Group K article
Prök USA
editorial states it was modified. If that is true then the main venturi was
ground away like the 785 40I carburetors.
When you think of air flow and performance. Remember it is not the size it
is the shape that matters. An example is the Mikuni 40I carburetor.
Dispite it's 40mm butterfly and 38mm main venturi is will flow more air that
a Mikuni 44 carb with 40mm main venturi. The venturi being the key to
creating velocity and in turn signal strenght.
GL
Prok USA
----------------------------
303-699-1151 ext.11
g...@prok.com
Phebus6959 wrote in message
<19990211194614...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>That was exactly their point. On their 720 motor with a weak signal, they
were
>better off running the more restrictive stock areestor box opposed to
running
>with the box top off and some of the screens out. More vacum= more signal.
>
>Rick Surkin
>XPL 951
>phebu...@aol.com
Dac878
If you have a carb with a weak signal it is better to run a more restrictive
arrestor? Is this right? If this is true would it not be pointless to have no
element areestors? Sorry for all the question but I'm very new to engines and
all really want to learn all I can Thank
you
David Chapman
Phebus6959
Johnny K
LOL
JK
Prök USA <g...@prok.com> wrote in article
<7a0ji7$1...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>...
> Be cautious not to take the statements at face value. The carburetor in
the
> editorial states it was modified. If that is true then the main venturi
was
> ground away like the 785 40I carburetors.
>
> When you think of air flow and performance. Remember it is not the size
it
> is the shape that matters. An example is the Mikuni 40I carburetor.
> Dispite it's 40mm butterfly and 38mm main venturi is will flow more air
that
> a Mikuni 44 carb with 40mm main venturi. The venturi being the key to
> creating velocity and in turn signal strenght.
>
> GL
> Prok USA
> ----------------------------
> 303-699-1151 ext.11
> g...@prok.com
>
> Phebus6959 wrote in message
> <19990211194614...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
Groupklemm
The 951 "I" body tests outlined in our document were performed with a modified
version, a stock version with the choke plate out, and the stock version with
the choke plates in. The text in our document reffered to tests of the stock
carbs with the choke in. With the choke plates in, the 6700 lean spot was
"managable" on an otherwise stock motor. However on a 951 motor with slightly
increased compression and/or porting, the overall power was greatly improved,
but the 6700 lean condition became much more pronounced. Since we wanted to
create a complete kit (for sale), we didn't invest lots of time developing the
inlet hardware for use on an otherwise stock motor.
GL is likely correct when he says that the atomizer shape is the important
factor. That said, during our testing we observed a consistant trend of lower
signal accomanying carb throat diamiter increases (where the same atomizer
design is used).
We also attempted to alter the atomizer design and location of the 46 I ...
none of the mods we tested were able to resolve the 6700 lean spot. If someone
else could figure that one out, they could sell alot of it.
Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: "Prök USA" <g...@prok.com>
>Date: 2/11/99 11:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <7a0ji7$1...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
jetski junkies
>
> Groupklemm wrote:
> >
> > Rick and GL,
> > The 951 "I" body tests outlined in our document were performed with a modified
> > version, a stock version with the choke plate out, and the stock version with
> > the choke plates in. The text in our document reffered to tests of the stock
> > carbs with the choke in. With the choke plates in, the 6700 lean spot was
> > "managable" on an otherwise stock motor. However on a 951 motor with slightly
> > increased compression and/or porting, the overall power was greatly improved,
> > but the 6700 lean condition became much more pronounced. Since we wanted to
> > create a complete kit (for sale), we didn't invest lots of time developing the
> > inlet hardware for use on an otherwise stock motor.
> > GL is likely correct when he says that the atomizer shape is the important
> > factor. That said, during our testing we observed a consistant trend of lower
> > signal accomanying carb throat diamiter increases (where the same atomizer
> > design is used).
> >
> > We also attempted to alter the atomizer design and location of the 46 I ...
> > none of the mods we tested were able to resolve the 6700 lean spot. If someone
> > else could figure that one out, they could sell alot of it.
> > Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>
Did NOVI have anything to do with the tests performed? Or where these
tests done by you alone, in your shop? You keep saying "we" Just
wondering how biased, since
NOVI seamed to have by far, way better flow #s then the rest.
Just Curious????
Perry
P.S. Never got a reply the first time I ask this.
MR-HPT
difference in velocity? Harry talks with both sides of his mouth. He said that this
test is unbiased. Why then he refused to test my units employing PROK inserts and did
not include SRE carburetors which are used on Bo's machines. I smell rotten fish. I bet
next thing we will read that only certain after market unit is capable supplying
induction with out any signal loss. I also make prediction that you will not get any
answers, if you do it will say that THEY do not disclose technical information to any
one. I heard this story be for from the horses mouth. George HPT Sport USA
Groupklemm
Never saw a post on this thread asking this question ...but it's a valid
question we expected to hear plenty of (given the data).
Novi (like Red Top and Full Spectrum) was kind enough to provide carbs for
testing...but that was the extent of their involvment with the tests.
That said, we do not own a Superflow 600. We had one of our aquaintances (that
owns one) do our tests. This gentleman is not in the pwc business, but he is
familiar with it. He agreed to do the tests so long as we protected his
privacy (he lacks the time to put up with the phone calls). Since he wasn't
charging for the tests ... we agreed.
This is the reason our document goes into such depth with regard to
standardized protocol for the tests. We wanted anyone with a Superflow 600 to
be able to reproduce our data ... and anyone can.
After we gathered all the data, we wondered why the folks at Novi and Full
spectrum havn't already presented data like ours (we are told they both own
Superflow 600s) ...who knows why they haven't.
jetski junkies
>
> Good point Perry. Who is this we? And how in this world there could be so much
> difference in velocity? Harry talks with both sides of his mouth. He said that this
> test is unbiased. Why then he refused to test my units employing PROK inserts and did
> not include SRE carburetors which are used on Bo's machines. I smell rotten fish. I bet
> next thing we will read that only certain after market unit is capable supplying
> induction with out any signal loss. I also make prediction that you will not get any
> answers, if you do it will say that THEY do not disclose technical information to any
> one. I heard this story be for from the horses mouth. George HPT Sport USA
>
I was told by someone "in the know" and well know and respected on the
NG. That these test were done by NOVI. And Harry helped round up the
carbs to be tested. I just wanted to see if he would admit it, or take
full credit for himself. He didn't take full credit, but he won't tell
us NOVI did the flow testing as I was told.
Perry
WHardy1902
>much
>difference in velocity? Harry talks with both sides of his mouth. He said
>that this
>test is unbiased.
Izzint it tyme foor yoo too crawe baak undoor yoor roc?
> Why then he refused to test my units employing PROK
>inserts
Kood it possiblee bee becawse yoor a jurk.
> and did
>not include SRE carburetors which are used on Bo's machines.
> I smell rotten fish.
Half yoo evur tried Right Guard? Don't yoo wish everybody did.
> I bet next thing we will read that only certain after market unit is capable
>supplying
>induction with out any signal loss. I also make prediction that you will not
>get any answers, if you do it will say that THEY do not disclose technical
>information to any one.
Correction,,,,,, Thay doo knot discloze technickle infoormateshun two ennywon
with $hit foor brainz.
> I heard this story be for from the horses mouth.
And now wee heer it agen frum the hoorsez A$$.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
Groupklemm
Instead of whining like a baby, why don't you simply run some 20" cfm and
signal tests of your own, and post the data...include the SRE carbs if you
like.
If you think my test process was jaded, do it better (I know you won't because
you prefer to whine rather than work).
I'm looking for your data George. Also still looking for that SAE paper you
wrote 15 years ago about pwc carbs ... still can't locate it.
Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: MR-HPT <hpts...@apex.net>
>Good point Perry. Who is this we? And how in this world there could be so
>much
>difference in velocity? Harry talks with both sides of his mouth. He said
>that this
>test is unbiased. Why then he refused to test my units employing PROK
>inserts and did
Groupklemm
I'm not sure what qualifies in your book as "in the know"...but it sounds like
you need a new info source.
During the production of our document we shared some draft copies with a few
folks to preview(and asked for full confidentiality). All three asked who was
doing the flow testing. Given the controversial nature of the subject, we
figured there might be some "leaking" of information. With this, we told one
that the tests were being done by Boysen, another was told Tru-Cad, and the
other was told Novi. A couple of weeks later, Andrew Buck called demanding to
know if Novi was doing our tests. As with you, we confirmed nothing ... and
simply let him rant. We would like to thank Andrew Buck fore helping us to
locate our information "air leak". We suspect that since that call, Andrew has
been telling everyone "in the know" that Novi performed the tests (we heard it
from someone that heard it from someone who heard it from...etc).
The truth is that the testing was done by a Superflow 600 @ 20". If your
friend is "really" in the know, then he knows that any Superflow 600 on earth
will yeild the same data we got.
Whining about the test venue is merely a lame attempt to discount the
text....so what else is new.
Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
kandrews
brothers life?
Kevin
Groupklemm wrote:
>
Groupklemm
It's not my place to swear my brother's life on anything.
After this morning's brief and vulger phone call from Andrew Buck, I am a bit
sensitive to swearing.
Even more so when the return address to your message has a "default" prefix
that I do not recognize.
I will swear to this...no one has flow bench data that does not mirror the data
on out new carb document.
If your intersested in carb data, that should meet all your needs. If you are
interested in a "Kenneth Starr" analysis of events ... I can't help you.
Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: kandrews <a...@fastrak.net>
>Date: 2/16/99 12:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <36C9CBCF...@fastrak.net>
kandrews
Bill a simple question, did you have sexuall relations with Monika, Bill replied
no' after all a BJ is not sexuall relations. Now my question to you is are you
having a relationship with Novi like Bill had with Monika?
Personally I dont care but inquiring minds want to know. After all if Novi is the
one who did the tests maybe they spent a little more time on there carbs instead of
there biggest competitor.
Your freind and still little Buddy
Kevin Andrews
PS: I still love you and you are still my Hero.
Groupklemm wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Kevin
Kenneth Starr
Sorry, to butt in this subject. I feel for Andrew Buck of BUCKSHOT RACING just a
little, being that NO ONE informed him this test was even taken place. Well, I guess
Hillary didn't know what Bill was doing either!
I was just curious if someone were to stop by NOVI, would we find a BLUE SMOCK under
the FLOW BENCH with any STAINS on it?
Or, will this have to go to the Grand Jury to decide whos stain it really is?
Harry you are still my "GOD of WATERCRAFT"
Kenneth Starr
Mark Clemons
I disagree with the negative response to the GK carb/air
flow bench test.
It appears, you immediately assumed (due to the assailants
history with Harry) that it was horseshit, because it came
from Harry Klemm. This is a very closed minded way to view
any aspect of life... much less, technical data.
The real irony of this whole situation is the time put forth
by Group K to test these carbs, write an article about it,
and SHARE the data with anyone, including competetors...
only to get slammed by others in this NG. Of course,
consider the source of the abuse.
Even IF it was biased, it's a HELL of alot more information
than I had about these carbs yesterday. If these carb
companies want to compare digits, then why don't they state
such simple information when I go and plop down bucks for
their product?
In any case, thank you Group K.
Mark Clemons
MadHouse Endurance Racing
MR-HPT wrote:
>
> Good point Perry. Who is this we? And how in this world there could be so much
> difference in velocity? Harry talks with both sides of his mouth. He said that this
> test is unbiased. Why then he refused to test my units employing PROK inserts and did
> not include SRE carburetors which are used on Bo's machines. I smell rotten fish. I bet
> next thing we will read that only certain after market unit is capable supplying
> induction with out any signal loss. I also make prediction that you will not get any
> answers, if you do it will say that THEY do not disclose technical information to any
> one. I heard this story be for from the horses mouth. George HPT Sport USA
>
> jetski junkies wrote:
>
> > jetski junkies wrote:
> > >
> > > Groupklemm wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Rick and GL,
> > > > The 951 "I" body tests outlined in our document were performed with a modified
> > > > version, a stock version with the choke plate out, and the stock version with
> > > > the choke plates in. The text in our document reffered to tests of the stock
> > > > carbs with the choke in. With the choke plates in, the 6700 lean spot was
> > > > "managable" on an otherwise stock motor. However on a 951 motor with slightly
> > > > increased compression and/or porting, the overall power was greatly improved,
> > > > but the 6700 lean condition became much more pronounced. Since we wanted to
> > > > create a complete kit (for sale), we didn't invest lots of time developing the
> > > > inlet hardware for use on an otherwise stock motor.
> > > > GL is likely correct when he says that the atomizer shape is the important
> > > > factor. That said, during our testing we observed a consistant trend of lower
> > > > signal accomanying carb throat diamiter increases (where the same atomizer
> > > > design is used).
> > > >
> > > > We also attempted to alter the atomizer design and location of the 46 I ...
> > > > none of the mods we tested were able to resolve the 6700 lean spot. If someone
> > > > else could figure that one out, they could sell alot of it.
> > > > Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
> > >
> >
> >
Jim & Paulette Beasley
go back!!!
Go to Group K's site at least once a week...the best pwc technical web site period!!!
Fagan Pace
>Mark Clemons wrote:If these carb
>companies want to compare digits, then
>why don't they state such simple
>information when I go and plop down
>bucks for their product?
>In any case, thank you Group K.
Fagan Pace
Groupklemm
lol Harry
Groupklemm
Thank you for the kind words.
Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: pace...@webtv.net (Fagan Pace)
>Date: 2/16/99 9:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <28864-36...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
MR-HPT
involved with simple flow bench test? There is no posted data related to
dimensioning or design what so ever. Any one can measure existing product. So
what's the big deal Harry? I think that you are trying to create monopoly with hand
fool of slick sales people. Well folks it's all over avery after market
manufacturer should close their doors and let GK select, recommend and produce
induction system for rest of the world. Harry you are silly man, not long o go you
reducible my article related to flow bench work and now you become a expert tester.
I bet any money that you do not even own the flow bench. For what it's worth. If
you really want to help people in tuning process then spent time testing each unit
on several engines and then post real data. George HPT Sport USA
http://www.hpt-sport.com
MikeMan
For years now we have been making high performance carburetors with
great success.We take great pride in customer satisfaction and your
attempt to discredit us only proves that you do have some kind of vested
interest.As far as your technical approach article,you could find all
this information in any two stroke tuning book.Instead of being biased
or unfairly criticizing someone elses product line,why don't you come up
with your own.I think it's great to see new products and welcome
competition from the likes of Novi,SRE or whoever can be innovative
enough to design a product that performs.As far as your carb test goes I
don't care if you did it at Novi or not,the thing that bothers me is not
being honest and you and I both know the truth.Harry I have lost all
respect for you now.If you wanted to do a true test we should take the
carbs to Mikuni and have them tested on their G-test machine since a
carb is made to mix air and fuel,not just air.
A good example is your vacume test,if there is a higher vacume,that
carb would require a smaller jet than the carb with lower vacume.In the
case of your test my 46 had a vacume of 34 while the Novi 46 had a
vacume of 66 thus requiring the Novi to run smaller jets,WRONG.These
carbs both perform very well on XP 800 motors,but require different
jetting.That doesn't go with this air flow test thus proving my point
that this information is of no use (Buckshot 125 low 105 high, Novi 135
low 125 high).If we were all competing with flow benches and Dynos I am
sure Polaris would have won 785 pro and even Tigershark would have won
somthing.The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
results are confirmed by winning races.Buckshot carbs won four of six
classes at World Finals in the pro class(Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas
Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more
expert and novice riders than I can list.How many did GroupK win?
If anyone wants to do their own testing,we offer a 30 day money back
performance guarantee.Now how is that for customer satisfaction Harry.
Andrew Buck
Buckshot Racing
Dan DePardo
MikeMan wrote:
>
> Harry,
> For years now we have been making high performance carburetors with
> great success.We take great pride in customer satisfaction and your
> attempt to discredit us only proves that you do have some kind of vested
> interest.
Hi Andrew;
Are we reading the same technical document? I for one did not get the
impression that Harry was "Buckshot bashing". Granted nobody, myself
included, likes to see their work cast in an unfavorable light, but from
what I read, (with my limited knowledge and understanding of airflow and
carburetion) there were no real surprises in the test results, although
I have to admit that I did expect to see your BRM carbs perform as well
as the Novis.
> If you wanted to do a true test we should take the
> carbs to Mikuni and have them tested on their G-test machine since a
> carb is made to mix air and fuel,not just air.
Do you have test results on your carbs from Mikuni?
I spoken with them about a couple of things in the past, and they *do*
hold you in high regard, "Mikuni" basically told me you were the guy to
ask when it came to hi-po mods to their carbs.
> A good example is your vacume test,if there is a higher vacume,that
> carb would require a smaller jet than the carb with lower vacume.In the
> case of your test my 46 had a vacume of 34 while the Novi 46 had a
> vacume of 66 thus requiring the Novi to run smaller jets,WRONG.These
> carbs both perform very well on XP 800 motors,but require different
> jetting.That doesn't go with this air flow test thus proving my point
> that this information is of no use (Buckshot 125 low 105 high, Novi 135
> low 125 high).
The above jetting numbers are for carbs using the same flame arrester,
on exactly the same engine, pump set-up, etc, and were tuned to produce
similar EGT, piston wash, etc? If so, I see your point...if not, kinda
an "apples and oranges" comparison.
> If we were all competing with flow benches and Dynos I am sure Polaris
> would have won 785 pro and even Tigershark would have won
> somthing.The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
> results are confirmed by winning races.
I can't disagree with that, but I also read plenty of disclaimers in Harry's
document, and I feel that he did not make any claims that his tests were the
final word on every aspect of high performance PWC carbs.
Here's an example of what I mean: (exerpt of the Group K article)
"There are many "side issues" related to carb function that we intentionally
did not include in this document. These issues are not unimportant, however
they were unimportant with respect to our primary focus subject of full open
carb signal. We would ask readers to strongly consider the writings of others,
with respect to the many subjects we have not covered here."
You have to admit, that merely doing the "jet signal" tests that he performed
on "Mr. X's" Superflow, and writing the whole thing up (while walking the fine
line of not showing favoritism) was quite the task. Publishing specific data
comparing, in whatever manner, the potential performance of the carbs in question
is a minefield that for some reason nobody else has been brave (or stupid :-) )
enough to walk across...maybe Buckshot should run their own tests and publish
the results? I know I'd be very interested in reading about your test method and
results.
> Buckshot carbs won four of six classes at World Finals in the pro class
> (Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,
> Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more expert and novice riders than I can list.
I don't think anyone doubts that you build great carbs.
> How many did GroupK win?
In light of their performance in Harry's test, how wins did Novi score on tour
in the various classes? Quite a few I think.
> If anyone wants to do their own testing,we offer a 30 day money back
> performance guarantee.Now how is that for customer satisfaction Harry.
I have a question related to Harry's carb test...(that is if I haven't managed
to completely piss you off...(grin)) what's your feeling concerning the vapor
separation deal? Do you think air introduced into the fuel supply prior to
carburetion is that big of a problem? Does Buckshot offer some sort of "vapor
separator" similar to the "rail" and remote air/fuel separators available from Novi?
Asbestos shorts....engaged!
Dan "Fuelish Emulsion" DePardo
Waveblast9
Steve Kanowjetski
Spot on !
SteveK
On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:27:34 -0700, Mark Clemons
<als...@futureone.com> wrote:
<snip>
>than I had about these carbs yesterday. If these carb
>companies want to compare digits, then why don't they state
>such simple information when I go and plop down bucks for
>their product?
>
>In any case, thank you Group K.
>
Steve Kanowjetski
While I don't agree with people smoking Harry for his excellent work I
also don't agree with smoking George's. He has excellent info on that
web site as well, and perhaps even though a little outdated he may
find the time to add to it and share this info to us.
I'll be really surprised if ANYBODY will want to post information ever
again in fear of being belittled by a minority.
What happened to adult constructive critisism?
SteveK
Simon Wallace
If the aftermarket carb companies are so arrogant to think that we
will all plop down $1K+ for a set of their carbs without valid testing
results and data, they won't be getting my business.
It's easy to bash something that's been done without doing it yourself
- so why don't these critics put their money where their mouth is?
Mark Clemons <als...@futureone.com> wrote:
>Actually,
>I disagree with the negative response to the GK carb/air
>flow bench test.
>
>It appears, you immediately assumed (due to the assailants
>history with Harry) that it was horseshit, because it came
>from Harry Klemm. This is a very closed minded way to view
>any aspect of life... much less, technical data.
>
>The real irony of this whole situation is the time put forth
>by Group K to test these carbs, write an article about it,
>and SHARE the data with anyone, including competetors...
>only to get slammed by others in this NG. Of course,
>consider the source of the abuse.
>
>Even IF it was biased, it's a HELL of alot more information
>than I had about these carbs yesterday. If these carb
>companies want to compare digits, then why don't they state
>such simple information when I go and plop down bucks for
>their product?
>
>In any case, thank you Group K.
>
>Mark Clemons
>MadHouse Endurance Racing
>
>
>
>
>
>> > > > Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > Did NOVI have anything to do with the tests performed? Or where these
>> > tests done by you alone, in your shop? You keep saying "we" Just
>> > wondering how biased, since
>> > NOVI seamed to have by far, way better flow #s then the rest.
>> >
>> > Just Curious????
>> > Perry
>> >
>> > P.S. Never got a reply the first time I ask this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sim...@spammersdiezip.net.au
Sydney
Remove the antispam message to reply via e-mail.
http://www.yamaha.com.au/marine/wb700a_model.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RKT178
stock jetted carb is goin to perform anywhere near the performance of those
carbs
BrackneyC
That went out as we became an "on-line" society. Ever wonder why some of the
posters find it so easy to be overly critical (and at the same time offensive)?
It is because the likelyhood of a face-to-face meeting is almost never going to
happen. Anyway, if we keep it civil, we will always have that going for us.
Take care
Simon Wallace
You miss the point. Some of us are more intelligent than just putting
$1K down on a set of carbs that we've been told "work really well".
Before putting good money down to buy performance carbs, I want to see
the numbers. It seems that some people have a hard time dealing with
this.
Groupklemm
Thank you for the civil language in your response letter. It was a refreshing
break from the combative and vulgar telephone calls I have received from you in
the past.
You apparently feel that our new document "Racing Carburetors 1999" was
intended to be a biased effort to singularly discredit Buckshot Racing. Please
know that I have better things to do with my time than spend 4 months creating
a 15 page document to discredit anyone or anything. Perhaps you and I are
reading different documents. My document explains the concept, measurement,
and effects of "signal"'. Nowhere in those 15 pages do I call any aftermarket
carb bad or good. The closest I come is in the following text:
"During the '95-'96 racing seasons, one of the most popular inlet systems
around were the Buckshot Magnum carbs. These carbs were widely used on many
different engine platforms with good success."
I'm am sincerely sorry if you found these words offensive and discrediting
toward the Buckshot brand name … my apologies.
As you told me in a recent telephone call, "you better be careful what you
write" … I took your advice. While drafting this document, I was very careful
about my wording, and the goals of my text. Unfortunately, the only thing
that I cannot alter for you is the laws of physics that pre-determine flow
bench data.
Your claim that the data in our article could be found in "any two stroke
tuning book", is baloney!! I am in possession of virtually every 2 cycle
oriented publication in the last few decades. "NONE" have detailed the
measurement or effects of signal as they relate to the carbs used on pwcs, nor
in the application of high performance pwcs. If you (or George Grabowski) know
of such articles, please direct the readers of rec.sport.jetski to those
specific titles that you believe so common … WE HAVE NOT SEEN 'EM!!
I was very suprised to read that you think the only "true" tests of carbs could
be done one a "G" test machine. For those not familiar, a "G" test machine is
a (very expensive) device / room that has the apparatus to effectively bridge
the information gap between on-water fuel-flow testing, and flow bench testing.
In the USA, there are only three. Two are owned by Mikuni America, and the
third is owned by Yoshimura (they got it from Mikuni). These machines are so
few in number because they cost a whole lot more than any flow bench.
No aftermarket pwc carb maker (including Buckshot) owns a "G" test machine.
No aftermarket pwc carb maker (including Buckshot) conducts their testing on a
"G" test machine. The reason we did not conduct our "standardized" tests on a
"G" test machine is because the data would have been un-verifiable and
un-reproducible by anyone in the industry … and therefore useless data. If
Buckshot Racing considers "G" testing to be the only valid evaluation, I would
strongly urge you to consider setting the industry standard by getting one.
The truth is that "everyone" in the pwc carb business conducts their testing
on flow benches. This flow bench data is very useful and telling … not to
mention very reproducible. That is why we used it. The standards and
apparatus we utilized were set forth by Super Flow (the makers of most flow
benches). Andrew, if you have a test protocol that is more accurate, or more
relevant, than those set forth by Super Flow, I am certain that Super Flow and
the SAE would love to hear about them.
We agree with you that on-water data is what's most important … that is why
we included so much info about our fuel flow meter tests to support our text.
We also agree with your points about race wins … we have won 14 pro endurance
titles in the last two years … and no machine we constructed used Buckshot
carbs. However we do not believe this means that Buckshot carbs are not good
.... It merely proves that pro titles can be won with carbs of any make. We
don't take much stock in tour racing because the entire tour entails less full
throttle operating time than a couple of weekends at the endurance races.
Perhaps the most interesting part of your letter was your inference that
different levels of carb signal mean only that different jetting is required.
You seem to infer that the actual signal number is not particularly important.
This view is in direct disagreement with virtually all the carb design
information that I have encountered. It seems to me that a view so different
would deserve a more thorough explanation. If you were to post a detailed
technical document to your website explaining this view, I would gladly link it
to my own document (how's that for cooperation?)
Now finished with all the proper pleasantries … let me share a few of my
"personal" opinions.
The folks on rec.sport.jetski are not impressed by your race wins … they are
impressed by your participation. If you want to impress us, you will have to
do a lot better than a single "drive-by" posting under someone else's screen
name / e-mail address.
Rec.sport.jetski can be a tough room from time to time. If you don't have
the stuff it takes to show up regularly … don't expect your posts to get any
"regular" respect. As for me losing "your" respect … I'm not worried about
losing the respect of industry folks that begin their telephone conversations
with "What is your f__kin' problem?"… This sort of respect I can afford to
lose.
Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: MikeMan <mike...@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: 2/17/99 12:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <36CB15...@ix.netcom.com>
>
>Harry,
>For years now we have been making high performance carburetors with
>great success.We take great pride in customer satisfaction and your
>attempt to discredit us only proves that you do have some kind of vested
>interest.As far as your technical approach article,you could find all
>this information in any two stroke tuning book.Instead of being biased
>or unfairly criticizing someone elses product line,why don't you come up
>with your own.I think it's great to see new products and welcome
>competition from the likes of Novi,SRE or whoever can be innovative
>enough to design a product that performs.As far as your carb test goes I
>don't care if you did it at Novi or not,the thing that bothers me is not
>being honest and you and I both know the truth.Harry I have lost all
>respect for you now.If you wanted to do a true test we should take the
>carbs to Mikuni and have them tested on their G-test machine since a
>carb is made to mix air and fuel,not just air.
> A good example is your vacume test,if there is a higher vacume,that
>carb would require a smaller jet than the carb with lower vacume.In the
>case of your test my 46 had a vacume of 34 while the Novi 46 had a
>vacume of 66 thus requiring the Novi to run smaller jets,WRONG.These
>carbs both perform very well on XP 800 motors,but require different
>jetting.That doesn't go with this air flow test thus proving my point
>that this information is of no use (Buckshot 125 low 105 high, Novi 135
>low 125 high).If we were all competing with flow benches and Dynos I am
>sure Polaris would have won 785 pro and even Tigershark would have won
>somthing.The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
>results are confirmed by winning races.Buckshot carbs won four of six
>classes at World Finals in the pro class(Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas
>Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more
>expert and novice riders than I can list.How many did GroupK win?
>If anyone wants to do their own testing,we offer a 30 day money back
>performance guarantee.Now how is that for customer satisfaction Harry.
>
> Andrew Buck
> Buckshot Racing
>
Jim R.
Jim
Fagan Pace
throttle shaft bushing replacement in a set of Buckshots and no
response. Harry and the entire crew has always answered any concern on a
timely basis often involving products or services they didn't even sell
me. That's the kind of relationship that builds respect both personal
and professional. Same good treatment from Bill O- thanks guys! No flame
about buckshots themselves Andrew, I personally use and like your carbs.
Fagan Pace
Jim & Paulette Beasley
guys at Factory Pipe have been very helpful and knowledgeable, i always pay
particular attention to anything these guys write or post, thanks guys!
Sincerely, Jim Beasley
Mark Clemons
I've known the answer since I've bought the first
aftermarket scoop grate that needed grinding so that the
hole would line up. Yup, it was all very clear that day.
However, no one ever does too much about it.
regards,
Mark C
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com wrote:
>
> In article <36CA3726...@futureone.com>,
> Mark Clemons <als...@futureone.com> wrote:
> > then why don't they state
> > such simple information when I go and plop down bucks for
> > their product?
> >
>
> Come on, you've been racing long enough to know the answer to that! It's easy,
> there are a number of reasons, but three jump to my mind immediately:
> 1) They open themselves up for liability if you don't get the gains stated
> 2) Posting truthful performance numbers would reveal that the aftermarket
> industry is chock full of grandiose and downright fraudulent claims
> 3) Posting actual comparative numbers may reveal that their product is not the
> best
>
> The aftermarket industry is largely a crapshoot. That's why it's best to rely
> on the Harry Klemms, the Bill O'Neals, and maybe even the George Grabowskis
> or whoever it is that you trust, of the industry.
>
> ---
>
> Bruce Holms
> bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2801/
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
mike...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
> results are confirmed by winning races.Buckshot carbs won four of six
> classes at World Finals in the pro class(Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas
> Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more
> expert and novice riders than I can list.
Buckshot carbs won the races??? Not that I particularly care about this
debate, but I suspect that the riders had "a little" more to do with the wins
than the carbs. If that's not the case maybe we should just race remote
controlled PWC's around the course.
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
Mark Clemons <als...@futureone.com> wrote:
> then why don't they state
> such simple information when I go and plop down bucks for
> their product?
>
Come on, you've been racing long enough to know the answer to that! It's easy,
there are a number of reasons, but three jump to my mind immediately:
1) They open themselves up for liability if you don't get the gains stated
2) Posting truthful performance numbers would reveal that the aftermarket
industry is chock full of grandiose and downright fraudulent claims
3) Posting actual comparative numbers may reveal that their product is not the
best
The aftermarket industry is largely a crapshoot. That's why it's best to rely
on the Harry Klemms, the Bill O'Neals, and maybe even the George Grabowskis
or whoever it is that you trust, of the industry.
RKT178
many problems with his internet server......and by the way Harry i am impressed
with those wins obviously if its out there in the best boats with the best
riders the carburators are doing there job don't you think??????
RKT178
very very well...could care less about dyno numbers and all that ..i want what
performs on the track
Rokybuster
>Date: 2/18/99 10:37 AM Easter
>Please
>know that I have better things to do with my time than spend 4 months
>creating
>a 15 page document to discredit anyone or anything.
>My document explains the concept, measurement,
>and effects of "signal"'.
This isn't completely true Mr. Klemm. Ive seen the originail text sent to you
by Mr. Brazina of which has been much plagiarized in your "15 page document".
I have also seen these same carbs sucked threw a Super Flow 600 showing
conflicting results to yours, If you don't completly understand the testing
base lines with this equiptment and don't throughly inspect each needle and
seat your tests may be flawed. I'm wondering if you would be willing to post a
bond as collateral to back up your result findings ? THE BEST CARBS OUT THERE
DON'T COME ANADIZED IN COOL COLORS. Harry, make the trip to our 600 and I'll
show you reality. Mathematics is a language without lies.
Groupklemm
The fastest "Superstock" race boat at world finals was Blair Gillespe's GP 1200
... he ran Novi's. No dyno was required.
"The" class in '99 is open superstock ... all the carbon "funny boats" are gone
now. There is plenty of time to see what will be the cutting edge "this year".
Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: rkt...@aol.com (RKT178)
>Date: 2/18/99 6:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990218202458...@ng-fs1.aol.com>
Crank Ace
>Date: 2/18/99 5:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
>
>Buckshot carbs won the races??? Not that I particularly care about this
>debate, but I suspect that the riders had "a little" more to do with the wins
>than the carbs. If that's not the case maybe we should just race remote
>controlled PWC's around the course.
>
>
>---
>
>
>Bruce Holms
>bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2801/
>
This is not a pimp for Buckshot Carbs, but whatever parts and rider that win
World Championships, win as a combination. In this day and age it takes a
"Complete Package" to win championships.
Kurtis Seebold
RKT178
triple pipes at world finals also Harry the pipes had what i believe the most
to do with the speed of Blairs
boat....i believe that Novi's and Buckshots are great carbs..i have had nothing
but good fortune with Buckshots and have always been well taken care of by
Buckshot racing which is why i run their carbs despite the obvious performance
gains
Groupklemm
I'm not sure what rock you crawled out from under ... but if you plan to make
statements like this ... you better come up with a "real" name to attach to
your uninformed posts.
My entire document was already completed when I "accepted" the BMR carbs from
Ed Brazini to include in our data table. BMR sent us "NO" (LET ME REPEAT THAT
FOR YOU)..."NO" meaningful text of any kind... much less anything worth
plagerizing. You better get your facts straighter than that if you intent to
take me to task.
If you have data different than ours ... that's great. POST IT ... OR SHUT UP.
If you really knew ANTHING about signal testing , you would know that the
needle and seat are not factors.
Regarding your request for a bond ... no problem. My bond is my previous work
and reputation ... who (in the nameless world) are you ... and what is your
bond??
I strain to think that anyone smart enough to compitently operate a Superflow
600 would be stupid enough to draft such a post. I further stain to believe
that anyone who lacks the guts to post their real name and qualifications could
show ANYONE anything about reality.
I anxiously look forward to your website and your 15+ page document about
"reality". Maybe you could see your way clear to post a "real" name to it as
well.
Harry Klemm Group K
Rokybuster
>Mr. rokybuster,
>I'm not sure what rock you crawled out from under ... but if you plan to make
>statements like this ... you better come up with a "real" name to attach to
>your uninformed posts.
>
Mr. Klemm, taking these childish shots "what rock you crawled out from under"
doesn't change reality in the form of plagerizing or incorrect test data. AGAIN
Mr.klemm visit Ed Brazina and see what you some how missed. BTW: what does my
name have to do with reality. I'm sure Mr. Brazina would be more than happy to
fax you or anyone else accurate test results on his carbs or any other tested
carbs,(AS HE DID I) just ask. something else Harry, all of these guys with
their SF600 have forgot more about carbs than you know. Just because you have a
excellent working knowledge of two stroke performance, doesn't mean you
haven't assest data incorrectly. We are only offering you a second chance at
getting it correct. This would help your racing effort as well. Looking
forward to hearing from you "or your rock". If you e-mail me directly I would
be more than happy to speak with you. Have you ever asked your self WHY
everyone has an on line name as opposed to stating thier name? There's alot of
nuts under some of those rocks out there buddy. and I'm not trying to sell
anythong in here!
>If you really knew ANTHING
about signal testing , you would know that the
>needle and seat are not factors.
Am I reading this correctly? Were you even in the same room while these tests
were being don't ?
Tony Ernst
Crank Ace wrote:
>
>
> This is not a pimp for Buckshot Carbs, but whatever parts and rider that win
> World Championships, win as a combination. In this day and age it takes a
> "Complete Package" to win championships.
> Kurtis Seebold
Not to mention that many stickers on the boats doesn't reflect what's under the
hood !
I don't understand why so many people try to flame Harry's post. He shares with
us his testing and that's really valuable. I don't see tuner like Bill Chapin,
Dan Lamey, and other sharing their testings. So hats off to Harry.
RKT178
and speed hadling and plain making the boats best there ever could possibly be
you would know without a doubt there is no comparing
Group K to Dan Lamey or Bill Chapin i woldn't even put Group K in the same
sentnce as those two awesome builders..don't get me wrong Group K will give
you ok performance
with reliability which may be desireable for offshore style racing..but when it
comes to closed course racing where all the big boys are ......there is no
comparison..those builders do not need to post on the newsgroup they get paid
to do what they do best ..they dont need to put a bunch of results on a
newsgroup to try to make their living and keep there shop going.....these are
two way different watercraft builders so don't try to compare them to each
other
X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer)
Translation=too good for r.s.js?
dc
W.S. O'Neal
Did it ever cross your mind that some of us enjoy the newsgroup and the many
friends that we have made here. If I had to rely on this NG to make a
living, I'd have been in another business a long time ago.
FYI, Dan Lamey does post to this group now and then, and Bill Chapin and
Glenn Dickenson (co-owners of R&D racing) has their employees do it for
them, on company time, I might add.
Are you of the impression that because I (and others)spend my (our) time
here in the mornings and evenings, that I may have won more than 5 World
Championships at the WF's in 1998 ? If that was true, maybe I should leave
the group and win 8 next year :)
There are several others here who have won some gold on tour and at the WF's
too.
I agree, I have not seen many GroupK boats winning National and World
Championships in closed course, but Harry's Army does pretty well in his
chosen field which is endurance racing. I know the difference between the
two very well, having won at both. If you think just because Lamey or Chapin
are good at CC motor building, that they can just waltz into enduro and
clean up, think again. There is a huge difference between building a motor
that needs to last 10 minutes and one that needs to last a season of
endurance racing and deliver some fuel milage too. Having spent 5 years
racing on tour, I've seen how long those factory pro twins and triples last,
sometimes being replaced between rounds and up to 3 times durning one event.
Neither the budgets, nor the racing format will allow that in endurance
racing.
Will Ross make better pipes if he leaves too. Or, Kurtis better crankshafts
( for Dan Lamey's motors) or win more than 3 championships, as he did at the
finals ?
I just don't get your correlation of being a better anything, because you
think they do not participate here.
That would be like saying that Ruis, Jacobs and Motz will win all of the
classes next year, because Dustin, Mac Cluggage, Sheldon read and post to
this NG.
I , for one, don't buy that logic.
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
RKT178 wrote in message <19990219050650...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
Seadooracr
Harry I guess you and Bill and all of us on this group don't even know what
HP is, but we know how to work a computer.
Just maybe that's the problem those guys not on the newsgroup don't know how
to work a computer!
If any of you happen to read this my Mom 67 is learning and she just loves
her email, my point is it is never to late to learn.
Kevin
P.S. I was careful not to mention Dan Lamie and Bill Chapin in the same
sentence as Harry Klemm.
Oops I guess I did.
<rkt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990219050650...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
Groupklemm
I spoke with Ed Brazina this morning. He has no idea who you are ... and he
aknowledges that his "data" (you claim I plagerized) was no more than a cover
letter (I have it if you would like a fax copy).... you obviously don't have
the info you claim to have.
You are correct that Ed B. is a good and compitent guy. He was understandably
shocked that anyone would draft your original post.
Ed has a name ... and credibility. I have a name ... and credibility. Your
real name has nothing to do with reality ... just your credibility. When you
take pot shots from behind a screen name, you lower yourself to the same level
of all the "nuts out there" that you refer to. There is one easy way to change
that situation.
I lack the need to get a masters degree in Superflow 600s. That should be the
job of folks that manufacture and market carburetors ... We do not make carbs.
My document is not intended to establish Group K as carb experts. It was
intended to describe the subject of "signal".
All these guys with their SF600s may be as smart as you claim ... but NONE of
them have ever posted an article anywhere that covers the subject of signal.
What they "know" is meaningless unless they share that data. Until that
happens, the document we have posted on our website is the cutting edge of
"available" information.
If it your intent to have a civil exchange by email, you should not begin that
exchange with an insulting "drive by" newsgroup post, based on info you don't
have straight.
Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: rokyb...@aol.com (Rokybuster)
Phebus6959
opinion. It took a lot of guts to publish that article ( knowing all along,
regardless of the results you were going to get flamed by someone). I for one
thank you, and any others for any knowledge that is shared with this group. I
guess sometimes the truth hurts, but in the end it will only lead to better
products.
Rick Surkin
XPL 951
phebu...@aol.com
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
> >Date: 2/18/99 5:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >
>
> >
> >Buckshot carbs won the races??? Not that I particularly care about this
> >debate, but I suspect that the riders had "a little" more to do with the wins
> >than the carbs. If that's not the case maybe we should just race remote
> >controlled PWC's around the course.
> >
>
> World Championships, win as a combination. In this day and age it takes a
> "Complete Package" to win championships.
> Kurtis Seebold
>
That's true, but there is no denying that a "Mac" on a lesser boat will more
than likely beat a "non-Mac" on a "super boat" any day of the week. My point
is, I don't believe the wins had as much to do with the carbs as the original
poster would like to believe. I think the riders would win using Brand X
carbs as well as Brand Y carbs. If you disagree, great, that's why there's
both crunchy and smooth peanut butter available. I just like to hold on to my
silly belief that the rider is a larger part of the "complete package" than
the aftermarketers give them credit for by saying things like their product
won the race.
I'm done with this thread (I hope) and so now I'll retreat back to "lurker
land." ;-)
---
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Jim & Paulette Beasley
posting data in the future .
Thanks for all your time, knowledge and energy Group K.
Jim Beasley
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
phebu...@aol.com (Phebus6959) wrote:
> Harry, as this thread goes on and on, you gain more and more respect in my
> opinion. It took a lot of guts to publish that article ( knowing all along,
> regardless of the results you were going to get flamed by someone). I for one
> thank you, and any others for any knowledge that is shared with this group.
I
> guess sometimes the truth hurts, but in the end it will only lead to better
> products.
>
What will be intersting is to see if anyone steps up to the plate to repeat
the testing to provide their own assesment. One test does not mean it's the
truth, rather, demonstrated repeatability is the key. However, I don't
believe that anyone else will have the stones to do it, or at leat not do it
AND publicly release the results. So, in that respect Harry is quite the
man.... sort of raises the bar for everyone else. Until somone else does
their own tests and releases the results, those who criticize are largely
blowing smoke.
Crank Ace
In article <19990219050650...@ng-fd1.aol.com>, rkt...@aol.com
(RKT178) writes:
>if you were in the racing part of the industry where all the real horsepower
>and speed hadling and plain making the boats best there ever could possibly
>be
>you would know without a doubt there is no comparing
>Group K to Dan Lamey or Bill Chapin i woldn't even put Group K in the same
>sentnce as those two awesome builders..don't get me wrong Group K will give
>you ok performance
>with reliability which may be desireable for offshore style racing..but when
>it
>comes to closed course racing where all the big boys are ......there is no
>comparison..those builders do not need to post on the newsgroup they get paid
>to do what they do best ..they dont need to put a bunch of results on a
>newsgroup to try to make their living and keep there shop going.....these are
>two way different watercraft builders so don't try to compare them to each
>other
>
Come on Ronny: We've been friends for quite a while now and I'm not trying to
flame you but do you think that because you are now a test rider for Kawasaki
that you are now qualified to argue the points you are argueing?
JamCE
chris
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: group...@aol.com (Groupklemm)
>Date: 2/18/99 9:37 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990218103701...@ng-cg1.aol.com>
>
>Andrew,
>Thank you for the civil language in your response letter. It was a
>refreshing
>break from the combative and vulgar telephone calls I have received from you
>in
>the past.
>You apparently feel that our new document "Racing Carburetors 1999" was
>intended to be a biased effort to singularly discredit Buckshot Racing.
>Please
>know that I have better things to do with my time than spend 4 months
>creating
>a 15 page document to discredit anyone or anything. Perhaps you and I are
>reading different documents. My document explains the concept, measurement,
>and effects of "signal"'. Nowhere in those 15 pages do I call any
>aftermarket
>carb bad or good. The closest I come is in the following text:
>
>"During the '95-'96 racing seasons, one of the most popular inlet systems
>around were the Buckshot Magnum carbs. These carbs were widely used on many
>different engine platforms with good success."
>
>I'm am sincerely sorry if you found these words offensive and discrediting
>toward the Buckshot brand name … my apologies.
>
> As you told me in a recent telephone call, "you better be careful what you
>write" … I took your advice. While drafting this document, I was very
>careful
>about my wording, and the goals of my text. Unfortunately, the only thing
>that I cannot alter for you is the laws of physics that pre-determine flow
>bench data.
> Your claim that the data in our article could be found in "any two stroke
>tuning book", is baloney!! I am in possession of virtually every 2 cycle
>oriented publication in the last few decades. "NONE" have detailed the
>measurement or effects of signal as they relate to the carbs used on pwcs,
>nor
>in the application of high performance pwcs. If you (or George Grabowski)
>know
>of such articles, please direct the readers of rec.sport.jetski to those
>specific titles that you believe so common … WE HAVE NOT SEEN 'EM!!
>I was very suprised to read that you think the only "true" tests of carbs
>could
>be done one a "G" test machine. For those not familiar, a "G" test machine
>is
>a (very expensive) device / room that has the apparatus to effectively bridge
>the information gap between on-water fuel-flow testing, and flow bench
>testing.
> In the USA, there are only three. Two are owned by Mikuni America, and the
>third is owned by Yoshimura (they got it from Mikuni). These machines are so
>few in number because they cost a whole lot more than any flow bench.
> No aftermarket pwc carb maker (including Buckshot) owns a "G" test machine.
>
>No aftermarket pwc carb maker (including Buckshot) conducts their testing on
>a
>"G" test machine. The reason we did not conduct our "standardized" tests on
>a
>"G" test machine is because the data would have been un-verifiable and
>un-reproducible by anyone in the industry … and therefore useless data. If
>Buckshot Racing considers "G" testing to be the only valid evaluation, I
>would
>strongly urge you to consider setting the industry standard by getting one.
> The truth is that "everyone" in the pwc carb business conducts their
>testing
>on flow benches. This flow bench data is very useful and telling … not to
>mention very reproducible. That is why we used it. The standards and
>apparatus we utilized were set forth by Super Flow (the makers of most flow
>benches). Andrew, if you have a test protocol that is more accurate, or more
>relevant, than those set forth by Super Flow, I am certain that Super Flow
>and
>the SAE would love to hear about them.
> We agree with you that on-water data is what's most important … that is why
>we included so much info about our fuel flow meter tests to support our text.
>We also agree with your points about race wins … we have won 14 pro endurance
>titles in the last two years … and no machine we constructed used Buckshot
>carbs. However we do not believe this means that Buckshot carbs are not good
>.... It merely proves that pro titles can be won with carbs of any make. We
>don't take much stock in tour racing because the entire tour entails less
>full
>throttle operating time than a couple of weekends at the endurance races.
>Perhaps the most interesting part of your letter was your inference that
>different levels of carb signal mean only that different jetting is required.
>
>You seem to infer that the actual signal number is not particularly
>important.
>This view is in direct disagreement with virtually all the carb design
>information that I have encountered. It seems to me that a view so different
>would deserve a more thorough explanation. If you were to post a detailed
>technical document to your website explaining this view, I would gladly link
>it
>to my own document (how's that for cooperation?)
>
>Now finished with all the proper pleasantries … let me share a few of my
>"personal" opinions.
>
>The folks on rec.sport.jetski are not impressed by your race wins … they are
>impressed by your participation. If you want to impress us, you will have to
>do a lot better than a single "drive-by" posting under someone else's screen
>name / e-mail address.
> Rec.sport.jetski can be a tough room from time to time. If you don't have
>the stuff it takes to show up regularly … don't expect your posts to get any
>"regular" respect. As for me losing "your" respect … I'm not worried about
>losing the respect of industry folks that begin their telephone conversations
>with "What is your f__kin' problem?"… This sort of respect I can afford to
>lose.
>Respectfully, Harry Klemm Group K
>
>
>
>>Subject: Re: Group K article
>>From: MikeMan <mike...@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: 2/17/99 12:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>>Message-id: <36CB15...@ix.netcom.com>
>>
>>Harry,
>>For years now we have been making high performance carburetors with
>>great success.We take great pride in customer satisfaction and your
>>attempt to discredit us only proves that you do have some kind of vested
>>interest.As far as your technical approach article,you could find all
>>this information in any two stroke tuning book.Instead of being biased
>>or unfairly criticizing someone elses product line,why don't you come up
>>with your own.I think it's great to see new products and welcome
>>competition from the likes of Novi,SRE or whoever can be innovative
>>enough to design a product that performs.As far as your carb test goes I
>>don't care if you did it at Novi or not,the thing that bothers me is not
>>being honest and you and I both know the truth.Harry I have lost all
>>respect for you now.If you wanted to do a true test we should take the
>>carbs to Mikuni and have them tested on their G-test machine since a
>>carb is made to mix air and fuel,not just air.
>> A good example is your vacume test,if there is a higher vacume,that
>>carb would require a smaller jet than the carb with lower vacume.In the
>>case of your test my 46 had a vacume of 34 while the Novi 46 had a
>>vacume of 66 thus requiring the Novi to run smaller jets,WRONG.These
>>carbs both perform very well on XP 800 motors,but require different
>>jetting.That doesn't go with this air flow test thus proving my point
>>that this information is of no use (Buckshot 125 low 105 high, Novi 135
>>low 125 high).If we were all competing with flow benches and Dynos I am
>>sure Polaris would have won 785 pro and even Tigershark would have won
>>somthing.The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
>>results are confirmed by winning races.Buckshot carbs won four of six
>>classes at World Finals in the pro class(Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas
>>Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more
>>expert and novice riders than I can list.How many did GroupK win?
>>If anyone wants to do their own testing,we offer a 30 day money back
>>performance guarantee.Now how is that for customer satisfaction Harry.
>>
>> Andrew Buck
>> Buckshot Racing
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rokybuster
>Date: 2/19/99 2:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
>> Harry, as this thread goes on and on, you gain more and more respect in my
>> opinion. It took a lot of guts to publish that article ( knowing all
>along,
>> regardless of the results you were going to get flamed by someone). I for
>one
>> thank you, and any others for any knowledge that is shared with this
>group.
>I
>> guess sometimes the truth hurts, but in the end it will only lead to better
>> products.
>What will be intersting is to see if anyone steps up to the plate to repeat
>the testing to provide their own assesment.
If you want the "truth". The man with the stones is Ed Brazina, he will fax
you a copy of his "own assesment". He owns a SuperFlow and is competent using
it. He can be reached at 908-722-9768. Ed Brazina told me today that he didn't
even recieve a copy of this "test" from Mr. Klemm. He finally got a copy well
after he published his results. So this isn't a case of sour grapes over where
his carbs placed. It's just a matter of getting the info about "his" carbs
correct. BTW: I have nothing personal against Harry good/bad or otherwise. I
just know this info and thought to share it with the newsgroup. I posted
something about what good results I was getting with Ed's carbs last year. Alot
of you guys acted like I was trying to sell them or something? I have stood in
his shop and seen these test done with my own eyes. Novis/Bucks/Ed's are the
only ones I saw sucked threw the SF600 but after seeing the tests I parted with
the money and bought his carbs. I know it's hard to believe because he has
never advertized these things like the other carbs in the test. WHY? who the
hell knows, but please call him and give your self the chance to look over the
info your self.
Rokybuster
>From: group...@aol.com (Groupklemm)
Harry, this isn't what happened in your angry phone call to Ed Brazina today.
Why would Ed tell you who I am ? * MUCH* more important than my name here, is
WHY you failed to mention that ED BRAZINA is sending you his test results in
type. That Ed Brazina said he can prove your #s aren't correct. TODAY! What's
up with that Harry? SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE Dude all you did was make a mistake,
calm down. I didn't say your posts aren't helpful to alot of people in this
group or you don't know what your talking about in general. Print accurate
results or get used to this kind of scrutiny. BTW: We both no what he sent you.
I must admit it is interesting watching
you try to manipulate opinions with all this "who are you " holier than thou
shit. hehehe WHY ? WHY ? WHY ? AGAIN, what does my name have to do with
reality Harry? Knowing my name would change what? I'm not going to post on
this again. I do hope everyone that reads this post will contact Ed and get his
TRUE AND ACCURATE TEST DATA. He will even tell you where the testing was done
................Cheese Go ahead harry get in the last
word now. LATER
RKT178
worked at Buckshot and am a close friend of Andrew's which you know that i
am....i just see all the the other end of this Group K Buckshot thing that no
one else does and it upsets me that "some" of the people in here go to Harry's
side just because he posts on a newsgroup all the time and Andrew
doesn't......Obviously Harry did something to start this whole thing or else it
wouldn't be happening.......it's just my view of the whole thing..........and
by the way Bill i happen to think your a awesome engine builder tuner as well
so your not evenm included in thisi have seen many of your boats win many races
and championships...and i seen
my friend Scott Pearsons boat fly in colorado in 97 keeping up with the
domintaing Yamaha's then... i know you have used Andrew's products because i
have shipped many to you while i was working there... and i know if i was
building a Sea Doo race boat i'd would most likely take it to you...and also
next time you see Greg Goowin tell him Rocket said hi
Groupklemm
Please understand that the entire purpose of our article was to introduce the
subject of signal, not to proclaim the "best" carburetor. Since "no one" else
in the entrire pwc industry has published "any" info about signal, there was no
precident or standards of measurement.
"THE MOST ACCURATE" indication of signal (or abcence there of) is on-water
fuel flow tests. That is the data we have most of, and we think we do more of
that testing than anyone else. Unfortunatly these fuel flow tests do not give
numerical values for high and low circuit signal.
Our document would have been grossly incomplete if we had not included
flowbench data of the current popular carbs. While we have an industry of
folks who compitently use flow benches ... virtually none of them test in
"exactly" the same way.
Standardizing all flow-bench signal-testing is not my job nor my intent ... I
am glad to let the flow bench technicians do that.
There seems now to be on-going controversy of the accuracy of the flow bench
data on our document. The first impulse for those who dispute the data, is to
infer that the technician doing our tests was careless, incompitent, or biased.
NOBODY IN THIS INDUSTRY IS BETTER QUAILIFIED THAN OUR TECH.
That said, even our tech admits that there are ways to see different numbers
from different flow benches, and slight differences in mount hardware.
Group K does not believe that any of these flow bench techs are stupid. But we
do believe there are important and "real" reasons that cause all the variations
being observed. Standardizing those variables is the job of folks who are
selling expensive racing carbs ... not us.
To this we would add that all racing carb shops are constantly evolving their
product, and so the data of their carbs varies based on that evolution. We did
our best to get the very latest version of the carbs we tested. If other techs
ran tests of other carbs from another "generation" of development ... we can't
control that. This variable also begs the question of what is the "tolerance
range" of signal for all these carbs (it would be unrealistic to believe that
all carbs in a run are "absolutely identical"). These are all questions the
Group K has no interest in answering or solving. However it seems to us that
the folks commanding $400 a carb ought to be answering these questions for
their more sophiscated customers.
ALL our flow bench tests were conducted in the most consistant possible way, on
the same mounting hardware. Each carb had to repeat the same data in 3
seperate tests, before we considered the data "accurate". After conducting all
these tests we realize that it might be tough for any other tech to get the
same relitive data unless they tested "the exact same" carbs we used, on the
"exact same mounting hardware" we used.
In the end, we believe that if the carb makers don't get their act together and
develope standardized protocols for thier own industry, the technical bickering
over tests will turn off their potential customers so badly that they will
"all" lose the sale.
Phebus6959
Harry's, why doesn't either he or you just post it to the group. Certain
individuals have told Harry what a piece of crap his document is , but no one
has come up with any documentation to prove otherwise. If any documentation
exists, I will review it and draw my conclusions from there, but until then I
will consider it nothing more than sour grapes!
Groupklemm
You bring up a few good points. I have adressed them below
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: rkt...@aol.com (RKT178)
>.i just see all the the other end of this Group K >Buckshot thing that no one
else does
There is NO Group K - Buckshot "thing". There "is" a new 15 page document
about carb signal that portray info about many carbs. Buckshot was only one
of them. (I even mentioned how they were successfully used).
and it upsets me that "some" of the people in here go to Harry's
>side just because he posts on a newsgroup all the time and Andrew
>doesn't...
There are no teams here. The readers of rsjs are kind enough to offer me
credibility because I have a website of nearly 700 pages of pwc tech info. It
carries more info about carbs and carb tuning that any other site in the
industry ... including Buckshot's very nicely built site. Anyone who wants
this same kind of credibility from rsjs can easily do so by providing pwc
owners information ... including Andrew.
>...Obviously Harry did something to start this >whole thing or else it
wouldn't be happening.......
You are correct ... I wrote an article about a subject that no carb maker has
offered "any" info about ... guilty as charged.
Rokybuster
>Date: 2/19/99 8:34 PM Eastern
> The first impulse for those who dispute the data, is to
>infer that the technician doing our tests was careless, incompitent, or
>biased.
> NOBODY IN THIS INDUSTRY IS BETTER QUAILIFIED THAN OUR TECH.
Harry are you aware that Ed brazina has an engineering degree? How can you
call yourself "accreditable" when your making oppinion statements (as fact) ?
>ALL our flow bench tests were conducted in the most consistant
possible way,
"our flow bench tests" ????? You mean the tests done for you by
another person in this industry selling carbs to the same audience your now
addressing.
You have the unmitigated odacity to
continue this sharade? WHO DID THE TESTING HARRY? THATS THE NAME PEOPLE WANT
TO HEAR ! Of course if you admitted Novi did the testing "the truth", well I
guess you would be doing some more credibility dancing.
Which brings up another issue about one of your
previous posts. Harry, Bill- O doesn't type up all this band width and stand
back proclaiming himself to be "credible", BUT HE IS ! Why is this? He is by
far the most credible tech in this group (standing alone) in my oppinion. He
stands on his merits, look at what he has built and the performance related
victories backing him up. He is a business man and doesn't hide that fact. He
is making money selling parts and building motors. He tells you what he thinks
works best for him and what he thinks will work for you. NO BONES ABOUT IT !!!
But go to the Group K site and along with all your GOOD and VALUABLE
information that I think is great ! You preface everything with this wrap
about like Consumer Guide you don't make anything you just test it. YA, like
Group K is one of us boys and you have no alterior motives(LIKE THE SALES OF
PARTS AND SEVICES) Dude thats a bunch of horse shit !
Reading your posts
make me wish that you were as important a man as you want to be. You would be a
happier man. All this condescending crap directed at people with the same
theme ( HARRY IS THE FINAL WORD)
Why don't you stop this crap about the carbs? Tell the
entire truth about the testing. Let these folks in here make up thier own
minds about it. You said the purpose of your post was informative. So just
inform. Stop this "base line crap" If your going to say there is no standards
for testing and who did the tests is a secret. You shouldn't be listing product
names..................... you keep trying to do damage control on this "15
page report" that is flawed. Harry I have read threw some of your stuff at
your site and think it's great stuff. But knowing the absolute truth about this
isolated issue(carb testing) and the way your actively ovoiding the discovery
process makes me wonder if this could be random in all of your published
information. Harry, I know your going to take
all this as an attack, it's not. I went to your site to see about who you are
and was struck with these questions, thats all. Harry, if your not going to
tell us the entire truth about this issue, should we believe that this is the
first and only time this has happened ?
Groupklemm
I don't doubt that Ed B. had an engineering degree (he seems like a very sharp
guy). Do you believe he is the only guy running a flow bench that has a
degree? (we live in a world full of sharp guys).
The entire truth about our tests is in our document. If you don't like the
text in our document or our website ... that's fine. You are welcome to refer
rsjs readers to the website that has the true your prefer.
My document asked readers to strongly consider the writings of others ... there
simply aren't any yet ... and that isn't my fault.
You seem to be agitated enough slam anyone in your path ... that's easy.
Are you agitated enough to do the work we did ... seems not.
Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
NASTY MIDGET
Groupklemm
My apologies ... I was unaware that you are completely in charge of what the
entire population of the newsgroup thinks.
>Then and only then...will the group ""Suck" up to your ....thought's
>
You seem to demand attention as if I care what you think ... I don't. Think
what you like, and visit the websites you like.
If you have more complete info than mine ... post it on your own website.
Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
> Please don't insult me because I am short. Just answer the
>...qaestion.
>
>
>
Simon Wallace
reason.
rkt...@aol.com (RKT178) wrote:
>if you were in the racing part of the industry where all the real horsepower
>and speed hadling and plain making the boats best there ever could possibly be
>you would know without a doubt there is no comparing
>Group K to Dan Lamey or Bill Chapin i woldn't even put Group K in the same
>sentnce as those two awesome builders..don't get me wrong Group K will give
>you ok performance
>with reliability which may be desireable for offshore style racing..but when it
>comes to closed course racing where all the big boys are ......there is no
>comparison..those builders do not need to post on the newsgroup they get paid
>to do what they do best ..they dont need to put a bunch of results on a
>newsgroup to try to make their living and keep there shop going.....these are
>two way different watercraft builders so don't try to compare them to each
>other
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sim...@spammersdiezip.net.au
Sydney
Remove the antispam message to reply via e-mail.
http://www.yamaha.com.au/marine/wb700a_model.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Kanowjetski
You demand Harry post names when you and Rocky Buster don't post who
you are?
HIPOCRITES !!!!!!
SteveK
On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:43:00 -0500 (EST), NASTYIR...@webtv.net
(NASTY MIDGET) wrote:
>
>--WebTV-Mail-217806290-11517
>Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
>
> I'm not slamming anyone
> but who ran the tests?
>
>Who ran the tests?
>
>(put name here)
John Galbreath Jr.
http://www.goharley.com
Per dejanews.
Rokybuster wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Group K article
> >From: Kanio...@mail.dec.com (Steve Kanowjetski)
>
> >Hey Nasty Midget !!!
> >
> >You demand Harry post names when you and Rocky Buster don't post who
> >you are?
Andy Simon
http://www.goharley.com
Per dejanews.
> >
> >HIPOCRITES !!!!!!
>
> Steve, If the tests were done by a totally unbias facility WHY is it a secret ?
> That is my point ! My name has nothing to do with what Mr. Klemm has
> published and pressented as fact ! BUT THE NAME OF THE TESTING FACILITY DOES
> !!!!!!!! GET IT Steve ? BTW: Mr. Klemm my R+D on this subject is
> my business. I haven't presented the names of retail manufacturers,tested
> products and published results without complete disclosure you did. *COMPLETE
> DISCLOSURE* Your talking about my slamming you and doing my own "15 page
> report" for the news group? In a lot less band width you could have just filled
> in the missing pieces and let everyone make up thier own minds about whether or
> not the test results could have been tainted. But no, instead your going to
> keep trying to shovel dirt on me. The day I publish product reviews from
> secret testing facilitys slam away. Mr. Klemm if you can't handle questions
> about the publications of products that you review. You should preface your
> publications with *The tests are done at a secret testing facility*, *The
> manufactures of these products weren't given an opportunity to review or
> contest the results of (our) tests prior to this publication*, * If Group K
> doesn't like your questions we may try to insult you or suggest you live under
> a rock or just tell you to go do your own test*. I feel this would put
> your performance product reviews in the correct perspective.
--
John Galbreath Jr.
http://www.FireLogs.com
mailto:Jo...@FireLogs.com
Jim & Paulette Beasley
his suggestion and post your info!
There's an old saying that should apply to these flames ... Shut Up Or Put Up ...
and be a man like Harry and post your name!
Sincerely, Jim Beasley
ABLE2SKI wrote:
> In article <36d17f09...@news.remarq.com>, sim...@zip.com.au (Simon
> Wallace) writes:
>
> >Yep, the other tuners think they're too good for us... that's the
> >reason.
>
> Or they simply don't want to see their efforts trashed by some nameless fool
> shooting off at the mouth.
>
> Regardless of the rating of any carb type or brand, Harry's document had
> something for everybody. I certainly learned something new and would wager that
> nearly everybody in this NG except for the few "self proclaimed know-it-alls"
> learned something as well.
>
> Whether or not you agree with his published results, the man should be credited
> for putting forth the effort to publish the document. After seeing the negative
> responses to the effort Harry put forth, one can hardly wonder why many of
> these other tuners don't wish to participate here.
>
> Andrew
NASTY MIDGET
MR-HPT
that you are the only man with superior mind? You have contradicted avery thing you
do, time and time again. You lying incompetent Nazi type character. You hate Polish
people you hate any one that is o bow your German IQ. Lay low partner you have
insulted to many after market people, get lost. I beth you do not even own a flow
bench. And if you did it could not even come close to elaborate system at Mikuni
USA or Japan. There are only two state of the art machines on this planet and they
are not residing in your shop. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to copy signal of the
real life engine even in million dollar test lab. How could flow banch copy
elaborate pulses traveling thru entire engine? Why bother with some thing that was
designed and is still perfected by bigger brains then you and your master mechanics
can even dream ow? Real life test is performed by many tuners with out flow
benches. They do it by testing real life engines, which you obviously do not fully
comprehend, nor do your so call technicians. You surrounded your self with losers
that could not make it on real race track and pretending to be master of all
masters. Grow up bozo. Why did your Polaris project fail? Why dos it seize time
after time? Shame on you to provide such garbage work for national testing. Why
triple pipe Polaris shakes cylinders of the cases? Is this your contribution to
water craft after market industries? Or you blaming it on weak signal? Harry you
are real loser, take your crew and your poets like De Piadro and Fagan and move to
Australia land of opportunity for man like you. And do not forget Ben he may be
handy for flaming and laying about avery descent person on this NG.
George HPT Sport USA http://www.hpt-sport.com
Groupklemm wrote:
> Roky Buster and others,
> Please understand that the entire purpose of our article was to introduce the
> subject of signal, not to proclaim the "best" carburetor. Since "no one" else
> in the entrire pwc industry has published "any" info about signal, there was no
> precident or standards of measurement.
> "THE MOST ACCURATE" indication of signal (or abcence there of) is on-water
> fuel flow tests. That is the data we have most of, and we think we do more of
> that testing than anyone else. Unfortunatly these fuel flow tests do not give
> numerical values for high and low circuit signal.
> Our document would have been grossly incomplete if we had not included
> flowbench data of the current popular carbs. While we have an industry of
> folks who compitently use flow benches ... virtually none of them test in
> "exactly" the same way.
> Standardizing all flow-bench signal-testing is not my job nor my intent ... I
> am glad to let the flow bench technicians do that.
> There seems now to be on-going controversy of the accuracy of the flow bench
> data on our document. The first impulse for those who dispute the data, is to
> infer that the technician doing our tests was careless, incompitent, or biased.
> NOBODY IN THIS INDUSTRY IS BETTER QUAILIFIED THAN OUR TECH.
Rokybuster
>From: Kanio...@mail.dec.com (Steve Kanowjetski)
>Hey Nasty Midget !!!
>
>You demand Harry post names when you and Rocky Buster don't post who
>you are?
>
ABLE2SKI
X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer)
>
>Steve, If the tests were done by a totally unbias facility WHY is it a secret ?
Harry explained that....it was part of his agreement to get someone to
run the tests on the cheap....and that person obviously doesn't want
people like you sniping away at them. If you don't believe him,
fine....just don't buy from him. But Harry's done something most
others with web sites (like you, apparently) don't do....and that's to
post the information for others to re-run, comment on from a technical
perspective, etc.
The fact that few others have suggests he's either correct, ahead of
the pack, or operating in an area that others don't have technical
references to use in refuting his information, theories, and posted
assumptions. Can you share facts about carbs and tuning that will
shed more light on the subject.....or not? If not, then you're just
another chihuahua nipping at his heels.
dc
Freestyle Forever!
Simon Wallace
>
>In article <36d17f09...@news.remarq.com>, sim...@zip.com.au (Simon
>Wallace) writes:
>
>>Yep, the other tuners think they're too good for us... that's the
>>reason.
>
>Or they simply don't want to see their efforts trashed by some nameless fool
>shooting off at the mouth.
Too true, I forgot about that. It is way too easy for someone to post
under a different name and trash someone's elses' products.
>
>Regardless of the rating of any carb type or brand, Harry's document had
>something for everybody. I certainly learned something new and would wager that
>nearly everybody in this NG except for the few "self proclaimed know-it-alls"
>learned something as well.
>
>Whether or not you agree with his published results, the man should be credited
>for putting forth the effort to publish the document. After seeing the negative
>responses to the effort Harry put forth, one can hardly wonder why many of
>these other tuners don't wish to participate here.
>
>Andrew
Especially since the document is free for all.
MR-HPT
to a average person (be sides confusion)? Are we creating high class lab
technicians in this NG? Avery tuner will attest to the fact that one product may
fail for a particular set up and it may perform like dream in another. Do you have
any thing to back up story regarding seizure due to so call signal loss in induction
system due to carburetor design? Do you think that See Doo employs less competent
designers then Harry? Good grief this hero spent entire season on solving carburetor
problem on big bore engine, charged his customer for his own screw ups and duct
taped filters be cause he fail to perform simple leak down test which he tells
others must do. How about his great contraption in PWCI that fail miserably? Get
real do not stick your nose in something you have no idea how to resolve. Are you on
payroll with high signal carburetor producer or what? Cant you see what this is all
about? I know group of people that are ready to take this critic to cleaners. Unless
you wish to become part of his problem I suggest you get off this ban wagon. Many
hard working people contributing to after market technologies, rest assured that
they will not let this self appointed tester to destroy their product line. Do you
understand close relation ship between port timing, blow down angle, or scavenging
pulse? What do you know about resonant frequency? What happens to induction when
tuned exhaust system works against intake pulse? Do you know that dyno test is more
credible then dry flow bench test? Do you? Do you know how much misery wrongly tuned
exhaust system can create in induction department? Do you know that read and even
rotary valve engine can spit fuel right out of the carburetor filters due to failure
in read cage department resulting in signal loss? Definitely not. If you did you
would stay o way from this subject like many other smart people doing. You have a
nasty habit to pore fresh fuel on burning fire. State facts or bozzzzzzzz off
brother. Do you wish for me to pound you and other false contributors to the ground
for next 12 months? Do you understand what I mean? GJG
X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer)
>DC pleas explain to us what possible benefit such test can even begin to contribute
>to a average person (be sides confusion)?
The average person needs information to either:
- Realize the subject is more complicated than first thought and
remain stock or trust somone who produces results for other customers
- Ponder questions that need to be resolved and researched
- Get confused (as one possibility of many)
- Seek greater knowledge (your school, 2-stroke manuals, etc.)
I'm sure there are more possibilities, but hopefully you get the point
that confusion is not the only route one gets to by reading.
> Are we creating high class lab technicians in this NG? Avery tuner will attest to the fact that one product may
>fail for a particular set up and it may perform like dream in another.
Harry covered this in the article.
> Do you have any thing to back up story regarding seizure due to so call signal loss in induction
>system due to carburetor design?
Nope. Do you?
> Do you think that See Doo employs less competent designers then Harry?
Nope, but last I checked they weren't using aftermarket carbs....in
fact, they define what aftermarket is and is not. Is your suggestion
that nobody should use aftermarket carbs? That should make you some
fans.........
> Good grief this hero spent entire season on solving carburetor
>problem on big bore engine, charged his customer for his own screw ups and duct
>taped filters be cause he fail to perform simple leak down test which he tells
>others must do. How about his great contraption in PWCI that fail miserably?
At least he's trying. You've probably never "rigged" a tried and true
quick and dirty solution, have you? And assuming the problems came
from his testing, perhaps you're saying you've never run a test that
failed? If that's the case, you've never tried very hard.
> Get real do not stick your nose in something you have no idea how to resolve. Are you on
>payroll with high signal carburetor producer or what?
> Cant you see what this is all about? I know group of people that are ready to take this critic to cleaners. Unless
>you wish to become part of his problem I suggest you get off this ban wagon. Many
>hard working people contributing to after market technologies, rest assured that
>they will not let this self appointed tester to destroy their product line.
George, I now work as a business consultant to health care providers
(notice how they have lots of money) who sell to employers after
having worked for VERY large employers who purchase health care for
several years, and I've posted that before. As a consumer, I'll
follow my nose to anybody I want for whatever reasons I choose. Good,
bad, or otherwise....Harry's attached his name to a piece of work that
he's given as a gift. What do you, or they, have to offer?
I don't need to know how great you, they, Harry, or any product
is....I need to know what works and why it works.....can you offer
anything that even resembles facts as a gift to the group?
I am not spending a grand for anything from the aftermarket that
doesn't come close to meeting those two criteria unless one of a VERY
small group I trust is going to put it on my boat and set it up at the
lake. Any aftermarket mfgrs that think they're getting deep into my
wallet without *either* (and possibly both) more information
corroborated by independent tests, or succesful tuners' (plural)
recommendation for MY application is DREAMING.
> Do you
>understand close relation ship between port timing, blow down angle, or scavenging
>pulse? What do you know about resonant frequency? What happens to induction when
>tuned exhaust system works against intake pulse?
No, but even your questions provide information....are you going to
let Harry provide more, or are you?
> Do you know that dyno test is more credible then dry flow bench test? Do you?
I would say yes, because Harry, you, and Bill have all said the only
best way is actually on the water.
> Do you know how much misery wrongly tuned
>exhaust system can create in induction department?
Ummm....yes. Was this a trick question?
> Do you know that read and even
>rotary valve engine can spit fuel right out of the carburetor filters due to failure
>in read cage department resulting in signal loss? Definitely not. If you did you
>would stay o way from this subject like many other smart people doing.
Smart people share information because they like to learn and share
with others who are interested.....real scientists have done that over
thousands of years in spite of personal risk from government controls
to the contrary. Are you a real scientist or a huckster?
> You have a
>nasty habit to pore fresh fuel on burning fire. State facts or bozzzzzzzz off
>brother. Do you wish for me to pound you and other false contributors to the ground
>for next 12 months? Do you understand what I mean? GJG
Sorry you don't get it, George. You're a huckster if all you can do
is flame. Harry wins even more fans every time you flame by asking
questions you don't answer. If you really want to redirect my
attention, provide something valuable.
Will you? Can you?
dc
Freestyle Forever!
WHardy1902
wurld that yoo our the onlee man with mure than too brain cells? You have
contradickted avery
thing yoo preech, tyme and tyme agen. Yoo lying incompetent hippocrit. I em k
not predjudissed, I hate avery bodie, especially big yapped maingie polish
chihuahuas. Lay low partner, Even the fleas want off.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
Dan DePardo
MR-HPT wrote:
> Harry you are real loser, take your crew and your poets like De Piadro and Fagan
> and move to Australia land of opportunity for man like you. And do not forget Ben
> he may be handy for flaming and laying about avery descent person on this NG.
Mr. Grabowski;
I have asked you in the past to keep my name out of your posts, and I have also made
it a point to refrain from commenting upon your coninuously clueless ramblings, yet
you still insist upon taking pot shots at me.
Although it's quite obvious to me that you should consider spending some time with a
psychiatric therapist, that's no news to anybody "here", and not a valid excuse.
That said, if you really "want some", keep it up pal, but I have to tell ya that
I find spanking you to be so easy that it bores me.
Dan "Somebody E-Mail this guy some meds!" DePardo
John Galbreath Jr.
filter all his posts. You on the other hand, have a lot of valuable
information. My filter is set up for anything with "HPT" in the name or
subject. Do you know how foolish you look arguing with a fool?
"X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer)" wrote:
>
--
MR-HPT
ever in place of quality induction. GJG
bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com wrote:
> In article <36CB15...@ix.netcom.com>,
> mike...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > The best testing we feel is still done on the water and the
> > results are confirmed by winning races.Buckshot carbs won four of six
> > classes at World Finals in the pro class(Jeff Jacobs 48mm Magnum,Nicolas
> > Rius 48mm Magnum,Dustin Farting 47mm BRM,Tera Crismon 47mm BRM and more
> > expert and novice riders than I can list.
>
> Buckshot carbs won the races??? Not that I particularly care about this
> debate, but I suspect that the riders had "a little" more to do with the wins
> than the carbs. If that's not the case maybe we should just race remote
> controlled PWC's around the course.
>
> ---
>
> Bruce Holms
> bho...@itchy.nafb.trw.com
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2801/
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
MR-HPT
Tony Ernst wrote:
> Crank Ace wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > This is not a pimp for Buckshot Carbs, but whatever parts and rider that win
> > World Championships, win as a combination. In this day and age it takes a
> > "Complete Package" to win championships.
> > Kurtis Seebold
>
> Not to mention that many stickers on the boats doesn't reflect what's under the
> hood !
> I don't understand why so many people try to flame Harry's post. He shares with
> us his testing and that's really valuable. I don't see tuner like Bill Chapin,
> Dan Lamey, and other sharing their testings. So hats off to Harry.
Fluidracer
months, not one reply!! That's the way to be in business!!, don't respond to
potential customers looking to unload cash, good job guys!
<<sign my name here>>
Chris Hyslop...
Ken Basile
Why do you bother even talking to Rokybuster. This person is clearly a coward. He
is just knit picking about about ridiculous stuff. I give you, Harry, a lot of
credit. You did a test and published the results, which no one else has ever
done. AND YOU SIGNED YOUR NAME TO IT. That's balls and I respect that.
Now this Rokyboob character has no balls. He likes to hind behind a keyboard and
take pot shots at you. What is he afraid of..... After reading this guys posts,
which practically put me to sleep, I've come to the conclusion.....Enough is
enough.
Why doesn't Rokyboob conduct his own test and publish the results. He can't
because he's a coward. Harry, you are obviously dealing with a light weight and a
pretender. He keeps pulling you in to a pity argument.
Ken Basile
Groupklemm wrote:
> Rokybuster,
> I don't doubt that Ed B. had an engineering degree (he seems like a very sharp
> guy). Do you believe he is the only guy running a flow bench that has a
> degree? (we live in a world full of sharp guys).
> The entire truth about our tests is in our document. If you don't like the
> text in our document or our website ... that's fine. You are welcome to refer
> rsjs readers to the website that has the true your prefer.
> My document asked readers to strongly consider the writings of others ... there
> simply aren't any yet ... and that isn't my fault.
> You seem to be agitated enough slam anyone in your path ... that's easy.
> Are you agitated enough to do the work we did ... seems not.
> Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
>
MR-HPT
could benefit average craft owner or tuner. Harry is a slick and conniving sales
person. His information is directed to keep people in high tech darkness. Like I
said be fore if he had submitted this crap to SAE they would dump it in garbage
can. Wake up man this thing is designed to be liter some of the after market
products and to promote his special interests bodies and him self. Where are all of
those seized up water crafts with week signal induction's? Show me one machine
that manufacturer fail to provide with over rich carburetion operating in OEM power
band. Granted man did lots of work but it equals to fart on windy day in open
field.
Regarding Bill and Dan they do not have need for picking up customers from this
NG. These man work for bigger hats than Harry. Dan Lamey and Bill Chapin carry
more brains in their pants that Harry and his click put all together. How do I
know from personal dealing with Dan. This man has brains and will power rarely seen
in this days. How many people in his condition can design, machine, rune dyno and
do manual work? Fruit and vegetables do not mix together, stop talking nonsense
regarding man which you obviously do not know anything about. GJG
AorGTilton
they are actually using them, what people don't realize is they are being tuned
(the skis) by world class tuners. And they more than likely aren't the same
carbs you and I can buy. I kinda agree withwhat someone else said, it really
doesn't matter what carbs these top pros are using, they are the top riders in
the world. They, along with there engine builders and a lot of R&D are what
make these boats run. You can have the fastest ski in the world and without a
good rider, it's not going to win, especially in the ski class.
Scott
MR-HPT
expense of the other any smart tuner knows the price of such venture. Harry is
controversial green horn, insulting Nazi type and very arrogant or plane stupid in
personal relation ship department. GJG
ABLE2SKI wrote:
> In article <36d17f09...@news.remarq.com>, sim...@zip.com.au (Simon
> Wallace) writes:
>
> >Yep, the other tuners think they're too good for us... that's the
> >reason.
>
> Or they simply don't want to see their efforts trashed by some nameless fool
> shooting off at the mouth.
>
MR-HPT
Tel: 502-898-2617
Jim & Paulette Beasley wrote:
> Well said Andrew, for all those nameless fools who keep trying to flame Harry, take
> his suggestion and post your info!
> There's an old saying that should apply to these flames ... Shut Up Or Put Up ...
> and be a man like Harry and post your name!
> Sincerely, Jim Beasley
>
MR-HPT
nonsense I will pound on you avery chance I get. GJG
Dan DePardo wrote:
MR-HPT
You must have damaged your head again. Sorry I cant recommend any help to you,
don't know of any doctors that can come up with replacement of empty brain bucket.
GJG
MR-HPT
but will never agree with his deceiving tactics specially personal attacks in regards to after market products, pricing
and performance. GJG
X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer) wrote:
MR-HPT
GJG
John Galbreath Jr. wrote:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> John Galbreath Jr. <Jo...@FireLogs.com>
> www.FireLogs.com & ABSCO Fireplace & Patio
>
> John Galbreath Jr.
> www.FireLogs.com & ABSCO Fireplace & Patio <Jo...@FireLogs.com>
> 416 South 28th Street ;Birmingham;Alabama;35233;USA Cellular: Not Available
> Fax: 205.323.7006
> Home: Not Available
> Work: 888-321-Logs
> Additional Information:
> Last Name Galbreath Jr.
> First NameJohn
> Version 2.1
jlith...@my-dejanews.com
In article <36D18EC5...@apex.net>,
MR-HPT <hpts...@apex.net> wrote:
> John you double face immoral pervert, stick your head in the bucket and seas
to exist.
> GJG
>
> John Galbreath Jr. wrote:
>
> > Andrew. I ask you to put "HPT" in the subject when you reply to him. I
> > filter all his posts. You on the other hand, have a lot of valuable
> > information. My filter is set up for anything with "HPT" in the name or
> > subject. Do you know how foolish you look arguing with a fool?
> >
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Groupklemm
I checked my aol fileing cabinet for response mails that I sent to you. I sent
you mails on
1/4/99
12/18/98
12/17/98
11/30/98
I have a mail from you in my box dated last Friday. I just havn't gotten to
Fridays mail yet.
If you recieved none of those mails, you may have a e mail problem.
Regards, Harry Klemm Group K
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: fluid...@aol.com (Fluidracer)
>Date: 2/22/99 9:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990222110800...@ng-fu1.aol.com>
Groupklemm
Point well made. I was confusing rokybuster with someone who knows what he is
talking about. He has proven that he's not worth the bandwidth.
(I think rokybuster and George G. may have been seperated at birth).
Regards, Harry Klemm
>Subject: Re: Group K article
>From: Ken Basile <bas...@aol.com>
>Date: 2/22/99 9:10 AM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <36D18044...@aol.com>
Spazam
never had a problem.
Fluidracer wrote in message
<19990222110800...@ng-fu1.aol.com>...
>Does Group K ever respond to their e-mails? I have sent many in the last
few
Jim & Paulette Beasley
(2) Let me post my tech info .................................................................. wow i guess i don't have any!
(3) I have personally wasted at least a couple thousand dollars on performance parts that didn't perform like the manufacturer said or claimed it would, had i read Group K's web site before buying these parts i wouldn't have bought them because the Group K tech info would have steered me in the right direction, how do i know this, because i followed the tech info in one way or another and it worked.
(4) I couldn't begin to count the number of times people such as Group K, Bill O'Neal, Factory Pipe and others have helped me and my friends with tech info or ng posts.
(5) Owning 5 pwc's of various makes, each with some type of mod, makes their info invaluable
(6) If you posted on the newsgroup about a certain mod that i could relate to that you were thinking about trying i would post what did or didn't work for me as would others, i find this info also invaluable, doesn't mean it will work for you, but it might help you.
(7) Well, got to go now , Harry answered my e-mail about my HX, i need to pull the cylinders that i've been trying to do the past couple of weeks so i can send them to Group K.
p.s. how about posting your tech info?
Sincerely, Jim Beasley
NASTY MIDGET wrote:
jim...@erols.com (Jim & Paulette Beasley) Re: Group K article Well said Andrew, for all those nameless fools who keep trying to flame Harry, take his suggestion and post your info! How much money have spent on GroupK products, Go ahead, post the dollar amount. $0 Post your info Jim. Nasty Midget.
Leading the Pack" -----------==Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your OwnNasty Midget on the loose"