Why 24 Hours for Epoxy Setup
buck
Epoxy that takes 24 hours to setup? I realize that there are other epoxies
on the market that set up quicker but all the big name club makers still are
preaching the slow 24 hour epoxies...... What's up with that??
-curious
Dave Clary
There was an interesting episode of "What's In The Bag" last night on TGC where
they showed tour practice days, and the pros' interaction with the OEM tour
vans. They sure as hell weren't using 24 hour epoxy because they were
delivering clubs to the range within a couple hours of taking orders.
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx
Home: http://davidclary.com
Golf Diary: http://davidclary.com/golfdiary.htm
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Alan Sandoval
"buck" <nottoda...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:b8642$40c6708e$4503c8e9$23...@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
Simple. Quick cure epoxies get that way by having a "hot" curing process.
Fine for gluing things back together when you break mom's favorite vase, but
not so good when considerations other than simple adhesion come into play.
The field of adhesives is incredibly complicated, always go with industry
standards. They put lots of bucks into research so you don't have to. If
you need more information I'm sure someone here will come back with charts,
spread sheets, etc, but to me, I simply go with people I trust, who tell me
slow cure is best. I'm guessing slow cure makes for a better mechanical
adhesion, and a more stable adhesive.
If you want to experiment, get some five minute epoxy and try it out!
I made repairs on epoxy windsurfing boards, which, of course, are a LOT
different than golf clubs, and sometimes took a LOT of expoxy on a single
repair. Some of the repairs got, literally, so hot I thought the board was
going to burn. I'd stay away from quick curing epoxies for anything
important. They seem very volitile.
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buck
24 hour stuff. I'm not suggesting 5 minute epoxy but there are lots of golf
epoxies utilizing 2-3 hour setups. I suspect the 24 hour epoxy people and
the retail golf shops have a good thing going and wouldn't be suprised that
statistics show that the customer now has to return to the golf shop one
more time (24 hours later). And if you are back in the golf shop again you
might as well buy something.... hmmmmmmmmmm (very interesting). Follow the
money trail.
"Alan Sandoval" <alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote in message
news:40c674f4$1...@127.0.0.1...
Alan Sandoval
> Alan..... that's my point.... it's 2004 and they still continue to use the
> 24 hour stuff. I'm not suggesting 5 minute epoxy but there are lots of
golf
> epoxies utilizing 2-3 hour setups. I suspect the 24 hour epoxy people and
> the retail golf shops have a good thing going and wouldn't be suprised
that
> statistics show that the customer now has to return to the golf shop one
> more time (24 hours later). And if you are back in the golf shop again
you
> might as well buy something.... hmmmmmmmmmm (very interesting). Follow
the
> money trail.
No offense buck, but you asked a question, and then you answered it
yourself? I simply chimed in with my limited knowledge of epoxy.
I sure don't want to turn a discussion of epoxy characteristics into the
possibly nefarious marketing tactics of various retail outlets. If people
can't visit their local retailer without buying something, that's their
problem. I hope some chemical engineer golfer who frequents this group will
post the real deal as far as epoxies. I was always taught, the longer the
cure, the better. I cannot back that up with any expertise other than
personal experience.
On another topic, I played yesterday with a pick-up group, and one of the
guys simply went ballistic whenever he hit a bad shot. Tossed clubs, hit
the ground, made a total ass of himself. And this guy had to be at least 70
yrs old! It wouldn't have been so bad if he had a 'few' bad shots, but NO.
Every shot he made was bad.
It's got to get better. Lest we forget, it's simply a game, where we play
against the toughest competitor, ourselves.
Best wishes,
Alan
t0ph3r
> Alan..... that's my point.... it's 2004 and they still continue to use the
> 24 hour stuff. I'm not suggesting 5 minute epoxy but there are lots of
golf
> epoxies utilizing 2-3 hour setups. I suspect the 24 hour epoxy people and
> the retail golf shops have a good thing going and wouldn't be suprised
that
> statistics show that the customer now has to return to the golf shop one
> more time (24 hours later). And if you are back in the golf shop again
you
> might as well buy something.... hmmmmmmmmmm (very interesting). Follow
the
> money trail.
>
>
Oh but they do make 5 minute epoxy for assembling golf clubs. Golfsmith
part # 9096 - Quick Epoxy. Working time 3 - 5 minutes.
fish
but i'd suspect that longer chains of something can happen when the cure is
slow.
In boat building, we use a variety of epoxies. The strong ones are slower.
There are multiple benefits to a slower batch. One seems to be strength,
but the other main reason is to get the working time in a batch, so that you
have the time to put a full set (or multiple sets) together. Five minute
glue has about a two minute working time, before it starts to go off on you.
Even the five minute epoxies don't have their full strength for some number
of hours.
Mike Dalecki
I use it because...it's supposed to be the best way to do it.
Quick-cure epoxy has a reputation of failing. Not the first time, but
at some point. I don't know how much of that is bad assembly or bad
mixing of the epoxy, but in my limited use of quick-cure, it's always
worked fine.
I wanted to test a reshaft of my 3-wood a couple days ago (steel shaft)
and also made up a Golfsmith Quickstrike for myself.
Being the impatient sort, and since I was golfing about 2 hours after
putting them together, I used quick-cure epoxy.
I didn't give either what I'd consider a heavy test (hit both several
times, that was it), but in neither case was there any indication of
problems. I turned and finished the ferrules; if there was any problem
with the epoxy, I would have seen a gap between ferrule and hosel, and
there was no evidence of failure at all.
Yesterday I pulled the shafts and rebuilt them with the 24-hour epoxy.
Why? Because I don't want to risk it, and at some point, perhaps I sell
them to someone else. And I don't want to have to wonder if that
quick-cure epoxy will hold with the clubs in someone else's hands.
Would that quick-cure epoxy stay as effective if I stored the clubs in a
trunk that reached 160* after which I pulled the clubs out and hit them?
I don't know. And I don't know if it will hold as well after a high
number of repeated shots. (Though in fairness, a few years back I hit
a 3-wood that was assembled with quick cure, hit it for months, and had
no problem).
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the pro-van clubmakers use this
with the understanding that it's not permanent, but it allows them to
get a club in the hands of a pro quickly--just like I used it to test
out a couple of clubs myself over the weekend.
Now, having said all that, it's clear that there are some new epoxies on
the market that supposedly offer much faster curing time while
presumably retaining the necessary strength.
Golfsmith offers a bunch of different epoxies. There's the Tour Van
epoxy, about which Golfsmith says "great for jobs requiring a strong
bond in a hurry." It sets in 5 minutes. I believe it does that--but I
also don't believe it's meant to be a permanent epoxy. I think it's
designed for emergency repairs, something a tour pro would absolutely
need. ($8.95 for 1.5 oz syringe).
Contrast that with their "Clubmaker 30/60 Epoxy," which they advertise
as so: "Super strong formula offers the perfect combination of working
time and set-up time: 25-30 minute working time, and sets to playing
strength in about an hour (depending on air conditions). Perfect for
assembling a full set of clubs; cures black." ($9.95 for a syringe,
which looks to be also 1.5 oz).
On the face of it, little reason not to use the 30/60 epoxy. It
certainly would speed things up for me, as I could build a club in the
morning and ship it in the afternoon, whereas now I expect an overnight
cure.
If there's a downside here, it's the price, I suppose. It's not major,
not when you amortize it over a number of golf clubs, but you're buying
1.5 oz of 30/60 epoxy with these syringes for $9.95 whereas you can buy
8 oz of regular epoxy for $7.95. The equivalent amount of 30/60 would
be $44 or so.
What Golfsmith implies is that you can shaft about 15 clubs per ounce of
mixed epoxy. That's conservative, IMO. I can get double that, and
perhaps more. So the cost per club with the 30/60 isn't all that
high--maybe 25 cents per club, but I'd bet less than that. Depends on
whether you're making them one at a time or sets at a time.
The other thing I don't know about it is the breakdown temperature. In
order to pull graphite shafts and save them, you need an epoxy that will
break down at a lower temperature than the graphite matrix will melt.
Don't know about that from the Golfsmith catalog, and they don't mention
it, whereas under the blurb for their regular epoxy they make a point of
noting that it breaks down at 250*F. If it doesn't break down at a low
temperature, that would be a dealbreaker for me. But it's hard to
imagine it would be much different.
More than you wanted as a response, i'm sure. I looked on Shoptalk to
see if I could find a review of 30/60, and was unsuccessful in finding a
discussion of it. Maybe I'll ask and find out.
Mike
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David Laville
wrote:
>In the age of high tech and sophisticated everything why are we still using
Faster curing epoxies are more brittle. Slow cures have a higher
yield stength. 5 minute epoxy may work for a while but the constant
stress of impact will eventually crack the bond.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Simon Hancock
I use the Golfsmith 30/60 black epoxy. Sets in 30 minutes, ready to
play in 60. They advertise it as "favourite of our own repair and
production department". They also sell a 5 minute epoxy. I guess the
24 hour stuff may have a stronger bond, but I've never seen or heard
of a case of a quick bond breaking.
I'm too impatient to wait 24 hours. When new components are waiting
for me at home, I'll trim and epoxy before I go to bed, get up at 6,
put the grip on before breakfast and have the club on the first tee
by 7am!
Rick Chiavaroli
with it.
Tour Set epoxy combines the strength of long-cure epoxies with the
conveniences of shorter cure epoxies. The Pro Set has a gel time of
approximately 12 minutes, which allows for more clubs to be shafted (even a
complete set ) than other quick set epoxies. Cures to playing strength in
60-90 minutes, depending on temperature. Available in 50 ml syringe that
provides a precise 1:1 mix and is re-sealable. Also available in 4 oz.
squeeze bottles
Rick
"buck" <nottoda...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:b8642$40c6708e$4503c8e9$23...@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
buck
"Simon Hancock" <hancoc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fc03caf7.04060...@posting.google.com...
buck
light-hearted.... sorry if you were offended... It was not my intention.
-buck
"Alan Sandoval" <alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote in message
news:40c68701$1...@127.0.0.1...
buck
the quick setting epoxy and give it a try. Please don't stand in front of
me when I swing....
-Off to the course!
Mudbunny
> I sure don't want to turn a discussion of epoxy characteristics into the
> possibly nefarious marketing tactics of various retail outlets. If people
> can't visit their local retailer without buying something, that's their
> problem. I hope some chemical engineer golfer who frequents this group will
> post the real deal as far as epoxies. I was always taught, the longer the
> cure, the better. I cannot back that up with any expertise other than
> personal experience.
Not a chemical engineer, but a lurking chemist, will that do?? <grin>
My best guess would be what someone mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Length of the chains.
Assuming that epoxies are formed by similar manners as plastics, there
are two possible ways the chains that make up the epoxy can be formed.
A couple of really long ones, or a lot of really short ones.
The longer-curing epoxies probably form a couple of really long
chains. The insertion of the new blocks to extend the chain will only
happen at a couple places (typically one insertion point per chain)
and thus it takes a while for all of the blocks (liquid epoxy) to be
used up.
The shorter-curing epoxies probably form lots of short chains. Thus,
there are a lot of insertion points, and the liquid epoxy is used up.
Marcel
David Geesaman
> Alan..... that's my point.... it's 2004 and they still continue to use the
> 24 hour stuff. I'm not suggesting 5 minute epoxy but there are lots of
golf
> epoxies utilizing 2-3 hour setups. I suspect the 24 hour epoxy people and
> the retail golf shops have a good thing going and wouldn't be suprised
that
> statistics show that the customer now has to return to the golf shop one
> more time (24 hours later). And if you are back in the golf shop again
you
> might as well buy something.... hmmmmmmmmmm (very interesting). Follow
the
> money trail.
Is there anything wrong with 24 hour setups? I mean seriously, these
are golf clubs, not wrenches used on spacewalks. It's not WORTH engineering
a 'better' adhesive, when there will be very little ROI.
It reminds me of working for an aerospace company - we were building
airbags to cushion a mars lander (yes, you probably read about it in the
news). The company hiring us gave us a weight limit based on their
estimates for the required materials. They completely forgot the weight of
seams, and this product was to be completely constructed of fabric!! Our
experience showed that 10-25% of the total would end up being seams, and
they refused to believe such a thing couldn't be engineered around. Our
head engineer joked that they mistakenly used the 'superglue' assumption
that we could just hold the edges together and use infinitely strong and
negligibly light glue. They eventually learned.
Just a friendly reminder that even the highest technology products are
still based on bread-and-butter techniques and tools that are nearly as
optimized as they'll ever be.
Dave
Mike Dalecki
I agree with what you're saying, Dave, but in this case, there *is* more
than a little ROI with using a quick-cure epoxy with the same strength
characteristics as the 24-hour kind.
I spoke w/ Golfsmith's tech support dept and they said that the 30/60
epoxy has the same strength when cured (1 hour cure) as the 24-hour
epoxy does. While it's much more expensive (about $6 per ounce compared
to < $1 per ounce for the 24-hour kind), there are situations in which
it matters.
If someone asks me in the morning to build a single club and wants to be
able to take it out after lunch, the quick-cure is the only option. I
won't use the really-quick-cure epoxy for that, simply because I don't
really trust it in the long run. Having a head fall off is not a sign
of quality control in most people's eyes, I'd wager. :)
And so, it's either "No you can't have it today" which means they might
turn elsewhere or might not come back, or use the higher-cost epoxy
which will get them what they want.
And even though the cost of the 30/60 is much higher per ounce, *per
club* it's not all that much. Even by Golfsmith's estimates, you'd
expect to get 15 clubs built from an ounce of epoxy. I'll be
conservative and assume the 1.5 ounces will only make 20 clubs. As the
math is done, that's only 50 cents per club for epoxy. On a $200 or
$300 club, that's peanuts.
As a practical matter as a clubmaker, I'd very much like to be able to
accelerate the process. I'd like to be able to build *and* ship a set
in one day, which this 30/60 supposedly will allow me to do (yes, I've
ordered some). From a business standpoint, getting done sooner, getting
clubs to a customer in a more timely fashion, or even not having to
spread the build over two days while waiting for epoxy to cure, all are
good reasons to prefer a faster-setting epoxy, SO LONG AS IT PROVIDES
THE SAME BOND AS THE 24-HOUR KIND.
If this stuff works as advertised, I'll probably switch to it. It cures
black (right now, I need to color my epoxy with a black paste
dispersion, a step I'd just as soon be able to skip), which also is an
advantage.
And honestly, Dave, if someone wants a club and I can tell them that
they could have it inside 3 hours, isn't that worth the 50 cents per
club? I think so.
David Geesaman
"Mike Dalecki" <mi...@dalecki.net> wrote in message
news:2iu07eF...@uni-berlin.de...
Those are all very good points. I think the 30/60 is very well and
good, but to try and go beyond that threshold (as in less than 1 hour) will
be a land of diminishing returns. If you're using strictly 24-hour stuff,
the switch to 30/60 is well justified. Even if there is a strength
tradeoff, at least the option exists.
Personally, I don't buy into the person who suggested 'make 2 visits
instead of one' as a valid business tactic. I imagine your most satisfied
customers have the least interaction as necessary to get it done right. And
since your productivity is quickly eaten by people taking your time
browsing, talking, visiting, it actually can hurt.
Dave
Mike Dalecki
I agree--there's just little to be gained from going further, though I
wouldn't turn it down if it existed. In fact, the Tour Van epoxy is
supposed to be that sort of thing. Working time is too short to build a
set, so it's only good for a single club or repair.
> Personally, I don't buy into the person who suggested 'make 2 visits
> instead of one' as a valid business tactic. I imagine your most satisfied
> customers have the least interaction as necessary to get it done right. And
> since your productivity is quickly eaten by people taking your time
> browsing, talking, visiting, it actually can hurt.
I didn't buy it either. Besides, if you're talking about building a
club from scratch, or even a set, they'd have to come back anyway unless
they wanted to wait around an hour or three. Doing things in a hurry is
a recipe for disaster, and I'd hate to be pushed into something like
that. I don't generally want people looking over my shoulder, not that
I have anything to hide, but just that it's disconcerting.
A couple years I had a newspaper reporter doing a story on me, and I was
showing her how I removed a clubhead from a shaft. Had one I was doing
as a reshaft, and so I heated the ferrule and began to cut it off. She
was taking a pic of me doing this and as I was slicing it off, she
fumbled with the camera, almost dropping it. Her fumble caused me to
flinch, and the utility knife cut through the ferrule and I gouged the
paint of the clubhead. Didn't hurt the playability any, but it was a
cosmetic defect that I couldn't allow. I had to replace the clubhead
($120-worth). I still have it as a demo, but it cost me dearly to have
someone there watching.
So I don't usually allow that, for good reason. :)
Mike
>
> Dave
Rick Nelson
couple of hours. Anyone have experience with these yet?
Thanks,
Rick
Lou wrote:
> I know this is an old thread, but lately, I've noticed that the
> "quick-cure" epoxies take a lot less heat to break than the 24 hour
> types. I use 24 hour when I'm doing multiple sets ( longer gel time)
> and when a customer doesn't need then overnight. I've never had a
> failure with the quick cure, but I had a gut feeling that the 24 hour
> is more durable.
>
> Regards,
> Lou
Mark A
> Yes I've used them, but you're supposed to have a very close fit
> between the shaft and the hosel. I always sand the inside of the
> hosel and prepare the shaft tip, so there's rarely a close enough fit
> for me to be sure it will hold. I'm probably overcautious, but I
> never want to suffer the liability and embarrassment of having one of
> my heads go flying down the fairway!
>
> Regards,
> Lou
I have seen that happen quite a several times with people who make their own
clubs. It is embarrassing. When you hit a ball into a water hazard, etc, you
can just tee up again. When your clubhead goes those places, pretty much
have to chase after it.