Polaris Oil Question
Sam D.
following language regarding oil usage:
"Use only Polaris 2-cycle oil or Polaris Premium Gold Synthetic 2-cycle oil.
The use of unrecommended oil could result in engine damage or poor
performance. It will also void your warranty."
The manual does not give any further description or specification for the
oil required. If other brands do exist that meet the same specs as the
Polaris oil, whatever they may be, then the company could not legally compel
the exclusive use of its own product in order to uphold the warranty. Does
anyone know if the Polaris oil is a unique type of 2-cycle oil? Or are there
any other oils that are comparable in quality and suitable for the Polaris
PWC?
This question arose yesterday because we had neglected to bring extra oil
along and there was no Polaris dealer that was open anywhere near the area
where we were riding. Other 2-cycle oils were available but I decided not to
use any other oil unless and until I can be sure it will do no harm. I've
seen this subject previously discussed here as it pertains to Sea-Doo oil
but not for Polaris or other PWC makes.
Any help on this appreciated.
Sam D.
SL(SeaLion)
no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I now
use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had any
problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
somewhere?
Sam D.
SL(SeaLion) <zol...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3960CF9A...@gte.net...
> I used to use Quaker State Synthetic that I bought at Wal-Mart, but they
> no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I now
> use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had any
> problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
> much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
> Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
> somewhere?
>
It's really emphatic about only using Polaris oil.
Anyway, I just purchased a gallon of the Polaris 2-cycle oil (not the
synthetic) and even the container has no reference to the oil's description
(such as TCW-3 ) or its specs. So they are saying you must use their brand
of oil while witholding the only information that would allow you to make a
comparison with other available oils. The cost of the Polaris oil was $14.95
which is far from outrageous but my concern was not the price but about the
lack of ready availability. The nearest Polaris dealer that was open today
was a 38 mile round trip from my house and they only had one gallon in
stock.
Fagan Pace
Magnuson /Moss warranty act. If there is no API specification cited then
obviously there is no way to prove there is a suitable substitute.
Yamaha is doing the same thing w/ their 2W oil. I'd like to see the FTC
take a look at this practice and test it's validity and legality.
Fagan Pace
Larry W4CSC
wrote:
>I purchased a new Polaris Virage. The Polaris owner's manual contains the
>following language regarding oil usage:
>
>"Use only Polaris 2-cycle oil or Polaris Premium Gold Synthetic 2-cycle oil.
>The use of unrecommended oil could result in engine damage or poor
>performance. It will also void your warranty."
>
They CAN'T be THAT stupid! And they put it in WRITING? WOW.....you
got 'em by the balls!
This reference comes from FEDERAL LAW:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch50.html
Under this Title 15, Chapter 50 is section 2302 (c) which says:
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/2302.html)
(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty;
waiver by Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or
implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in
connection with such product, any article or service (other than
article or service provided without charge under the terms of the
warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;
except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the
Commission if -
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted
product will function properly only if the article or service so
identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public
interest. The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and
permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the
prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal
Register its disposition of any such application, including the
reasons therefor.
No boat or boat engine manufacturer has any such waiver from the FTC,
I checked.....so:
If Polaris SAYS, and they obviously do, that you MUST use Polaris'
brand of oil in the boat in order to keep your warranty from being
voided....they MUST GIVE YOU FREE OIL UNDER THEIR BRAND NAME FOR THE
LIFE OF THE PRODUCT! YOU are one lucky guy!
Now you see why I can't believe they are THAT stupid. Lawyers go
through owner's manuals as if they were looking at the constitution of
a new country for loopholes! SeaDoo tried to pull this crap and
backpedalled to TC-Wsomething (not TC-W3). This is all a ploy and
pure bullshit. I still have the SeaDoo brochure that shows two
engines....one using GENUINE SeaDOO oil that ran for thousands of
hours with no wear, it doesn't even look like they ran it.....which we
all know IS bullshit. Then a second engine that looks like they
poured gravel into and ran it with the cylinder walls all scored up
and just gouged to hell. That's what was supposed to happen if you
DARED to use anything but $30/gallon TC from Doo. More lies.
I'd call Polaris and give them your name and address. Ask 'em for 5
cases of free oil to get you started for this year. Then, have them
send you 5 cases every year until 2020, automatically. You can always
call 'em to get more if you run out.....they OWE IT TO YOU!
larry.....It's not just a good idea, it's FEDERAL LAW!
If they have any questions, send them to the FTC BUSINESSMAN'S MANUAL
of the law.....EVERYONE should read this manual to find out what is
due them!
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty/index.htm
Click on the front page to open it to the table of contents. It's a
big book, but I'm SURE they wouldn't mind if you FAXED it to
them....(c;
Larry W4CSC
bought so you can be reimbursed.....(c;
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:55:09 -0700, "Sam D." <blue...@greenheart.com>
wrote:
>
Kelly Matchett
>I used to use Quaker State Synthetic that I bought at Wal-Mart, but they
>no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I now
>use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had any
>problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
>much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
>Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
>somewhere?
I seem to remember the manual giving a little more leeway.
Anyway, I was wondering if you've ever seen the results of the P
Synthetic. I tried the straight Pennzoil and after pulling the heads
after the first gallon, I didn't like the carbon build up compared to
the Polaris regular. I always use Pennzoil in my vehicles when I, uh,
have to pay for my oil changes. But I didn't like the looks of the
regular so didn't try the synth.
Kelly
Kelly Matchett
>Anyway, I just purchased a gallon of the Polaris 2-cycle oil (not the
>synthetic) and even the container has no reference to the oil's description
>(such as TCW-3 ) or its specs. So they are saying you must use their brand
>of oil while witholding the only information that would allow you to make a
>comparison with other available oils. The cost of the Polaris oil was $14.95
>which is far from outrageous but my concern was not the price but about the
>lack of ready availability. The nearest Polaris dealer that was open today
>was a 38 mile round trip from my house and they only had one gallon in
>stock.
Like I said in the previous message, the regular Polaris oil burns much
cleaner than the regular Pennzoil, with no noticeable wear in a gallon's
use (damn, I hope so!). For this one reason, use it over the Penn
regular. I just don't know if it's better than the Penn Synthetic. I've
been using Yamalube, but haven't pulled the heads yet. I think I'll go
do that now...
Kelly
Kelly Matchett
>Now you see why I can't believe they are THAT stupid. Lawyers go
>through owner's manuals as if they were looking at the constitution of
>a new country for loopholes!
They were in this case. I though it read differently, but here it is:
Page 29 of Polaris 2000 Universal Watercraft manual.
"The use of non-recommended fuel or oil could result in engine component
and fuel system deterioration and will void your warranty." No reference
to oil requirement.
Page30 "Use only Polaris Premium 2-cycle oil or Polaris Premium Gold
Synthetic 2-cycle oil.
No other mention until a few paragraphs later when it states: " The use
of unrecommended oil could result in engine damage or poor performance.
It will also void your warranty."
I never caught it before. However dumb it is though, you won't be
getting any cases of oil. If this were pressed, and you won, you'd be
tailoring it to the dealership for them to top it off each time you ran
low. I'll buy my own, thank you!
Kelly
Tom Howlin
> > no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I now
> > use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had any
> > problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
> > much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
> > Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
> > somewhere?
> >
> It's really emphatic about only using Polaris oil.
>
> synthetic) and even the container has no reference to the oil's description
> (such as TCW-3 ) or its specs. So they are saying you must use their brand
> of oil while witholding the only information that would allow you to make a
> comparison with other available oils. The cost of the Polaris oil was $14.95
> which is far from outrageous but my concern was not the price but about the
> lack of ready availability. The nearest Polaris dealer that was open today
> was a 38 mile round trip from my house and they only had one gallon in
> stock.
Sam,
Everyone wants to debate whether or not Polaris can get away with this
rather than answering your question. Any TCW-3 rated oil will be equal
to, and compatible with, the Polaris mineral oil. The synthetic is a
whole different story. I love the Polaris synthetic and saw the SAE
studies on it when it was introduced several years ago. It received
some of the best ratings in their test but you should never mix
synthetics with other synthetics or with mineral oils unless the
manufacturer has specifically stated it is compatible (i.e. Lube-Tech,
who makes Polaris oil has stated unequivocally that the synthetic and
mineral based Polaris oils are compatible). Personally, I think the
Polaris oil burns cleaner than brand x but would never worry about using
another TCW-3 in a pinch. It's always a good idea to pick and oil and
stay with it for the duration, even if its the cheapo stuff from
Walmart. But, if your out and can't find the Polaris mineral oil, use
another high quality oil and you'll be fine. By the way, we were told
by Lube-Tech that the reason the TCW-3 rating isn't on OEM oils anymore
is because they "so far exceed the TCW-3 ratings that it isn't
relevant". I told them BS, they've removed the rating so that the
consumer can't determine what an equivalent oil is - pure marketing BS.
Hope this answers your original question and now Larry can resume his
legal ramblings - take it away counselor.
Tom
Ultra Man
the high performance Kawi oil and the pen is much cleaner buring.
Kerry
Tom Howlin <tom...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:396141...@erols.com...
SL(SeaLion)
SL750 that I was running it in.
Kelly Matchett wrote:
>
> "SL(SeaLion)" <zol...@gte.net> wrote:
>
> >I used to use Quaker State Synthetic that I bought at Wal-Mart, but they
> >no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I now
> >use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had any
> >problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
> >much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
> >Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
> >somewhere?
>
AassRippingdoo
>I recently had an opportunity to compare the pezoil 100% synthect against
>the high performance Kawi oil and the pen is much cleaner buring.
>Kerry
>Tom Howlin <tom...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:396141...@erols.com...
>> Sam D. wrote:
>> >
>> > SL(SeaLion) <zol...@gte.net> wrote in message
>> > news:3960CF9A...@gte.net...
>
When I switched from the Quaker State
to the new Penzoil synthetic they looked
like the same stuff. Color and all.
Ben
MR-HPT
uncharted waters. Who knows best how to protect their power plant? Some yahoo
who has no idea what he is talking about? Or manufacture who invest at least $
120,000 to test lubricants.
How stupid one can be to invest lump of money on fine peace of machinery and
then screw it up by listening to laud mouth "experts " who have no idea what
they talking about.
When in warranty use manufacturer suggested product, after that you on your own.
Engine parts and materials very in designs, hardness and composition. It takes
time study and elaborate testing equipment to evaluate product to meat SAE
standards. It is best to keep your mouth shot regarding personal evaluations.
What works for one, can and many times dose result in disaster to another.
George Ski HPT Sport USA
http://www.hpt-sport.com
Ultra Man wrote:
> I recently had an opportunity to compare the pezoil 100% synthect against
> the high performance Kawi oil and the pen is much cleaner buring.
> Kerry
> Tom Howlin <tom...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:396141...@erols.com...
> > Sam D. wrote:
> > >
> > > SL(SeaLion) <zol...@gte.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3960CF9A...@gte.net...
> > > > I used to use Quaker State Synthetic that I bought at Wal-Mart, but
> they
> > > > no longer carry it. It has been replaced by Penzoil Synthetic and I
> now
> > > > use this oil. In the past I have used regular TCW3 oil and never had
> any
> > > > problems. The Penzoil is $20 a gallon at Wal-Mart. I don't know how
> > > > much the Polaris Synthetic is, but I imagine quite a bit more than the
> > > > Penzoil Synthetic. Are you sure the maual doesn't say "or equivalent"
> > > > somewhere?
> > > >
Larry W4CSC
wrote:
>
>Like I said in the previous message, the regular Polaris oil burns much
>cleaner than the regular Pennzoil, with no noticeable wear in a gallon's
>use (damn, I hope so!). For this one reason, use it over the Penn
>regular. I just don't know if it's better than the Penn Synthetic. I've
>been using Yamalube, but haven't pulled the heads yet. I think I'll go
>do that now...
>Kelly
>
Yamalube is Chevron, last time I checked. Without the extra middlemen
jacking up the price, Chevron will be cheaper. It's not synthetic,
it's just TC-W3......from the lowest bidder, I'd bet.
You're all so funny. Do you REALLY think an OEM is going to use some
very expensive, special oil that will make his product run forever so
you never need to come back in to buy another one? Do you REALLY
think an OEM is going to cut off his profit by buying oil from anyone
but the LOWEST BIDDER in the oil business? How naive!
Look at your boat! Do you think the OEM bought all those parts that
keep breaking, falling off, failing, the plastic pumps, the chinzy
fittings, from anyone but the LOWEST BIDDER of those parts? How
naive, indeed......
larry....Pumped out of the ground in Saudi Arabia, refined in W
Africa, sold to a broker in Houston who resold it to a broker in
Dallas, sold to Yamaha because his bid was $1.29 a case less when
packed by a bottler in Kansas.....delivered to your dealer who doubled
the price before he shelved it for you. Reality check?
Anyone see the Yamaha oil refinery? What's their oil lab look like?
What's the lab's phone number? No? Wonder why?
Larry W4CSC
wrote:
>>
>>I recently had an opportunity to compare the pezoil 100% synthect against
>>the high performance Kawi oil and the pen is much cleaner buring.
>>Kerry
>>Tom Howlin <tom...@erols.com> wrote in message
>>news:396141...@erols.com...
>>> Sam D. wrote:
>>> >
>>> > SL(SeaLion) <zol...@gte.net> wrote in message
>>> > news:3960CF9A...@gte.net...
>>> > > I used to use Quaker State Synthetic that I bought at Wal-Mart, but
>>
>
>When I switched from the Quaker State
>to the new Penzoil synthetic they looked
>like the same stuff. Color and all.
> Ben
Probably from the same refinery in W Africa or Aruba.....
Larry W4CSC
>Do you have any idea what it takes to do lubricity test? You guys trolling in
>uncharted waters. Who knows best how to protect their power plant? Some yahoo
>who has no idea what he is talking about? Or manufacture who invest at least $
>120,000 to test lubricants.
>How stupid one can be to invest lump of money on fine peace of machinery and
>then screw it up by listening to laud mouth "experts " who have no idea what
>they talking about.
>When in warranty use manufacturer suggested product, after that you on your own.
>Engine parts and materials very in designs, hardness and composition. It takes
>time study and elaborate testing equipment to evaluate product to meat SAE
>standards. It is best to keep your mouth shot regarding personal evaluations.
>What works for one, can and many times dose result in disaster to another.
>George Ski HPT Sport USA
>http://www.hpt-sport.com
>
Horseshit, George. They don't spend a dime to test lubricants, any
more than they spend money to test all that other crap that's made so
cheap in the boats.
All this crap comes from the LOWEST BIDDER, including the oil, to
MAXIMIZE PROFITS for the manufacturer, dealer and everyone else in the
money stream, even a few investors. If it wasn't true, the damned
boat would be built like a Hatteras and noone here could afford to buy
one......
larry.....Look at the PRODUCT, people! See all that money they just
POURED into making it last 20 years? No? You mean they want it to
last just until the warranty runs out??!!
Larry W4CSC
might catch some FTC bureaucrat who didn't get any last night and
wanted to get even with someone, today. To let it slide is to admit
defeat. The law is very clear, whether Tom Howlin and the other
dealers want you to think about it or not......
It's against the law.
larry
On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:24:37 -0500, Kelly Matchett <fla...@wcnet.net>
wrote:
>W4...@lostonthe.net (Larry W4CSC) wrote:
Bill O'Neal
Tell that to Phil Cohen, Sam Spade, Bruce Brahms and the rest of the guys
who work in the testing dept. at Sea Doo. They spend endless hours, testing
every piece that goes onto a SD watercraft.
I am sure that they would be the first to tell you that they could use a
bigger budget and more help, but to say that nothing gets tested and
everything goes to the lowest bidder is just pure BS.
--
Bill O'Neal
www.watercraftmagic.com
Larry W4CSC <W4...@lostonthe.net> wrote in message
news:94F7548F0645FA8C.A99CB042...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:13:39 -0500, MR-HPT <hpts...@apex.net> wrote:
>
> >Do you have any idea what it takes to do lubricity test? You guys
trolling in
> >uncharted waters. Who knows best how to protect their power plant? Some
yahoo
> >who has no idea what he is talking about? Or manufacture who invest at
least $
> >120,000 to test lubricants.
> >How stupid one can be to invest lump of money on fine peace of machinery
MR-HPT
testing lab. These laboratories test avery product. All blenders belong to
and get latest information from same source. And they do pay big money for
blending and testing data. I do not know of any manufacturer who would not be
interested in protecting their product. If you think that in warranty
replacements are cheaper then quality lubricant you must be insane.
I have done many test engines for one of the best testing facility in Chicago
for many years, and I also personally know the man who formulates ALL of the
latest and greatest products. There is no such thing as bed oil now days.
Only miss informed and abusive customers. For detailed information on testing
and prices, call my friend John Skuzinski at Auto Research Lab in Chicago.
Tel # 708-563-0900
And if you need to blend your own oil. Call me at 270-898-2617 I will arrange
meeting for you with top man at Amoco Research Center in Chicago who
formulated 99.99% of lubricants on this planet in past 25 years, which
includes top dog Amsoil. Mobil 1, and Yamalube which you claim to be familiar
with.
Regards
Larry W4CSC wrote:
MR-HPT
self.
I do not appreciate crap like that, not one bit. I invested my entire life in
learning, testing and protecting little fallow who has no money to waist on expensive
mistakes.
There is no such thing as bed lubricants now days. There may be some of the wall home
brewed crap which you seem to know about, but manufacturer is very much interested in
protecting their customers and their product. Bed advice is worst then no advice.
Keep it up to date, or leave this delicate subject alone. To those that are
interested in warranty engine protection, my advice is. FALLOW MANUFACTURER
SUGGESTIONS. Believe me, with today's testing techniques, if they wish they can
identify which brand of oil was used in your machine. If one thinks that manufacturer
hire unqualified personnel one must be very stupid indeed.
Larry W4CSC wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:13:39 -0500, MR-HPT <hpts...@apex.net> wrote:
>
> >Do you have any idea what it takes to do lubricity test? You guys trolling in
> >uncharted waters. Who knows best how to protect their power plant? Some yahoo
> >who has no idea what he is talking about? Or manufacture who invest at least $
> >120,000 to test lubricants.
> >How stupid one can be to invest lump of money on fine peace of machinery and
> >then screw it up by listening to laud mouth "experts " who have no idea what
> >they talking about.
> >When in warranty use manufacturer suggested product, after that you on your own.
> >Engine parts and materials very in designs, hardness and composition. It takes
> >time study and elaborate testing equipment to evaluate product to meat SAE
> >standards. It is best to keep your mouth shot regarding personal evaluations.
> >What works for one, can and many times dose result in disaster to another.
> >George Ski HPT Sport USA
> >http://www.hpt-sport.com
> >
>
MR-HPT
abiding citizen who frightens avery one with LAW. How about making peaceful
resolution?
GJG
Larry W4CSC wrote:
> Kelly, go to www.ftc.gov and fill in the form. You never know, you
> might catch some FTC bureaucrat who didn't get any last night and
> wanted to get even with someone, today. To let it slide is to admit
> defeat. The law is very clear, whether Tom Howlin and the other
> dealers want you to think about it or not......
>
> It's against the law.
> larry
>
Larry W4CSC
<Water...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Larry,
>Tell that to Phil Cohen, Sam Spade, Bruce Brahms and the rest of the guys
>who work in the testing dept. at Sea Doo. They spend endless hours, testing
>every piece that goes onto a SD watercraft.
If they tested it so well, I'm very surprised that they spend so much
time sitting outside the shop with blown engines, water ingestion,
detonation, destroyed bearings/mounts/pumps/shafts/couplers, common
body parts that fall off, crack, don't fit, don't close. Isn't anyone
listening to the test department any more than they are the CUSTOMERS?
>
>I am sure that they would be the first to tell you that they could use a
>bigger budget and more help, but to say that nothing gets tested and
>everything goes to the lowest bidder is just pure BS.
>
>--
>Bill O'Neal
They're not your custom race boats. They're just another crappy
product to sell to an unsuspecting public. Anyone seeing the posts on
this newsgroup that represent .001% of the PWC users can see that.
larry
Larry W4CSC
>Larry I have no idea what you up to, but what ever it is you best keep it to your
>self.
>I do not appreciate crap like that, not one bit. I invested my entire life in
>learning, testing and protecting little fallow who has no money to waist on expensive
>mistakes.
That's the second time you've told me to shut up, George. We don't do
that in my country. This isn't Europe, you know......
Larry.....Oil comes from oil companies. ALL companies buy from the
lowest bidder of product that meets certain specifications. TC-W3 is
the specification for marine two-stroke oil. All this sales hype to
get $30 a gallon out of the "little fallow" is a bunch of crap.
Larry W4CSC
>Larry are you from Tennessee or Arizona? This group dos not need another LAW
>abiding citizen who frightens avery one with LAW. How about making peaceful
>resolution?
>GJG
>
The law is very clear, George. If you specify that I have to use only
NGK spark plugs in my weedeater, you must give the plugs to me for the
life of the product. The peaceful resolution is for manufacturers to
come clean with this "specialize product" bullshit they are using to
rip off the customers. The SeaDoo sales brochure showing an engine
that had been run with gravel inside it to try to FUD (fear,
uncertainty and doubt) the customers into buying $30/gallon dino oil
is one of my best laughs.
larry
MR-HPT
what you posting. It sounds like you are intelligent person, but you have nasty
disposition regarding manufacturer. No doubt there are problems in this word. But there
are also many people who are doing great job. Nothing is written in stone, in mechanics,
period. Larry your statement is not politically correct I'm US citizen, and I do not care
what happens in Europe. 18 years of hunger and starvation in my teens, is more then I care
to remember.
GJG
Sam D.
question. You've thoroughly answered my question and provided a great deal
of useful information.
Sam D. <blue...@greenheart.com> wrote in message
news:Mc385.1421$p8.2...@newt.tstonramp.com...
> I purchased a new Polaris Virage. The Polaris owner's manual contains the
> following language regarding oil usage:
>
> "Use only Polaris 2-cycle oil or Polaris Premium Gold Synthetic 2-cycle
oil.
> The use of unrecommended oil could result in engine damage or poor
> performance. It will also void your warranty."
>
SL(SeaLion)
Oil or TCW3 Rated Oil" on the sticker. It has the same 700cc engine as
the Virage. Id on't know why it isn't worded this way anymore?