3 Hour Old SBT crank bearing failure

[Fercho]

A crank was send to RAD for truing and welding. Bob informed us that
the crank was not-rebuildable. My buddy decided to call SBT who took
the unrebuildable crank as a core and send him a rebuild SBT GPR crank
( I told him do not do it but oh welll he did it). We finally finished
the ski and took it out. Within 3 hours one of the connecting rod
bearings failed, metal flew all over the took 2 pistons and 2
cylinders and a head dome out.
SBT was contacted and they informed us that the crank was out of
warranty since it was purchased over 3 months ago.............only 3
hours on it.

For what I can see the connecting rod bearings did not look OEM. I am
not sure what they are!!!!!!!

My recommendation is if you can not get your crank rebuild by a
reputable shop using stock components. Buy a new one. DO NOT ACCEPT
AFTERMARKET BEARINGS, GASKETS, SEALS OR COMPONENTS AS SUBSTITUTES.

Here are links to the pictures

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT3.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT4.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT5.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT6.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT7.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT10.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT11.JPG

http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT12.JPG

[momar]

I beleive they use wsm parts
"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5b3ed8e1.02112...@posting.google.com...

[scott]

I purchased a rebuilt crank from SBT in 1999 for my 97 Yamaha Superjet. I
did so because of the success I had on previous SBT rebuilt, trued and
welded cranks. During the 2000 year, I competed in Amateur Freestyle on The
IJSBA Nat. Tour at EVERY stop except Chicago (took 2nd place overall), and
competed in the Hot Water Tour and Mike Young's Surf & Turf Series (won
Region 7 Amateur Freestyle) and NEVER had one problem with the crank!!!!!
Even after numerous subs, barrel rolls and nose stabs and quite a few
sinkings. I only wish every aftermarket part I bought was as well
manufactured as an SBT crank!

Tim Scott

"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5b3ed8e1.02112...@posting.google.com...

[David B. Thomas Jr.]

Momar,

SBT uses their own manufactured rods, not WSM. You can verify this by
looking at the photo in this link that Fercho provided. It has SBT
stamped on the rod. http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/SBT5.JPG

Dave

--
David B. Thomas Jr
Blew-By-You PWC Services
93-A Pine Burr Rd Lumberton, MS 39455
(601) 796-2033 http://www.blewbyyou.net

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Like I said before...I think their "cranks" are good.

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com
"scott" <tks...@vol.com> wrote in message news:uuerjjs...@corp.supernews.com...

[Phil]

Doesn't SBT11 show detonation or water ingestion which may have caused the
failure?

"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5b3ed8e1.02112...@posting.google.com...

[Bill O'Neal]

Phil,
No, that appears to be where the broken bearings and cages got between the
head and the piston top, causing the damage you see in the picture.

In all of the talk on this subject, no one has mentioned wether or not this
rod bearing was being oiled, or how it was being oiled. Wether or not it was
an oil injected motor, or pre-mixer.

I think it quite unfair to jump to conclusions as to who or what was at
fault based on the statements and or pictures.

One thing is certain. A bearing should last longer than 3 hours, and we have
no proof that oil was getting to the bearings.

My experences with SBT cranks has been excellent so far. I have used dozens
of them without any failures....

Bill O'Neal
WCM

"Phil" <space...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7pG9.193027$%m4.7...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...

[Tom Howlin]

It all goes back to the same old question - why was the original crank
not rebuildable? Something happened to it to cause it to be damaged
beyond salvation (normal wear and tear does not make a crank
unrebuidable - SBT rebuilt one for us that had 600 hours on it). If
whatever that problem was isn't corrected, doesn't matter who rebuilds
the crank, it's going to fail again. The GPR crank is notoriously weak,
partly due to the heavy flywheel assembly. Any modification at all will
create problems, especially if the rider goes full throttle in rough
water. The stress of re-entering the water with that heavy flywheel
spinning at 7K+ rpms and then suddenly loading causes all kinds of
problems including thrust washer failure. Andy at A&R went through
"several" welded, pinned, loctited, cranks this past summer before he
finally got his hands on triple pipe beast with total loss and the
lightened flywheel and voila, no more problems. If your GPR is modded
out, expect problems with the crank unless you invest in the lightened
flywheel via total loss. Everyone seems to think that "welding" a crank
cures all possible problems with it, not even close. May stop it from
going out of index but that's about it. You still have journal
bearings, cages, thrust washers, etc. that are being stressed. Stock,
it should never be a problem but with mods, you are always on your own.
Sorry this guy had the problem and don't really know the
circumstances but like I say, find the problem first, fix it second and
then correct the damage.

Tom

[Yammasacky]

wouldnt the piston burn up before the crank if it had no oil?

[Fercho]

Water ingestion is out of the question. I removed ferrous metal debri
that was stuck on top and around the squish band area. I spoke to
Eric Gorr today and he tells me that it is possible that the piston
was traveling higher since the bearing cage was damaged and this may
have caused preignition and also debris from the crank traveled thru
the transfer ports and may have been hammered between the sqish band
and the piston.

[Fercho]

Bill I took the carbs apart, cleaned them out completely, synch the
pop-off the butterflies and even pressure tested the carbs after they
where on the rack to ensure that the hoses were retaining pressure.
The engine was pressure tested also, The pulse lines where tested with
the pop-off gauge where I ran 30 PSI to make sure that they where not
leaking anywhere.

The ski was premix 32:1 and the carbs settings where rich. The day
before we check plugs and the center plug in particular was dark
brown/black with no aluminum residue or metal flake coating.
Compression was within specs but the engine seemed to be turning very
slow. I told Richard to get a fresh battery but it seem that then the
bearings where failing and dragging already.

Tom actually Bob at RAD told me back then that the crank that we sent
to him to get true & welded had some rusted out bearings and pitting
on the pins and it was going to be more expensive to rebuild it than
to buy a new one, so he send it back to us. Richard ran a couple of
endurance salt water races and I guess he must have gotten some
moisture in there and that what happened to the first crank.

Tom I am running the RAD total loss flywheel on my tripple pipe. Only
2.15 pounds and $350.00...........JUST AWESOME. Almost 1/2 the weight
of the stock one 4.1 pounds. The RAD charging flywheel weights 3.0
pounds at $450.00 and it also performs very well that one I am
running on single piped engines.

Fercho

[Fercho]

Tom do you still have your GPR???

The single pipe with the total loss RAD flywheel pulled as hard as my
GPR with the RAD charging flywheel till about 60 MPH.

What I like the most is that I can use either my stock CDI or my
Advent. It is a direct replacement to the stock flywheel, just plug
play and recharge your battery

http://home.swbell.net/fcflaw/Wheel___Tool.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/RADFWLS.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/RADFWLSSV.JPG

The Total Loss wheel is on the left

Remember your fuel cock switch problem. Well we had to many that we
could not solved so we got rid of it. I got tire of the bogging at
high speeds

http://home.swbell.net/edany/Fuelmod1.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/ff2.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/gauge1.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/gauge2.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/gauge3.JPG
http://home.swbell.net/spsinc/gauge4.JPG

[Bill O'Neal]

Fercho,
I was thinking along the lines of a possible stuck oil injection check
valve, a cracked oil line, air leak, or some other reason that that rod may
not have been getting oiled properly. But, if you were premixing, then
unless somebody forgot to put the oil into the gas ( it happens), then a
stuck check valve could not be the problem. You also stated that you
pressure tested the cases, another possible cause of an overheated rod
bearing.

Maybe you just got a bad bearing ? Stuff happens.

Rusty cranks can be rebuilt usually, because they do use new rod pins when
they rebuild them. But, that point is mute anyway, as SBT sends you another
crank in exchange for your crank.

I'm sorry for the loss you suffered. Had it been within the warranty period,
no doubt they would have replaced it without question. My personal
experences with SBT has been nothing but outstanding customer service, with
very few comebacks.

BTW, the crankshaft bearings that SBT uses in most of their Japanese
rebuilds are manufactored by the same company that makes the oem parts, go
figure.

I am not real impressed with the oem Yamaha triple crankshafts. Several have
come through my shop that were the cause of the engine failures of the
customers' otherwise very low hour, like new Yamaha watercraft.

Bill O'Neal
WCM

"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:5b3ed8e1.02120...@posting.google.com...

[Tom Howlin]

Yep, I've got an 02 now that is mostly stock becaue I've been scared of
the crank/flywheel issue. Plus, I never really understood total loss,
thought it was only good for an hour or two or riding but have since
found out that you can go a whole weekend on a charge (and then some
apparently). After watching Andy literally snap the flywheel off the
end of the crank, convinced me to ride easy in rough water. Now that
I've gotten back into Blasters, Blaster II and standups, the GPR doesn't
hold much interest. Our buddies triple pipe built by Hedlund and then
Gary Lamb gave me all the taste (and respect) for speed on a 600lb
bullet that I need. Plus, old man Harris has pumped about $4k into an
STX-R to try and beat a stock GPR and hasn't done it yet - LOL! I'm
going to take a hard look at the MSX four-stroke in '04 since the Honda
two-seater is just too big with too much wasted space. For now, it's
sit back and watch the snow fall and the fire burn - damn it!

Tom

[Fercho]

Bill you got a point there about the the oil line check valve. I have
seen them and had a friend who went thru two motors witihn hours
because of it.

I know about Yamaha crank/flywheel problems and understand that even
some brand new OEM have gone out.

Thanks for your feedback

[RenegadeCrazy]

tom i picked up on your comments about the gpr cranks being weak your correct
what we have experienced at rpm is the flywheel breaking right off the front
journel not only on our race boats we endurance race but on custermors boats
that are bone stock fortunatly with alot of R&D we have come up with a fix for
the problem which i might ad yamaha denies they have a problem for alot less
than going with a total loss ignition this fix allows maintaining stock
flywheel if you would like more info give us a call 1 623 879 0342 ask for
larry or mark

[SL(SeaLion)]

Sorry to change topics but it seems to be headed that way anyway.
Tom, I found out the MSX's 750 engine is a Swiss engine. Check out these
links that I came up with. http://www.swissauto.com/toc.htm and click on
the MPE750 (Multi Purpose Engine) links. Also
http://www.weber-motor.de/indexe.htm . What's a trip is that Greenpeace
is behind a project that use a version of these engines in a subcompact
car for ultra low emmisions and excellent fuel economy. I don't what
what all Polaris has tinkered with the engine or maybe it is just left
as is but the Weber site has 2,500 hours for the lifespan of the engine
with the turbo. Not bad for a watercraft application. Plus the MSX150 is
intercooled, which I think brings the hp up to 150.

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Yup....that's the same motor alright. Hey Z'man...you have too
much time on your hands to be finding this stuff...LOL. I'm glad
you found it. It's interesting to see where some of this new technology
is coming from.

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com

"SL(SeaLion)" <zol...@gte.net> wrote in message news:gVQG9.28094$%r6....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

[SL(SeaLion)]

LOL, it was on Friday that I found it. I actually had to come into work
for a few hours and then I dedided to look and found it. Much better
with the dsl at my shop than dial up at home. I rarely go online at home
because I got spoiled. It really wasn't that hard to find once I got the
source correct. All this time I was looking at German collaboration but
there was one line in the PWI article that I read that said Swiss. Once
armed with that it literally only took minutes to find it. I guess it
dates back to 99 or so because the website with the complete engine
hasn't been updated since 2000.

[Tom Howlin]

Hey Zoltan, way to go! Makes me feel better and better about the
prospects for the MSX! I guess the problem now will actually be getting
my hands on one although we do have a new dealer at the lake just hope
he spends the bucks to get a top tech like Joe McKenna. Let's see now,
make that a his and her MSX - n/a and turbo, Blaster II, Blaster I and
an Octane - now that's the vision of sugarplumes dancing in my head!

Tom

[Gary Harris]

Tom......
You old dog.... 4000 in mods and my STXR still can't catch your GPR.... Man
I don't think Santa is going to bring you a new Polaris if you keep telling
those tall stories. We all know that the STXR put you so far back in the
weeds in stock mode that it took you over a mile to catch up. Now I will
admit that given enough lake that the GPR will catch the STXR..... but you
need a very very long lake to do it. So go back to your fire place and
easy chair and those dreams of a new jet ski because that is the only way
you will ever get close to my STXR.
And for your information I only have about 1,500 in mods and I don't have to
let off the gas in ruff water because I am afraid of breaking a crank or
sucking a rave valve.
Oh and by the way... you no longer own a stand up... I own it.. remember...
You were just to old to ride it any longer...

Love ya Bro....
Gary ( big dog ) Harris

"Tom Howlin" <tom...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3DEBF44F...@erols.com...

[Fercho]

""I'm going to take a hard look at the MSX four-stroke in '04.....""

YOU ARE A SICK MAN!!! :)

[shop]

boy, bryan on vacation ?

[Bryan Glynn - SBT]

I was, actually, for the majority of this BS

http://www.sbtontheweb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000689

--

___________________
Bryan Glynn
Webmaster
www.sbtontheweb.com

"shop" <sh...@iescorp.com> wrote in message
news:3DECEA36...@iescorp.com...

[MR-HPT]

Same bull shit, just another day. You idiots, still spewing shit out of your
bottom less pit. For the record, if the lubricity was the issue then rest
assured pistons would take a crap first. Commander get your carpenters tools
ready, it looks like you will be building garages again very soon.
GJG

[Adam]

So what was it George ? The bearing failed due to ---? Rust ?
Adam
"MR-HPT" <hpts...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:3E027DE0...@apex.net...

[BillG]

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***

I thought your lawyer pulled the plug on your computer or your liver gave
out.

Nice to see you posting again.

-----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Hey guys, you can give George all the crap you want but he is right.
If the oil line was blocked, the piston would have stuck long before
there was any damage to a crank bearing.

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com

"BillG" <bi...@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:3e03...@post.newsfeed.com...

[Fercho]

OK Lazlo & George I want to hear your opeinion on this one.

Thanks

Fercho

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Sometimes bearings just fail. You can't always place the blame on
the oil unless it is obvious. I've seen them fail on the first ride out before
knowing everything is working as it should. It's things like this that helped
create the saying "shit happens".

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com

"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message news:5b3ed8e1.02122...@posting.google.com...

[Bill O'Neal]

Uh Lazslo,
That is why I put that line in my post that said " sometimes stuff
happens".......

Not everybody blames oil for everything, but you never know for sure when
you are on the wrong end of the internet, either...

Bill O'Neal
WCM
"Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc." <loba...@mindspring.com> wrote in
message news:au12ce$aet$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Yup...and I agree with you Bill.

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com

"Bill O'Neal" <water...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:gE_M9.7260$p_6.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Jetskiracer222]

Bearings don't "just fail", but it sometimes seems that they do, because, when
they do they destroy the evidence of the problem that caused them to fail,
making it seem like it "just happened". The bearing or races could have
manufacturing flaws or a piece of foreign matter can cause them to seize, but
you can see all that because of the damage cause by the seizure.

Scott

[Bill O'Neal]

So true Scott,

There is always a reason for a bearing failure. Manufactoring defects are
not real common, but they do occur. I believe that is what is reffered to as
" shit happens" as Laz so eloquiently put it.

Bill O'Neal
WCM
"Jetskiracer222" <jetskir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221103602...@mb-fn.aol.com...

[Jetskiracer222]

Sorry, should have read "can't see all that" on my last post.

Scott

[Rawmt69]

when was the last time one of you bought a brand new ski stock untouched and
blew a bearing?

[Bill O'Neal]

1998.

But I didn't buy it. A customer did. The thrust washers on one of the rod
big end bearings turned blue and frayed and the bearing disintregrated....
Total hours on the motor, 3.....

Bill O'Neal
WCM
"Rawmt69" <raw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221130326...@mb-fq.aol.com...

[Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.]

Do Sea Doos count?

--
Laszlo Almasi
Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc.
2810-5D Yonkers Road
Raleigh, NC 27604
loba...@mindspring.com

"Rawmt69" <raw...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021221130326...@mb-fq.aol.com...

[rocketralph]

I wouldnt put an SBT crank in my garbage can

"Fercho" <spee...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:5b3ed8e1.02122...@posting.google.com...

[Bill O'Neal]

Ralph,
I'm curious to know just what kind of crankshaft you did put in your garbage
can ?

Bill O'Neal
WCM
"rocketralph" <4yam...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m8bN9.54020$uJ5.4...@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[rocketralph]

LOL Bill , you have a great sence of humor.Its not about my garbage can ,its
about the crankshaft being discussed. Happy Holidays

"Bill O'Neal" <water...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:YjkN9.8617$p_6.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Bill O'Neal]

-Ralph,
I must have missed something....
I have bought and used a couple dozen SBT crankshafts and I have yet to get
a bad one. In fact, I installed one 3 or 4 years ago in an offshore racer
and it is still alive and well with well over 150 hrs and lots of wide open
racing hours on it. It could be approaching or beyond the second hundred
hours by now.

SBT uses the same bearing manufactors as the Japanese OEM companies use on
the big end of their rods, and to the best of my knowledge, breaking SBT
rods has not been a problem either. So that leaves the builder to choose
which top end bearings to use. If you choose the right top end bearings, you
probably will not have a problem with an SBT crankshaft. As with all
complicated mechanical parts, there is always an exception to the rule,
which may account for this thread in the first place.

I have no reservations about using SBT cranks. Trued and welded, with good
bearings and rods that are not known to break, what else is there to be
worried about?

If you are building a "go-to-the-front" racing engine, you shouldn't be
buying the cheapest crankshaft anyway, and even a brand new oem crankshaft
will need massaging too, if you expect it to handle the power. Stress
relieving the rods, shot peening, and setting clearances, besides truing and
welding, are common practices to get a really good crankshaft built.

Like I stated earlier, I have seen an oem rod failure with 3 hours on it. It
had good oiling and no other apparent reason to let go, but it did. Stuff
happens.

Bill O'Neal
WCM

"rocketralph" <4yam...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:DdsN9.53950$Rt1.2...@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[Mr. HPT]

Bill take a closer look at bearing code, physical dimensions and price. You
need to learn facts about bearing classification be for posting ironic
information. What appears to be identical part in your opinion, may very
greatly in tolerances and price, apparent same type may very in price from $
25 to several hundred $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Hit the books, good body.
George Ski
HPT Sport USA
http://www.hpt-sport.com
Tel 270-898-2617

"Bill O'Neal" <water...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:4HtN9.9319$p_6.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Fercho]

This is recollection of the attempts that we made to contact SBT

I wanted to talk to the owner and tell what happened, and see if he
wanted the crank to inspect it. I'm not doing to lie, also wanted to
see if I can get my money back. Trying to contact the SBT owner was
impossible.
I tried a whole week here is the breakdown.

Monday – 12/9/2002
1:00pm lunch
3:52pm not in the office, try back tomorrow
Message was given to receptionist for Greg to call me

Tuesday-12/10/2002
10:16am – not in the office
Greg does mot deal with warranties, talk to warranty manager
Message was given to receptionist for Greg to call me

Wednesday – 12/11/2002
9:00am - Out of Office
Message was given to receptionist for Greg to call me

Thursday – 12/12/2002
2:18pm – out of office
Julie tells me "that is out of warranty, "warranty is a warranty"
"Greg does not handle warranties." I asked her if they wanted to
inspect the crank. She told me yes if it was still under warranty.
Message was given to receptionist for Greg to call me

Friday – 12/13/2002
2:00pm – out of office
Message was given to receptionist for Greg to call me

I thought SBT would want to take a close inspection of the crank to
see if any problems exist. But it seems if your 90 day warranty is
over then forget it.

I will always buy factory parts.

Fercho's Views

After SBT's president Greg Pickren clearly admitted an SBT product
failure on his post in the Riva Forum.

"It's always painful for me to see a disappointed customer and a
failed SBT product. All of us at SBT take great pride in the services
we provide and the quality of our products"

He completely refused to return our phone calls or e-mails or even
look into the failure of the crank. Apparently the failure of the part
and disappointment of the customer was not painful at all like he
stated. I guess this shows how much pride SBT takes on their products
and how they solve all of the obstacles that their business encounter.

All of his words were a bunch of Hog Wash.

NEVER……..EVER……..will we ever buy another SBT product again.

"A GREAT BUSINESS IS BUILD NOT IN SIZE BUT IN CUSTOMER SERVICE"

Fercho

This is the end of this story!!!!!

[Pilot]

Take him to small claims court in your home state. Serve him. He will have
to show up. When you placed the order over the phone from your location,
you set the court jurisdiction. Once he gets the summons to appear, he will
talk to you. If he made statements about defective parts or how he stands
behind his equipment publicly, then he has to stand behind them.

Pilot

"Mr. HPT" <hpts...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:b11lt...@enews3.newsguy.com...

[PWCFRAZIER]

>Take him to small claims court in your home state.

>When you placed the order over the phone from your location,

>you set the court jurisdiction.

Boy is this ever wrong

[GEORGE]

Strange. Greg has always bin the must generous person I know, and has
never ignored my call. Some thing is not right with this dilemma.
GJG

[Fercho]

George we tried contacting them about this issue and we were ignored,
that is why we went public with it. They had a chance to come forward
and make it right or at least look into it but they did not care.