stiffed. Their
program was by far the most technical and entertaining. However,
Gritschuk and Platov did a good job as well. I was especially turned off
by Usova and Zhulin's attempt at a "cute" program. (BTW, does anyone else
find her as repulsive as I do? That hair!!!)
Torvill and Dean will be skating their memorable "Bolero" program for
their exhibition performance.
>Just my two sense!
>
>-DAN
My two CENTS as well.
(Sorry Dan, I couldn't resist. I once thought the phrase "for all
intents and purposes" was "for all intensive purposes" until my history
professor introduced me to her bright red pen.)
Gabe
gt...@sas.upenn.edu
Bruce R Jaffe
: Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
: were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
: competitors.
: Just my two sense!
: -DAN
I wholeheartedly agree! The TV commentator said that the judges may
have felt that some of their "lifts" were "jumps" and therefore
exceeded the legal limit, causing point deductions. By comparison to
T&D, I thought the other ice dancing couples were lacking in charisma.
If there's any justice in the Olympics, perhaps it's that T&D will go
on to earn millions on the pro circuit. I certainly hope to see more
of their brilliant style on the ice.
--Bruce
Bruce R. Jaffe
ja...@panix.com
Rich Zinkus
> Daniel A. Brown (Bernardston ES) (dbr...@k12.ucs.umass.edu) wrote:
>
> : Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
> : were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
> : competitors.........
>
> I wholeheartedly agree! The TV commentator said that the judges may
> have felt that some of their "lifts" were "jumps" and therefore
> exceeded the legal limit, causing point deductions. By comparison to
> T&D, I thought the other ice dancing couples were lacking in charisma.
>
> If there's any justice in the Olympics, perhaps it's that T&D will go
> on to earn millions on the pro circuit. I certainly hope to see more
> of their brilliant style on the ice.
>
Frankly, I don't think the judges could stand to see a comeback couple,
especially one that had been professional, perform better than the "young
kids." I think in their own minds Torvill and Dean had already lost.
Being that the judging is subjective, it provides an opportunity for the
judges to get away with ranking Torvill and Dean lower than the others.
(Looking at the Russian couple that won, they were apart from each other on
the ice for more than 5 seconds during their routine, which should've
netted them deductions but didn't.)
Wasn't ice skating/dancing one of the last events to allow professionals to
compete in the Olympics? What was the reason for the holdout? It was
allowed in basketball and hockey; I'm not sure about the other events.
Bottom line is it doesn't matter who competes, pro or am, if you're the
best - you're the best. It's just unfortunate that the judges let their
own progress be impeded by tradition.
Rich
Judith L. Hardin
I AGREE!!!
Last night reminded me why I stopped watching figure skating. It makes me
want to break things.
--
Judi Hardin | Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
ms...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu | Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho
haber...@uproar.enet.dec.com
Absolutely....couldn't agree more.
I watched the TV coverage last night right from the start, saw *all* the
routines and can quite honestly say that I thought that Torvill & Dean's
was easily the best routine from the viewer's point of view. It was easily
the smoothest, most professional, most fluent, most exciting and certainly
the most entertaining of the whole lot.
Let's face it, the crowd certainly thought they were the best and that they
should have won - and that should count for something.
Personally, I think the judges knew that the crowd was going to be behind
them from a nostalgia point of view, and over-compensated with their marking.
Shame.
Cheers,
Mike
P.S.
These are of course my own views and opinions, and I'm certainly not a
world-renowned authority on ice dancing. :-)
Judy Colwell
CRZ...@email.mot.com (Rich Zinkus) writes:
>In article <2kc8f3$r...@panix.com>, ja...@panix.com (Bruce R Jaffe) wrote:
>
>>
>> : Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
>> : were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
>
>> I wholeheartedly agree! The TV commentator said that the judges may
>>
>> on to earn millions on the pro circuit. I certainly hope to see more
>> of their brilliant style on the ice.
>
>best - you're the best. It's just unfortunate that the judges let their
>own progress be impeded by tradition.
>
>Rich
I Agree! They were spectacular, and they were robbed! I, too, hope
to see more of them beyond their Bolero next Saturday. Hurrah for T
& D.
(Does anyone have any clue whether all this bbs support for them
will ever get to them somehow? I sure hope they know how much
support they have out here.)
Judy Colwell
ju...@forsythe.stanford.edu
Chopped Liver
Torvill and Dean were robbed and abused by the judges for two reasons, IMHO.
One, they had the audiacity to come back after 10 years and perform with the
same perfection the showed in Sarajevo. Two, they dared perform a routine
that the judges hadn't seen before.
Even assuming that there was some technical infractions in there program, for
the Russians (Who&WHo) to score higher on artistic impression (such a
frivolous and disjointed performance) is unbelievable.
After I calmed down and thought about it last night, I realized that T&D really
had won. Theirs will be the performace that is remembered most when people
think back on these Winter Games, not those which were scored higher.
Charlie
the gold medal team to score higher in artistic impression
Richard N Kitchen
In a previous article, gt...@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Gabriel G Tsui) says:
>In article <1994Feb22....@k12.ucs.umass.edu> dbr...@k12.ucs.umass.edu (Daniel A. Brown (Bernardston ES)) writes:
>>
>>Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
>>were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
>>competitors.
>>
>They got robbed. Apparently the judges deducted points from them because
>they said they did too many lifts. I must have been blind. There was
>only one time I thought they might have done something illegal -- that
>somersault thing near the end. However, they still got stiffed. Their
>program was by far the most technical and entertaining.
I disagree, humbly. To my eyes, they were very *flashy*, lots of lifts
and weird moves, but their side-by-side skating was just plain. they
didn't do a lot of great footwork.
>However, Gritschuk and Platov did a good job as well. I was especially
>turned off by Usova and Zhulin's attempt at a "cute" program.
Again, I disagree. U&Z should have won gold at Albertville, and should
have won gold at Lillehammer. Their program was much the more
difficult, as far as I am concerned. At least, they wore different
outfits from teh Europeans, in an attempt not to look *too* "cute."
>(BTW, does anyone else find her as repulsive as I do? That hair!!!)
I think Maia Usova is exotically beautiful.
--
Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
"I can't function with this guillotine on my back."
--Margo Cody, "Black Tie Affair"
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
>
>were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
>competitors.
>Just my two sense!
>-DAN
>Laughing Bear Photography Shelburne Falls, Mass.
OK!!! I was waiting for this post.. And I came prepared... Of course, I admit
my favorability of Russian pairs... but this one was not EVEN CLOSE!!!
Not to be judgemental, here we ago:
I contacted 3 former USSR pairs ice-scating judges, 1 from Russia <judged on
international level> , another from Russia <judjed on local level> and
1 from Ukraine <judged on republican level>. I also contacted one of my
friends from Spain, whose own friend is a pair scating judge from Madrid
<international level>... here's how they scored the final dance and why:
Torvill/Dean Usova/Zhulin Winners
Russia <international> 3 1 2
Russia <local> 3 1 2
Ukraine <republican> 3 1 2
Spain <international> 3 2 1
The summary of the comments is as follows:
1. All judges agreed that techical-wise Usova/Zhulin were the best. All also
agreed that Torvill/Dean were at least a level below the technical difficulty
of the 2 Russian pairs.
2. The top 3 judges thought Usova/Zhulin performance to be the best
artistically while the Spanish judge preferred the other Russian pair <sorry
I forgot their names at the moment>.
All said that Torvill/Dean were very very very slow in comparison with
the other 2 pairs.
And here's how the official Olympic judges rated the scate:
Torvill/Dean Usova/Z Winners
Russia 3 2 1
Great Britain 1 3 2
Ukraine 2 1 3
Belorussia 2 1 3
Chech Republic 3 2 1
Canada 3 2 1
Australia<?> 3 1 2
whoever else 3 2 1
To anyone who dares suggest the Russian pair won unfairly, I suggest you look
at the only judge who put Torvill/Dean first and think about it....
Also look at WHO put the Winners on the top spot of the podium: the
Russian judge can't be percieved as partial, because he/she could have
voted for any of the 2 pairs, and Tor/Dean had already lost by the time
the Winners scated. Ukraine+Belorussia, the only 2 former Soviet judges went
against the Winners. Canada and Australia, who traditionally favor English and
American scaters voted for the Russian winners!!!
As I was watching the whole thing, I was routing for Usova and Zhulin and
both of my parents were pro-Torvill&Dean. They too admitted Tor/Dean were slow.
So please, 8 out of nine judges did not see T&D as the best. Saying they were,
is like saying KC should have played Sf49's in the S-bowl, because it was
the choice you wanted to see... Competition is about being the best. Torvill
and Dean were not on that night.
BTW, just an interesting thing, as the Winner pair finished scating, they
still didn't know who won. The guy kept saying "We are first", while the girl
just sat there... Then the coach of Usova/Zhulin indicated to them that they
won, and the girl said in sheer disbelief, "She made a mistake. She miscalculated
" and started crying....
And oh, I thought Usova and Zhulin were the best too :)
Gene Y.Kholodenko
Angela C. Lukach
Maybe it's just me - but were we watching the *same* competition?
I was so sure that T & D were going to win gold just for being
there that I told my bf on the phone yesterday that I was going
home to watch the coronation - he had already heard a news
report and laughed and said he wouldn't tell me what happened.
T & D did a lousy program - rehashes of "Mack & Mabe" and "Barnum"
from the early 80's, combined with some of the "Missing" program
Chris Dean choreographed for the Duschenays. They *did* exceed
the allowed number of assisted jumps *and* lifts both - and the
only difficult element in the whole program was the footwork
sequence near the end!
They got *exactly* what they deserved.
angie
<before you start flaming - i skated for 20 years - did singles,
dance *and* pairs - *and* produced skating shows!>
--
Jay Geertsen
> from the early 80's, combined with some of the "Missing" program Chris
> Dean choreographed for the Duschenays. They *did* exceed the allowed
> number of assisted jumps *and* lifts both - and the only difficult
> element in the whole program was the footwork sequence near the end!
Well, given this perspective, I guess I didn't enjoy their program the
most after all. :-)
> They got *exactly* what they deserved.
Gee, I guess I _hated_ it then. :-) :-)
> <before you start flaming - i skated for 20 years - did singles, dance
> *and* pairs - *and* produced skating shows!>
Golly, what a _fool_ I was for enjoying their program! :-) :-) :-)
Seriously, I'm obviously no authority on ice skating (let alone ice
dancing), but if it was a question of which couple I'd pay to go see,
T&D would be it.
It makes sense that if a sport has rules, you don't award the gold medal
to the participants who ignore or break them. In other words, you don't
declare the person who scores a hole-in-one to be the winner of a ski
jumping event. Regardless, it's still frustrating to enjoy a program so
much, only to see it marked down because of apparent "technicalities".
I doubt very much that we've witnessed the beginning of the end for ice
dancing. Regardless, what occurred Monday night further erodes my
interest in who "wins" such events. The gold medal or top award always
seems to be given only to the "winners" instead of to the "best". My
perception is that for any given ice skating/dancing event, those two
designations rarely correspond to the same people. :-)
--
Jay "An authority on what I like" Geertsen
U15...@uicvm.uic.edu
Torvil & Dean were not awarded the gold. Musing about the subject,
it seems that ice dancing differs from other olympic events in that
it is more art than sport, more subjective than objective. I feel that
T & D have invented, and continue to re-invent the ART of ice dancing.
It almost seems that they are beyond the olympics. Somehow, having their
performances rated by judges trivializes their talent. I hope that many
videos and films are created and preserved to be passed on to future
generations that want a record of their achievements. There is a VHS
tape of their dancing and careers that is very beautiful. I hope this
lastest dance is added to the visual record. I'd like to have a laser
disc compendium. I'd add it to my ballet collection.
Tom Ascher Internet: u15...@uicvm.uic.edu
University of Illinois at Chicago Phone: (312) 413-3665
Daniel Banyas
|>
|>
|> Maybe it's just me - but were we watching the *same* competition?
|>
|> I was so sure that T & D were going to win gold just for being
|> there that I told my bf on the phone yesterday that I was going
|> home to watch the coronation - he had already heard a news
|> report and laughed and said he wouldn't tell me what happened.
|>
|> T & D did a lousy program - rehashes of "Mack & Mabe" and "Barnum"
|> from the early 80's, combined with some of the "Missing" program
|> Chris Dean choreographed for the Duschenays. They *did* exceed
|> the allowed number of assisted jumps *and* lifts both - and the
|> only difficult element in the whole program was the footwork
|> sequence near the end!
Okay - I need a clarification on this one. According to the CBS
announcers (Tracy Wilson and Verne Lundquist - but mostly Tracy)
in the final program there can only be 5 lifts, but an unlimited
number of assisted jumps. Her point was that some judges might
have counted some of the assisted jumps as lifts and penalized
the pair (for example, the final move where Dean tossed Torvill
over his back. To me, that seemed like she jumped, he bumped, and
she went over - an assisted jump.)
Now you say there's a limit on the assisted jumps, too. Is that
true?
I still think T&D's program was more compelling, interesting and
fun to watch than the others. But I know that has nothing to do
with judging.
--
Danno - da...@is.morgan.com -
David R. Villegas
>They got robbed. Apparently the judges deducted points from them because
>they said they did too many lifts. I must have been blind. There was
I also feel that they got robbed. The judges also didn't deduct points from
the gold medalists for being separated 2 seconds longer than allowed.
Was it just my imagination or did CBS cut short the coverage of the medal
ceremony?
Anyway, on to my real question: What's the technical difference between a lift
and an assisted jump? T&D had a bunch of the latter but I thought they only
had 5 lifts.
Angela C. Lukach
In a previous article, j...@sde.hp.com (Jay Geertsen) says:
>> They got *exactly* what they deserved.
>
>Gee, I guess I _hated_ it then. :-) :-)
>
>> <before you start flaming - i skated for 20 years - did singles, dance
>> *and* pairs - *and* produced skating shows!>
>
>Golly, what a _fool_ I was for enjoying their program! :-) :-) :-)
>
>Seriously, I'm obviously no authority on ice skating (let alone ice
>dancing), but if it was a question of which couple I'd pay to go see,
>T&D would be it.
Jay -
I *have* paid to see T & D skate! They are *always* entertaining
and put on a good show - but in terms of Olympic class judging,
they were NOT the best skaters last night.
I really enjoyed their program - but it wasn't a gold-medal
performance.
angie
<i also had a strange sense of deja-vu every 30 seconds or so!>
--
Angela C. Lukach
In a previous article, wat...@selway.umt.edu (Chopped Liver) says:
>Torvill and Dean were robbed and abused by the judges for two reasons, IMHO.
>One, they had the audiacity to come back after 10 years and perform with the
>same perfection the showed in Sarajevo. Two, they dared perform a routine
>that the judges hadn't seen before.
Charlie -
see my earlier post - they performed a routine the judges HAD seen
before - in 1981's "Barnum" routine, in 1982's "Mack & Mabel"
routine and in 1990's "Missing" routine (skated by Paul & Isabelle
Duschenay)!
I'd also like to point out that Paul and Isabelle won the World's
in 1991 with an entirely new program that they hadn't done at
the Europeans 3 weeks before!
angie
--
Jay Geertsen
> put on a good show - but in terms of Olympic class judging, they were
> NOT the best skaters last night.
Part of my point is that that's a matter of opinion. We don't have a
common, standard "best-o-meter".
A related question is: why should _I_ care what _your_ criteria for
"best" is? I don't mean that as an insult. I simply don't see what
bearing _your_ perspective has or should have on _mine_.
> I really enjoyed their program - but it wasn't a gold-medal
> performance.
And another part of my point is that I don't care if it was or not.
Long ago, I gave up caring who "wins" skating competitions because what
I like never seems to be what is "best". For me, it's more enjoyable to
appreciate skating for the artistic value than it is to watch a
competition in which I can't appreciate what standard of "best" is being
applied by the judges for that particular event.
For me, last night's experience simply reminded me why I don't care who
"wins" skating competitions. What I like isn't what is "best", and I
don't expect it to be.
--
Jay Geertsen
Norma J Dowell
What I want to know from the skating experts out there is when speed was
compulsory in ice dancing? Maybe Torville and Dean did too many lifts, but
their program was, in my opinion, much more interesting and difficult than
either Russian team. Maybe they are trying to be extremely creative with the
rules and the judges didn't buy it.
Give me some opinions on this.
--
Patrick Stinson
Dowell) wrote:
> compulsory in ice dancing? Maybe Torville and Dean did too many lifts, but
The judging was just inconsistant if not biased. One of the CBS
commentators pointed out that the Russian pair who won the gold were
seperated from each other several times during their program for intervals
approaching 7 seconds. According to the rule book they are only allowed a
5 second seperation. This was a "black and white" rule that was not backed
up by the mandatory .3 deduction while the lift problem mentioned was in a
gray area. (Did he left her over his head, or did her momentum carry her
over the top?) Boitano seemed to think that maybe the judges were harder
on Torville and Dean because they had been professionals and the judges
expectations were higher.
Gabriel G Tsui
(Rich Zinkus) writes:
>
>Frankly, I don't think the judges could stand to see a comeback couple,
>especially one that had been professional, perform better than the "young
>kids." I think in their own minds Torvill and Dean had already lost.
>Being that the judging is subjective, it provides an opportunity for the
>judges to get away with ranking Torvill and Dean lower than the others.
>(Looking at the Russian couple that won, they were apart from each other on
>the ice for more than 5 seconds during their routine, which should've
>netted them deductions but didn't.)
>
Jill Trenary (Dean revealed tonight that they're engaged) had the boldness to
say that the judges had decided beforehand who was going to win. Good for
her. However, I don't think this bias extends to all professionals. In the
pairs, Gordeeva and Grinkov and Mishketunok and Dmitriev came in 1-2. No
matter what the record books say, everyone will always remember Torvill
and Dean.
>Wasn't ice skating/dancing one of the last events to allow professionals to
>compete in the Olympics? What was the reason for the holdout? It was
>allowed in basketball and hockey; I'm not sure about the other events.
>
Hockey? I don't think NHL players are allowed to compete, because they
keep talking about a '98 Dream Team if the rules are changed. I know that
there's some NHL guys in the Olympics, but that's because they retired.
Am I wrong?
piranha
ekho...@uceng.uc.edu (Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko) writes:
[his friends and buddies, judges all, scored the final dance:]
Torvill/Dean Usova/Zhulin Winners
>Russia <international> 3 1 2
>Russia <local> 3 1 2
>Ukraine <republican> 3 1 2
>Spain <international> 3 2 1
you are a funny man. first off, i don't really care what
any random judges score; i got tired of the damn politics
in figure skating years ago. too bad i forgot and made the
mistake to watch beyond the actual skating this year. but
-- since you went to the trouble, would you care to explain
to me how the above leads to GRITSCHUK/PLATOV winning? i
agree that one can probably argue about u&z versus t&d on
a technical level. but how can one possibly argue for g&p
on that level being better than the two other pairs?
>The summary of the comments is as follows:
>
>1. All judges agreed that techical-wise Usova/Zhulin were the best. All also
> agreed that Torvill/Dean were at least a level below the technical difficulty
> of the 2 Russian pairs.
>
that's nice. obviously that's not what the olympics judges
thought tho, did you notice? t&d got a lower score due to
deductions for purportedly illegal/too many moves, not due to
technical inferiority.
>2. The top 3 judges thought Usova/Zhulin performance to be the best
> artistically while the Spanish judge preferred the other Russian pair <sorry
> I forgot their names at the moment>.
>
here you realize that we are in la-la land, right? style pre-
ference can be intensely subjective. i thought u&z were good,
but t&d had that little something extra. but still, u&z did
_not_ win the gold medal, the IMO inferior both technically
and artistically g&p did. if u&z had won, i'd be less annoyed.
>All said that Torvill/Dean were very very very slow in comparison with
>the other 2 pairs.
>
hogwash. sorry, but really. t&d didn't have a long slow part
during which they could recover from a previous superfast part,
the whole program was medium fast pretty much thru and thru.
YMMV as to what is preferable; i prefer smooth presentation all
the way thru instead of sudden breaks from fast to slow to fast
again. it disturbs the harmony of the dance for me if there are
obvious breaks. i know speed matters, but if it begins to matter
more than other important aspects of ice dancing then i am simply
in disagreement. t&d weren't very very very slow in any case.
...much deleted because i am not of the camp who thinks russian
judges favor russian skaters; i find that some judges are very
obviously nationalistic, but most don't seem that way, and i
didn't see anything unkosher in that regard here. i do think
that there's too much politics in skating judging, and i've been
fed up with it for years. maybe we should throw all the fossi-
lized creatures out and start over.
>... Competition is about being the best. Torvill
>and Dean were not on that night.
>
now you really show ignorance. i don't think i've seen them
much more "on" ever. they were incredibly "on". and to say
that skating competition is about being the best shows enormous
naivete IMO. no single event, judged subjectively, can ever
show who is the best. don't kid yourself. i realize you are
proud of your pairs, and you have good reason to be; they're
great skaters. i have no personal national interest in any of
the skaters; i enjoy performance for what it is, not for who
skates in it for which country.
>BTW, just an interesting thing, as the Winner pair finished scating, they
>still didn't know who won. The guy kept saying "We are first", while the girl
>just sat there... Then the coach of Usova/Zhulin indicated to them that they
>won, and the girl said in sheer disbelief, "She made a mistake. She miscalculated
>" and started crying....
>
well, she knew the truth, eh? :-) (i didn't understand why she
looked so unhappy; she started crying BEFORE realizing that they
had won; that didn't seem to make any sense to me.) anyway. i
am always torn between being supremely annoyed at the judging,
and being happy for the ones who won -- what a great experience
that must be for them; i certainly don't grudge it to them.
-piranha, who personally prefers water to ice :-)
Kimmo S{{skilahti
Richard N Kitchen <da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
>I disagree, humbly. To my eyes, they were very *flashy*, lots of lifts
>and weird moves, but their side-by-side skating was just plain. they
>didn't do a lot of great footwork.
I agree with your disagreement - for me, Torvill and Dean's program
consisted mainly of skating around, doing some strange moves and such,
all in slow-motion. I know that the speed of the pair is probably not
one of the most important aspects of the programme, but you must admit
that it will increase the technical difficulty in the program. Of
course, at slow speed, the skating maybe looks more elegant, and that
was one of the things Torvill and Dean were aiming at.
Well, their performance was better than in the Europeans - how they
won the gold there is still beyond me.
I must admit that I am a bit biased - one thing caused by Torvill and
Dean's comeback was that the excellent Finnish pair Rahkamo and Kokko
were not able to get the medal they should have gotten years ago
already.
Kimmo
--
Kimmo Saaskilahti * "Only suckers fall in love
trk...@uta.fi * with perfect strangers"
* - Tom Waits
Jim Thomas
many lifts makes me wonder. According to the rules that were explained
on TV, the couple have to skate *together*. That's what annoyed me
the most about the couple that won the gold--their program had more
rules violations than T&Ds, yet they were not penalized. It is
this sort of inconsistency that has a lot of people annoyed with
the outcome.
Regarding the fast-slow nonsense:
This is ice-dancing, not speed skating. While speed might well be
a component of the technical merit caption, speed in and of itself
hardly seems a legitimate basis for artistic merit. Speed was the only
thing the gold medal couple had that set them apart from the others IMHO.
Jim Thomas
Penn State
Mika Heiskanen
>I *have* paid to see T & D skate! They are *always* entertaining
>and put on a good show - but in terms of Olympic class judging,
>they were NOT the best skaters last night.
>
>I really enjoyed their program - but it wasn't a gold-medal
>performance.
Personally the program struck me just as a bag of tricks, jumping around etc.
The dance was missing. Also just having seen _Strictly Ballroom_ some time
ago their stiff upper bodies gave me the creeps. I'm no expert so I can't say
if the technical marks were ok, but I would have accepted lower artistic
marks with no complaints.
Looking forward to seeing Bolero again though..
--
---> Mika Heiskanen, mhei...@delta.hut.fi
Daniel Banyas
|> In article <2kdlsc$n...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>,
|> Richard N Kitchen <da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
|>
|> >I disagree, humbly. To my eyes, they were very *flashy*, lots of lifts
|> >and weird moves, but their side-by-side skating was just plain. they
|> >didn't do a lot of great footwork.
|>
|> I agree with your disagreement - for me, Torvill and Dean's program
|> consisted mainly of skating around, doing some strange moves and such,
|> all in slow-motion. I know that the speed of the pair is probably not
|> one of the most important aspects of the programme, but you must admit
|> that it will increase the technical difficulty in the program. Of
|> course, at slow speed, the skating maybe looks more elegant, and that
|> was one of the things Torvill and Dean were aiming at.
Tracy Wilson on CBS last night (their coverage on a day of limited
sports action, IMHO, was great last night) showed how some of the other
dance pairs, particularily the gold medal winners, blatantly violated
the rules but were NOT penalized like T&D. For example, she showed
three separate cases where the gold winners spent more than the
allowed 5 seconds apart from each other - even one case where the
time apart was over 10 seconds. How was this missed? I knew nothing
about the rules, but Wilson did and pointed it out DURING the competition,
before touching on it again last night.
T&D were also under CBS, and while trying NOT to be bitter or angry,
it was obvious that they felt they were held up to a different judging
standard than the other pairs.
And I think, after seeing the tapes, reading the articles, and listening
to the expert commentary (on TV - not here! ;) that they are correct.
M.S. Burton
>see my earlier post - they performed a routine the judges HAD seen
>before - in 1981's "Barnum" routine, in 1982's "Mack & Mabel"
>routine and in 1990's "Missing" routine (skated by Paul & Isabelle
>Duschenay)!
True; there were also quotes from some of their other dances. "Quotes", as
befits a remembrance dance set to "Let's face the music and dance". BTW,
Dean made Missing for Jayne and himself to perform, and the Duschesney's
winning program was a re-vamped version of that.
>I'd also like to point out that Paul and Isabelle won the World's
>in 1991 with an entirely new program that they hadn't done at
>the Europeans 3 weeks before!
Also true; in this case after Europeans the skating union and various
judges "suggested" that the mirror image routine (by Dean) that they had
done was "not appropriate", and that they had better make some changes,
hence "Missing: the sequel" that they won with. The judges may not have
seen it at Europeans, but they HAD seen a lot of it....
Ronald Oakes
I also feel that T&D had the best Free Dance, and according to the scoring
system for Figure Skating and the previous scores, should have won the Gold
Medal.
Why?
1: Of all of the Ice DANCER's, they were the only pair with a performance
that was related to the music. If this is a dance, then it should follow
the beat of the music. Torvill and Dean did that. Neither of the Russian
pairs did. In fact the Gold Medal winning pair seemed to have no idea the
music was even there.
2: Torvill and Dean's skate was, as near as I could tell, flawless. They
moved together, staied close, and had no noticeable errors. The other
medalist pairs also had clean programs.
3: Torvill and Dean had orders of magnitude more energy, even if they were
moving slower than the Gold Medalists, their performance was more
energetic. Both Russian pairs seemed to be just going through the motions,
Torvill and Dean were performing, AND ENJOYING IT!
Now, I am an infrequent observer of Figure Skating (about one meet every 4
years), but can decide what I enjoy and appreciate. Since Ice Dancing is
more subjectively judged than other forms of Figure Skating, then the
enjoyment factor should result in a higher score!
Perhaps a partial remedy would be to have the scoring for Ice Dancing
borrow something from Drum Corps and Marching Band competitions -- audience
reaction. Figure Skating, and especially Ice Dancing, is a performance. If
the audience likes it, that should help the scores go up. Yes, this would
increase the "Home Team" advantage, but a good program will make people
cheer.
Ronald B. Oakes
bo...@cos.com
>Charlie -
According to the CBS review last night, the russian pair broke the
five second rule not once, but three times, whereas the only rule
that T&D seemed to have broken was the one lift.
Let's face it, the whole IOC scene smells like rotten fish. Last
night the Canadian short track speed skaters were robbed blind.
They got fouled three times and the judges caught two of the fouls.
But did they re-run the race? Not bloody likely! I hope the Koreans
are proud of their medals because they sure did not earn them.
If I ever get foolish enough to watch olympics again it will only
be where the athletes race the clock or each other on a wide open
track. The poor people of Lillehammer will need to fumigate the
town when the IOC leaves.
>angie
>--
Bob B.
Amanda Allen
totally new and different program at the olympics in 1984, the figure skating
association changed the rules and prohibited much of what torvill and dean did
in 1984...So, t and D did it "with the rule book in one hand" as thye put it
and then got screwed by the judges who preferred the programs of the Russians
who actually did some questionable stuff by the new rules...
Amanda
Frank Dudbridge
Now this seems to be getting to the point. The winners of these competitions
are not those with the most interesting or entertaining programs (which to me
were T & D) but those who score the most from the judges. In 1984 they knew
exactly what the judges wanted and consequently scored perfect marks. Ten
years away, tastes change and for all the skating ability they might have
retained, they clearly hadn't regained the rapport with the judges which a
longer period back in amateur competition may have given them.
An unusual 'comeback' mistake to make, but a mistake none the less. Unlucky!
Sherry Yang
>There is a VHS tape of their dancing and careers that is very beautiful.
Any info on how to get that tape?
Thanks,
-Sherry
ya...@storm.cs.orst.edu
John Altinbay
>Jay -
>
>I *have* paid to see T & D skate! They are *always* entertaining
>and put on a good show - but in terms of Olympic class judging,
>they were NOT the best skaters last night.
>
You're right. They were not in the same league as the other
skaters. They were *much better* than the other skaters.
>I really enjoyed their program - but it wasn't a gold-medal
>performance.
>
Agreed again - it was a platinum medal performance.
It's not so much that T & D were robbed. *We* were all robbed.
With this fiasco, the Olympics have made a declaration of
mediocrity.
--
John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com anon...@twwells.com
===============================================================
There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me
My life is worth the living, I don't need to see the end.
John Altinbay
>
>OK!!! I was waiting for this post.. And I came prepared... Of course, I admit
>my favorability of Russian pairs... but this one was not EVEN CLOSE!!!
Yes. I take it from your name that you are Russian.
>Not to be judgemental, here we ago:
>I contacted 3 former USSR pairs ice-scating judges, 1 from Russia <judged on
>international level> , another from Russia <judjed on local level> and
>1 from Ukraine <judged on republican level>. I also contacted one of my
>friends from Spain, whose own friend is a pair scating judge from Madrid
><international level>... here's how they scored the final dance and why:
>
> Torvill/Dean Usova/Zhulin Winners
>Russia <international> 3 1 2
>Russia <local> 3 1 2
>Ukraine <republican> 3 1 2
>Spain <international> 3 2 1
>
Three former skaters from the former USSR liked the Russian skaters.
>And here's how the official Olympic judges rated the scate:
> Torvill/Dean Usova/Z Winners
>Russia 3 2 1
>Great Britain 1 3 2
>Ukraine 2 1 3
>Belorussia 2 1 3
>Chech Republic 3 2 1
>Canada 3 2 1
>Australia<?> 3 1 2
>whoever else 3 2 1
>
>To anyone who dares suggest the Russian pair won unfairly, I suggest you look
>at the only judge who put Torvill/Dean first and think about it....
You say that Russian judges giving high marks to Russian skaters is not
favoritism, yet you insist that a British judge giving top marks to British
skaters is. I don't understand why there is a difference.
>Also look at WHO put the Winners on the top spot of the podium: the
>Russian judge can't be percieved as partial, because he/she could have
>voted for any of the 2 pairs, and Tor/Dean had already lost by the time
>the Winners scated.
If the Russian judge picked one of two possible Russian skater pairs,
why is that not perceivable as being partial? If they had 10 to choose from,
or 100, what difference does it make. They still voted better scores
for Russian skaters. There is still the possibility that they were partial.
If they had given better scores to Torvill & Dean than to the other Russian
skaters, they would not have had already lost by the time the "winners"
skated.
> Ukraine+Belorussia, the only 2 former Soviet judges went
>against the Winners. Canada and Australia, who traditionally favor English and
>American scaters voted for the Russian winners!!!
Ukraine & Belorussia still gave higher marks to a pair of Russian skaters.
That could still be construed as being partial.
>As I was watching the whole thing, I was routing for Usova and Zhulin and
>both of my parents were pro-Torvill&Dean. They too admitted Tor/Dean were slow.
>So please, 8 out of nine judges did not see T&D as the best. Saying they were,
>is like saying KC should have played Sf49's in the S-bowl, because it was
>the choice you wanted to see... Competition is about being the best. Torvill
>and Dean were not on that night.
>
Well, I disagree. T&D *were* the best. The judges did not award
the scores to the best skaters.
>BTW, just an interesting thing, as the Winner pair finished scating, they
>still didn't know who won. The guy kept saying "We are first", while the girl
>just sat there... Then the coach of Usova/Zhulin indicated to them that they
>won, and the girl said in sheer disbelief, "She made a mistake. She miscalculated
>" and started crying....
>
>And oh, I thought Usova and Zhulin were the best too :)
>Gene Y.Kholodenko
And you, too, are Russian.
Daniel Briggs
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Angela C. Lukach) writes:
>They *did* exceed
>the allowed number of assisted jumps *and* lifts both -
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
I certainly have no credentials in this area, but the CBS coverage
explicitly stated that there was no limit on the number of assisted jumps,
and that the judges must have considered some of the assisted jumps to be
lifts, putting them over the limit. So what's the story? Was CBS wrong
again? Is there or isn't there a limit on the number of assisted jumps?
--
| Daniel Briggs (dbr...@nrao.edu) | USPA C-23367
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory | DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801 (505) 835-7391 |
| Dart: MC Ot+W H 3 Y L+ W C+ I++ T++ A+ H+ S+ V+ P++/P B+ |
r.j.capik
> My $0.02 on the subject:
>
> moving slower than the Gold Medalists, their performance was more
> energetic. Both Russian pairs seemed to be just going through the motions,
> Torvill and Dean were performing, AND ENJOYING IT!
>
>
Torvill and Dean may in fact have been slower, but just how much slower?
I do not question the need for a higher level of technical competance to
perform at a high speed and remain in control. I do however question the
numerical relationship of speed to difficulty. Thus I wonder, if a a spin
is 10% faster is it 10% harder or 50% harder. Just how should you judge
and rate the speed of the competitors?
Case in point; for years we (in my sport of freestyle skiing) judged mogul
skiers on the perception of speed. As we refined our scoring system and
added electronic timing we were surprised to find that some slow looking
skiers had very fast times. It turned out that they were soooo smooth that
they appeared to be much slower than they in fact were.
I must say that I'm almost surprised that some creative media person
hasn't come up with a way to measure how much ice the skaters cover, and
how fast... then use it as a case for/against the judges, or to support their
critique.
[ OK, I wouldn't expect this from CBS... but maybe ABC might...
...here's the computer tracking analysis from our exclusive ABC skyview
camera, and you can clearly see that... blah blah blah... ]
So, the statement,"Torvill and Dean were slower" has little meaning to me
unless you can tell me how you quanitify and weight this factor.
--
Ron Capik from: AT&T Bell Labs, New Jersey via: lo...@hogpa.att.com
US Ski Association Freestyle Judge
--
Nobby N. Coburn
>
>
>In a previous article, dbr...@Mr-Hyde.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) says:
>
>>>They *did* exceed
>>>the allowed number of assisted jumps *and* lifts both -
>> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>>
>
>
>Could someone else help with the number of lifts allowed?
>
>angie
>
I don't know the exact # of lifts allowed, but I did have one questions.
Wasn't the lift at the end over HIS head? And if it was over his head,
isn't that not allowed? They should have been deducted more.
I loved the program and felt they were the best, but to break that rule
and possibly the one about the # of lifts isn't justifiable. Isn't the
Olympics built on the spirit of competition? That wasn't competition and
because of that they shouldn't have even won a medal, PERIOD! The other
skaters did not have the option that they seemed to have given themselves.
Nobby
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
Absolutely... In the CBS interview Dean said he knew some lifts and other
elements in his program where,as he put it, "in the grey area" of the rules...
Well, if you are willing to leave them in for whatever purpose, you must surely
realise there's room for judges to react differently.
Gene
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
>
>In a previous article, gt...@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Gabriel G Tsui) says:
>
>>In article <1994Feb22....@k12.ucs.umass.edu> dbr...@k12.ucs.umass.edu (Daniel A. Brown (Bernardston ES)) writes:
>>>
>>>Maybe I'm missing something but this team should have won the gold. They
>>>were much more inventive, daring, graceful and exciting than their winning
>>>competitors.
>>>
>>They got robbed. Apparently the judges deducted points from them because
>>they said they did too many lifts. I must have been blind. There was
>>somersault thing near the end. However, they still got stiffed. Their
>>program was by far the most technical and entertaining.
>
>I disagree, humbly. To my eyes, they were very *flashy*, lots of lifts
>and weird moves, but their side-by-side skating was just plain. they
>didn't do a lot of great footwork.
YES!
>
>>However, Gritschuk and Platov did a good job as well. I was especially
>>turned off by Usova and Zhulin's attempt at a "cute" program.
>
>Again, I disagree. U&Z should have won gold at Albertville, and should
>have won gold at Lillehammer. Their program was much the more
>difficult, as far as I am concerned. At least, they wore different
>outfits from teh Europeans, in an attempt not to look *too* "cute."
YES!
>
>>(BTW, does anyone else find her as repulsive as I do? That hair!!!)
>
>I think Maia Usova is exotically beautiful.
She has that classic "Russian beauty" look, that most Russians despise but
others find "strangely beautiful"... It's a matter of opinion, I guess.
Gene Y.Kholodenko
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
>REFERENCES: <1994Feb22....@k12.ucs.umass.edu>
>
>ekho...@uceng.uc.edu (Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko) writes:
>
>[his friends and buddies, judges all, scored the final dance:]
>
> Torvill/Dean Usova/Zhulin Winners
>>Russia <international> 3 1 2
>>Russia <local> 3 1 2
>>Ukraine <republican> 3 1 2
>>Spain <international> 3 2 1
>
> you are a funny man. first off, i don't really care what
> any random judges score; i got tired of the damn politics
> in figure skating years ago. too bad i forgot and made the
> mistake to watch beyond the actual skating this year. but
> -- since you went to the trouble, would you care to explain
> to me how the above leads to GRITSCHUK/PLATOV winning? i
> agree that one can probably argue about u&z versus t&d on
> a technical level. but how can one possibly argue for g&p
> on that level being better than the two other pairs?
As I said, G&P were technically superior <footwork> and faster then T&D. You
saying "it ain't so" does not change the fact. Once again, 8/9 judges put
DID NOT put T/D first. As to the politics, many people are always willing to argue
that's the case, so I just demonstrated it wasn't.
>
>>The summary of the comments is as follows:
>>
>>1. All judges agreed that techical-wise Usova/Zhulin were the best. All also
>> agreed that Torvill/Dean were at least a level below the technical difficulty
>> of the 2 Russian pairs.
>>
> that's nice. obviously that's not what the olympics judges
> thought tho, did you notice? t&d got a lower score due to
> deductions for purportedly illegal/too many moves, not due to
> technical inferiority.
>
HOW DO YOU KNOW???? As far as I know, 1 judge mentioned subtracting points for
illegalities, which does not mean all did. Just look for the posts by people
who actually scate and/or judge, you'll see that as much as they like T&D they
think they weren't the best that night. You keep routing for your favorite,
we are discussing actual performance. After all, it ONLY matters what judges think
in terms of the medals. I, for one, would rather see T/D than G/P and much rather
see U/Z than any of them.
>>2. The top 3 judges thought Usova/Zhulin performance to be the best
>> artistically while the Spanish judge preferred the other Russian pair <sorry
>> I forgot their names at the moment>.
>>
> here you realize that we are in la-la land, right? style pre-
> ference can be intensely subjective. i thought u&z were good,
> but t&d had that little something extra. but still, u&z did
> _not_ win the gold medal, the IMO inferior both technically
> and artistically g&p did. if u&z had won, i'd be less annoyed.
>
Absolutely, it's a grey area. As before, the competition is judged by
the judges <really>. If you hope to win, you have to be the couple the
judges like the most.
>>All said that Torvill/Dean were very very very slow in comparison with
>>the other 2 pairs.
>>
> hogwash. sorry, but really. t&d didn't have a long slow part
> during which they could recover from a previous superfast part,
> the whole program was medium fast pretty much thru and thru.
> YMMV as to what is preferable; i prefer smooth presentation all
> the way thru instead of sudden breaks from fast to slow to fast
> again. it disturbs the harmony of the dance for me if there are
> obvious breaks. i know speed matters, but if it begins to matter
> more than other important aspects of ice dancing then i am simply
> in disagreement. t&d weren't very very very slow in any case.
>
> ...much deleted because i am not of the camp who thinks russian
> judges favor russian skaters; i find that some judges are very
> obviously nationalistic, but most don't seem that way, and i
> didn't see anything unkosher in that regard here. i do think
> that there's too much politics in skating judging, and i've been
> fed up with it for years. maybe we should throw all the fossi-
> lized creatures out and start over.
>
ONCE AGIAN, LOOK @ THE FACTS:::: BRITISH JUDGE WAS THE ONLY ONE TO RANK T/D 1-st!!!!
>>... Competition is about being the best. Torvill
>>and Dean were not on that night.
>>
> now you really show ignorance. i don't think i've seen them
> much more "on" ever. they were incredibly "on". and to say
> that skating competition is about being the best shows enormous
> naivete IMO. no single event, judged subjectively, can ever
> show who is the best. don't kid yourself. i realize you are
> proud of your pairs, and you have good reason to be; they're
> great skaters. i have no personal national interest in any of
> the skaters; i enjoy performance for what it is, not for who
> skates in it for which country.
>
I am American by sitizenship. I just used to live in Russia. As to being the
best, if they were why didn't they win??? Apparently a subjective event like this
is about being the best on that night as the judges see it. DEAL WITH IT, IT'S A
FACT!!!
>>BTW, just an interesting thing, as the Winner pair finished scating, they
>>still didn't know who won. The guy kept saying "We are first", while the girl
>>just sat there... Then the coach of Usova/Zhulin indicated to them that they
>>won, and the girl said in sheer disbelief, "She made a mistake. She miscalculated
>>" and started crying....
>>
> well, she knew the truth, eh? :-) (i didn't understand why she
> looked so unhappy; she started crying BEFORE realizing that they
> had won; that didn't seem to make any sense to me.) anyway. i
> am always torn between being supremely annoyed at the judging,
> and being happy for the ones who won -- what a great experience
> that must be for them; i certainly don't grudge it to them.
>
> -piranha, who personally prefers water to ice :-)
>
Nice sig, I like fl8merz.
Gene
U15...@uicvm.uic.edu
Dean gave Torvil a bump, which bounced her over his head. There was no
"lifting" involved! They, in essence, invented a new technique. That's
a no-no! Too creative for the olympics. Seriously, I don't think that
whether they win 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or whatever matters. All that matters is
that we get another chance to see a very creative couple that define the
ART of ice dancing. Where better to display this than at the olympics?!
Tom Ascher Internet: u15...@uicvm.uic.edu
University of Illinois at Chicago Phone: (312) 413-3665
Peter C.S. Adams
da...@nyis138.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Daniel Banyas) wrote:
>T&D were also under CBS, and while trying NOT to be bitter or angry,
>it was obvious that they felt they were held up to a different judging
>standard than the other pairs.
When you're perfect, you tend to be held to a higher standard
than mere humans. :->
+--------------------------------------+
| The sunlights differ, but there is | Peter C.S. Adams
| only one darkness. --Ursula LeGuin | UMass-Boston
+--------------------------------------+
Peter C.S. Adams
(Ronald Oakes) wrote:
>Perhaps a partial remedy would be to have the scoring for Ice Dancing
>borrow something from Drum Corps and Marching Band competitions -- audience
>reaction. Figure Skating, and especially Ice Dancing, is a performance. If
>the audience likes it, that should help the scores go up. Yes, this would
>increase the "Home Team" advantage, but a good program will make people
>cheer.
I was thinking that all figure skaters should be judged by their peers. The
judges are so stodgy. You have to skate perfectly in one olympic just to get
noticed. Then you have a shot at the next one. The judges are just behind
the times. Let the skaters skate and be judged by their peers!
Matt Simmons
: In article <CLnEB...@freenet.carleton.ca> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Angela C. Lukach) writes:
: With this fiasco, the Olympics have made a declaration of
: mediocrity.
You forgot to also predict the imminent death of the net...
: John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com anon...@twwells.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't anonymous accounts supposed to be... well.... anonymous? Isn't
this kinda defeating the purpose?
zar...@cs1.bradley.edu Matt Simmons Bradley University, Peoria, IL
Teri Polo Fan, Disney Freak, Amigoid, Munchkin, Owned by Citibank
Cool Looking Mutant Spider Thing, Kibo Number 1
"It's called `evolution in action', and it involves applying `extreme
prejudice' to people guilty of incurable assholery." -ma...@tanda.isis.org
John Altinbay
here, so in case anyone else is as interested as the poster in the
information:
In article <2kpffr$a...@cs1.bradley.edu> zar...@cs1.bradley.edu writes:
>John Altinbay (alti...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com anon...@twwells.com
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Aren't anonymous accounts supposed to be... well.... anonymous? Isn't
>this kinda defeating the purpose?
>
I maintain an anonymous account in order that others who only
communicate through anonymous accounts can reach me by e-mail.
I post strictly through my netcom account, and the anon information
is provided for the purpose I just cited.
FYI.
--
John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com anon...@twwells.com
Bettina Helms
EYK> I am American by sitizenship. I just used to live in Russia. As to
EYK> being the best, if they were why didn't they win??? Apparently a
EYK> subjective event like this is about being the best on that night
EYK> as the judges see it. DEAL WITH IT, IT'S A FACT!!!
No, what a subjective event like this is about is who the judges want to
see win, and are willing to close their eyes to major violations of the
official rules for -- and who they *don't* want to see win, and are
going to crucify to the rulebook for even *possible* violations.
Gritschuk and Platov clearly violated the "separations shall not last
longer than 5 seconds" rule -- more than once -- and the judges took no
notice. Torvill & Dean made a couple of moves that might or might not be
in violation of the rules -- moves that had been in their program at the
European Championships and had been allowed without comment -- and the
judges jumped all over them.
If you are going to insist that the gold medal should have gone to the
least controversial of the three top competitors, that was Usova &
Zhulin. But they *were* controversial in two other ways: they were
trying for a major image change (from steamy to cutesy), and -- perhaps
more importantly -- they had abandoned their homeland to train in the
USA, where they could get the ice time and financial support they
needed. With the new uprising in "Russian nationalism", that made them
cowards who ran out when the going got tough. Did *that* have anything
to do with their being relegated to the silver medal? Quite possibly!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Sandy Maurer
In a previous article, U15...@uicvm.uic.edu () says:
>If you looked at the slow motion video of the final "lift" you'll see that
>Dean gave Torvil a bump, which bounced her over his head. There was no
>"lifting" involved! They, in essence, invented a new technique. That's
>a no-no! Too creative for the olympics. Seriously, I don't think that
>whether they win 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or whatever matters. All that matters is
>that we get another chance to see a very creative couple that define the
>ART of ice dancing. Where better to display this than at the olympics?!
>
They won the peoples choice award. They were OUTSTANDING!
Sandy
>
Jari Kyng{s
>They won the peoples choice award. They were OUTSTANDING!
>Sandy
They were clumsy and too fucking old. Thorwill looked like a hag and Dean
smiled like an idiot.
They would have done better standing outside the hall.
Jari "The gentleman"
Judy Colwell
Hardly.
Judy Colwell
ju...@forsythe.stanford.edu
Mike Smith
Is this thread still running? I week or so ago I saw the vice-president of the
ICS claim that T&D deserved to win, and I'm sure he knows more about it all than
anybody who reads this newsgroup. Just goes to show how dodgy all this judging
business is.
Mike
Mike Smith
What a load of old bollocks.