To Ficht or Not
Jim R.
Jim
snapper wrote in message <35EDF432...@home.com>...
>Trailer boat magazine compared two 90 hp outboards: Honda (their stock
>4-stroke FI) and a new 2-stroke Ficht FI from Evinrude (too new for
>dealers' shelves) and was the first direct comparison ever.
>Conclusion: almost even. Evinrude had a little more acceleration and
>speed, perhaps because it was a little lighter, and was quieter in dBs
>too, even though Honda sounds quieter. Environmentally (based on mfg'
>claims) Honda is about 5 times cleaner, but Ficht was about 4 times
>cleaner than a conventional 2-stroke; however, Evinrude put out a
>fraction of the carbon dioxide (but, trees like that stuff don't
>they?). The fuel economy was about the same with 7.1 mpg for Honda and
>0.3 less for Evinrude-- Evinrude was most efficient at 3000 rpm while
>Honda was best at 3500 (and consequently a little faster), but no
>measurement was done to compare their relative efficiencies at top
>speed. If list prices are any indication, the 2-stroke is a lot cheaper
>by over a grand: the Honda alone costs about as much as a new Genesis.
>If Honda ever fielded a PWC, it probably would be costly but probably
>could find a market in the new Luxury/Touring class that Polaris in
>pioneering.
>
Stephen R. Schiffler
dumping the Kaw and going Polaris in 99 . Hey Snapper let me know if
the Genesis still has the low fuel idle only feature . Thats the
dumbest idea and would never buy a ski with that feature . I have seen
several with full tanks of gas and bad sending units , which would
only idle . IMO in heavy traffic areas this feature is dangerous . I
hope Polaris abandons this feature .
Stingray
W.S. O'Neal
Jim works for Honda.
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
Stephen R. Schiffler wrote in message
<35ee254d...@news.nwonline.net>...
Stephen R. Schiffler
Well if Jim works for Honda than 99 will get real interesting .
What experence does honda have in making hulls ? And when can we see
the Honda product ? A couple of years ago we also heard mercury was
getting into the PWC business but that never matured . That was why I
doubt if Honda will jump in so late .
Stingray
On 3 Sep 1998 12:44:19 GMT, "W.S. O'Neal"
KDA
Should anyone buy a Polaris before they see what Yamaha is up to ? After all, Yama does have the PWC of the year (first time ever awarded to boats in this new luxury/touring/performance class (what is Yama up to, any ideas ?), and Yama already has the power. Add a few modest incremental improvements like DFI and a few gallons more of fuel capacity and the XL1200 it could be the best PWC in '99 as well. I suggest Yama position the gas fill location so that it is easy to refuel while floating, like a real boat, not a sea scooter (which is how PWC detractors want to position PWCs, so that new and restrictive laws can be enacted against them without effecting other boaters, who are far more numerous but far less active on the water).
Genesis does have is a way to electronically reduce top throttle (like a valet key) which I believe is a good idea for many reasons, such as the following: to maximize range, letting others ride who you do not want to give full power to, limiting speed in rough conditions such as "full throttle" ocean crossings, and for fast acceleration activities such as tube and ski pulling where you might not ever plan to exceed 25 mph. The best thing about Genesis is that it is a positive image creator for the whole industry.
PLAYSAFE with custom multi-laminated mouthguards
HarryKrause
>
> Bill ,
> Well if Jim works for Honda than 99 will get real interesting .
> What experence does honda have in making hulls ? And when can we see
> the Honda product ? A couple of years ago we also heard mercury was
> getting into the PWC business but that never matured . That was why I
> doubt if Honda will jump in so late .
> Stingray
>
Honda doesn't need experience in preparing a PWC hull. It can buy all the
experience it needs. Right now, you can buy a Honda water-ski boat that is, oh,
100 times more complex than a simple PWC. It simply contracts out the hull and
installs its engines.
Further, it is not rocket science to buy an existing PWC hull that performs well
and create molds from it. Happens all the time in the conventional boat
business. There must be 20 lines of 17-22' Center Consoles all using what
appears to be the same hull mold.
--
Harry Krause
EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address
- - - - - - - - - -
"Why isn't 'PHONETICALLY' spelled that way?"
John Hill
As I understand it 1) Honda was afraid that the Jetski situation would end
up like the 3 wheeler ATV experience they had... lots of law suits and
laws( maybe not that wrong) and decided to stay out.
2) Honda and Sea Doo worked for a couple of years on a 4 cycle PWC engine
and it went no where and was killed 1-2 years ago. If you know the cost
of a 4 cycle Honda outboard ,you can understand why perhaps...
The PWC market is very,very price sensitive. This is why the Best FI
(Ficht) may not survive against a cheaper, less effective version unless
the Ficht difference in price is quickly justifiable (more power,
reliability.. which is often hard to dissern over the short term which is
what PWCs are designed for, and significantly better gas mileage)...
In the Polaris Ficht we have a more expensive/better tripple making no
more HP than cheaper carbed versions of the engine or a Yama 1200... or
even what twos can produce with much better feul consumption... which will
also be FI by 2000.
If Sea Doo and Yama run with inhouse FI units that cost less but do not run
up the price and yet meet EPA standards, they may be better off with a
lesser unit(read not as good) than the Ficht that does not add 20+ percent
to the price of a PWC. The outboards are built for decades of use... PWCs
are not... The price of Ficht FI on an outboard can and has been burried
in the much higher markup and it is worth spending more given the longer
use period of an outboard...
Will the market really be able to differentiate from two different FI
systems on technical merits even when significant? I doubt it!. However
the market can differentiate on a $1500 price difference.
The Polaris with the Ficht is a great choice, but Ficht as the standard
with that cost difference and Sea Doo and Yamaha not on board which is 75
percent of the market in PWC sales is another matter. Sea Doo has the
volume to go its own way and to continue to develope and refine... The
others do not and being more expensive is not going to help them increase
their market share... unless their is a very, very big and obvious
difference...
Even Snapper may have problems being satisifed with a bigger 4 seater like
he is looking for, that only goes as fast as his STX... and thats before
you use the additional carrying capacity. $8 to 9K to still be tagging
along in the rear when you are running with friends doing 60+? Just a
thought! And in the first year, there is never any aftermarket stuff until
the end of the season! And I remember the times I Bought a new hull with a
new engine? Whoops...
John
Stephen R. Schiffler <Stin...@nwonline.net> wrote in article
<35eeb64...@news.nwonline.net>...
> Bill ,
> Well if Jim works for Honda than 99 will get real interesting .
> What experence does honda have in making hulls ? And when can we see
> the Honda product ? A couple of years ago we also heard mercury was
> getting into the PWC business but that never matured . That was why I
> doubt if Honda will jump in so late .
> Stingray
>
> On 3 Sep 1998 12:44:19 GMT, "W.S. O'Neal"
> <Water...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Stephen,
> >Jim works for Honda.
> >
> >Bill O'Neal
> >WCM
> >
> >--
> >Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
> >Stephen R. Schiffler wrote in message
> ><35ee254d...@news.nwonline.net>...
CsSLTX
>systems on technical merits even when significant? I doubt it!. However
>the market can differentiate on a $1500 price difference.
If im not mistaken, isnt the gtx RFI the most expensive ski seadoo had this
year, and it only had the 800 motor in it? When seadoo comes out with fuel
injection for the limited motors, it will bump up the price of the ski to the
low to mid 8's. The genises with the FICHT is $8999 compared to the carb
version that sells for $7899, and remember the genesis is like no other boat on
the market, as of now. Same goes for yamaha with there XL. If they put a fuel
injection on there 1200, the price is not going to stay the same.
...but john, i do agree with you on the price sensitive consumer on pwc, it may
scare people away, lets hope not though.
Chris Salisbury
Jim R.
going to produce one. In fact, the Honda Marine and motorcycle guys tell me
they already have R&D boats built. I haven't seen them because they don't
let anyone within 50 ft of the R&D building. As you and I both know, R&D
takes lots of time. Honda is a little worried about the liablility factors
that may arise. Gun-shy from the 3 wheeler fiasco of the 80's. Other
manufacturers watercraft have been seen being trailored into the R&D
building on a regular basis. That's all I have to say about that.
Ride Safe
Jim
Stephen R. Schiffler wrote in message <35eeb64...@news.nwonline.net>...
Jim R.
Money can get you past alot of problems! Guess how many cars Honda sold
last month? Over 80,000 in one month! Thats a lot of R&D money!
Ride Safe
Jim
HarryKrause wrote in message <35EEC426...@erols.com>...
>Stephen R. Schiffler wrote:
>>
>> Bill ,
>> Well if Jim works for Honda than 99 will get real interesting .
>> What experence does honda have in making hulls ? And when can we see
>> the Honda product ? A couple of years ago we also heard mercury was
>> getting into the PWC business but that never matured . That was why I
>> doubt if Honda will jump in so late .
>> Stingray
>>
>
REDZFAM
Big Red Tech Dude All Time Snappy Dresser
Stephen R. Schiffler
Most of us are waiting to see what Yamaha brings to the
table this year . My best guess is the XL 1200 will be fuel injected
or an option like the Polasis . I do expect a larger gas tank
also . The XL has already proved itself a stable dry ride . I hope
that the Genesis is the same . I think its great that the manufactors
are concentraiting more on fuel economy and noise than speed . In the
pictures of the Genesis the sponsons look a tad small for such a large
ski . Beachhouse better start working .
Can you explain how the valet key thing works ? Thats the
first I have heard about it .
Stingray
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 08:34:51 -0700, KDA <ke...@glidewell-lab.com>
wrote:
>
>--------------98902AFA0C143A67B1182078
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>--------------98902AFA0C143A67B1182078
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>
>Stingray,
><BR> Should anyone buy a Polaris before they see what
>Yamaha is up to ? After all, Yama does have the PWC of the year (first
>time ever awarded to boats in this new luxury/touring/<I>performance</I>
>class (what is Yama up to, any ideas ?), and Yama already has the <B><FONT COLOR="#993366">power</FONT></B>.
>Add a few modest incremental improvements like DFI and a few gallons more
>of fuel capacity and the XL1200 it could be the best PWC in '99 as well.
>I suggest Yama position the gas fill location so that it is easy to refuel
>while floating, like a real boat, not a <I>sea scooter (</I>which is how
>PWC detractors want to position PWCs, so that new and restrictive laws
>can be enacted against them without effecting other boaters, who are far
>more numerous but far less active on the water).
><BR> Genesis does have is a way to electronically reduce
>top throttle (like a valet key) which I believe is a good idea for many
>reasons, such as the following: to maximize range, letting others
>ride who you do not want to give full power to, limiting speed in rough
>conditions such as "full throttle" ocean crossings, and for fast acceleration
>activities such as tube and ski pulling where you might not ever plan to
>exceed 25 mph. The best thing about Genesis is that it is a positive
>image creator for the whole industry.
><P><A HREF="http://www.glidewell-lab.com">PLAYSAFE with custom multi-laminated
>mouthguards</A>
><P>Stephen R. Schiffler wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>No Honda is not making a PWC , but what Snapper is
>saying is I'm
><BR>dumping the Kaw and going Polaris in 99 . Hey Snapper let me know if
><BR>the Genesis still has the low fuel idle only feature . Thats the
><BR>dumbest idea and would never buy a ski with that feature . I have seen
><BR>several with full tanks of gas and bad sending units , which would
><BR>only idle . IMO in heavy traffic areas this feature is dangerous .
>I
><BR>hope Polaris abandons this feature .
><BR>
>Stingray
><P> Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:20:19 -0700, "Jim R." <jim...@msn.com>
>wrote:
><P>>Honda IS making a PWC. Count on it.
><BR>>Jim
><BR>>
><BR>>snapper wrote in message <35EDF432...@home.com>...
><BR>>>Trailer boat magazine compared two 90 hp outboards: Honda (their
>stock
><BR>>>4-stroke FI) and a new 2-stroke Ficht FI from Evinrude (too new for
><BR>>>dealers' shelves) and was the first direct comparison ever.
><BR>>>Conclusion: almost even. Evinrude had a little more acceleration
>and
><BR>>>speed, perhaps because it was a little lighter, and was quieter in
>dBs
><BR>>>too, even though Honda sounds quieter. Environmentally (based
>on mfg'
><BR>>>claims) Honda is about 5 times cleaner, but Ficht was about 4 times
><BR>>>cleaner than a conventional 2-stroke; however, Evinrude put out a
><BR>>>fraction of the carbon dioxide (but, trees like that stuff don't
><BR>>>they?). The fuel economy was about the same with 7.1
>mpg for Honda and
><BR>>>0.3 less for Evinrude-- Evinrude was most efficient at 3000 rpm while
><BR>>>Honda was best at 3500 (and consequently a little faster), but no
><BR>>>measurement was done to compare their relative efficiencies at top
><BR>>>speed. If list prices are any indication, the 2-stroke is a
>lot cheaper
><BR>>>by over a grand: the Honda alone costs about as much as a new
>Genesis.
><BR>>>If Honda ever fielded a PWC, it probably would be costly but probably
><BR>>>could find a market in the new Luxury/Touring class that Polaris
>in
><BR>>>pioneering.
><BR>>>
><BR>>
><BR>></BLOCKQUOTE>
></HTML>
>
>--------------98902AFA0C143A67B1182078--
>
snapper
"The system itself uses the simple concept of adding the optimum fuel and air mixture for the RPM's only at the time that the exhaust port is fully closed. The end result means the fuel delivery throughout the powerband is optimal, resulting in better performance, an increase in fuel economy, and less unburned fuel exiting the motor. Though this explanation sounds simple there are complex circuitry boards in a sealed brain box that control the injectors as well as several other key components of the engine. You also have the option in using the FICHT™ features to set the maximum RPM's, thereby inducing a speed limit on how fast the GENESIS can be operated."
Contest I'd like to see: Guess the size of Yamaha's new gas tank and win a trip to Japan. Probably not over 15 gals., but two 8 to 10 gal. sidesaddle tanks would make be a great tour boat with a low center of gravity for good handling. From what I've read, Polaris is ignoring the needed trim control feature, so that could be an edge for Yamaha, and they probably need it more with the 7" smaller hull.