Questions on graphite shafted drivers
Charles K. Foley
I have been toying with the idea of getting a graphite shafted driver, or
reshafting my current driver with graphite. This past week I saw a number
of Taylor Made drivers that are being closed out at the local pro shop due
to the arrival of Taylor Made's System 2 clubs. The price for a graphite
shafted driver with the same clubhead as my current driver was pretty in-
expensive. I haven't talked to the pro about the club but I wanted to get
the net's opinions about graphite shafts.
The drivers I looked at had Taylor Made 'Flex-Twist' shafts in either stiff
or extra-stiff flexes. I looked in my Golfsmith and Golfworks catalogs to
see if they listed any specs for this shaft but they don't carry these shafts
(unless this is a widely available shaft that Taylor Made has just painted
with their own logo).
Does anyone know what flex point and torque rating these shafts would have?
I consulted Maltbie's Club Making and Repair book regarding graphite shafts.
I had heard that many players choose a graphite shaft stiffness one grade
stiffer than they normally use in steel. Maltbie only refers to this when
reshafting a wood from steel to graphite. Doing this decreases the overall
weight AND swingweight of the club. He mentions that many players want the
same swingweight in the graphite club as in the steel club. They therefore
add weight (usually with lead tape) to the clubhead to bring the swingweight
back up. The resulting club has the same swingweight while still having less
overall weight than the original. It also feels more whippy because now more
weight is concentrated in the head than before so most players use a stiffer
shaft.
Are there other reasons to use a stiffer shaft?
I'd appreciate any other comments people have regarding graphite shafted
woods.
Thanks!
Charles K. Foley, Ph.D.
Cray Research, Inc.
P.O. Box 12746
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 c...@f16.cray.com
--
Charles K. Foley, Ph.D.
Cray Research, Inc.
P.O. Box 12746
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 c...@f16.cray.com
Isaac Kim
y) writes:
>Golfers -
>
>I have been toying with the idea of getting a graphite shafted driver, or
>reshafting my current driver with graphite. This past week I saw a number
>of Taylor Made drivers that are being closed out at the local pro shop due
>to the arrival of Taylor Made's System 2 clubs. The price for a graphite
>shafted driver with the same clubhead as my current driver was pretty in-
>expensive. I haven't talked to the pro about the club but I wanted to get
>the net's opinions about graphite shafts.
>
>The drivers I looked at had Taylor Made 'Flex-Twist' shafts in either stiff
>or extra-stiff flexes. I looked in my Golfsmith and Golfworks catalogs to
>see if they listed any specs for this shaft but they don't carry these shafts
>(unless this is a widely available shaft that Taylor Made has just painted
>with their own logo).
>
>Does anyone know what flex point and torque rating these shafts would have?
The Flex-Twist shaft is made by Aldila, who seems to makes the majority
of graphite shafts (Wilson Firestick, Callaway RCH 60, Ping Karsten 101,
etc). The old Taylor Made Tour Gold graphite shaft was just your basic
Aldila HM-40 painted a slightly different shade of gold. The problem with
using just the HM-40 is that the torque (2.2 degrees) and flex point (mid)
were constant for all the different flexes (Regular, Stiff, Ex-Stiff).
The HM-40 tourque and flex point are OK for stronger golfers, but the
tourque was too low for slower weaker golfers, even with a regular flex.
The idea with the Flex-twist was to change the torque and flex point as the
shaft flex changes (ie. the stiffer the shaft, the higher the flex point
and the smaller the torque). Since this is a proprietary golf shaft, Aldila
will not give out any information over the phone. If I was to make a guess,
I would match the following generic Alidla shafts to the different
Flex-Twist shafts:
Flex-twist Equivalent Flex Torque Wt Clubhead Average
Flex Alidla (Flex) Point (deg) (grams) Speed(mph)* Drive(yds)*
=============================================================================
Ex-Stiff HM-55 (Strong) High 1.6 108+/-4 115+ 250+
HM-50 (Strong) Mid 1.9 106+/-4 115+ 250+
Stiff HM-40 (Firm) Mid 2.2 99+/-4 100-115 230-250
Regular HM-40 (Regular) Low 2.8 82+/-4 85-100 210-230
HM-35 (Regular) Mid 3.1 88+/-4 70-85 190-210
HM-30 (Regular) Mid 3.6 79+/-4 70-85 190-210
*from Alidila Fitting Guide
For comparison, Dynamic Gold steel shafts are:
=============================================================================
X-100 High 2.5 124.17
S-300 High 2.5 123.89
Note about Flex Point: It seems to be a very vague measurement. The guy
at Aldila mentioned that most flex points are determined by static
measurements which are probably much different than the flex point
during a swing. I asked him the difference in inches between a high
flex point and a low flex point and he said: "Anywhere from 2 to 12 inches."
How's that for scientific precision. A person at the Golf Works mentioned
that their definition of flex point is (measured from the bottom tip of the
shaft): Low 5-6 inches; Mid 7-8 inches; High 9-10 inches
>
>I consulted Maltbie's Club Making and Repair book regarding graphite shafts.
>I had heard that many players choose a graphite shaft stiffness one grade
>stiffer than they normally use in steel. Maltbie only refers to this when
>reshafting a wood from steel to graphite. Doing this decreases the overall
>weight AND swingweight of the club. He mentions that many players want the
>same swingweight in the graphite club as in the steel club. They therefore
>add weight (usually with lead tape) to the clubhead to bring the swingweight
>back up. The resulting club has the same swingweight while still having less
>overall weight than the original. It also feels more whippy because now more
>weight is concentrated in the head than before so most players use a stiffer
>shaft.
>
>Are there other reasons to use a stiffer shaft?
According to this guy at Alidila, it is a MYTH that a Stiff graphite shaft
is whipper than a Stiff steel shaft. Ten years ago, this was the case when
graphite technology could only get the minimum torque down to 5 degrees, so
a Stiff graphite shaft would feel alot softer than a Stiff steel shaft.
With this much torque, it was necessary to go to a stiffer graphite shaft
to give you the same stiff feel of steel. Now a days, with the addition of
higher modulus graphite and boron, graphite companies were able to reduce
the torque to a point where it is actually less than torque of a steel
shaft. This will make a Stiff graphite shaft actually feel stiffer than a
Stiff steel shaft. For example, the HM-40 has a torque of 2.2 degrees
which is slightly less the torque of a Dymanmic Gold steel shaft (2.5
degrees). Therefore a Firm (which is Alidla's version of Stiff) HM-40
is probably between a Dynamic Gold S-300 and X-100 and a Strong (which
is Aldila's version of Ex-Stiff) is going to feel slightly stiffer than
the X-100. If you look at HM-55, which has a torque of 1.6 degrees, the
Firm is porbably equivalent to the X-100 and the Strong is one step stiffer
then the X-100. The bottom line is that today, modern technology has made
graphite shafts which are as stiff or stiffer feeling than steel shafts.
Putting a graphite shaft into a steel shafted driver will drop the
swingweight 5 or 6 points, so lead tape or brass pins are added to bring
up the swingweight. I originally had a Langert metal driver with a
Dynamic Gold S-300. I then switched to an MH-40 Firm shaft. I did have
to add some tape to get the weight up, but it never felt too head heavy,
or whipper than the steel shaft (maybe because that HM-40 was stiffer
than the S-300 to start with).
>
>I'd appreciate any other comments people have regarding graphite shafted
>woods.
I originally played with a Cleveland Classic persimmon driver with a
Dynamic Gold X-100 shaft. I never had the Langert metal wood with the
S-300 shaft for a long enough time to tell the difference between the
X-100 and S-300 shaft, because the biggest difference I felt was hitting
a metal head over the persimmon. I then made the switch to the HM-40
graphite. After adding weight to the head, it did feel lighter overall.
I was also happy with the flex (even though it was "only" a Firm). I
don't think my longest drive with the metal-graphite was any longer than
my longest drive with the persimmon-steel. But the metal-graphite seem
to hit a little longer average wise than the persimmon-steel. I stuck
with the metal-graphite for about 3 years. In the middle, I tried to
experiment with an HM-40 Strong in the Langert metal wood. What a mistake.
It was way too stiff. I could not get any distance at all (my average
clubhead speed is 110 mph). I can't image even trying to hit a HM-55
Strong. I slowly started to realize a problem with the lighter
metal-graphite combination. The times when I really wanted to rip a
drive, the lighter weight and larger sweet spot with the metal driver
allowed me to swing alot harder. This resulted in shots that went
further, but also alot further offline. I think this is a basic fault
with a lighter club, it allows you to swing harder. I recently went
back to my persimmon-steel shafted driver. I forgot the great feel of
persimmon. Even though I might have lost a little distance, I feel alot
more in control swinging this combination. I also like the idea of not
having to pick as much sap off my golf balls.
I just recently won a graphite re-shaft in a tournament. My next
experiment will be to put a graphite shaft into a persimmon head.
Should be interesting...
(BTW, in my irons, I have Hogan Apex 5's (Ex-stiff). I played Apex 4's
(Stiff) for a long time, and just recently started to play the 5's. I
think I am about 5 yards shorter with the 5's, but I am alot straighter
and do hit the ball a little lower - which is fine with me).
>
>Thanks!
>
>Charles K. Foley, Ph.D.
>Cray Research, Inc.
>P.O. Box 12746
>Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 c...@f16.cray.com
>--
Isaac (k...@bull.ucsd.edu)
Isaac Kim
>In article <1992Nov30....@alw.nih.gov> c...@f16.cray.com (Charles K. Fole
>y) writes:
>>
>>The drivers I looked at had Taylor Made 'Flex-Twist' shafts in either stiff
>>or extra-stiff flexes. I looked in my Golfsmith and Golfworks catalogs to
>>see if they listed any specs for this shaft but they don't carry these shafts
>>(unless this is a widely available shaft that Taylor Made has just painted
>>with their own logo).
>>
>>Does anyone know what flex point and torque rating these shafts would have?
>
>will not give out any information over the phone. If I was to make a guess,
>I would match the following generic Alidla shafts to the different
>Flex-Twist shafts:
>
>Flex-twist Equivalent Flex Torque Wt Clubhead Average
> Flex Alidla (Flex) Point (deg) (grams) Speed(mph)* Drive(yds)*
>=============================================================================
>Ex-Stiff HM-55 (Strong) High 1.6 108+/-4 115+ 250+
> HM-50 (Strong) Mid 1.9 106+/-4 115+ 250+
>Stiff HM-40 (Firm) Mid 2.2 99+/-4 100-115 230-250
>Regular HM-40 (Regular) Low 2.8 82+/-4 85-100 210-230
> HM-35 (Regular) Mid 3.1 88+/-4 70-85 190-210
> HM-30 (Regular) Mid 3.6 79+/-4 70-85 190-210
>
>*from Alidila Fitting Guide
>
>For comparison, Dynamic Gold steel shafts are:
>=============================================================================
>X-100 High 2.5 124.17
>S-300 High 2.5 123.89
>
Well, I just called Taylor Made and got their specs on the Flex-Twist
shaft:
Flex-twist Flex Torque Wt
Flex Point (deg) (grams)
=======================================
Ex-Stiff High 2.8 98
Stiff Mid-High 3.6 90
Regular Mid-Low 4.0 83
The torque measurements seem alittle high, so I asked the guy about it.
He said that Taylor Made uses a different torque measuring system than
Aldila. It incorporates the whole shaft (including the grip).
This makes for slightly higher torque measurements than Alidila's
measurements. He did not have any idea what the conversion between the two
meaurement systems were though. My guess would be subtract 1.0 degree from
the Taylor Made torques to get the equilvalent Aldila torques (this is
strictly a guess).
If anybody wants more information:
Alidila's number is 1-800-854-2786
Taylor Made's number is 1-800-456-8633
I usually ask for somebody in customer service, and it is a 50/50
chance you will get somebody who knows what he or she is talking about.
Sometimes when I have a more detailed question, I'll just ask for
somebody more technical.
Isaac (k...@bull.ucsd.edu)
T. Jerry Scott
>
>I'd appreciate any other comments people have regarding graphite shafted
>woods.
I have played with both regular and graphite. IN fact, I took same
Taylor Tour Cleek (16 degree) and put a 1 inch longer graphite shaft in
it in place of the original Taylor steel stiff shaft. The bottom line
is that, with the same club face, my distance went up nearly 20 yards.
I did the same with the 19 degree Taylor Tour model and found about a
10-15 yard difference.
Thus, I am a real believer in graphite woods. I am a low handicapper
with a fairly consistent swing and have always hit good fairway woods.
Besides the extra distance, the graphites feel better on good shots and
don't sting or jolt as much on badly hit shots.
I am not thinking of graphiting my 1960 sand wedge, a First Flight
monster, that I bought in 1960 and have been playing with since.
Hopefully, it will feel better on shots and may add 5 yards total to
this shot, which would be nice, since I can only hit it 85 yards now,
and 90 would be nice.
=====================================================================
Thomas J. Scott (aka Dr. J.) Phone: 309-298-1452
Western Illinois University mf...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
John Vander Borght
>In article <1992Nov30....@alw.nih.gov> c...@f16.cray.com (Charles K. Foley) writes:
>>Golfers -
>>
>>I'd appreciate any other comments people have regarding graphite shafted
>>woods.
>I have played with both regular and graphite. IN fact, I took same
>Taylor Tour Cleek (16 degree) and put a 1 inch longer graphite shaft in
>it in place of the original Taylor steel stiff shaft. The bottom line
>is that, with the same club face, my distance went up nearly 20 yards.
I'd think the one inch longer would make a bigger difference than the graphite.
I recently went from a metal headed driver with a 1" over length steel
shaft to a regular length Titanium head Graphite and lost 20 yards (but I'm
more accurate with it.)
I'm sure the length of the club had more effect than the shaft or head
type.
John Vander Borght
jo...@sequent.com
--
"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!"
John Vander Borght
jo...@sequent.com